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Bikers Hit at Reynolds and S. Lexington

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Mick

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Apr 25 2013 at 5:06pm #

There are, as has been mentioned good reasons for some people to buy SUVs, but usually, even thinking that an SUV might be desirable is a sign that you watch more TV than your brain is capable of processing correctly.


Mikhail

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Apr 25 2013 at 5:30pm #

jonawebb wrote:her line of sight would have been a lot closer to the boy’s head if she was lower down, so she’d have been more likely to notice him in her peripheral vision.

This is overly generic statement. Look at Corvette or Mustang. You are almost laying in a seat. Your ability to observe is even worse than in SUV and/or in minivan. As a matter of fact in these cars your observation ability is more limited in any direction than in SUV. You cannot turn your head easily. Your head is much lower relative to nontransparent part of a door. I can name quite a few cars with the same issues.


Drewbacca

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Apr 25 2013 at 5:51pm #

@ericf,

The statement that you quoted wasn’t meant to imply that “the SUV caused” anything. It was meant to clarify that my talking-about-SUVs-in-general was drifting off-topic. I certainly could have been more clear, but I didn’t expect the necessity of doing so.

To be clear: No, I don’t think that an SUV caused this particular incident. I know that the driver of an SUV caused this particular incident. Would the driver have done the same in a smaller car? There’s no way of knowing… so, I suppose it’s a moot discussion to have.

That said: I don’t have a problem with SUVs on a case-by-case basis. I don’t have a problem with anyone owning or driving one in general. What I have a problem with is the cultural aspect of SUVs. They were pushed by auto manufacturers due to the higher profit-margins. They were, for a while at least, a luxury vehicle that was a method of getting around gasoline efficiency requirements. They were and continue to be a vehicle frequently driven by people who have never learned to drive a vehicle of that size. They are also a self-sustaining trend… in that, put enough of them on the road and it becomes an incentive (in of itself) for other drivers to buy one in order to not feel vulnerable to the large number of SUVs on the road. It also creates a problem with visibility for other drivers who can’t see past an SUV… which was my primary point. I’ll leave it at that unless someone wants to start a separate thread for SUV discussion.

The wreck could have happened if she was driving a golf-cart FWIW… but I think it would have been less likely. Also (FWIW) I learned to drive in a full-size GM van and I drove a full-size pick’m-up truck for a few years.


Mick

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Apr 25 2013 at 7:54pm #

Uh… I don’t like SUVs, but I’m starting to feel queasy about this conversation.

We don’t know – either way- if the size and variety of that vehicle made a difference.

There’s real people from our community that were involved in this accident. They can – and some of them do for sure – read what we have written about this.

It’s emotionally charged. I mean, it is for us, even.

Perhaps we should take debate about SUVs to an other thread.


salty

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Apr 25 2013 at 10:25pm #

+1 take it to another thread. Whether you choose to travel by SUV, semi, tiny car, motorcycle, bicycle, skateboard, or on foot you’re responsible for making sure you don’t run people over.


cburch

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Apr 25 2013 at 10:56pm #

salty wrote:Whether you choose to travel by SUV, semi, tiny car, motorcycle, bicycle, skateboard, or on foot you’re responsible for making sure you don’t run people over.

also, yeah. take it to another thread.


ericf

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Apr 26 2013 at 4:58am #

I would like to offer my sincere apologies to those involved with this tragic incident, as well as the community at large, for dragging this thread off topic.
Although nothing was posted in poor taste, it does take the focus away from the victim and his family. My heart goes out to them, and I wish Iain a full and speedy recovery.
I have started a new thread here:

http://bikepgh.org/mb/topic/suv-debate/#post-270249


paulheckbert

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Apr 26 2013 at 9:36pm #

The police marked the POI (point of impact) and the stopping location of the car on the asphalt and I’d estimate the distance traveled after impact at about 30 feet. If those markings are accurate then from that long stopping distance I conclude that either:
a) driver was inattentive (i.e. didn’t see, hear, or feel the impact),
b) driver was not in control of vehicle, or
c) driver was traveling quite fast when the impact occurred,
or some combination of those.


jonawebb

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Apr 27 2013 at 8:38am #

As the mother posted on another thread, the father had to chase down the driver to get her to stop. Sickening, imagine.


edmonds59

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Apr 27 2013 at 8:46am #

I can imagine. I would be in jail. Because I would have beaten the living shit out of her.


ajbooth

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Apr 27 2013 at 9:18am #

+1

Not sure I could have controlled myself.


