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Bicycle Accident Downtown

This topic contains 80 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  Drewbacca 1 yr, 6 mos.

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Steven

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Apr 15 2013 at 10:28am #

Val: “You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too.”

Val: “I never said anyone deserved an ambulance ride.”

“Earn: 2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action.”

You should definitely start your own message board. Then you could edit your old posts to match what you later claim you’ve said.


JaySherman5000

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Apr 15 2013 at 10:30am #

@Val: “the pedestrian in question may have earned it

that quote (from your earlier post) was interpreted via your tone as meaning “the pedestrian might have deserved it.” If that wasn’t your intended meaning, you should have clarified that after Salty’s or anyone else’s reply. The fact that you jumped directly to petty name calling and insulting people showed your lack of maturity, and I correctly called you out on that. So suck on that for a minute.

As for freedom of speech, internet forums are moderated and inherently do not come with a guarantee of freedom of speech. The rules for this board specifically state “Be constructive and no SPAM.” which means non-constructive comments and spam are subject to deletion (aka censorship) by the moderators. So yours, mine, and everyone else’s shit-posting above should, according to the rules, be deleted, leaving our voices muted and our freedom to say what we feel sufficiently trampled.

themoreyouknow.ogg


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 11:13am #

Steven wrote:Val: “You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too.”

Val: “I never said anyone deserved an ambulance ride.”

“Earn: 2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action.”

You should definitely start your own message board. Then you could edit your old posts to match what you later claim you’ve said.

You should extract your head from your ass, and see that I clearly meant that the pedestrian may well have precipitated the collision by stepping off the curb in front of a speeding bicycle. It’s really that simple, Nancy, I mean, Steve.


jonawebb

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Apr 15 2013 at 11:29am #

@Val, two things
1) You are aware that the fundamental rule of Internet argumentation is that whoever posts last loses — right?
2) Calling guys girl names is childish and silly, especially with two women currently at the top of the Pittsburgh Endomondo rankings. I wish I was that tough.


stefb

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Apr 15 2013 at 11:30am #

Can we ban this guy already? I think he failed his second chance.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 11:47am #

Stefb, I knew we could count on your snarkiness. I’m guessing a certain someone won’t be far behind. You’ve really failed your second chance with me…


rsprake

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Apr 15 2013 at 11:57am #

Val wrote:Stefb, I knew we could count on your snarkiness. I’m guessing a certain someone won’t be far behind. You’ve really failed your second chance with me…

Go pick a fight somewhere else.


StuInMcCandless

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Apr 15 2013 at 12:10pm #

When I said we had had this, um, discussion before, it was with someone who posted as fungicyclist.

Here is Scott’s take on that conversation, July 2011:

http://bikepgh.org/mb/topic/east-lib-blvd-jerks/page/2/#post-222255


mr marvelous

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Apr 15 2013 at 12:25pm #

I rarely post on the message board any more except about the group rides that I participate in. When I joined the board a few years ago it was a fun intimidation free community of fellow cyclist. Name calling, bickering and insults were rare. It’s happening more often now and I don’t feel as comfortable about posting here as I once did. The message board has great people that I consider the best friends I have ever had. Unfortunately the good things about the message board are being overshadowed by a small number of trouble makers. Because of that I will not post on or read the Message Board.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 1:12pm #

I’ve corresponded with a few folks already who happen to agree that there is a core group of users on here, who do their best to dominate every discussion. And reading the post from Mr. Marvellous, I’d say there are some more out there.

It is not incumbent upon the Writer to explain every little detail in literal terms, so no feelings get hurt. It is the Reader’s responsibility to exercise their given comprehension skills to discern or filter their meaning and if unable to do so, ask for more information.

Of course NO ONE thinks ANYONE deserves to get plowed by a bicycle rider, car, locomotive or other moving vehicle. Having said that, raise your hand if you’ve never cursed some idiot under your breath, for making you execute a dangerous maneuver (maybe in traffic!) to avoid such an occurrence.

Maybe instead of copying and pasting my entire post and then using it for target practice (Salty), you might try to exercise some of that maturity everyone keeps talking about and discern what it is I was actually saying. In fact, if you skim ALL the posts on this thread, you might notice I’m not entirely alone in my assertions.

I didn’t join this site to have a place to argue, I can get that anywhere. But I don’t usually back down, it’s a personal rule of mine. I’m done debating this chickenshit topic and I hope that both parties are okay.. AS I CLEARLY STATED BEFORE.

