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Armstrong to be stripped of all Tour de France wins

This topic contains 268 replies, has 49 voices, and was last updated by  jonawebb 1 yr, 3 mos.

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orionz06

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Aug 24 2012 at 4:30pm #

I don’t really get how this continues to go on.


brian j

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Aug 24 2012 at 4:33pm #

I don’t really get how this continues to go on.

This discussion, or the Armstrong case?

If it’s the former, it’s because it’s the internet.

If it’s the latter, it’s because some people just really don’t like Armstrong. I also suspect the whole “defrauding the government” thing while the Postal Service team was around is pushing the government to continue the case.


orionz06

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Aug 24 2012 at 4:52pm #

The Armstrong case.


brian j

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Aug 24 2012 at 7:31pm #

Question: Will USAC/USADA ban Jonathan Vaughters, too, since he just publically admitted to using EPO while a Postie with Armstrong?


mr marvelous

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Aug 24 2012 at 7:43pm #

levi leipheimer admitted to doping and he still races. It seems that if you are likable you get a pass.


Greasefoot

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Aug 24 2012 at 9:06pm #

The USDA is making this decision with no physical evidence. It’s all based hearsay and questionable testimony.

I find it interesting the Amaury Sport Organization that runs the tour and the UCI have not yet officially vacated the tour victories. They have requested more details from the USADA. The UCI backed LA’s failed legal challenges to USADA, it appears they don’t approve of the procedures or methods of the USADA. Is it possible they are not going to recognize the USADA’s decision based on the fact they don’t have any proof or an admission of guilt?


Chris Mayhew

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Aug 24 2012 at 9:28pm #

@Mr Marvelous when did Levi admit? Have a link?


rice rocket

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Aug 24 2012 at 9:32pm #

Is it possible they are not going to recognize the USADA’s decision based on the fact they don’t have any proof or an admission of guilt?

That’s pretty possible.

If you view this through the eyes of the UCI, Armstrong has had hundreds of drug tests and have failed none. That’s like you getting drug tested at work, peeing clean test after test, but some co-worker of yours said “well I saw him do it”.

Also, admitting USADA’s testimony is basically saying “our testing isn’t adequate”, so where does that leave the sport in terms of the UCI’s authority? They need to maintain some semblance of control, whether real or not.


mr marvelous

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Aug 24 2012 at 9:35pm #

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120705/WIRE/120709794


Chris Mayhew

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Aug 24 2012 at 9:39pm #

Thanks.


jonawebb

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Aug 25 2012 at 1:58am #

Look, he failed a test a while ago and then brought a back-dated prescription for the drug. And his stored blood was found to contain EPO (there was no test when he was competing while using it). So it’s simply not true that he never failed a test. It’s just that one way or another, his failed tests never made it into the official record. Until now.


mattre

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Aug 25 2012 at 3:17am #

I’m a testicular cancer survivor, so I probably have a slightly different perspective on this.

Chemo was rough. Mostly it was my badass attitude that got me through it, but more than once during the darker times, I thought about Lance Armstrong, and how his cancer was already in his brain before it was caught, and how he still bounced back and won a shitload of titles afterwards. It really helped to think of him, during the lowest of the lows, and know that afterward I could do anything I wanted so long as I set my mind to it.

Fuck him for being a cheater. Fuck him even harder for being a liar. I can understand the doping…EVERYONE was doping…but he stood there dozens of times and lied to everyone about how he never did anything wrong. Fuck him for that. Fuck him for robbing thousands more of the inspiration I was able to use to get past my lowest points.

I’ve got a bright yellow “Livestrong” shirt someone gave me shortly after I finished chemo. I think I’m going to wipe my ass with it tomorrow and mail it to his foundation’s headquarters.

Fuck Lance Armstrong. Fuck him right in the ear.


bikeygirl

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Aug 25 2012 at 3:35am #


Anonymous

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Aug 25 2012 at 3:37am #

@jonaebb To say so you have to have facts. Do you have them? Or is it whatever you read in newspaper? Notice, I think he doped (I’ve been real close too). But I don’t say “he doped”, I say “I think he doped”. There is a big difference between fact and opinion.


Steven

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Aug 25 2012 at 4:18am #

Look, he failed a test a while ago and then brought a back-dated prescription for the drug.

Is the incident you mean the same one mentioned in this old Velonews article (via Wikipedia):

Throughout his career only one test showed indications of the presence of doping products. In the 1999 Tour, a urine sample showed small traces of cortico-steroids. Armstrong was cleared, however, when his U.S. Postal team, produced a medical certificate showing that he used a cream to ease the pain of a saddle sore. Even that sample, however, was below the levels that would have triggered a positive result at the time.

