BikePGH!

Suffer fools gladly

This topic contains 93 replies, has 28 voices, and was last updated by  edmonds59 1 mo, 2 weeks.

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salty

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May 14 2013 at 10:59pm #

I should have just stayed away…


quizbot

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May 14 2013 at 11:35pm #

I don’t see how it’s worth arguing any point whatsoever with a person who consistently misuses “your” vs. “you’re”. If they can’t work that basic concept through their head, good luck with anything else that requires comprehensive skill.


pinky

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May 15 2013 at 8:20am #

quizbot, please be careful when generalizing about people’s writing. It’s an easy cop out.

I’m a writer and used to be very judgmental about grammar, spelling, and usage. My husband, who is a brilliant programmer and “math type” brain, has a hard time with spelling and grammar. It doesn’t mean he’s stupid or unable to do things with skill. IMing with him has really opened my eyes to how other brains work.

I’m not saying that the guy above’s argument is valid or OK. I just don’t think writing him off as “unable to write, therefore unable to learn” is valuable.


jonawebb

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May 15 2013 at 8:46am #

@marko, ++, also, the situation is pretty complicated WRT bicycles. We’ve had discussions here on when it is legal to take the lane and I’m not 100% convinced that the answer we came up with (always) would stand up in court. We also concluded that cyclist must always turn right at an intersection with a right-turn-only lane, which makes no sense whatsoever. And don’t get me started on filtering. Plus, what Stu was arguing was the stop sign law doesn’t make sense and isn’t followed, especially for bicycles, so let’s change it. That is a tricky position to argue with someone who thinks cyclists should follow the law more often (and we all have seen cyclists ignore the law) for their own safety.


JaySherman5000

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May 15 2013 at 8:53am #

“We also concluded that cyclist must always turn right at an intersection with a right-turn-only lane, which makes no sense whatsoever.”

No, we certainly did not. I remember that thread (though I don’t have the patience to try to use the search tool to find it). If you are traveling straight through such an intersection, you simply take the left lane (i.e. move out of the right-turn-only lane) and proceed straight through the intersection. That is what is safely practicable and in accordance with the law.

As far as filtering, there is a PA Bicycle Operator’s handbook out there that implies (and stops short of explicitly endorsing) that filtering is okay. I might waste some time trying to dig up a link…

Chapter Three near the bottom of the page seems to cover the right-turn-only lane situation. I’ll see if I can get to the part about filtering…

Chapter Ninegives the follwing advice concerning traffic jams:

“Traffic jams don’t have to stop you — that’s one of the biggest advantages of bicycling in the city. But in the tight quarters of a tie-up, take extra care. Stopped cars in a traffic jam present the same hazards as parked cars: blindspots, doors and unpredictable starts and turns…If the street is completely plugged, pick your way forward slowly and with your hands on the brake levers.”


JaySherman5000

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May 15 2013 at 9:16am #

Here’s the the pdf of Pub 380 in case anyone wants to print it. It’s published by PennDOT, which as far as I’m concerned makes it the word from on high. It basically endorses treating traffic signals that can’t detect your bike as stop signs, filtering, and taking the lane. If this manual doesn’t convince a police officer or magistrate that you were acting as instructed by the state, I think little else will.


Marko82

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May 15 2013 at 9:27am #

@stu, when arguing for the Idaho-stop law you may want to bring up the “new” law passed back in the 1970s that allows cars to make right turns on red with caution after coming to a full stop (ha!). The gas crisis was the excuse given for this law, but it is analogous to the Idaho law in that it really doesn’t make any sense to sit there burning gas when nothing is coming. Likewise it makes no sense to have cyclist come to a complete foot-down stop when it would be safe to just slow down then proceed if clear. And how many drivers come to a full stop versus treating it more like a yield? You could even have “no Idaho stop” signs at those intersections deemed too unsafe for cyclists to do so.


buffalo buffalo

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May 15 2013 at 10:25am #

You could I suppose try pointing them at this ancient Metafilter Ride-of-Silence thread:

I hate to be all “what about all the children” on you, but the majority of cyclist fatalities are under 15*, so all the ranting about lycra wearing daredevils running stop signs smacks of ignorance and willful prejudice.