Lastly, if a bunch of people think this site is being monopolized by a few self-designated elites, there just MIGHT be some truth to it…


Drewbacca

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Apr 15 2013 at 1:38pm #

“I didn’t join this site to have a place to argue, I can get that anywhere. But I don’t usually back down, it’s a personal rule of mine. “

There is a time to back down and a time to stand up. Stand up for what you believe. Stand up for what is right. Back down when it amounts to a miscommunication/misunderstanding.

The only thing that separates you from “a few self-designated elites” is your attitude. There are no walls here, other than what you put in place yourself. You dont’ have to agree with the core group of posters to fit in here.

If you are polite and courteous, than I don’t personally have a problem with you whether we agree or disagree on the topic at hand. If you are ever polite/courteous, that gets drowned out in threads like this. I don’t know, maybe it’s your personality? I suffer from foot-in-mouth-syndrome myself. BUT… I recognize when I’m the instigating and I take a step back rather than continue to add fuel to the fire (at least, I usually do).


rice rocket

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Apr 15 2013 at 2:43pm #

I hear you have a sequel coming out.

Straight to DVD though, ouch.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 3:04pm #

Val wrote:You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too. It happens all the time. The cyclist may have even been injured or had a concussion, or otherwise not realized the person was injured. Not to be a ped-hater but as many idiots as I’ve dodged while riding my bike, I wouldn’t doubt it for a second, in which case, maybe this pedestrian will have learned a valuable lesson about right-of-way. Namely, that right-of-way bullshit is small compensation when you’re taking an ambulance ride. I hope they’re both alright.

In case you missed it, Drewbacca, this is my first post in its entirety. Yeah, I can see how it’s positively dripping with attitude. I guess it’s a small miracle I wasn’t banned immediately for having the temerity to write such an awful post.

Now that you mention it, I guess I’m just a bad person. Now I finally get it…


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 3:06pm #

rice rocket wrote:I hear you have a sequel coming out.

Straight to DVD though, ouch.

I hear your mom has a sequel coming out, too. :)


bikeygirl

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Apr 15 2013 at 3:36pm #

tsk tsk tsk…

I work Downtown and see all of the above: Aggressive cyclists who run red lights, go flying-by almost hitting pedestrians, etc. I also see cyclists who are courteous and follow most road rules.

I’ve seen mindless pedestrians run into crossing the street without looking almost making me crash at times (and even laughing at me). I’ve also seen people staying on the sidewalk and crossing cautiously. Cars, buses… all the same. Both safe and dangerous behaviors exist of either camp. However and regardless, if an altercation happens, if someone is hurt, people should stay at the scene -regardless if a cyclist, pedestrian, car, etc…

Gonna have to say it: everytime I see a kamikaze cyclist riding through Downtown, it upsets me. Because while there’s equally “good” and “bad” riders out there, to anyone else-the public, we all look the same “people riding bikes”, and whatever good/bad behaviour one does, reflects on the other. And if the behavior is negative, well…. is like taking a step back for every step forward.

Sigh….
Now, focusing on the news at hand: any updates on the pedestrian? or the cyclist identified?

All that the cyclist accomplished by leaving the scene is to point culpability at him/her regardless if they were at fault or not. And while I know that car drivers are usually the ones fleeding the scene all time, that doesn’t mean that cyclists should do it too.


helen s

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Apr 15 2013 at 4:48pm #

So when we see other cyclists wantonly breaking traffic laws and riding dangerously, do we attempt to educate them as to the error of their ways? I think we should. Maybe this topic should be another thread….. if others are interested and willing to discuss.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 5:24pm #

On Principle: yes. I think it’s a judgement call. Some people are capable of pulling it off, some aren’t.


Drewbacca

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Apr 15 2013 at 5:41pm #

I never called, nor have I implied that, you are a bad person… you just suffer from foot-in-mouth disease. We should probably start a support group.


Pierce

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Apr 15 2013 at 5:54pm #

@Helen S

It’s kind of a tread lightly situation.

I mentioned to a guy that had just cut off about half a dozen cars and ran several red lights that we ended up at the same place (by that PNC building by the trail) and he started cursing at me and something along the lines of me being holier than though. I continued talking to him until about the HMB and he was basically like “I don’t give a shit about the cars or working with them or building a community, I’ve been riding my bike for 20 years and I’m used to fighting for myself”

Some people with this mentality drive, some ride a bike, it’s hard to break through to them


rsprake

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Apr 15 2013 at 5:58pm #

Unless you the person personally I think you just keep your mouth shut and ride like you want others to ride.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 6:12pm #

rsprake wrote:Unless you the person personally I think you just keep your mouth shut and ride like you want others to ride.

agreed.


