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Suffer fools gladly

This topic contains 89 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  Drewbacca 10 mos.

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StuInMcCandless

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May 5 2013 at 8:01pm #

Check out this exchange I had with a friend of a friend on Facebook the other day. Topic: The new green bike lane on Liberty. I do not recall meeting him in person, though we may have. Apparently, he’s a T operator, or some other Rail employee at Port Authority.

Honest opinions here: Could I have handled this better? How would you have done this? (Meanwhile, I was at work, and was trying to get honest work done, so I couldn’t exactly devote much attention to this.)

[gah...can't post the pic in the first post; will have to upload in a comment]


StuInMcCandless

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May 5 2013 at 8:03pm #

Here’s the interchange, pasted together into a single image. You will have to click on the image, then zoom in a bit and/or have to scroll sideways to see all three columns.

My apologies if you’re on a hand-held device and are looking at a postage stamp image with 1,000 words in it.


salty

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May 5 2013 at 8:26pm #

That guy is an idiot and a prick, Stu. No way I would have remained that patient.


Pierce

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May 5 2013 at 8:29pm #

I like how the guy keeps saying cyclists “break the law” and then says “I don’t care about (bicycle) passing laws” Maybe it could have been handled better, but only if you wanted to hear more of his bicycle grievances

Not bad, maybe pay him a visit at the T station sometime


salty

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May 5 2013 at 8:29pm #

FYI – I rode on it yesterday, it does have a sandpapery kind of texture so hopefully it will be fine in the rain.


Pierce

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May 5 2013 at 8:33pm #

I’m also getting sick of the this “cyclists break laws and that’s why they get hit” BS. Tell that to the kid in the hospital. Or maybe the the guy who left hooked me. Or maybe when Nick got hit by that pickup. Or maybe James Price, etc, etc, etc


Vannevar

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May 5 2013 at 8:45pm #

What Salty said. I can only add: Stu, you’re a gentleman.


Drewbacca

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May 5 2013 at 8:48pm #

No one ever deserves to be hit… I would have called him on that much and I wouldn’t bother to respond beyond saying as much. He’s either a troll, or the guy has no right using our PUBLIC roads.


Steven

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May 5 2013 at 9:53pm #

The fool you argued with isn’t likely to care, but I’m not sure the bit of law you quoted is the best bit to cite.

The bill that introduced the 4 foot rule is here. It didn’t add 3301(a)(2), which you quoted. That was already there. But it added 3301(a)(6) to the list of reasons to drive on the left half of the roadway. 3301(a)(6) merely refers to another new paragraph, 3303(a)(3). And that’s the one that says “The driver of a motor vehicle overtaking a pedalcycle proceeding in the same direction shall pass to the left of the pedalcycle within not less than four feet at a careful and prudent reduced speed.”

So it establishes very directly that cars can drive on the left half of the road when it’s necessary to comply with the 4-foot bike-passing rule. That’s now one of the six reasons: passing where permitted, obstruction, signs say it’s OK, one-way street, left turn, passing bikes.

Arguing that a bike is an “obstruction” to a car, as in 3301(a)(2), might reinforce the view that bikes are in the way of “legitimate” road users. I think it’s better to avoid it, and refer to the bike-specific paragraphs.

(Of course, the fool you were arguing with seems like the kind of guy who will still want to argue with the judge while he’s being sentenced.)


quizbot

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May 6 2013 at 12:04am #

Thomas Bennett is a frothing gash.


stefb

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May 6 2013 at 4:00am #

quizbot wrote:Thomas Bennett is a frothing gash.

Quote of the year.


Benzo

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May 6 2013 at 7:27am #

“Never argue with a fool, on lookers may not be able to tell the difference.”


byogman

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May 6 2013 at 8:08am #

“Honest opinions here: Could I have handled this better? ”

No.

“How would you have done this?”

About the same, if I could summon the patience (big if). I would have had to google to get the relevant sections of law quotable.

“Never argue with a fool, on lookers may not be able to tell the difference.”

It’s a good quote, and wise to be aware of before getting into a back and forth, but it depends how you conduct yourself in the argument.

The more specific, third party, objective information you can pull in the more mature and informed you will appear.

That’s not the only argumentative technique at your disposal, analogies are very useful, and you can’t underestimate emotional appeals for real influence, but the specific, third party, objective information is your unique advantage and you should use it.


Drewbacca

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May 6 2013 at 8:56am #

“The more specific, third party, objective information you can pull in the more mature and informed you will appear.”