Drewbacca

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Apr 27 2013 at 11:35am #

Hitting the driver wouldn’t solve a thing when you have an injured child to tend to. Priorities.


gg

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Apr 27 2013 at 4:51pm #

jonawebb wrote:As the mother posted on another thread, the father had to chase down the driver to get her to stop. Sickening, imagine.

That is a sickening image. I really don’t know what to say other than I hope he is doing better each day and makes a full recovery. Just a horrible story.


neenad

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Apr 27 2013 at 4:53pm #

I am shocked by this accident and it is truly a shame. Everyone fails to mention that the driver stopped to let the dad and daughter go across and the boy was no where near them. I question why the father didn’t wait for his other child before waving thank you to the driver. How many times has it happened that kids ran out in front of cars and gotten hit. I think EVERYONE needs to be more careful and mindful of our children. I have much sympathy for everyone involved. It was a horrible accident. No one person was at fault and condemning all drivers who turn down a road in point breeze as careless is uncalled for. I drive this neighborhood as I did that very day and never have I hit anyone. I agree that when biking, it should be safer, I only bike in certain areas with my kids and will continue to do so until our city is responsible for our safety.


Mikhail

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Apr 27 2013 at 5:50pm #

neenad wrote: the boy was no where near them

Do you have facts on this account? Or did you witness it? If answer is no the you kno waht it is. Some people do a lot of assumptions including one that there is only one child following a parent. I saw almost similar situation but with crossing pedestrians when second child almost got hit even the girl followed father and and brother was 3 feet behind. I had to kick door of the car pretty hard making a dent in it to get driver attention.


edmonds59

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Apr 27 2013 at 9:05pm #

Welcome to the board, neenad.
Glad you’re shocked. I’m sure the parents are as well.
First, fuck the term “accident”. This is negligent operation of a vehicle.
Also, fuck the term “shame”. This is a tragedy.
I have no sympathy for this driver. When she put the key in the ignition she accepted responsibility for operating a thing that is a potentially deadly weapon, and she should have operated it in a corresponding manner.
The driver is entirely at fault, so stop that bullshit immediately.
I am so glad you have never hit anyone. I’m sure everyone who has not been hit by you is glad also.
The city is not responsible for “our” safety. Operators of motor vehicles are.
Thanks for your input.


StuInMcCandless

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Apr 27 2013 at 9:20pm #

Not enough attention is being paid, IMHO, to my contention: Why EVER drive? What made this trip, or anyone’s trip in a car, necessary? I’m sure a few trips can only be accomplished by using an automobile, but the more you try not to, the more you find out that indeed it is possible.

Change some things.
* Choose not to shop at a place that can only be gotten to by car.
* Choose to plan expected trips, like shopping, such that you only need to do it once every two weeks instead of weekly or almost daily.
* Choose to commute by bus, carpool, bicycle, feet, or some combination thereof.
* Better yet, telecommute when at all possible so you don’t lose valuable time at 100% capacity doing something useless like merely getting there. Demand it, when the job allows it.
* Downsize your fleet. Your household only needs one car, tops. I’m making it work in McCandless, have been for 20+ years. Stop thinking “I own a car” and rather “My household has a car, shared among multiple drivers.”
* Stop making trips to “pick someone up” when they can walk or bike or bus.
* Decide that Suzy and Danny *can* get to piano lesson on their own. Think “they’re already 10″ instead of “they’re only 10″.
* Cease to tolerate bad driving behavior. Call people out on it. If you want to stand at red lights with a baseball bat and take out a windshield or two of drivers who don’t yield to pedestrians, it might be worth the court battle and media coverage.
* When cycling, TAKE THE DAMN LANE. Refuse to concede to having to hug parked cars (with doors opening), the curb, etc. You are MUCH safer smack dab in front of someone’s steering wheel than off to the side where they *think* they can get past you.
* Buy bus fare. I didn’t say ride the bus. (Well, I did, earlier, but this is different.) Buy a monthly pass. Then another. Figure out how the system works without having to figure out fares. Make it work. The more people they have paying into the system, whether they ride it or not, the more likely they will keep routes in place and maybe even expand service.
* Learn how to use the buses’ bike racks. Bike to the bus, use the bus to get past the suckiest traffic, then bike the rest of the way to your destination.