Pierce

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Apr 15 2013 at 6:14pm #

Yep, because nothing changes behavior like a closed mouth

Now sarcasm on the other hand…


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 6:16pm #

Drewbacca wrote:I never called, nor have I implied that, you are a bad person… you just suffer from foot-in-mouth disease. We should probably start a support group.

No double standards here, folks, keep moving…


AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe

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Apr 15 2013 at 6:58pm #

Does anybody know if “Never Back Down 2″ is available at RedBox?


salty

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Apr 15 2013 at 7:16pm #

I don’t know but I’m suddenly in the mood for some Tom Petty.


Val

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Apr 15 2013 at 9:31pm #

Salty, that’s really hilarious. You’re funnier than dick cancer!


jonawebb

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Apr 16 2013 at 7:30am #

Well, at least we’ve moved on to male insults. Baby steps.
It’s really hard to educate somebody on how to ride, except for a newbie or somebody you know. And I would expect that people who ride like assholes often are, and aren’t that interested in hearing comments from other riders. But still, polite advice can have an impact over time, even if the rider responds negatively at first. I have modified my riding style over my lifetime, even in response to drivers honking at me. (For a little while, when I was a teenager, I tried riding right in the middle of the road — perfect spot, no cars!)


richierich

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Apr 16 2013 at 8:42am #

It can’t hurt much to offer advice regarding biking norms – if someone is just making different choices knowingly, they probably won’t change, but if they just don’t know what’s considered correct behavior, they could be very grateful. You don’t need to be a newbie to be unaware of the rules, either, just disconnected or unaware of the community.

As an example, I grew up in a fairly rural area where there’s not much to know about traffic rules, no separate sidewalks to worry about, not many cars, etc. When I moved to a more urban environment for college there was really nobody around to tell me how one rides in a city, and I had no idea that rules or laws about bikes even existed, so I just zipped around on or off the sidewalk, or in the middle of the road, or however seemed least likely to get me killed. I definitely irritated and endangered plenty of people – including myself – for several years before I met anyone who filled me in on some basic rules. I wish it had happened sooner …

So I only see upsides to at least asking if someone wants some advice, if they’re displaying erratic or otherwise undesirable behavior and it’s not obviously a reasoned decision.


byogman

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Apr 16 2013 at 9:32am #

There are a few who can be reached, but anything beyond a polite suggestion in the moment, when it costs you nothing, is likely wasted energy. Best bet is to focus energy on new riders.

People who’ve been at it for a while in the same environment, especially if they’re regular riders, have already ingrained their habits.


bikeygirl

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Apr 16 2013 at 11:04am #

helen s wrote: So when we see other cyclists wantonly breaking traffic laws and riding dangerously, do we attempt to educate them as to the error of their ways? I think we should. Maybe this topic should be another thread….. if others are interested and willing to discuss.

While I kind-of started this, I disagree with this…..

As rsprake said: “…ride like you want others to ride…” because I think that’s the most efficient way. I usually just roll my eyes at people riding dangerously, or might raise my hand with a “are you for real?” look on my face. Other than that I stay polite in the road.

There’s been times when I’ve been riding with strangers who don’t stop for red lights and/or don’t make turn signals, that when they see me doing it, they commented “I guess that makes sense”. Most of the time these people have been of the older-crowd, but that goes to show that sometimes people are fairly new to city riding and don’t realize the benefits of being a predictable cyclist on the road.

I will note that if someone, weather cyclist OR pedestrian OR driver does something that almost makes me crash, or is just over-the-top dangerous, I do tend to yell something at them. I do this also when I drive: My Dad always taught me that if someone does something on the road that is really just wrong and dangerous, it is my civil duty to point it out, in the hopes that they will remember -or realize- that what they did was unsafe.

So yeah, I’m done…..


helen s

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Apr 16 2013 at 11:46am #

“People who’ve been at it for a while in the same environment, especially if they’re regular riders, have already ingrained their habits.”

I have been at it a while in the same environment as a regular rider, but have changed my attitude quite a bit in the last 2 years, mainly from reading comments on this board. I used to feel more like a lone ranger renegade cyclist, but now feel I should be the model cyclist any time there are other vehicles in sight.
I do still go through red lights after a stop if there are no other vehicles in sight, often the case on early Sunday mornings.