Sometimes, it simply isn’t worth the effort. Facts and statistics are great, but worthless when arguing with a self-righteous douchebag. You could argue that they are still helpful to 3rd party onlookers… but it’s questionable if anyone else will even bother to read the conversation let alone take the time to look up the specifics of the law and otherwise hold an opinion and/or engage in such a conversation.


erok

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May 6 2013 at 9:06am #

i think you handled it well. i also think as a professional operator, Thomas Bennett is an idiot for posting his ignorance of traffic laws and wishing bodily harm on people.

by his logic of “people who break the law” deserve to be hit, basically applies to every single person on rt 28


ajbooth

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May 6 2013 at 10:40am #

You handled this much better than I would have. My hackles get raised when people start dropping phrases like “I don’t give a fuck about passing laws” and “they deserve to be hit.” And calling you “dumbass” in the middle of it all…

I think you do a service by carrying this argument on, even though the other guys are flaming d-bags. People who think like them are not likely to change their minds, because it would require thought. People who don’t know may read it and decide to learn more. If even one driver reads this and changes their ways slightly, it’s a net win, because the other guys like Thomas Bennett and Eric Voight are going to remain assholes no matter what you say. While they are not likely to change, they won’t get any worse (we hope) and we just have to remain vigilant.


StuInMcCandless

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May 6 2013 at 11:19am #

I know the other two guys IRL. They’re not flaming DBs. The OP is a cyclist who lives in that area. The other is still in his teens. I just try to be the grown-up in the room.

The one thing I could have done differently? I did misread TB’s veiled threat as an actual threat. Would he actually clobber someone? Probably not, but is quite likely to be one of the people laying on the horn when you’re taking the lane. I too am happier that he operates a T vehicle rather than drive a bus.

Thank you to @Steven for having a more in-depth grasp of the vehicular laws’ intricacies.

I find it interesting that TB stopped arguing after my last post. Maybe I got through to him (which I hope) or maybe he just got tired of arguing (which I fear is more likely).


Mick

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May 6 2013 at 11:45am #

Vannevar wrote:Stu, you’re a gentleman.

Yeah, Dude!


Mick

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May 6 2013 at 11:56am #

Stu,

I think yo did an excellent job there. Your “misinterpretation” of his threat? That was nothing. It was a implied threat and he waffled when he was called on it.

I would have probably asked if he felt that anyone who broke the law – like, say a speeding driver – deserved to be hit. That is, I would have if I had engaged in the conversation without screaming abuse at the miscreants. Which is unlikely.

I think this is the kind of conversation that changes minds. I’m not sure if this one did or not.

Thomas Bennet probably has a good idea that he got pwned. He might refrain from this sort of talk in the future, though. Even without a “mind change,” that is something.

I used to work with Eric Voigt. Haven’t seen him in years, but if I do, I’ll bring this up.


cburch

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May 6 2013 at 12:46pm #

isnt making terroristic threats against the law? and if so, doesn’t that mean he deserves to be hit for making them?

never mind, irony would be lost on such a creature.


StuInMcCandless

Private Message

May 6 2013 at 12:47pm #

This is the 18-year-old Eric. You might have worked with his dad.

Anyway, I consciously chose not to let the argument get any wider than the business about crossing the center line. If I couldn’t “win” that one (read: make him talk sensibly), I wasn’t going to get any further on any other topic. I thought about bringing up Idaho stop rules, motorists rolling stops, etc., but I knew that would just give him even more to argue over. To me, it was a classic “pick your battles” argument.

And I’m sure there are 50 more like him out there. And some of them might be bus drivers.


buffalo buffalo

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May 6 2013 at 1:31pm #

We seem to get at least one of those bus drivers every Flock.


ajbooth

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May 6 2013 at 1:53pm #

I see those drivers every commute. Part of the job description to drive the 41 bus on West Liberty Ave must be a callous disregard for cyclists…

StuInMcCandless wrote:I did misread TB’s veiled threat as an actual threat.

Stu, I would agree with that possibly being a misread if he hadn’t repeated it. Once he said “need to be hit” and the second time he said “deserved to be hit.” Whether or not he would actually do it doesn’t seem to be the point. If he thinks that way, then he is less likely to use the appropriate caution around a cyclist. So if he hits someone, in his mind it will be OK because they deserved it.

I hope your well reasoned argument sank in and led him to decide to stop arguing…I doubt it, but a guy can dream, right?


HiddenVariable

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May 6 2013 at 4:05pm #

i stopped reading after i read “need to be hit”. the absolute nicest thing i could’ve done at that point was post this.

also, i wonder if his employer is interested to hear his attitudes toward road users and safety.


jonawebb

Private Message

May 6 2013 at 6:21pm #

This makes me think of something that happened during Meeting Sunday. A baby was crying, and it made me think of how that always makes me feel happy and at peace, because it’s one half of an act of love. The baby cries because it expects to be comforted, and then it is. When you have a troll like this trying to get a rise out of you, and you respond calmly, as you did, explaining the law, you’re doing the same kind of loving act, helping someone learn. Now, as with children, sometimes that means denying them something — no, you can’t drive wherever you want, that’s not what the law says — and, as children do, the guy responded negatively, but that doesn’t mean your message didn’t get through. At least, now, he knows what the rules are, and maybe that will affect his behavior someday.


gg

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May 7 2013 at 10:09am #

You handled it well. I probably would have given up at post two or so and not bothered. People like that are hopeless and just too dumb to get anything outside their own tiny world and own interests. Also too selfish, so he can’t change or be helped in any way.


Mikhail

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May 7 2013 at 12:27pm #

Stu,

You did very well.