I think we can all agree on a world where everyone, including children, cyclists, pedestrians and the mentally and physically disabled, can have freedom of mobility without the absurd and totally preventable statistic that 1 out of 81 of them will be dead before their time because of an automobile. I might even posit that drunkards, self-righteous environmentalists, unicyclists and diet coke drinkers deserve freedom of mobility and safety within the transit system, too. I might even posit that folks who work full time but who are still below the poverty line deserve freedom of mobility and safety within the transit system, too.

But, yeah, you are privileged enough to have full capacity of sight and ability and an extra $7000/year to burn on fuel, loans and maintenance.

That’s great. But keep your mother fucking privileged attitude to your god damned self. Self-righteous cyclists, my ass. I’ll stop being self-righteous when you stop being totally ignorant of anybody who doesn’t, by choice or by circumstance, fit your middle-to-upper class yuppie consumerist model. Multi-modal transit works (for everyone). Single occupant vehicle commuting works for you and you alone for now and now alone. Single occupant vehicle transit is a threat to everyone’s safety, environmental health, free time and freedom. Just because you think your car makes you free doesn’t mean it works to increase society’s freedom.

* – Pittsburgh note: As I’m sure we’re all familiar, in the last month two children were hit, one of them killed, by cars while cycling on neighborhood streets…

[edit: Mboard apparently doesn't believe in paragraphs within blockquotes. stupid stupid stupid.]


Drewbacca

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May 15 2013 at 11:00am #

hahaha a day later and the thread is still alive!


edmonds59

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May 15 2013 at 11:12am #

bb – damn, I like that. Alot.


Mick

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May 15 2013 at 11:55am #

Bill Edmonds “I have never seen a bad road, only bad drivers.”

Bravo to the 59er!


edmonds59

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May 16 2013 at 6:04am #

At the Ride of Silence, as people spoke, there was talk of legislation, better facilities, enforcement, big picture stuff. But it occurs to me that this is the hand to hand combat part of the engagement. We may just have to chase these dumbasses down one at a time in their trenches and rat holes, corner them, and shine the 1,000 watt spotlight in their faces and make it clear that we are not going anywhere. I’m in.


StuInMcCandless

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May 16 2013 at 6:31am #

Precisely.
Mr. Love, and others of that same ilk, like to change the subject when cornered. I don’t know if they realize they can’t win at that point, or not. That’s the moment of truth. Might take 50 exchanges on a Facebook thread, may even take having to meet them face to face. Still gotta keep cool, somehow.


edmonds59

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May 16 2013 at 7:37am #

James “Loves” comment on CBS local regarding the ride – I am so fucking pissed off right now I want to kick in a fucking wall.


salty

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May 16 2013 at 8:28am #

Sorry Stu, I’m with Edmonds. I tried to be civil but that guy is a shitbag and all that’s happening on that FB thread is a lot of people wasting their time while giving him some kind of twisted ego trip.


Drewbacca

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May 16 2013 at 10:52am #

The *comments* section on any news-site as well as commenting on facebook is the internet’s version of arguing with someone who just had ten beers… it’s an unproductive black hole that is best avoided.


edmonds59

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May 17 2013 at 6:28am #

I don’t known what the hell Stu did but it’s hugs all around now. Stu ain’t skeered of no stinking black hole, he jumps in with neurons blazing.


Drewbacca

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May 17 2013 at 6:51am #

I meant as a general policy… I just try to avoid what I call the peanut-gallery. That said, Stu IS the man!


StuInMcCandless

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May 17 2013 at 11:18am #

I really like Bill’s hand-to-hand combat analogy. This is, indeed, where it really counts. This guy is truly a loose cannon, but occasionally I can get through to him.

And so must we all. Everyone has a Jim Love in their life, somewhere, and many of them drive, and vote, and call radio call-in shows, and have precious little else to do in life besides make life difficult for others.

