BikePGH!

Tour de France

This topic contains 107 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  Mikhail 1 yr.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 108 total)
 
Author Posts
Author Posts

AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe

Private Message

Jul 11 2013 at 12:25pm #

The TDF leader and ultimate winner are determined by their cumulative time over the 21 stages. That yields a winner who (theoretically) is a more well-rounded rider – and not just a specialist (note Cavendish is never anywhere near the GC lead).

It also means that in some stages, the GC or overall leader is “back in the pack.” That’s because the leader need not win stages – they merely have to finish ahead of, or with, their competitors.

It says a lot about Froome that he has maintained his lead on a mountain stage (after his team had disintegrated and he was alone fending off Movistar attacks) and a TT – he’s a specialist at neither discipline, and yet he added to his lead. Good stuff.


Marko82

Private Message

Jul 11 2013 at 12:28pm #

Live Euro-Sport feeds of the tour (look for English links further down the page). There are some annoying adds, but its free…

http://www.cyclingfans.com/tour-de-france/live


edmonds59

Private Message

Jul 11 2013 at 12:40pm #

Froome is showing himself to be a total badass. No whining last year when he supported Wiggo, no whining this year when he got left out alone. Barring any catastrophe if he holds on to win that will be very satisfying.
I like Cavendish a bit more if only for the Specialized/Isle of Man commercials (on NBC). I love those.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 8:12am #

I guess my real gripe about yesterday’s stage was just that the terrain and length gave zero separation among the riders. I think it’s obvious that any grand tour should be a test to find the best all-around rider, but to me, that’s better accomplished by designing stages with mixed terrain. Comparing the profiles of stage 12 and stage 14, I think stage 14 has a much better design. There are climbs, descents, and flats sprinkled throughout the course. Stage 12 is practically a beach cruise. Even stage 2 had enough vertical challenge to make the ride interesting. Again, I’m not saying that climbing is the be-all end-all of cycling, but there should be a reasonable amount of elevation gain to any meaningful stage in a grand tour, just as there should be descents (this is where I would link to “Cancellara’s descent” on youtube, but I can’t bc I’m at work).

My personal preference for bicycle cycle race watching are the Spring Classics. In my mind, the ideal race course should be challenging enough to cause attrition through the peloton, and I think Paris-Roubaix is the best example of that. I’m not expecting cobblestones to show up in the TdF anytime soon (wouldn’t that be exciting!). Then again maybe Paris-Roubaix spoiled my expecation of bike race finishes. Is it really common to see 90+ riders get the same finishing time in a given race?


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 9:07am #

JaySherman5000 wrote:I think it’s obvious that any grand tour should be a test to find the best all-around rider, but to me, that’s better accomplished by designing stages with mixed terrain.

Why? Anyone can say that this is obvious to him/her… In my mind all round bicyclist is like one universal bike — kind of ok (you can do it not much more) on road, in mountains, CX, downhill but do not excel in each event. Goals for sprinters and climbers are opposite ones.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 9:31am #

@Mikhail: when I think of a 21-stage cycling event that bills itself as the most important race of them all, I assume it’s going to include a variety of topographical challenges. That should necessitate that the winner is well-rounded enough to not be dropped on the sprints, maintain good form on the climbs, and put out sufficient power to stay alive in the time trials.

Based on what I’ve seen so far (across races for the last few years), a rider (or team of riders) would have to be head and shoulders above the rest of the peloton to gain a time advantage on a flat stage. Sure, you can win the stage and earn points by sprinting, but it seems unlikely that the yellow jersey can be taken that way. The time trials and the mountains seem like the only place where any rider can hope to gain time on the leader, so stages like yesterdays seem futile. In fairness, maybe it was simply team tactics that held everyone together in stage 12, but I still think more hills would’ve made for a more interesting finish.

FWIW, I do enjoy watching Sagan kick ass. He really seems like the class clown that also makes the honor roll but doesn’t really give a shit either way. And his podium appearances can be…colorful?


mr marvelous

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 10:07am #

I have lost complete and all respect for Peter Sagan after he sexually harassed that podium girl and then her complaints were dismissed as him just having fun.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 10:24am #

@mr marvelous: I actually can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or sincere. Regardless, there was quite a bit of rage by a lot of people over that incident, Sagan apologized several times for it, and IIRC, he even gave flowers to Maja (aka “the podium girl”) as an apology before the Ronde. I don’t think any of that is consistent with simply dismissing the incident as him “just having fun.” He made an error, he was called out for it, and he did what he could to correct it. If that isn’t enough to restore his credibility as a decent person, what is?


mr marvelous

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 10:35am #

@JaySherman5000 Apologize and gives her flowers, well that should make it all better. I mans credibility on respecting a woman is shown by never disrespecting her to begin with. He did a couple things to save his public image as many public figures do. When you touch a woman against her will it is sexual harassment or assault, flowers and apology don’t correct that. Cycling is his career and he did that while working. If I did that at my job to a lady would saying sorry and giving flowers saves my job.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 10:58am #

@MM: Fair enough, but how do you know the apology wasn’t sincere? The fact is, we can’t know either way whether or not Sagan was actually sorry for his actions. I’m taking the less cynical viewpoint and giving him the benefit of the doubt. I totally believe that he was just acting out of youthful stupidity when he touched Maja, and I hope he has since learned a lesson about respecting boundaries.