PS I have a head-smacker at home. I would use it right away. :)


flyS564

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May 7 2013 at 3:51pm #

I can’t think of any better way to argue with a troll. You did good. Much like the riders I see that wave at drivers that give us crap during group rides at the same time my hand is about to raise for a different greeting, I get inspired to wave and smile, too.


StuInMcCandless

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May 14 2013 at 4:40pm #

I had another long, difficult conversation on Facebook again today, different person, someone I know IRL. He actually does ride a bicycle from time to time, and has ridden cross country quite a bit. In his view, this makes him an expert on cycling. Unfortunately, he lumps all experienced, law-abiding street cyclists in with those who breeze through red lights with nary a care.

Problem is, he’s impervious to reason. I can’t be bothered posting the whole conversation at the moment (I’m at work), but it did involve a half dozen regular posters on this board, and a few others besides. We all managed to keep our cool and remain civil — quite a feat, considering some of the personalities involved, and how intransigent he was.

The point is that this sort of individual is quite common — they’ve made up their minds that every other cyclist is a complete idiot, and stuff we take for granted, like taking lanes, is illegal and suicidal (his words). Somehow, we have to get through to people like this that, indeed, we are within our rights to do this, and they must accept it.

To give you an idea how stringently this guy thinks he’s right, he even went so far as to contact someone at the Greensburg State Police barracks, and got confirmation that his understanding of traffic law is correct.

btw, this particular individual is excellent at contacting legislators and getting on talk shows. One of his primary info sources is Marty Griffin’s discussion board. He is not alone. Gah! *tears out hair*

Conversation by conversation, somehow, we need to find these individuals and talk sense into them. I do see this guy in person from time to time, though I’ve never seen him on a bike in the city.


edmonds59

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May 14 2013 at 5:40pm #

Oh dear me, I must have missed out on something. Let me see what we have goin on over thurr…


Marko82

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May 14 2013 at 5:46pm #

I would be more concerned about the info out of a State Police barracks being in error than the one fool at the center of the discussion.


Drewbacca

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May 14 2013 at 5:55pm #

If he doesn’t think that bikes should take the lane… then he’s entitled to that opinion. He is not, however, entitled to tell me how to ride (beyond what is/isn’t legal). If he can’t accept/recognize this, then he isn’t someone who is going to be reached one way or another.


edmonds59

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May 14 2013 at 6:53pm #

Boom. heh-heh.


Drewbacca

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May 14 2013 at 7:52pm #

edmonds59 wrote:Boom. heh-heh.

Great, now you have me stalking Stu’s FB page to see what the story behind “Boom” is. LOL

The entire thing looks like a misunderstanding to me…
So he talked to a cop. OK. The thing is, the cop agreed with what he said which was worded a very specific way. That doesn’t mean that the cop agreed with what he is currently saying in that thread.

The problem seems to be that your fb contact is not understanding what as-far-to-the-right-as-REASONABLY-possible means. Who is advocating taking the entire lane as frequently as possible? No one, best I can tell. He doesn’t seem to be disagreeing with the need to take the lane in order to make a left turn (unless I missed something?). The guy seems to think we should all be riding in the door&shoulder zone which is nuts… but, he seems to think we are arguing that we deserve the entire lane at all times?!?! There’s no reason to NOT take the entire lane if there is no traffic wishing to pass; but, we should still lean towards the right side of the road (as much as possible, within reason).


edmonds59

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May 14 2013 at 8:24pm #

Stu, you know this guy, but he gives the impression he just doesn’t have all the chips securely soldered into the motherboard, if you know what I mean. Your comment on learning was dead on, brain incapable of accepting new information.


StuInMcCandless

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May 14 2013 at 8:48pm #

You nailed it.


edmonds59

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May 14 2013 at 9:10pm #

Well that was amusing for a while, lmao. What a knucklehead.


StuInMcCandless

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May 14 2013 at 9:14pm #

This was the third one of these in three days. Earlier discussions concerned Benghazi and the proposed BRT lanes on Fifth Avenue. He’s particularly nettlesome in that he always contacts legislators and speaks his mind. I wish all those of us who do have our shit together would be so tenacious.


paulheckbert

Private Message

May 14 2013 at 9:30pm #

Here’s the FB thread so far (let’s see if this fits…):

Stuart Strickland
In Idaho, cyclists may treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. Just like in 1992, when the 55 mph speed limit was lifted because the law needed to reflect reality, it’s time to change the rules.
TheWashCycle: Cyclists are special and do have their own rules
http://www.thewashcycle.com
Sarah Goodyear of the Atlantic has an article for Bike to Work Week entitled “Cyclists Aren’t ‘Special’, and They Shouldn’t Play by Their Own Rules.” The thesis seems to be that now that cycling is

James Love In any persons mind that has a real brain, it should be stop means stop. Red light stop yellow light slow down and be prepared to stop. Green go with caution at all meanings of thinking. Bike riders and all vehicles. That’s whats wrong with bikers and some drivers today they don’t pay attn to the rules, for they want to make up their own rules. Thats why there are accidents and deaths do to the careless ways of humans.
14 hours ago