Or is there a different incident?

If it’s this one, do you think Velonews was wrong in saying it was detected at below the level required for a positive result? Do you disbelieve that he really used a saddle sore product with corticosteroids, or that it accounted for the test result?


Lenny

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Aug 25 2012 at 12:17pm #

I knew Armstrong was a cheat more than a year ago when everyone on his team,(to their credit), admitted to taking steroids.The house of cards fell hard when Floyd Landis got caught and spilled the beans on Lance abd his teammates.All his teammates,with the exception of 2 who took the fifth because they didn’t want to get their good friend Lance in trouble, all admitted to cheating.I used to look up to the guy,but now he make sick!!


stefb

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Aug 25 2012 at 12:22pm #

I didn’t know that corticosteroids treated skin issues. They usually delay wound healing.


salty

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Aug 25 2012 at 2:44pm #

So who gets the wins? Will it end up being like the guy that finished 38th because the other 37 all got caught doping?


brian j

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Aug 25 2012 at 3:15pm #

It isn’t the UCI or the ASO (the organization behind Le Tour) that is stripping Armstrong of his wins–it’s the USADA. I believe it’s up to the UCI to invalidate those victories based on the USADA’s decision, but, as others have pointed out, there’s no benefit in that since nearly every rider on those podiums was dirty.

As for why the USADA still pursued this, I suspect it is retribution, as well as a way to punish LA, since the ban will effect his career as a triathlete.


Greasefoot

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Aug 25 2012 at 4:45pm #

@jonaebb someone posted once that you drive in a car to find the locations playing the Tag-O-Rama game? Based on methods used by the USADA all of your tags should be vacated and you should be banned from playing the game.


jonawebb

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Aug 25 2012 at 5:07pm #

@Greasefoot I’d take it to arbitration.

Also, that was mostly Joan Webb.


helen s

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Aug 25 2012 at 8:09pm #

Not making a statement here, I just thought this was relevant and funny:

http://store.theonion.com/p-5045-cheat-to-win-bracelet.aspx


Steven

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Aug 25 2012 at 8:27pm #

I didn’t know that corticosteroids treated skin issues. They usually delay wound healing.

I thought most of the OTC anti-inflammation and anti-itch skin products were 1% hydrocortisone, a type of corticosteroid. Like this.


mr marvelous

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Aug 25 2012 at 9:54pm #

Over the year athletes have done horrible things yet no one gets such an emotional backlash like Even if you look at this thread people are angry at LA like no other. Bathroom rape, murder, dog fighting, wife beating, assault and so on.

As far as cheating no one cheated like the whole Spygate thing. No one is even close to as angry with the Patriots or asking bill belichick or tom brady to forfeit their superbowls or ban them for life. And we know they cheated.


Vannevar

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Aug 25 2012 at 11:22pm #

The minor fraud of Lance Gunderson is that he cheated to win the Tour de France. It’s a fraud with financial benefit, but it’s not an issue on the scale of, say, the Iranian nuclear program. (edit)

The larger fraud of Lance is that he built a self-serving organization by playing on the emotion of cancer patients and their families.

That’s the bigger issue: cheating to win the Tour, and leveraging that fraud into a bigger game – selling yellow rubber bands to say “I Care” and building an affinity movement with Lance as the Hero.


mr marvelous

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Aug 26 2012 at 12:03am #

@ Vannevar I’m not defending LA because I don’t know 100% if he’s guilty or innocent. I am defending the Livestrong foundation. I would like it to go on with or without LA.

As far as him being more evil than the Patriots are you saying because he started a foundation and Brady never said he cared about anyone but himself. If LA said he never cared would he just be like other forgiven athletes who have done much much more awful things.


Vannevar

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Aug 26 2012 at 12:13am #

hello Mr. Marv, I really have no statement on the relative evil of anybody. Any discussion of “who’s got a bigger wrong?” isn’t of interest.

I am saying that LiveStrong is a scam arranged by a con artist. Like many scams, it may offer some solace to some people in certain situations; that’s how scams work.

No disrespect intended, truly.


mr marvelous

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Aug 26 2012 at 12:16am #

I do understand what you are saying and it makes sense. There was no disrespect.


stefb

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Aug 26 2012 at 12:25am #

Steven, I thought that topical agents have mostly localized effects, and don’t have much systemic effect, but maybe with a saddle sore, a larger amount is absorbed and detectable? I am not a pharmacokinetic expert.


