BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

damn. sorry to hear that. glad you're ok

damn that sounds so scary. hope you're doing ok today. what a terrible way to end a fun night. i hope you do end up making that report.

Mac and I had a similar but more violent incident - just moments later. Three young men attacked us while we were riding in the bike lanes on East Liberty Blvd just before Highland. The first guy ran in front of me and jumped at Mac punching him in the face. Dizzy and disoriented Mac stopped and was asked to empty his pockets. Mac refused and then the second guy came from behind and delivered a blow to the back of Mac's head. At this point I let out a hell of a battle cry ready to throw my bike at these A-holes . . . But ended up just distracting them enough to let Mac get free and get back on his bike. The two then came after "his lady" and grabbed my bag preventing me from getting back on my bike. The first guy was chasing Mac as he tried to ride away grabbing and getting a hold of the baskets but finally tripping and falling and rolling around on the ground. I think the two friends must have been distracted [either by my constant yelling NO NO NO NO or their friend falling] - I was able to break free and catch up with Mac. Very Scary! And so wrong.

Holy! I'm bummed that these two incident happened last night, or any night for that matter.

Things of this nature really piss me off. I'm glad to hear that you all came out mostly ok. Please if you are riding at night, protect yourself. Take pepper spray or some other protective implement (u-lock that is easily accessible).

Definitely file police reports. I hope you all heal up quickly.

It is a real pisser that ANYONE in their right mind would attack a biker. Really, I feel like saying, "Yes, I know rage too, I have felt it and I am pissed off at the mtf'n system!" But taking it out on a bike rider is messed up and really displaced. It's kind of cowardly...I mean we are such EASY targets.

Was this right by Peabody? Or on the other side by the Seminary?

Glad to hear everyone made it through OK.

I the future call 911 ASAP, don't wait to file a report. I got a rock thrown at my head and a knife pulled on me y a group of teens a few years ago. Called 911, 4 police officers responded, teens were apprehended.

Sucks to hear that this shit happens so frequently.

Yes, right in front of peabody.

And YES you are right. If I had not been in my own little world and called 911, the second incident would not have happened. Unfortunately did not have that peace of mind at that point.

i'm speechless, this is really freaking scary

Glad everyone is ok after such terrifying incidents. I can't even imagine what I would have done in that situation. I suppose if there's a lesson to be learned it is you always ought to call 911 as soon as you're safe enough to do so.

I don't know if it makes anyone feel better or worse, but this sort of thing has been going on in East Liberty "forever".

I'm pretty sure a guy I know reported having trouble on Penn in the Trader Joe's region one late night. Be careful out there indeed.

Sounds awful, glad everyone came out OK. Please file police reports.

Whoah, Mac and Jen, glad you are OK! How scary!

I've had bored teens yelling at me during the day/evening, but nothing more than that... yeah, calling the cops when you can is the best move. Obviously if the bored teens do it once they'll do it again, and probably right away.

perhaps you can have me take care of them next time.

you should definitely call 911 in these situations. i read a story on another pgh message board about someone who was grabbed by some high school students and knocked down during a morning commute (near negley and stanton) with the kids yelling some crap about "give me your bike b*tch". this person managed to get away from her assailants, later called the school, identified the child (by the unique shoes and hoodie he was wearing) and charges were filed (he apparently knocked someone else down minutes later and injured the person). moral: calling the cops (occasionally) works.

also with respect to dealing with cars that attack you: i once got rammed by an SUV (while I was waiting at a red light) by a bunch of drunks at penn and negley. i was obeying the traffic laws had front/rear blinkies (really bright/expensive cat eye brand ones) so theres no way they didn't see me. they pulled up behind me (at ~ 1 am), honked their horn (it was a red light), screamed at me & made fun of my bike/blinkies/helmet (I ignored them), then rammed me with their SUV bending my back rim (the light was still red). i was so stunned and scared by the incident all i did was get the hell out of their way and by the time i caught my snap they had already run the red light and were halfway to highland park cheering and screaming all the way like they had just won a championship football game. there were about 3 of the a-holes in the car so i refrained from screaming or throwing my u lock at them for fear of getting beat badly. i decided after that incident, that I would always call 911 and report it if anyone in a car/on foot f'ed with me in any way shape or form (be it passing intentionally too close, boxing me in, chasing me on foot, or just plain being aggressive). if they're in a car, all you have to do is tell the 911 operator "some drunk just hit me on my bike". you won't be stretching the truth because "only a drunk would do such a thing" and certainly (certainly !), you noticed a slight weaving motion as they pulled off from teh crime scene. because of the drunk driving aspect the cops will show up pronto and even if all you give them is a vague description of the vehicle/color/make they'll pull over anything in the area matching that description. chances are anyone hitting you or doing such BS with their car is i)drunk, ii) has warrants, or iii) is holding drugs/alcohol/weapons and will likely be going straight to jail in addition to any charges that may be filed from hitting you or being aggressive with their vehicle.