Stuart Strickland Partially true. Not like you’re saying, though.
14 hours ago

James Love Stu I like you as a friend, however bikers in Pittsburgh don’t know the rules of the roads neither do driver’
14 hours ago

James Love Neither do driver’s of some of vehicles in towns and cities.
14 hours ago

Stuart Strickland You’re making a large, dangerous, and incorrect blanket statement. Also, it’s not the point of the discussion. The matter at hand is that, WHERE IT IS SAFE TO DO SO, cyclists would be allowed to proceed through a stop sign or red light.
14 hours ago

James Love Ok I will let you win on that one, however be careful Stu you may be hit a a invisible vehicle on the out look for bikers breaking the law by not stopping.
14 hours ago

James Love Wait a minute on the stop sign one yes but with the red light no way.
13 hours ago

Stuart Strickland Fourth Avenue, downtown, at Cherry Way. Both are low-speed, one-way streets. I see no reason, if I am first in line, and stopped, not to proceed through the red if there is nobody coming. Give me one good reason other than “the law is what it is, deal with it”?
13 hours ago

James Love Your life counts. If red light is on stop and wait for green no exceptions.
13 hours ago

Stuart Strickland OK, you’ve just identified yourself as impervious to reason. Conversation over.
13 hours ago · 2

James Love Stu your wrong, you have to exspect the unexspected from happening. I don’t know how many time drivers do crazy things to where people get hurt. Your not that wrong, however that road known Cherry Way is the last road I’d go through a red light with. It’s far to dangerous.
13 hours ago

Lyle Seaman I prefer a “very slow yield” which allows the same option for everyone regardless of the type of vehicle. It would require the driver to be able to see a certain distance down each conflicting roadway for a certain period of time, before proceeding through the intersection at no more than 5mph and to come to a complete stop if there is any other traffic at the intersection. Essentially, this would allow cars to roll through stop signs at wide-open intersections at about 2mph, as they do now, and allow bikes to roll through at about 5mph, as they do now.
12 hours ago

James Love I say complete stop reguardless. Safty 1st all the time. Bikers in cities are always doing wrongs as of late and thats why some are in graves for what stu wants t6 happen by cherry way and staying to left of lane hnstead of staying near curb and drains along with near fog lines.
via mobile

Stuart Strickland Jim, when you can articulate back to me what I mean, in your own words, and explain why what I am trying to say is wrong, rather than blindly pound your fist on existing traffic law, then we can talk. Use these words: “Stu, what you’re trying to say is ______, and here is why that is not a good idea,” then back that up with sound reasoning.
· Like · 3

Stuart Strickland btw, 4th and Cherry? Calmest corner in all of the Golden Triangle. If you’re first in line on a bicycle, either direction, sight lines are fantastic. I use them both almost daily.
· Like

Joe Frambach Lyle, I think you’re talking about a roundabout. And we all know that is much too complicated for the average american driver.
11 hours ago · Edited · 1

James Love Stu 1st road laws arn made 4 a reason callled safty 4 all. 2nd your on a bike. Most drivers don’t lonk 4 other vehicles walkers let alone bikes. I have noticed bikers refusing to yaild to walkers other vehicles let alone they wont use common sinse. Coming up murray ave saw a nnt biker riding along yellow line to turn left. Wrong thing to do. Proper would be ride along parked car to street then walk it aross and then ride along curve.
11 hours ago via mobile

James Love I speak as a biker walker and class c driver people.
11 hours ago via mobile

Joe Frambach Hell no I’m not getting off my bike to make a left turn. The lane is mine to use, and I am going to use it.
10 hours ago · 2

James Love Not the hole lane. Your suicidal and holding traffic up in the lane you are in from two blocks down to forward ave and more. Thats uncalled for.
10 hours ago via mobile

Stuart Strickland Jim. Stop talking. You’re trying to convince a roomful of experienced road cyclists that they don’t know what they’re talking about. These are people who put a couple hundred miles a month under them in city traffic. Including me. We know from first-hand experience, and from sharing information with one another, and from dissecting crashes, what we’re talking about.
10 hours ago · 2

Stuart Strickland Short version: You can repeat an uninformed opinion, but that does not change our reality.
10 hours ago

John Grabowski II mr. love likes to say that the laws were designed for safety reasons and yet he calls it suicidal to take the lane when making a left turn on a bicycle. however the law says a cyclist may take the lane at any time and the safest thing a cyclist can do when making a left in traffic is to obey that law and take that lane. aside from getting off the bicycle, waiting for the light to change and walking the bike across the intersection, which no experienced cyclist should ever be expected to do, how would he suggest we make that left turn?
9 hours ago · 1

James Love Safety John I fully understand, however taking the whole lane is not safe as Stu is pushing. Bikers are to come to a complete stop at red lights and stop signs as everyone is to do.
9 hours ago

James Love I have asked the State Police to contact Stu and Bike Pittsburgh to update all of you of whats safe for all bikers and everyone else on roads, seeing the people who are involved with biking in Pittsburgh are refusing to bike safely.
9 hours ago