2 Corinthians 11:19 (KJV), reads “For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.”

Sometime over a beer/cuppajoe/whatever, we can talk about the deeper meaning of things. I am not a Bible thumper. But Jim Love is. Go figure.


edmonds59

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May 17 2013 at 11:48am #

I suspected as much. Coincides neatly with the belief in absolutes, everything in black and white, no grays allowed. Which I have little to no tolerance for. I am more of the school of thought that, without doubt, or examination of your own beliefs, faith itself cannot exist.


paulheckbert

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May 17 2013 at 1:27pm #

I’m pretty sure that 2 Corinthians 11:20 (KJV) says “Taketh thee the right hand lane, whilst pedaling, lest ye be stricken by wayward car doors or car drivers of feeble mind”.


melange396

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May 17 2013 at 1:46pm #

@paulheckbert: it turns out that verse is apocryphal, research has shown that corinthians drove on the left side of the road


Mick

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May 17 2013 at 2:04pm #

When I get to a traffic light and find that there is no oncoming traffic, but my light is still red? Well, obviously that is a malfunctioning red light, isn’t it? I legally proceed with caution.


StuInMcCandless

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Sep 8 2013 at 1:10pm #

Follow-up: The above discussion continued, off and on, over the last 3+ months. I finally cut him off and unfriended him. He has not changed his mind in the slightest. He still thinks automobiles are entitled to travel down the street at close to the speed limit without having to slow for cyclists, and that cyclists should hug the door zone, never take the lane except when flying down a hill at 30+ mph, move out of the way any time a car comes up behind them, and to do anything else is suicidal. Argument after argument, weekend after weekend, it never quit.

He is not alone. There are many others just like him, impervious to learning, blind to understanding, and convinced they are in the right.

Also, Thomas Bennett now drives a bus.

We have a LOT of work to do. Don’t waste your time on fools.


Drewbacca

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Sep 8 2013 at 4:30pm #

FWIW, I agree with him in some specific scenarios… just not as a general rule. My problem with his positions was that he couldn’t get past the difference between good-judgement and legal-obligation. An uninformed cop’s position on traffic law is meaningless if it’s contrary to the actual law. It may be poor judgement to take the lane in some scenarios… but it is still a legally protected right (as it should be).


StuInMcCandless

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Sep 8 2013 at 5:02pm #

That is some of why I put up with him for so long. He had just enough of a shred of a credible line of reasoning (as in this post) to want to give him a hearing.

But his steadfast refusal to accept statute law, while in the next breath complaining about cyclists breaking the law, took up way too much time and energy. You see one conversation above. There must have been a half dozen of those since May. That one went on for four days. The turning point was this argument, which continued on after this for several days in PMs (which, being private, I will not share). You can see his constant repetition of the same thought.

There are more like him. We can’t change them. We can only inform the reasoning people, and there are a lot more of them.


jonawebb

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Sep 8 2013 at 6:06pm #

Most folks are just uninformed, or doubt whether they’re hearing the unbiased truth from us. Using e.g. the PA Bicycle Driver’s manual as a reference works well with these people.


StuInMcCandless

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Sep 12 2013 at 4:47pm #

I said this guy was dangerous. He got Bike-Pgh’s Facebook page pulled down.

Confession here, in a text directly to me, 3pm today, referring to Dan Y. I told Bike-Pgh staff about it in an email earlier.

“Im glad biker lived. Prayfully he and rest of bikers learn to share road with rert [sic: "rest"] of traffic and stop hogging road and stop suisidal [sic] acts. Even fb p”

“Even eb pulled bike pgh site down by my request after they saw it was teaching wrong.”

[emphasis mine, text his, character for character]

Note: I have made zero effort to respond to him in any way since September 8.


Drewbacca

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Sep 12 2013 at 5:33pm #

Gotta link to his own fb page? If enough people flag it as a fake acct, they will pull his personal page down as well, no questions asked.. b/c that is how fb rolls.

Not to be mean and/or target him or anything like that… but getting a legit facebook page taken down over a difference of opinion is harassment pure and simple.


edmonds59

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Sep 12 2013 at 6:05pm #

So one fringe individual who is more than a few cards short of a full deck is able to get a legit orgs page taken down? How does that work? What an asshole. That is infuriating.