Steven

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Aug 26 2012 at 3:58am #

Me neither. But the article said what they detected was “below the levels that would have triggered a positive result at the time”, so perhaps that’s consistent with just a little getting absorbed?


pearmask

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Aug 26 2012 at 4:17am #

Depends on which topical agent and how much of it you’re using and how long you’re using it. Temporary use of a milder corticosteroid for one saddle sore… ehhh, maybe a teeny, tiny effect that you could detect if you were really trying, but IDK if I buy it in Armstrong’s case. Long-term use of a Group I topical steroid like clobetasol for something like plaque psoriasis that requires it to be applied to a large skin area: sure, absolutely, you’ll see systemic effects (sometimes significant and problematic ones).


Pierce

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Aug 27 2012 at 5:14pm #

@Vannevar

Solace is a pretty nice thing when you’re facing death

If you’re up for reading about one man’s experience, check out:

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Cancer-Year-Harvey-Pekar/dp/1568580118


Vannevar

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Aug 27 2012 at 7:00pm #

Hi Pierce, i understand that. Solace based on a lie isn’t real. People selling false stories (ie LAF) to weak needy people are scoundrels and they make the patients into victims twice over.

Also +1 re Harvey Pekar


Anonymous

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Aug 28 2012 at 2:25am #

This hasn’t hurt Livestrong in the least. In fact, donations skyrocketed at the news.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-24/lance-armstrong-livestrong-response/57309064/1


sarah_q

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Aug 29 2012 at 12:33pm #

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8310275/armstrong-worth-honoring

Many people are wearing yellow on Friday for this.


orionz06

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Aug 29 2012 at 12:49pm #

Decent article, I dig it. Did not know that about 2003′s race.


steevo

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Aug 29 2012 at 1:11pm #

Everybody in the top 10 of 2003 was sketch.

Just cause zubeldia went into anonymity

does not mean that he was clean.

10th place now races crappy american pros for

25k a year.

If Bernie Madoff took some of his power and

used it for a good cause would that ESPN

writer have similar article?

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html


Mick

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Aug 29 2012 at 2:45pm #

That “Outside” article makes it appear a little scandalous that little of the LiveStrong money goes to cancer research, but otherwise it a pretty good article.

I’m a medical researcher by profession. I think it’s correct that LiveSTrong could add very little to the progress of research, which gets big bucks from other sources. And if they tried to support medical charities, a lot of that money would go to millionaire surgeons and other rich people.

I’m skeptical of “charities” that transfer funds from ordinary folks to some wealthier members of the 1%.

Offering user-friendly support for cancer victims? That gives me warm fuzzy feelings. You need to spend a lot of money on the ephemeral “awareness” to make diagnosis-traumatized people understand that there are places they can call for help. YOu need to put effort into making a place somewhere sick peop0le can call and feel welcome (even when the staff is having, as we all do, a really bad day). I’m OK with that.

Many of you recall that I am no fan of doping racers, so you know I’m not saying this out of any Lance adolation.

Now does Lance divert scrutiny from the more sordid aspects of his bike career with the charity and use the charity to build his name-recognition/income potential? Sure.

You gotta take the yin with the yang.

In other news, do I think the 3 best-ever male swimmers are all current US olympians without anything funny using the latest biotech going on?

HAHAHAHA!

You gotta be careful of who you make a hero.


Adam

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Aug 29 2012 at 3:56pm #

You know… Why don’t they just do a grand tour where the athletes are ENCOURAGED to dope up with blood, testosterone, weed, and whatever other substances they cam cram into their bodies and see who wins it!

I bet the spectacle would be more exciting to watch than this last summer’s tour. If every other day a new rider gains a 10 minute “Landis Style” over the field, followed by some other juicer fetching it back the next day and gaining a 5 minute lead on the field — following by someone “OD-ing” and dropping dead on the side of the road, etc…

More people would be watching the sport.

That’s just my $.02

Heck, maybe someone can OD on some heroin or something and jump off his bike running around trying to get all of the “spiders” off of him, or running around like Ricky Bobby in his underwear rolling on the ground because he thinks he is on fire…

It would be as dramatic as back in the day when tour riders had to change their own flat tires!!!


jonawebb

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Aug 29 2012 at 3:59pm #

Sort of like professional wrestling. But the problem is, these guys would die pretty young. So, pretty sad in the end.

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