to this day, i don't know why i was waiting at a red light at 1 am on my bike at an intersection with no traffic (why didn't i just role thru it like normal? ... maybe the beers in me convinced me to follow the letter of the law). i was so spooked by the incident i rode on the sidewalk all the way home for fear they might circle back around and beat my ass or run me over again.

another fun incident: a fedex truck intentionally tried to box me into parked cars on butler at about 7pm one evening (no traffic, he had plenty of room to pass). he inevitably got hung up at the next red light, so i peddled up next to him, snapped his picture with my cell phone, told him i had his license plates and picture and that i was going to call his boss at Fedex and get him fired as well as press charges with the police. he turned white as a sheet, apologized, and limped off (slowly) when the light turned green.

hind sight is always 20/20, but hearing and reading about others "incidents" is informative and allows us to share "lessons learned" with respect to how to deal with these situations instead of our typical gut response of fight back with our u-locks (not always smart). thanks for sharing your story. i'll be on the look out for hooligans near the east lib bike lanes.

Rough stuff on ELB.

Here's something that sometimes works. But not always. Sometimes it would be foolish to try.

If someone is threatening you (moving, standing blocking, whatever) from in front or near your front, instead of trying to go around them, head directly towards them as though you are trying to hit them. They will get out of the way. With haste.

A person on a bike cuts a pretty big profile and to have that moving directly at you at 10 to 20 mph is a scary thing.

Not always possible or advisable. I'm not sure if it would be of help in these cases. But it's something to have in your bag of tricks.

Mick

thanks for that post. i never really thought of the "all you have to do is tell the 911 operator "some drunk just hit me on my bike"" part.

doing that shit as an employee in your work vehicle is possibly the stupidest thing you can do.

I don't believe that calling the driver a "drunk" is going to get any faster response. Saw a dude sideswipe a parking meter and nearly run over some peds on the sidewalk on Ellsworth a few weeks ago. Probably 100 witnesses, multiple people called the cops and it still took them an hour to show up (~10pm even).

found a bike mount for pepper spray.

holy crap..i suppose that's not difficult to make, but i guess glad it exists.

I don't believe that calling the driver a "drunk" is going to get any faster response.

Salty, I suspect you might be wrong.

One, labeling a problem driver "drunk" means that the police might have to answer the question "You had an earlier call about this guy, why didn't you respond?" (Long shot, of course, and they know it. )

Two, if the guy really is drunk, then your-word-versus-his just doesn't enter into it.

If there is some evidence of drunkenness, like weaving, report it.

The police might not respond depending on what else is on their plate (Murders, public nudity, donuts, whatever.)

Mick

Sure, calling a driver drunk probably won't *increase* response time - I'm just saying it doesn't mean they'll be there in 10 seconds flat either.

Anyways, back to the original topic, it definitely sucks that there are people out there doing that stuff. Maybe we should have a "self-defense for cyclists" class, honestly I'd have no idea what to do, is "turning the tables" like you suggested earlier a good idea (against a group of people - not against an SUV obviously

FWIW, I can tell you what *not* to do if a FedEx/UPS truck cuts you off. Don't pound on the side of the truck, because when the driver hears the loud noise and slams on his brakes, that big side mirror comes for your head in a big hurry...

I love the IDEA of a pepper spray bicycle mount, but would almost certainly forget to REMOVE the pepper spray after the ride. I don't think I want to provide other downtown commuters, or my neighborhood punks with easy access to MY pepper spray.

I would think you would want the pepper spray strapped to your arm, not hooked to your bike. It's your bike they're after, in addition to your wallet.

well, i'm sure if youre touring, having it on your top tube would be nice to thwart dogs

i'm still kinda waiting for the day i get to pull my front wheel up into some bike-grabbing loser's chest and roll right over them.

when i ride through there (i live on stanton) i make sure that these sorts of idiots can see the 3 foot section of chain wrapped around my waist. they don't typically bother me.

another tip: don't use your front light through that section of town. these nitwits are not so much different from moths. not using a rear light unless you can bike faster than the fastest 12-16 year old can run might be another good idea.

Does Stephan Patchen know about these incidents. if I recall, he frequently meets with Police.

I would kind of like to hear what the Police suggest.

the most i've ever gotten in this area (which i ride through most every day) is, "hey, you dropped something." i'm not sure what i look like on my bike, but no one is unfuckwith-able, so maybe i'm just lucky.

the traffic in the area, however, has been worse than any other part of the city i've come familiar with over the past few years.

sorry everyone's been having so much trouble with kids around here. i've heard stories about people in east liberty getting attacked by adolescents with swords, if you can believe it.