StuInMcCandless

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Sep 12 2013 at 6:26pm #

Click on one of the links to one of my Fb posts in the Sept 8 @ 5:02pm post above. You will find all manner of posts of his. Just sayin’.

And, yeah, how does one person (who has a history of his own with Facebook) manage to get the main page of a legitimate organization taken down? Oh, to have such power with organizations which really matter, like politicians and mass media. Oh wait.


Drewbacca

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Sep 12 2013 at 6:31pm #

that’s fb for ya… they have a bad habit of action before investigation. I’m sure the bikepgh page will be back as soon as someone contacts them and they realize that it is a legit organization.

Insult to injury is that I imagine that his complaint to FB had nothing to do with any official position of BikePgh the organization and that it was strictly a reflection on his disagreements with any of us who have engaged him in the past. The worst part, he finds further confirmation in his unfounded opinion… right, because the guy who writes bicycling laws works for FB and would close down a page over bicycling law.


cburch

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Sep 12 2013 at 10:46pm #

He’s also recently taken to trolling the Bikes Belong in the Traffic Lane page on FB.


edmonds59

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Sep 13 2013 at 5:30am #

Thanks!


cburch

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Sep 13 2013 at 8:06am #

StuInMcCandless wrote:I said this guy was dangerous. He got Bike-Pgh’s Facebook page pulled down.

Confession here, in a text directly to me, 3pm today, referring to Dan Y. I told Bike-Pgh staff about it in an email earlier.

“Im glad biker lived. Prayfully he and rest of bikers learn to share road with rert [sic: "rest"] of traffic and stop hogging road and stop suisidal [sic] acts. Even fb p”

“Even eb pulled bike pgh site down by my request after they saw it was teaching wrong.”

[emphasis mine, text his, character for character]

Note: I have made zero effort to respond to him in any way since September 8.

do you have screencaps of this? our fearless benefactors asked me to have you email to their personal email addresses if you do. it will help them with getting the FB page turned back on. text, tweet or FB message me for the email addresses.


erok

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Sep 13 2013 at 9:33am #

It’s been down a week now. facebook has not responded to multiple requests, given multiple different ways, and we’ve reached out to personal contacts there. the link they provided to challenge the takedown is a dead, broken link (remember that next time there’s a bug on this messageboard).

It’s truly unbelievable. we’re almost out of our “proper” channels, so we may have to do something public


JaySherman5000

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Sep 13 2013 at 10:04am #

erok wrote:It’s been down a week now. facebook has not responded to multiple requests, given multiple different ways, and we’ve reached out to personal contacts there. the link they provided to challenge the takedown is a dead, broken link (remember that next time there’s a bug on this messageboard).

It’s truly unbelievable. we’re almost out of our “proper” channels, so we may have to do something public

The best solution I can come up with is two-pronged:

1) Post a thread on here with a link to the asshat in question’s fb page. Ask users of this board to flag his account for harassment, citing the BikePGH fb page takedown, along with his constant trolling of Stu, as proof of harassment.

2) Make a new fb account for BikePGH. In less than an hour, you could probably have a new page set up and active while you wait for fb to respond to your earlier appeal. All you should need is to use a different email account than was used for the first BikePGH fb page.


edmonds59

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Sep 13 2013 at 10:16am #

Cburch, is the full name of that fb page “bicyclists belong in the….”? I didn’t find one that’s just “bikes belong…”.


RustyRed

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Sep 13 2013 at 10:19am #

edmonds59 wrote:Cburch, is the full name of that fb page “bicyclists belong in the….”? I didn’t find one that’s just “bikes belong…”.

Here ya go:

https://www.facebook.com/BicyclistsBelongInTheTrafficLane?fref=ts


edmonds59

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Sep 13 2013 at 10:31am #

JaySherman5000 wrote:1) Post a thread on here with a link to the asshat in question’s fb page. Ask users of this board to flag his account for harassment, citing the BikePGH fb page takedown, along with his constant trolling of Stu, as proof of harassment.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to propagate that action on the message board. Especially with Bike Pgh trying to gets their page back to active.
Otherwise, I approve of the action. Plausible deniability, yada, yada…

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