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Cyclists Suck

I am 47 years old, and have been riding in Pittsburgh for over 30 years. While the influx of new cyclists over the last decade has made for a vibrant community, it is becoming a community that I do not want to be a part of.

My daily commute takes me from E.Liberty to Oakland, about a 30 minute ride. This week, I counted 14 cyclists running red lights, 5 cyclists riding the sidewalk in a business district, 6 riding on or crossing the yellow line, and the worst (to me) was an idiot who almost ran into me (both of us on bicycles) because he was crossing against the red in a crosswalk.

Some of them may enjoy being renegades, but I have to say "IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THE RULES, THEN GET OFF THE ROAD".

This kind of irresponsible behavior makes us more of a target to people in cars who do not ride bikes. I think I will just ride the bus, because I do not want to be labeled as another idiot on a bicycle.


ericf
2012-09-14 12:47:19

Wow, now it's drivers suck, pedestrians suck, and CYCLISTS suck...


This sucks, everything sucks.


benzo
2012-09-14 12:50:41

That's how I feel about driving sometimes.


Enjoy the bus while it's still an option!


jeg
2012-09-14 12:57:26

Rules seem to only apply to everyone else. That goes for cyclists, cars and whatever. I get a kick out of car drivers saying, stop at stop signs and clearly they just rolled through one themselves.


Best just to get there safe and not worry about everyone else. There are a ton of cyclists that don't pay attention to the law. They are showing how much they don't care and we all pay for it. Makes us targets, but you can't change the world my friend. Selfish people are the majority and it is best to have blinders on. Focus on your destination.


2012-09-14 13:09:00

There's a guy I see in Wilkinsburg sometimes running down Penn, sometimes on the yellow line like this morning, sometimes facing traffic and almost running into me as I labor up the hill, then proceeding the wrong way down Ross Street, without a helmet. I'm not so worried about the impact of his behavior on driver's view of me -- we could not be more different -- as hoping he wises up before he crashes and cracks his head open.


jonawebb
2012-09-14 13:10:44

I think Eric does have a point, albeit a tad overeagerly.


On a few occasions, I've been passed by a cyclist in Avalon onthe way in in the morning. He's a strong rider, but he drives me nuts. He runs every stop sign (and not an Idaho stop approach.) He does slow, but not stop for stoplights.


He comes up quietly behind me, then quickly passes me, so we've never chatted. But, I have been VERY tempted to print out a note asking him to ride a little more responsibly. Why do I care? Because he has potentially endangered ME by flaunting road rules, potentially pissing off motorists. These motorists will see me on that very road, just a minute or two later. I don't want them taking their anger out on me, or making I'll ride as irresponsibly as he.


For the record, I've not yet actually had this conversation with him. Maybe this post will reach him, or others like him.


swalfoort
2012-09-14 13:12:05

Pretty much everyone sucks if you try hard enough to seek them out.


rsprake
2012-09-14 13:33:30

everybody's a jerk sometimes, and lots of people are jerks without realizing it. we've got 2.3 million people in our metro area. I'm not sure of the exact statistical likelihood of a single person being an asshole at a given time, but in aggregate, that's a lot of opportunities to encounter even normally awesome people at their most thoughtless.


It will get better, just wait for the weather to turn at least. Then those thoughtless ninja salmoning cyclists will go back to driving.


ejwme
2012-09-14 13:41:17

@jeg buses suck, T also sucks! No more joy in life.


2012-09-14 13:51:09

I should probably mull this over a good long time before responding per my initial emotions, thusly I will try. It is a spectacularly beautiful morning at the end of a beautiful week, I had an amazing ride in this morning, got to town from Robinson in 45 min., flying. Stopped at all stop signs and lights. Hit 40 on the Steuby Pike downhill. Had an iffy moment looking at the front of a large truck that might have pulled out and didn't, I think my front blinky may have saved me. 0 negative interactions, close passes, with drivers. Just an awesome day so far. Only bummer, saw maybe only one other bike commuter :(

So if you're going to stop riding because of other peoples actions, and the way other people may "label" you, that's just sad. You're certainly probably safer than you have been in 30 years due to the sheer numbers of all the other riders. I'm going to concentrate on what is under my control, which is, my own actions. I actually couldn't give the slightest crap how others ride. Sooo, see ya, have a nice day!