I'm very conflicted about the whole pepper spray thing... I would think a good shot of water in the face from a bottle would stun enough to give the time to get away as it does with dogs.

I think that may piss them off and still leaves you prone. Pepper spray at least immobilizes them for a few moments.

Well, pepper spray is like any weapon (gun, u-lock for that matter), it could just as easily be taken from you and used against you.

I would like to (respectfully) suggest that discussion about theoretical self-defense tactics is OT for this forum, and is better carried on with subject matter experts.

pocketa pocketa.

Saying "it could just as easily be taken from you and used against you" implies that there is a 50:50 chance. That's what "just as easily" means. But that is simply not true.

It is a very rare instance that when a victim produces a weapon to defend himself and the attacker persists in the attack and wrestles it away. The majority of the time, the attacker flees.

The best course of action is to resist, resist completely, and resist with whatever you can.

When I used to live in Wilkinsburg the only problems I would get would be people standing in the middle of the road, day and night. Usually I would just try to be nice and pass them saying hello but for the most part you would get yelled at or they would try to take a swing at you. Anytime I would ride through at night I would just turn my headlight off on these roads and no one would notice you until you were too far away. If you can spot someone before they see you this is the best way I can think of getting out of any trouble.

I couldn't imagine someone trying to tackle me off of my bike though, I would have no idea what to do in that situation. I'm glad to hear that everyone ok though!

I also just carry pepper spray around my key chain, people give you shit for having it but if anything happens to you its a hell of a lot better than having a knife and trying to stab/scare someone off. I know plenty of people who carry knives around, I don't know how great I would feel about having to use that on someone.

I don't get messed with by people very often but I am also 6'1", bearded, visibly carrying a knife and lock, and try to look extremely aggravated all the time when I ride. That being said, teenagers are the only people who scare me. I remember how much of a senseless hooligan I was and the shit we did without any thought of the consequences. Good luck everyone and sorry to hear that Jen

@spakbros- this is my tactic as well (though I'm an inch shorter than you.)

I also share your fear of teenage boys for much the same reason: I don't think the human brain's capacity for moral reasoning fully develops until around, say, age 25. In the meantime random acts of thoughtless stupidity and resulting horrifying consequences are a real possibility.

I've been doing more riding at night lately, and appreciate the cautions from so many folks. I had not heard of the attacks along E. Lib. Blvd. Perhaps the police in that area need to hear from us, to know that that area needs patrolled day and night to protect us.

Along these same lines, are there any plans to light the new bike path that parallels Penn Ave. through Mellon Park? I've ridden that a few times at night lately, and I noted that part of that trail is quite dark and hidden from street view.

Also, I'm wondering where one could buy pepper spray locally, if one were so inclined?

do you know any cops? the foaming law enforcement type is the only one that actually works well

That area is terrible after 9pm. It seems the ppl in that area thrive on hurting people. If at all possible everyone should avoid East Liberty after dark. It's not a good place to be whatsoever.

Joanna, I know you and your family have been and continue to go through a lot dealing with the horrific crime committed against your father, but the overwhelming majority of people who live in East Lib are good, law-abiding people who are just as disgusted by violence as everyone else. It's not a bad idea to avoid more crime-prone neighborhoods after dark, but I don't believe that the people who live their "thrive" on hurting people.

They have pepper spray at Ralphs Army Supply Surplus in Monroeville. Other than that I'm not sure were to get it, I think its around 10 dollars maybe. But I'm sure you could find somewhere closer to the city.

I've lived in that area for the past 3 - 4 years and have never had more than a verbal confrontation with anyone. I did have people taking their time crossing East Lib. Blvd. when they saw me coming down the lane but they moved at the last minute. Actually, most of my neighbors cheer me on when I climb my hill at the end of the day.

I also walk up my hill from the bus stop at night by myself...a lot of people would say I'm crazy for doing that, but I've never felt unsafe. I'm always on my guard of course, but I don't know...I hear stories like this and think, perhaps I should have a plan in case something could happen? This will not prevent me from living here, however, and traveling the streets by bike or on foot.

I think calling 9-1-1 is a given. Any time we see an altercation occur on our street, we call the cops and they have been pretty responsive to that...they show within minutes. I'm sure they'd do the same if you'd call in this sort of situation. If people know that cops are a constant presence in a certain area they are less likely to pull crap like that. It's sad kids would have nothing better to do with their time though...they should be building their own bikes at Free Ride and riding them instead.

~Tricia

Harmony and I were riding with Mac and Jennifer until Negley at ELB - a few blocks before the incident occurred. I just heard about this tonight and I'm really sorry to hear that this happened.

That whole area is much safer than it was 5 or 8 years ago, but there are still a lot of scum bags who are out to hurt people. For the most part, the freaks come out at night...especially around there.