I was at the park for that little gathering. I rode from McCandless, up by CCAC North, by way of downtown where I work. I took a bus to the busway’s Homewood station and biked to Reynolds & S Lex. Then I rode back downtown, using Fifth, taking the lane (nearly) the whole way. (One spot, I let a bunch of cars and a bus past. One.)

Stop driving. I’m serious. Figure out how. Make it work. I don’t care what you’re driving. When we stop driving, we will stop running people over. It’s that simple.


byogman

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Apr 27 2013 at 10:01pm #

Stu, the problem is very clear. Nobody thinks when they get into the car… hey, I feel like putting my neighbors and others passing through my neighborhood in danger today.

Except that’s what they’re doing.

In the case of tired, distracted, or rushed driving the danger knob goes to 11. I mean, people have ~somewhat~ got the idea with drinking, but these three conditions, often combined are SO common and people don’t think twice about driving under them.

This is, I think, is where the message can start. I had my fun earlier in the thread with the link out to “Wake Up!”, but the truth is that full throated Rage Against the Machine probably won’t be heard.

Look, I’d love people out of the cars in dense urban areas, period, till they’re self driving. But it ain’t happening. And trying to get them to realize that any driving with other options is not good is too far a reach. The comparative low hanging fruit here is to make someone feel a sense of responsibility about driving tired, distracted, or rushed.

Show first behavior, crash, rewind, show better behavior (or public transit option). With the distracted driving case, you should do cells of course, but I think that’s worthy of a two-parter. In the second part, kids causing trouble in the back seat, parent warns, “I’m going to pull this car over!”, reaches back, crash, rewind, “I’m going to pull this car over!”… and then actually pulling the car over… cut to sheepish looking kid. Tagline: BE IN CONTROL.


ajbooth

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Apr 28 2013 at 10:51am #

neenad wrote:I am shocked by this accident and it is truly a shame. Everyone fails to mention that the driver stopped to let the dad and daughter go across and the boy was no where near them. I question why the father didn’t wait for his other child before waving thank you to the driver.

Try this one on for size, @neenad:

The driver waved the family on. The boy was a little bit behind the others, just far enough to be out of the driver’s straight ahead line of vision. When she saw the father and daughter pass, without turning her head, she ASSUMED that it was clear, and went forward. Without looking to be sure.

That’s my assumption, admittedly not having any more information than what’s been published.

That being said, yes, there was a person at fault. The driver. She hit someone because she didn’t see him. Simply means she either didn’t look, or didn’t look hard enough. Either way, it’s on her. Stop trying to blame the father, even though you say no one is to blame.


furchtbar

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Apr 28 2013 at 5:45pm #

“Everyone fails to mention that the driver stopped to let the dad and daughter go across and the boy was no where near them. I question why the father didn’t wait for his other child before waving thank you to the driver. How many times has it happened that kids ran out in front of cars and gotten hit. ”

You could ask the sister of the boy who got hit if he was “on her wheel” TdF style. Or ask the father, who made EYE CONTACT, with the driver and did not “wave her on.”
Speculating nincompoop. Raising issues is good, speaking falsely about facts you know nothing about us irresponsible and could be hurtful.
Think of the father! I do, he is my husband and my son was hit and there is no way he would lag behind his twin.


ErinK

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Apr 28 2013 at 9:38pm #

By the way, I rode through here Saturday morning on my way to the Keg Ride and a woman driving up Lexington totally blew off the stop sign and was halfway through the intersection when I yelled at her and she stopped. That’s the only stop sign in that intersection and she’s driving right through it? I was riding toward the traffic circle so I was heading right where she was driving.