James Love To make a left turn slay off Murry Avenue, go to corner and push the walk sign and wait for the white person to come on and walk across the street like everyone else does, then get back on and ride safely. Don’t take up the whole lane all the way up Murray from Forward like the man did this morning for 3 blocks to make the left turn.
9 hours ago

Stuart Strickland Jim. Stop talking. Six experienced street cyclists are on this thread, at least one of them with formal training and certification in cyclist training, and we’re all saying you’re wrong.
9 hours ago · 1

James Love If so exsperienced why are all of you doing deadly acts on roads?
9 hours ago

John Grabowski II +1 million what stu said about “we know from first hand experience…”. for example, i ride west carson street from the west end to the western most entrance of the station square parking lot frequently. cars travel that stretch of road in excess of 40 mph and i have to move from the right lane to the left lane in order to make that left turn into the parking lot. i have to take the full left lane, if i leave room to pass on either side cars will pass and i will either have cars to my left and right moving the same direction passing me at 40 plus mph or cars to my left and right moving in opposite directions passing me at 40 plus mph! how is that safe? if i’m in the middle of the lane i have the best chance of being seen by motorists behind me and they can choose to merge into the right lane to pass or wait the 5 seconds it takes me to make my left turn. you are not educating anyone here mr love, you need to educate yourself on the laws and the act of self preservation.
9 hours ago

James Love John in a normal left turn situation from a non hill left turn I agree with you to be in the left turn lane but to be on the right side of it not to block the vehicle from making the turn as I see happening. H
9 hours ago

Stuart Strickland Jim, from our discussion the other day, I know that your method of riding down the street, hugging the curb and cars, is about the most dangerous method out there. It would do you well to learn from the nearly 10 experienced cyclists on this thread just how to do it safely.
9 hours ago · 2

James Love However coming from Rocks Sir I always stay along the side walk to the Corliss Tunnel, however from there in is suicidal. I say cross over use side walk to first traffic light then use GAP to Station Square until a trail is put along the P&LE RR.
9 hours ago

James Love Stu I disagree all the way. I’m 49 and have rode bikes from Pittsburgh PA to Glen Burnie MD Clarion Zelienople Erie etc.., I’ve asked Officers other drivers and they say I’m correct and that your all wrong. They tell me I’m doing biking properly.
9 hours ago

John Grabowski II dude as i was trying to explain if i’m i n the right side of the left hand lane cars will pass on both sides of me at excessive speed (nearly all breaking the speed limit!) and i would be trapped there until there was a break in traffic. what happens when i get to where i need to be to turn just stop and stand on the dotted line and wait while traffic speeds past on both sides.
9 hours ago

John Grabowski II somebody break out the pa statutes involving biking in pa and educate james on how to do biking properly.
9 hours ago

James Love NO John use Eighth and Amity as an example as going towards Kennywood but going down to the tracks. Yes in this case be in far left lane however leave room for trhe car to be on your left with fog line and the other two cars in their lanes to your right. That way the car can take to the left of you so you can be along the sidewalk when you make turn.
9 hours ago

James Love When coming down 5th Ave. at Robinson Street be on right side with sidewalk to right so traffic can be on your right. If making left on Birmingham Bridge keep to the right until you need to cross lanes to be in turning lane and then do the same as above post so its done safely.
9 hours ago

James Love Don’t be in far left of lane all the way down 5th
9 hours ago

John Grabowski II i would never willfully allow traffic at any speed to be both right and left of me at the same time. what if there’s a 2″ deep pothole? i either hit it blow out my tires and get run over, or swerve to avoid it and get run over. no the law says the lane is mine and i’ll take it every time.
9 hours ago

John Grabowski II the situations you are describing james are about the most dangerous things you could do.
9 hours ago

James Love Your in a turning lane turning left you must be in that lane. When riding down a road bikes are to be on right of road not to the left. Period.
9 hours ago

James Love Stu says to take up the whole lane at all times. That’s wrong and dangerous.
9 hours ago

James Love At a stop sign you must come to a complete stop and same with red lights.
9 hours ago

James Love Gentlemen I just spoke to a State Police Officer in Greensburg, he barified with me that I’m correct. If you would like to speak to him (724) 832-3288
8 hours ago

John Grabowski II if you are referring to stopping at red lights and stop signs, agreed you are right that is the law currently, i believe that was why stu started this thread in the first place, to educate folks on why that law should be revised.as far as taking the lane goes the law states that a cyclist may take the full lane at any time james, if the state cop doesn’t know that it wouldn’t suprise me but he is wrong.
8 hours ago

James Love John stopping at red lights and stop signs as a complete stop must not change for any reason. As far as a biker taking a lane I’d only do that if I were cresting a ridge as in being above Chestnut ridge riding down, or say coming down Browns Hill Road. All other times we are to be to the right along side walks and hill sides on a two lane highway.
8 hours ago

James Love If vehicles are parked we are to be beside parked and moving vehicles. In cases of when trucks and buses are there waiting to pass us have brains and wave them passed us letting them know we know they are there or pull over and wait until they have passed us.
8 hours ago

John Grabowski II i suggest you go to http://www.bikepgh.org and browse the message board it may be enlightening for you. i respect your right to your opinion as well as your demeanor in this discussion however i disagree with you. maybe we will meet on a group ride and compare riding styles and continue this conversation someday, until then i’m out.