As for the consequences of doing something like that at work, I think that depends very much on your employer’s HR department. Some would probably only give a simple write-up for a first offense, while others might fire you on the spot. There’s no universal standard to be applied.


mr marvelous

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 11:08am #

Youthful stupidity excuse has been used far to much to excuse sexual assault. Sexual harassment/ assault is a criminal offense. If an employer chooses not to act properly they are also liable for charges and/ or lawsuit.
As far as the sincerity of his apology it doesn’t matter if he is truly sorry or not, it is not relevant after he assaults her.


sew

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 11:33am #

re: Elevation changes on the tdf.

I like the flat stages. Not as much as a good battle with a mountain top finish but all the same, I do enjoy the bunch sprint days. It shows cases other talents. I don’t want to see a field of 198 riders each weighing as much as a jockey riding mountain for 21 days. The diversity keeps it interesting. As much as I am amazed at the best climbers, I’m also amazed at the speeds of the top sprinters.

Only change I’d like to see on flat stages would be that I’d like to see time taken at the 3km mark and the order taken at the finish line. That would allow the gc contenders get the same time and then drop back out of harms way while the sprint teams battle for the win.

I haven’t seen it yet but from the rundown, today’s flat (except for one hill) stage had a big impact on the gc.


Lee

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 11:44am #

Sagan was wrong and acted out of line, no question. He treated her like a piece of meat. Organizers having a stable of coiffed hotties there to kiss the winners is only a step or two less disgusting in my book though.

Sends the message that men are valued for their accomplishments and women for their looks. It’s still true a lot of times, but why glorify something we all say we disagree with?


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 11:54am #

@MM: I don’t think youth and stupidity excuse anything, but they certainly might explain why the act was committed in the first place. That said, I agree that Sagan deserved more (or any) punishment, but I don’t think it’s fair to condemn him for life as a misogynist/pervert/whatever over one incident. If there’s a pattern of behavior that continues, that’s another story.

@sew: I think today’s stage may have changed my mind about the relevance of flat(-er) stages in the TdF. There was quite a bit of activity on the GC leader board. Then again, maybe Froome is saving himself for the mountains…


jonawebb

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 12:11pm #

I have to say I’m having a hard time accusing a young man of harassment or assault when he responds to a young attractive woman who was hired to kiss him in the same way he might respond to a young attractive woman who he knows socially kissing him. Most of the fault has to lie with the people who hired the woman in the first place.


Chris Mayhew

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 12:33pm #

Today a perfect example of why they have flat stages in the Tour.


mr marvelous

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 12:37pm #

I do think the podium girl routine needs to go away, in my opinion women have come a long way and it’s a setback. However no matter how a woman is dressed, acts, or her profession she has the right to set boundaries that should never be violated.
Keep bringing up his youth as an excuse doesn’t work for me. It is also common that men defend men who have done wrong to women as men on this board are doing.
I have been hugged and kissed by young ladies in the same way as on the podium but I never felt it was an invitation to molest them. If a woman’s mouth says no but her body says yes listen to her mouth and we would never have this conversation.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 1:25pm #

@double-M: As I said above, I’m not using Sagan’s youth as an excuse for anything. I was merely presenting it as an insight into why a man might think it’s okay in the first place: in this case, young Pete has come up in a world where the institutional degradation of women happens daily at the hands of his employer. Is it any suprise then that he might be tempted to commit such a degrading act himself?

I think where our dissent begins is with the severity of the incident. Is one case of grabass enough to justify marking a man with a scarlet “M” (for molester) for life? I think, in this case, no, it isn’t. Remorse was expressed, amends were made with the victim, and so far there is no reason to think a pattern of behavior has been established. If the victim expressed more concern, if pinchey Pete were still at it, or if he never bothered to try and apologize, I think then there would be a case for harsher judgement.