I don’t think the cycling community’s outrage is enough to change drivers’ behavior but a few police blitzes ticketing folks who drive this way could make a big difference. Who has pull with the police around here?


byogman

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Apr 28 2013 at 10:13pm #

“Who has pull with the police around here?”

I don’t know but am going to guess, um… nobody. At least, the amount of garbage that seems to go on with complete disinterest or a shrug at best make it hard to think anything else.

Now, if anyone objects to this and says, hey my cousin so and so is a police officer (preferably high ranking), then GREAT! Let’s make those connections and see what can be accomplished. In fact, even if we don’t have those connections personally, I wonder if organizationally, event based, bike-pgh can help seed this. One way or another, we need friends carrying badges.


furchtbar

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Apr 28 2013 at 10:26pm #

Citizen’s arrest? We should check into the guidelines. Pool funds and buy a speed “gun”. (Don’t go there)
Then we can either collect data or make Citizen’s arrests. Even data would be great.


J Z

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Apr 28 2013 at 10:28pm #

ErinK wrote:

I don’t think the cycling community’s outrage is enough to change drivers’ behavior but a few police blitzes ticketing folks who drive this way could make a big difference. Who has pull with the police around here?

I think that’s District 9, Burgess.


paulheckbert

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Apr 28 2013 at 10:54pm #

I went back to Lexington and Reynolds and measured the distance the car traveled after it hit the boy and before stopping (as marked on the asphalt), and it’s 40 feet. My earlier estimate of 30 feet was inaccurate.


furchtbar

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Apr 29 2013 at 2:15am #

byogman wrote:“Who has pull with the police around here?”

I don’t know but am going to guess, um… nobody. At least, the amount of garbage that seems to go on with complete disinterest or a shrug at best make it hard to think anything else.

Now, if anyone objects to this and says, hey my cousin so and so is a police officer (preferably high ranking), then GREAT! Let’s make those connections and see what can be accomplished. In fact, even if we don’t have those connections personally, I wonder if organizationally, event based, bike-pgh can help seed this. One way or another, we need friends carrying badges.

This has got to be one of my favorite comments. Thanks


ericf

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Apr 29 2013 at 4:40am #

StuInMcCandless wrote:Not enough attention is being paid, IMHO, to my contention: Why EVER drive? What made this trip, or anyone’s trip in a car, necessary? I’m sure a few trips can only be accomplished by using an automobile, but the more you try not to, the more you find out that indeed it is possible.

I am amazed at how you get around, in spite of our poor transit and inadequate infrastructure.
I lived car free for 18 months, and got around the eastern suburbs by doing a number of thing that you list. I went back to driving part time, that is another story.


ericf

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Apr 29 2013 at 4:46am #

furchtbar wrote:Think of the father! I do, he is my husband and my son was hit and there is no way he would lag behind his twin.

My heart continues to ache for you and your family. I can only imagine how upsetting it must be to read some of this crap.
Please know that we truly care for you and your family. All speculation aside Pittsburgh has a great cycling community and we are here for you.


EastEndResident

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May 1 2013 at 10:11am #

Hello everyone, I’m a resident of Point Breeze. I’m an active biker like all of you, along with being an active runner and a pedestrian who takes advantage of living in a beautiful walkable neighborhood. I live within 100 yards of all three of the biking tragedies that have taken place in less than a year. I also have a beautiful 7 month old baby boy who I walk daily in his stroller.

First, my deepest sympathies to the family. It appears that the mother is posting here, and on behalf of my family, I would like to state, if there is anything we can do to help out, please let me know. I saw someone else say that if this were their child, they would be in jail. I’d be joining whoever said that.

After reading a few of the posts, I’m guessing, as I predicted, no charges have been filed. The day after this happened, I was walking my baby along South Braddock, and as I was properly waiting to use a crosswalk, a typical Pittsburgh driver pulls up and ignores the crosswalk, looks right, looks left then “OH, SORRY, DIDN’T SEE YOU”……and of course they didn’t, because THEY WEREN’T LOOKING. If I had a dollar for every time I had someone mouth or say to me that they didn’t see me, I’d be pretty darn ritch.