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8 hours ago

James Love I’ll do that however the way your doing things now are deadly.
8 hours ago

Lyle Seaman Regrettably, police officers are no more knowledgeable about bicycle laws and bicycle safety than the average motorist is. I once had a cruiser cop get on his loudspeaker and tell me that I should be riding “closer to the cars” through the strip district – in clear contravention to the existing laws. I politely declined. About five minutes later, I found a bike cop and spoke to him, asking him to please encourage the precinct to provide some education to their officers. He replied “It’s hopeless, they say the same stupid shit to us all the time.” James, I agree with you that the law states that you must come to a complete stop at stop signs. I was proposing an alternate marking which is partway between a full stop, and a flying “yield”, but which would accommodate the way most people actually drive now. I wasn’t describing a roundabout (which is a 20mph operation on a bike) but what I consider to be a better, fairer, low-speed alternative to the “Idaho stop” proposal that treats bikes differently from cars at stop signs.
4 hours ago · 1

Lyle Seaman James, what do you think the average speed of traffic is from Forward to Forbes? I’m guessing it’s about 3 mph. I’ll have to measure it. Sunday, some git in a car yelled at me because I wasn’t going fast enough for him — at a red light. That’s right, there was a gap in front of me of about 5 yards to the bumper of the car that was stopped in front of me, and I was riding very, very slowly so that when the light changed I could accelerate away smoothly. This irritated him, and he felt entitled to yell at me about it. I remind you, the light was red. There sure are a lot of control freaks out there who think they have the right to dictate other people’s behavior, on purely aesthetic grounds. There’s a four-letter word for that which is polite, and a much longer word that isn’t.
4 hours ago

James Love I agref to a point. However more than the bikers that were killed on penn ave old us 30 were driving carelessly as stu wants and they lost there lives.
3 hours ago via mobile

Stuart Strickland Again, Jim, you are misinformed. The cyclists in those incidents were obeying the rules. The motorists were not. Also try explaining how a motorcycle cop, sent out to do traffic enforcement after one of those fatalities, himself was hit in much the same manner as one of the cyclists. It’s not the cyclists, Jim. Certainly not the dozen people on this thread. We know what we are talking about. You do not.
3 hours ago

Lyle Seaman “McClure’s license was suspended at the time of the accident… McClure was traveling at a high rate of speed and fled the scene.” Now, who was driving carelessly?
2 hours ago

Lyle Seaman “In Florida, a state with about 15.5 million legal drivers, 2.2 million people currently have suspended or revoked licenses, authorities say” I’ll bet the numbers for PA are similar.
2 hours ago

Bill Edmonds Mr. Love, you are about as lost and clueless on these issues as one person can be. It’s astounding that you seem to do some riding. You are making broad brush and absolute generalizations that don’t begin to connect with reality. For one thing, traffic laws are not written to cover all foreseeable road conditions, that would be impossible and ridiculous. It is up to the vehicle operator to interpret conditions on the road and ride safely as conditions warrant. And bicycle riders are vehicle operators under PA law.
2 hours ago

Bill Edmonds Want to drop some stats? I’m 53 years old and have been riding on the road since, gee wiz, 1974. Ridden across this continent and parts of another, if that’s in any way relevant. Have not yet been hit by a car. I follow traffic law to the extent th…See More
2 hours ago

James Love I used 2 ride bikes all over pa years ago. Didnt realise how bad it has gotten. However i have seen bikers doing crazy things lately that makes me wonder why they are still living. I have been away from pgh a lot in past 2 years so im not able to keep up when away as i normally do. I vary greatful 4 rail trails to stay off a lot of bad roads.
about an hour ago via mobile

Bill Edmonds Unfortunately I don’t have a rail trail from my house in Robinson to work downtown, 9,5 mi. one way. Do it 2 or 3 times a week. And I have never seen a bad road. Only bad drivers.
about an hour ago

James Love true? how far do you live from montour or panhandle trails?
about an hour ago

Bill Edmonds About a mile from the Montour, 4-5 from the Panhandle. Never ride them. I usually ride a road bike.
about an hour ago

Bill Edmonds Those walkers on the trails with their dogs and kids do too much crazy stuff for my tastes.
about an hour ago

James Love Things will be far worse when spc starts bike lanes and rapid bus from town to oakland to sq hill and shadyside. won’t be enough room.
about an hour ago

James Love at least you don’t have speeding vehicles to get to airport robinson mall IKEA to get PAT
about an hour ago