Then there’s the question of redemption: is Sagan (or anyone) incapable of reform and of redeeming himself? I don’t know much about his personal life, but I tend to think that most people are capable of reform. If Sagan starts wearing “No means yes, yes means anal” t-shirts, then maybe my opinion of him will change. Until then, I have no reason to think that he can’t be taught appropriate behavior and learn to practice it.


edmonds59

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 1:57pm #

I don’t know any of the details of the Sagan thing, but it seems to me that if the woman decided not to press any charges, as seems likely, for fear of jeopardizing her position or income, the Tour organizers should have taken appropriate action, whether it was a fine, temporary suspension, or whatever, so Peter would pay his debt to society, learn his lesson, and the world could move on. That burden, or failure, would be on the Tour, as far as I’m concerned.
Appropriate punishments for anything are a broad spectrum depending on the society you exist in. In France maybe he gets a stern finger-wagging, in Egypt maybe he gets a hand cut off. Who knows. This is perhaps one realm we in the US are a bit ahead of other countries, we have been on a course toward getting it right, haltingly.
To brand someone a sex offender or criminal for life due to a stupid juvenile butt pinch, eh, seems a bit too far toward the cutting off the hand end of the spectrum.


quizbot

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 2:08pm #

Paging @stefb: Let Women Ride In The Tour De France, Cyclists Say In Petition

Calling road cycling “one of the worst offenders” in gender inequity, four elite female athletes have created a petition to ask the sport’s hallmark event, the Tour de France, to include women next year. Citing the inclusion of women at the world’s top marathons, the petition’s authors say, “After a century, it is about time women are allowed to race the Tour de France, too.”

Petition is here.


edmonds59

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 2:21pm #

I’m experiencing lots of self-correction today, for whatever reason. Having said what I said about attitudes in this country, I remain appalled that here things like “The Tilted Kilt”, Hooters, and the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders can exist as viable things here. Big WTF? I am vastly more offended by those things than I am by a couple of decently dressed young women handing over trophies and kisses at the Tour. And Bernard Hinault kisses the podium winners in the same way too for what it’s worth.


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 2:45pm #

mr marvelous wrote:When you touch a woman against her will it is sexual harassment or assault, flowers and apology don’t correct that.

MM, this is a very culture dependent. I know cases when if you don’t do those things then it considered to be a disrespect.


jonawebb

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 3:02pm #

steevo wrote:

But does this mean no women are strong enough to win the TdF, or that they aren’t strong enough to, say, ride as part of a team? I know there are some pretty old riders in the TdF. Are they all still at the international level?


Steven

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 3:31pm #

I understand Sagan was born and raised in Slovakia, where the culture may permit this sort of thing more (as in Italy, from what I’ve read). In moments of excitement, some people fall back to their native language, not the one appropriate for where they are. Perhaps likewise this behavior.

One incident, with an apology? Not a big deal, I’d say.


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 3:33pm #

quizbot wrote:Paging @stefb: Let Women Ride In The Tour De France, Cyclists Say In Petition

Calling road cycling “one of the worst offenders” in gender inequity, four elite female athletes have created a petition to ask the sport’s hallmark event, the Tour de France, to include women next year. Citing the inclusion of women at the world’s top marathons, the petition’s authors say, “After a century, it is about time women are allowed to race the Tour de France, too.”

Petition is here.

Today’s stage is 173 km. Cavendish (and the rest of 9) finished in 3 hours 40 minutes 08 seconds. It’s 13.1 m/s or 47.15 km/h or 29.47 mph of average speed.

http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2013/docs/TDF13_reglement_BD.pdf — page 33
ARTICLE 22
Permitted finishing times

Even we take coefficient 3 (22%) it’s only 48 minutes 27 seconds. And I don’t believe it’s 3, it looks like 2. Whoever finished with time 4h 28m 36 s and longer should be eliminated from the race. If coefficient is 2 then 18% of allowance time is 39 minutes and 39 seconds.

If UCI just let women bike with men without changing the rules then, I think, we will see whole team elimination in few starting stages. :(

So I think those four ladies would like to have a women competition as in Olympics separated from men. But on the same course and at the same time so mass media would show it too.


buffalo buffalo

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 3:35pm #

Mikhail wrote:I know cases when if you don’t do those things then it considered to be a disrespect.

Returning a greeting kiss is one thing. Grabbing someone’s ass is something else entirely.


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 4:38pm #

jonawebb wrote:
But does this mean no women are strong enough to win the TdF,

This is correct.

or that they aren’t strong enough to, say, ride as part of a team?

Depends on a stage (if we are talking about TDF or other big multistage race). If stage has a lot of 1 and HC climbs then a lot women would be eliminated by “Permitted Finishing Time” Rule — http://www.letour.fr/le-tour/2013/docs/TDF13_reglement_BD.pdf article 22 for TDF.