I’ve considered myself a cyclist/pedestrian activist since the Stiles case in Mt Lebanon. In that time, I’ve seen multiple situations where cyclists and or pedestrians have been hit or hit and killed, with little to no punishment. In my common sense mind, a multi thousand vehicle of any kind vs a human being should be a no brainer. But it seems like this country is near anarchy anymore. You literally can get away with murder, can’t you?

Again, my sympathies to the family, and I look forward to some great conversation with all of you.


EastEndResident

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May 1 2013 at 10:15am #

ericf wrote:

furchtbar wrote:Think of the father! I do, he is my husband and my son was hit and there is no way he would lag behind his twin.

My heart continues to ache for you and your family. I can only imagine how upsetting it must be to read some of this crap.Please know that we truly care for you and your family. All speculation aside Pittsburgh has a great cycling community and we are here for you.

ErinK wrote:By the way, I rode through here Saturday morning on my way to the Keg Ride and a woman driving up Lexington totally blew off the stop sign and was halfway through the intersection when I yelled at her and she stopped. That’s the only stop sign in that intersection and she’s driving right through it? I was riding toward the traffic circle so I was heading right where she was driving.

I don’t think the cycling community’s outrage is enough to change drivers’ behavior but a few police blitzes ticketing folks who drive this way could make a big difference. Who has pull with the police around here?

furchtbar wrote:“Everyone fails to mention that the driver stopped to let the dad and daughter go across and the boy was no where near them. I question why the father didn’t wait for his other child before waving thank you to the driver. How many times has it happened that kids ran out in front of cars and gotten hit. ”

You could ask the sister of the boy who got hit if he was “on her wheel” TdF style. Or ask the father, who made EYE CONTACT, with the driver and did not “wave her on.”Speculating nincompoop. Raising issues is good, speaking falsely about facts you know nothing about us irresponsible and could be hurtful.Think of the father! I do, he is my husband and my son was hit and there is no way he would lag behind his twin.

I agree. This person will continue to drive careless, just like the rest of the population, because there is no enformcent and/or punishment


lilyiris

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May 3 2013 at 10:09pm #

“Everyone fails to mention that the driver stopped to let the dad and daughter go across and the boy was no where near them. I question why the father didn’t wait for his other child before waving thank you to the driver. How many times has it happened that kids ran out in front of cars and gotten hit. ”

REALLY??? I am not sure why it continues to shock me when I hear outrageously ignorant comments, but it does. I know this family, and you would have a hard time finding more attentive loving parents. They make every effort to provide the type of emotionally strong, intellectually stimulating, physically fit, and ecologically sound environment every child should be entitled to.

Keep in mind that a child, A CHILD was nearly killed while engaging in a healthy fun activity with his family…he is hurt badly. This little boys sister and father had to see it happen, and his mother is in the type of emotional pain that I hate to even imagine. To blame his dad is absurd and disgusting, I am appalled!

People really need to be more aware of their surroundings and attentive to the people around them, watch where you are going people, seriously! The best day will be the day this lil guy can get back on his bike and ride again with his family!


bikeygirl

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May 6 2013 at 11:24am #

BUMP

May 15th – Pittsburgh Bike Ride of Silence

What: The Pittsburgh arm of the worldwide Ride Of Silence™ bike rally. See http://rideofsilence.org

When: Wednesday, May 15, 7:00 PM. Gather at 6:45 PM (evening)
· Ride rain or shine – if it’s important, let’s do it.
· Check the WPW website (www.wpwbikeclub.org) for any last minute messages

Start location: Oakland – Schenley Plaza (next to Carnegie Library)

Base route is 11 miles – Fifth to Penn Ave, right out Penn to Wilkinsburg, loop around the block in Wilkinsburg to reverse direction, Penn Ave to Main St in Bloomfield (just past Children’s Hospital), over the Bloomfield Bridge, left on Bigelow Blvd to start. Route is documented here: http://ridewithgps.com/routes/1604145.

-Why attend?

• to honor those cyclists injured or killed on public roadways
• to raise awareness of cyclists on the road
• to demonstrate responsible road sharing
• to show that cyclists are not going away

Personally, I’ll be attending to honor Ian and his family, but also for all the reasons above. If you can, please be there!

https://www.facebook.com/events/328632897239935/

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