Stuart Strickland James. Your insistence at adhering to disproven ideology when 12 people are unanimously telling you you are wrong, is just amazing. Why do you do this? Can it possibly occur to you to consider the possibility that if 12 people are all saying the same thing, there might just be something in it that you can learn? Has learning ceased for you?
Myself, I just biked home, the last 20 or so minutes in dim light. I used East Street and Perry Highway, and where there were two lanes my direction, I took the right lane. The entire length of East Street, for example. Nothing even close to a problem. Cars went around me. That’s how it’s done. That last bit on Perry Hwy, I turned on my extra blinkies (I have three pointed backwards) as a safety precaution. Still, not a problem. 11 miles.
55 minutes ago · Edited

Bill Edmonds Not really clear on what all that means, but I ride on 60/Steubenville Pike pretty often, bookstore, haircut, etc. it’s not a big deal. Also re: the “rapid bus”, Forbes and Fifth devote far too much roadway to automobile traffic, that’s why pedestrians repeatedly get killed through there. It is not a highway. Bring on the bike and bus lanes.
56 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland James, you were in the same room as me for that public presentation by PAT on the BRT, so you cannot say you were not informed. What you are claiming is complete falsehood. None of what you said was voiced by anyone present. I detect a strong scent of Marty Griffin.
54 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Stu, come on, facts don’t matter if you really really really believe.
54 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland *giggle*
53 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Also, I missed whatever Marty Griffin has to do with anything. Except for being a sensationalizing attention starved hack.
52 minutes ago

James Love I will disaprove brt til i die for it’s a bad idea all the way in every manner. as far as bike lanes it will create more road radge accidents trafficjams deaths in near future.
51 minutes ago

James Love Marty has nothing to do with what I see daily with bikers and bad ideas
49 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Yeah ’cause I’m always hearing about all those road rage incidents in Amsterdam and Copenhagen. All over the news, it’s like the wild west over there.
49 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Also, Jim, I’ve ridden out past IKEA a bunch of times. I used to work at FedEx, remember? The Ikea to FedEx trip, and back, was something I did several times. There, too, I took the lane, and depending on where I was going, the lane I took was not necessarily the right lane. Bottom line, a bicycle is a vehicle, and entitled to use the entire lane, anywhere, at any time. That *is* the law.
47 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland My daughter was in Copenhagen on Thursday. I can’t wait to see the dozens of pictures she took.
46 minutes ago

James Love 60 is fine if bikers don’t hog lane all the time
44 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland I haven’t biked a lot of Steubenville Pike, but Perry Hwy looks just like it, and I take the lane there. Taking the lane is legal, and recommended.
39 minutes ago

James Love should not take lane for a full 1 mile let alone 15
38 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Why not? What is wrong with claiming a lane? You have not yet made that clear.
37 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds In that condition I usually ride in the right hand wheel-track, away from the debris of the shoulder, and away from the anti-freeze and oil droppings in the center. Cars are legally permitted to cross the center line to pass. That however is an entirely different set of conditions from riding in the city – refer to “operate the vehicle according to conditions”. In the city cyclists frequently must take the lane (please drop the “hogging” nomenclature, it is legal operation) to discourage impatient motor vehicle operators from illegally passing.
36 minutes ago

James Love keep it up and one day you will piss someone off and they will teach you why not
35 minutes ago

James Love i dear you to do that to a trucker for miles on on.
35 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland That is called something else: aggravated assault.
35 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Oh very nice, now providing a justification for vehicular assault. Outstanding move.
34 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland I don’t care what any driver thinks. It’s my lane. You can have it when I’m done.
34 minutes ago

James Love but you bikers are driving way to slow holding traffic
33 minutes ago

James Love it is not leagal to do that for miles on end
33 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Why is that a problem? I am going 22 mph in a posted 25 zone. Butler, Penn, Grant, Fifth.
33 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland It is TOO legal.
33 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland that is to say, It, too, is legal.
32 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds You bikers? Really? But dude, I thought you were a biker.
32 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland You may not like it, but it is legal.
32 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Also, bikers are not too slow for traffic, bicycles are traffic.
31 minutes ago

James Love i will show this to officers and they will say you can’t do that for you holding traffic
30 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland I just rode 22 miles today. Into the city from McCandless, and back out. Did not even come close to having a problem. A few places, where it made sense to, I pulled over and let people pass. If there was a parking lane I could pull over into for a bit if I was moving slower, fine, but once I ran out of space, I signaled and got back into the lane.
30 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland You don’t know case law. Those cases are nearly always decided in favor of the cyclist.
29 minutes ago

James Love not the wau drive at yellow lines
28 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Wut?
27 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Jim, what is your justification for wanting to do something dangerously? Adhering to the far right almost guarantees that you are going to run into a drain grate, gravel, or be doored. The serious problem I ran into last summer when I stayed too far right was that someone pushed me into the curb and I went flying. That would not have happened if I’d taken the lane.
27 minutes ago

James Love i do it safe never have a issue. your going to get hurt or killed with how you ride iin dangerous careless manner
25 minutes ago

James Love you are not to take lane at yellow line
24 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland I do not ride in a dangerous, careless manner. I am visible, I signal my intentions, I obey the law. What is it about that that you do not understand?
24 minutes ago

James Love you are to be at fog line
24 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds What the heckity heck is the fog line?
23 minutes ago