Also, they would be eliminated in TT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_time_trial :
Date 19 September 2012
Distance 46.2 km (28.71 mi)
Winning time 58′ 38.76″ (47.267 km/h or 29.370 mph)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Women%27s_time_trial :

Date 18 September 2012
Distance 24.3 km (15.10 mi)
Winning time 32′ 26.46″ (44.573 km/h or 27.696 mph)

Course is almost twice shorter and speed is lower.

I know there are some pretty old riders in the TdF. Are they all still at the international level?

TDF is controlled by UCI.


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 4:40pm #

buffalo buffalo wrote:

Mikhail wrote:I know cases when if you don’t do those things then it considered to be a disrespect.

Returning a greeting kiss is one thing. Grabbing someone’s ass is something else entirely.

In american culture — yes. I know cases when grabbing was not just accepted but almost required. I don’t like it either and it was a man dominated culture but nevertheless.


helen s

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 4:42pm #

For podiums in women’s races in Europe, do they have cute guys give awards and kisses?


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 4:45pm #

helen s wrote: For podiums in women’s races in Europe, do they have cute guys give awards and kisses?

I was thinking the same. :) But I don’t remember seeing one. Usually girls or officials.


JaySherman5000

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 6:52pm #

I guess a more provocative question for the Sagan saga would be: why can’t I harass you?


Chris Mayhew

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 7:00pm #

@Jay, Yes, they are all international class. No one (anymore) is riding the Tour for training or just to ride. Everyone is expected to contribute. Even the older guys are doing well (Jens Voigt, for instance, who came quite close to a stage win)


AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 8:35pm #

Separate, but equal?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campaign-launched-for-a-womens-tour-de-france-in-2014


Mikhail

Private Message

Jul 12 2013 at 11:42pm #

AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe wrote:Separate, but equal?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campaign-launched-for-a-womens-tour-de-france-in-2014

This is the best case. The same time frame, the same stages. Would mass media cover the event the same way as men’s one? This is a question. Sponsors are another tough problem.


stefb

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 6:01am #

helen s wrote: For podiums in women’s races in Europe, do they have cute guys give awards and kisses?

Yeah that is kind of insulting that they use women in that way. Unfortunately, it is still that way in other sports. Not to get off topic, but I am really not pleased with women’s roles at Interbike, too.


steevo

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 9:07am #

All things addressed in this thread have been beaten to death on
the internet already.


gg

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 11:05am #

edmonds59 wrote:I’m experiencing lots of self-correction today, for whatever reason. Having said what I said about attitudes in this country, I remain appalled that here things like “The Tilted Kilt”, Hooters, and the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders can exist as viable things here. Big WTF? I am vastly more offended by those things than I am by a couple of decently dressed young women handing over trophies and kisses at the Tour. And Bernard Hinault kisses the podium winners in the same way too for what it’s worth.

I am offended that we claim to live in a so-called “free country” and some people want to take the freedoms away from those girls making good money at a place like Hooters or whatever and having fun. Who are you are anyone else to say someone can’t do that? I prefer freedoms. I never liked cheerleaders stuff and think it is tacky as all get out, but I certainly wouldn’t want to prevent a team or anyone from doing that. The girls that sign up know what it is about. Who cares?


gg

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 11:20am #

mr marvelous wrote:Youthful stupidity excuse has been used far to much to excuse sexual assault. Sexual harassment/ assault is a criminal offense. If an employer chooses not to act properly they are also liable for charges and/ or lawsuit.

A lawsuit? Really? Goodness this was in France, not the US. Here is a thought. The young man made a mistake and apologized for it. The women excepted it. Good for them! It doesn’t mean the woman is stupid, it just means she, who was there and was the one involved was okay with an apology before we start running to attorneys and making a huge deal over something that most Europeans would be maybe no happy about, but they certainly wouldn’t elevated it to stupidity. I mean goodness!

I also agree with Steveo. That thing has been beaten to death. Get over yourselves. It isn’t the Tour de America, it is the Tour de France. If France wants podium girls and are more laid back about women’s bodies and don’t look at it sexually like we do, then that is their right. Maybe they just like the fashion of it and think it is fun. Wow.


jonawebb

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 12:04pm #

@gg more convincing if you weren’t referring to women as girls…


stefb

Private Message

Jul 13 2013 at 1:09pm #

I work in medicine.. I could care less about nudity, skimpy clothes, etc. people can work as whatever they want, but if the only role of a woman in the biggest bike race in the world is to stand next to a guy and smile, that is lame. Besides that, it is totally unnecessary. Same with interbike. Market the product for what it is.

Ps I think mostly every topic on every message board has been beaten to death on the Internet.

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 108 total)
 

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.