I've have 3 incidents in that area in the past, which isn't too bad having lived 5 blocks from ELB for the past 3.5 years, working as a bike messenger 6 years ago while dating somebody who lived in the area at the time.

The first was 3 years ago on the 700 block of N. Euclid Ave. A group of about 10 kids, mostly 10-13 years old chased me yelling for me to give them my bike. Somehow I was able to escape. This was around 11 PM or midnight on a school night. I think this speaks for the parenting of a lot of the kids in this area.

The second incident was on Negley Run between ELB and Washington Blvd. Three kids, 10-14 years old, stood in the middle of the street and wouldn't get out of my way as I was flying down the hill. I just continued at them, mainly at the smallest kid on the left. He dove out of the way last second into the street. Probably a stupid move. I was on a fixed gear and probably would have been pretty hurt. The kids were being stupid, but not attacking people.

Third incident was on ELB on a Sunday morning, riding home from a yoga class. My wife and I were taking the right lane (pre-bike lane ELB) and were about to turn right onto either Euclid or St. Clair. A man in an SUV was behind me and kept gassing it at us and then slowing down. He was in a hurry, but not enough of a hurry to drive in the left lane. He pulled up to us and I gave him the finger. He pulled in front of us and got out of his car and ran at us. I stopped instead of turning off, knowing that there were a good number of witnesses (probably going to the church a block up), and I said, "Hit me....and I'll own your Honda Pilot and your house." He said something or another, called me a bitch, said I deserved to be run down or shot, and got in his car to drive away. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the father of one of the kids that were involved in the incidents mentioned above. Either way, he totally ruined my yoga buzz.

In addition, my neighbor recently started bike commuting and had an altercation with a man in an SUV on Negley between ELB and Penn. The man swerved into him three times after yelling for him to get off of the road. On the third swerve, my neighbor kicked the side of the car with his bike cleat, scratching the side of the car.

The first was 3 years ago on the 700 block of N. Euclid Ave. A group of about 10 kids, mostly 10-13 years old chased me yelling for me to give them my bike.

Reminds me of the not-so-threatening-but-creepy experience I had at the beginning of this summer. Was on my way to Whole Foods around 730p and was in the turn lane on ELB to get on Euclid. I figured I'd be nice and let this kid (maybe 8?) go in front of me as he was crossing the street. The boy suddenly stops and goes, "Can I ride that?"

Me: "No, sorry."

Kid: "Where do you live?"

Me, somewhat taken aback, manages to get out ".....not around here," and just then, the light changed. Thankfully.

I swear the kids just think that they can't find anything better to do with their time, and I think there's just a cluster of them right around that area.

there's only one solution. nuke EL

greenbike, I get that from kids all the time on my regular commute route, as I'm grinding up Hazelwood Ave. They're just trying to connect. I think it's actually positive.

"there's only one solution. nuke EL"

not clever or appropriate.

"there's only one solution. nuke EL"

Yeah, let's be constructive please.

I now live in East Liberty and am really glad I do. As for the ELB part--it is the main way for me to get to a lot of places, but the intersection of ELB and Negley can be a little unnerving if it is night time... people are mostly just stoop sitting and hanging out, but there are also some people milling around that dont seem to be up to anything worthwhile as far as the community is concerned....

I never really thought anything of the occasional summer time throngs of kids on ELB before, but since this incident with mac and jenny freaked me out a little, if i am by myself i just go up to stanton instead of riding the last portion ELB and work on familiarizing myself with more of the people who are around the area most often.

also, i think that the suggestion of nixxing a front blinky is also ineffective. ELB is brightly lit and anyone can see you coming if they are walking and you are riding. For now I just pay attention to whether there are larger groups of kids ahead and alter my route if there seem to be. Sucks a little, but until I can think of something better..

I agree with Lyle, I live on Stanton ave and bike through EL often. I've been asked about my bike a few times by small groups of 8-12 year olds and I think it is a great opportunity to connect with the kids if you are quick witted enough to turn the questions towards them or about bike commuting/messengering/etc and off of the idea of taking it from you.

Yep.

I lived in Lincoln-Lemington for nearly 25 years, and my family, who were very active in the community, found that treating people as, well, people instead of potential criminals made a difference in the way those people acted. I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't be cautious (in fact, we should be cautious whereever we ride), but assuming that every 8-18 year old kid is going to jump you isn't helping things at all. I've had several positive experiences on my way home, too, by simply chatting.

Yeah, I guess had I had more wits about me I would have said something better....but given that it was dusk, I was alone, and I'm female, it doesn't matter who would stop me at that intersection....I would be a bit defensive.

Bjanaszek, I think that was my initial goal (just being friendly) b/c I could have just ignored the kid and let him go behind me, but I figured I'd be nice. Then it just kind of got a bit creepy for me!