James Love and you hog full lane and hold traffic from moving
23 minutes ago

James Love fog line is white line to passenger side
22 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland When it is not safe to pass, you get in line behind what is in front of you, whether it is a tractor trailer, the mailman, a garbage truck, or a bicycle. It’s what you do. It’s called traffic. If that traffic has to go 14 mph in a 40 zone, then it goes 14 in a 40 zone. That’s just how it is.
22 minutes ago · 1

Stuart Strickland Justify why it should be any other way?
21 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds OOOhh, I refer to that as the “nails glass and debris line”.
21 minutes ago · 1

James Love your to be near the curb side at all times not all the way at double yellow lines
19 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Jim, answer the question. What is it about traffic that you feel that cyclists “hold traffic from moving”, where that cyclist feels unsafe pulling to the side?
18 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Forgot “[In my opinion] your (sic) to be near the curb side at all times not all the way at double yellow lines” Fixed it for ya.
17 minutes ago

James Love bikes can’t go say 50 rpms and law states bikes are to share road with vehicles but bikes are to keep to right
16 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds Forgot “…where safe and practicable”. There’s where interpretation comes in. Also u spell turribl for a 49 yr old.
14 minutes ago

Bill Edmonds And I can pedal 50 rpms easy.
13 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland You meant miles per hour. Anyway, you want to see state law? Here is Title 75, Chapter 35, concerning pedalcycles.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/75/00.035..HTM

Chapter 35 – Title 75 – VEHICLES
http://www.legis.state.pa.us
(a) General rule.–Every person riding a pedalcycle upon a roadway shall be gra…
See More
13 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Chapter 33 is Rules of the Road In General.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/75/00.033..HTM

Chapter 33 – Title 75 – VEHICLES
http://www.legis.state.pa.us
(a) General rule.–Upon all roadways of sufficient width, a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway except as follows:
13 minutes ago

James Love my spelling is bad and laying down at shelter. sorry sir
12 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Chapter 31 is Operation of Vehicles. Enjoy the reading.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/75/00.031..HTM

Chapter 31 – Title 75 – VEHICLES
http://www.legis.state.pa.us
(a) General rule.–Except as provided in subsection (b), the provisions of this…
See More
12 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland Miscellaneous provisions in Chapter 37. 3705 concerns “dooring”, for example, one of the reasons NOT to keep to the right.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/75/00.037..HTM

Chapter 37 – Title 75 – VEHICLES
http://www.legis.state.pa.us
(a) General rule.–No person driving or in charge of a motor vehicle shall perm…
See More
10 minutes ago

James Love show me where we are to bike at yellow line and hog whole lane so no other vehicle can pass
9 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland The 12 people you have been arguing with all day are very well versed in PA motor vehicle law. I recommend again that you stop arguing nonsense and try to learn something from us. That specifically means UNLEARNING some incorrect stuff you’ve picked up somewhere.
9 minutes ago

Stuart Strickland It is not “hogging” it, it is “owning” it. You’re behind me, you stay there. Too bad.
8 minutes ago

James Love i’ll stop arguing when you she me we are to block full lane to be at yellow line for miles on end and prevent traffic from passing bikes
7 minutes ago

Paul S. Heckbert The PA Vehicle Code says:

Sec 3301(b):
“(1) Upon all roadways, any pedalcycle operating in accordance with Chapter 35, proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and
passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into an alley, private road or driveway.
(2) This subsection does not apply to:
(i) A pedalcycle using any portion of an available roadway due to unsafe surface conditions.
(ii) A pedalcycle using a roadway that has a width of not more than one lane of traffic in each direction.”
5 minutes ago

Paul S. Heckbert The PA Vehicle Code says:

Sec 3505(c):
“A pedalcycle operated at slower than prevailing speed shall be operated in accordance with the provisions of
section 3301 (relating to driving on right side of roadway) unless it is unsafe to do so.”

Sec. 3501(a). “Every person riding a pedalcycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle…”
5 minutes ago

Paul S. Heckbert My interpretation of the PA Vehicle Code: The law does not require bicycles to keep to the right of the road if a) making a left turn, or b) traveling as fast as other traffic, or c) there is only one lane in the direction of travel, or d) passing slower vehicles, or e) dodging potholes, loose gravel, sticks, or other obstacles, or f) keeping right would be unsafe for other reasons. It implies that riding very close to parked cars is not required by law, since the risk of getting doored would make it unsafe to be that far right. And it implies that when turning left, staying at the right or left of the lane is not required by law, since that would be unsafe (cars passing you on both sides). The law says nothing about cyclists using a crosswalk to make turns.
4 minutes ago


Marko82

Private Message

May 14 2013 at 10:41pm #

In James’ defense, how would the “normal” person know what the law is concerning bicycles? You dont have to learn it when you go to get your first license, and they never make you learn it after that card is in your wallet, never. He is now in discussions with Stu and others and refuses to read the texts that are in front of him. He can probably drive improperly for decades without any fear of getting a ticket too, since we know how often the police write tickets for speeding, etc.

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