Riding through town during rush hour once, I was behind a guy on a too small mountain bike who was running lights and weaving on and off the sidewalk. When I caught up to him I just asked if he felt the bike was a vehicle or a toy. He replied the latter- and I left it at that for him to ponder.


StuInMcCandless

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Apr 16 2013 at 12:35pm #

There were three of us riding along Sarah St one Saturday back in December. We stopped for a stop sign, then almost got creamed by another cyclist who blew a stop sign at an intersection. One of us said something corrective — pleasant tone of voice, not threatening, kindalike a “I wouldn’t have done that” (it’s been four months, I don’t recall exactly) — and got in response a flow of profanity and insults, being called at best “holier than thou”.

“Um, we were in the right?” was our collective (and voiced) response, which just sent the guy over the edge. We just pedaled away, shaking our heads.

When you are clearly in the wrong, and cannot admit it, is there any hope for you?


jonawebb

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Apr 16 2013 at 12:43pm #

@Stu for some reason this makes me think of a letter to the editor of a skater magazine a while back. The author was writing in to say that he’d just found out that Washington, D.C., is not in Washington state, and he’d just like to give a big f*ck you to all the people who had not told him that over the years.


Val

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Apr 16 2013 at 3:48pm #

^ That was super helpful. Now I get it!


Pierce

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Apr 16 2013 at 8:24pm #

“There are a few who can be reached, but anything beyond a polite suggestion in the moment, when it costs you nothing, is likely wasted energy. Best bet is to focus energy on new riders.”

(Prepare to roll eyes) This reminds me of veganism.

The few that can be reached are worth it, even if you have to go through a few people cursing at you to get it. It could be one less pedestrian ran over, a lot less annoyed drivers, and for those who don’t change their behavior, at least they’re being presented a counter-view from another cyclist, rather than being able to just demonize cars.

Chances are, they’re not going to ride any more dangerously because we talk to them


Drewbacca

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Apr 16 2013 at 8:58pm #

Case in point, I just ate bacon while rolling my eyes at you. ;) mmmmmm bacon.

It’s a good example though… there is a distinction between being helpful (pointing out the harm in a lifestyle choice in a non-combative way) vs having a sort of holier-than-thou approach.

I don’t think anyone would ride “more dangerously” though… they will simply ignore the input. Ultimately, it’s not the message that is a potential problem but how it is presented. I think that comes back to why it is better to point out bad behavior to someone you know as opposed to a stranger.

Personally, I just try to keep the message short. Sometimes I will yell at a cyclist out of my car window: “Hey! I’m a cyclist too… and what you just did was really stupid!” It must be that angry-motorist agression or something as I am less likely to point out bad behavior while on two wheels?


byogman

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Apr 16 2013 at 9:02pm #

I guess I’ll just say I have a limited supply of do gooder energy and this seems like an inefficient way to use it. I mean, if I’m right next to someone who’s been riding like like a lemming I’ll express some polite concern (something like… “hey man, that was kind of close, be careful out there”).

What I won’t do is yell, try to catch up with them, and certainly won’t go their way instead of mine to try to get another chance to talk. The more you do the more you look like someone with an agenda and the more the defenses go up anyway. And yes, a select few idiots might ride even more aggressively to ditch you / prove a point in their minds… people like being “right”.

Helen, I salute you and anyone trying to be a model cyclist… you’re better than I. But it makes sense you’d find counterexamples among our midst… us regular readers/posters think WAY more about cycling than your average Joe. It makes sense some of us wouldn’t just think, but would tinker with our riding style in response. I maintain that most people don’t think, and don’t want to think about how they transport themselves. That’s half the reason it’s so hard to get people out of their cars.

Pierce, I like vegan foods. I just happen to like them even more when you add a little meat.


Val

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Apr 16 2013 at 9:02pm #

Pierce’s comments made me realize how important it is to invite new cyclists and make new riders feel included but more importantly, have fun doing the sport. Because then at least while they’re newly developing riders, they are gluttons for information. And of course, what better time to teach someone else proper etiquette and survivability skills…

PS: Helen, there’s your strategic outlook. If you want to make good cyclists, grow them.


byogman

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Apr 16 2013 at 9:28pm #

Actually, I’m taking that rather literally, with my eldest daughter. She’s too young to be riding in the street solo, but I’ll take her with me (and the two little ones in the trailer) on some super-quiet stretches with me, most likely on Sunday mornings, so she can get some practice and learn the skills. For the time being at least, she still listens to me.


quizbot

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Apr 16 2013 at 9:57pm #

ITT: schadenfreude

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