Oh, also, traffic was light, so I took an entire lane inbound on W Carson from the WEC, cars moved over and NOBODY SAID A THING! During rush hour. UNHEARD OF!


edmonds59
2012-09-14 13:53:54

there's still puppies, kitties, ice-cream, and chocolate. the first two and the second two mix nicely, I wouldn't combine all four though.


yinz need naps.


ejwme
2012-09-14 13:54:36

On the Heritage trail yesterday and 2 younger riders (20s) came around a blind downhill curve, no helmets, no hands on bars on the wrong side of the trail - coming straight at me. I yelled and they sort of freaked and swerved and called ME an as%(^le!


2012-09-14 13:56:09

I am sorry if my post was over the top, but I find it very frustrating when we as a community are trying to gain respect and there are these idiots out there that are acting as beacons for every cager's anti-cycling arguments.

We are all quick to report bad drivers, but what about bad cyclists?

I am starting to agree with the licensing/enforcement/ticketing argument that most drivers make.


ericf
2012-09-14 13:57:27

On a more serious basis. Problem with law bending as I see it:


1. As soon as you start to bend it there is no limit wen to stop;

2. Personal interpretation of what is appropriate and what is not;

3. "Personal problem" "I can allow myself a little bit more" and according to my daughter (psychology major) this one is common among human beings without even recognizing by them.

4. "Separation" of riders/drivers in classes -- motorcycles are less protected and it's inconvenient to stop, drivers are less protected, bicyclists don't even have engine.


So I tend to agree with Eric -- follow the rules.


2012-09-14 14:00:34

The only two times I've hurt myself is when I wasn't following the rules. The only time I've been hurt by others is when they weren't following the rules.


I am not a slavish follower of rules. In fact I have a strong anarchist tendency, and make up my own rules for most everything. Funny thing, though, most of the time they're the same thing. They differ when my own personal safety is involved, or when someone else's definition of the rules makes more sense (e.g., invoking a Idaho red light at 4Av & Cherry Way).


And somewhere in all of this, I almost never manage to piss anyone off while on the bike.


stuinmccandless
2012-09-14 14:05:33

The other day I saw someone on a bike run into a car and kill the driver and then just take off. Oh no wait, that's backwards.


salty
2012-09-14 14:06:17

I'm not saying don't follow the rules. I'm not saying that ninja salmon scofflaws don't suck (they really do). I'm just saying that when they get you down, don't give up riding through fear of guilt by association. Sure take some time off to destress if it helps, but we need good riders out there to represent! Who else can help any teachable ones out there through leading by example?


ejwme
2012-09-14 14:10:54

Thursday I saw an unhelmeted college aged man salmoning up Fifth Ave right in front of St Paul Cathedral on a girls bike with an underinflated back tire and a seat way too low, he then hammered the bike into the curb and up onto the sidewalk and continued. There were no deaths.

Puppies can be kind of annoying, esp barky ones, I'm allergic to kittehs, and I think chocolate is waaay overrated.


edmonds59
2012-09-14 14:12:14

As the number of riders increase there will be a point where we all have to start following the same rules, and those rules will be enforced (and there will be lots more cycling infrastructure, reducing competition with motorists). New York City is already at that point, from what I understand. Cyclists are getting tickets for running red lights etc. Pittsburgh isn't yet.

Discussions like this are helpful in convincing cyclists to become more law-abiding in the absence of enforcement. As would modifying the laws so they make more sense, i.e., legalizing treating stop signs as yield signs for cyclists (Idaho), and even stop lights as stop signs (Paris).


jonawebb
2012-09-14 14:17:33

Stu the anarchist!


rice-rocket
2012-09-14 14:21:07

The riders running red lights and doing stupid crap are not reading this board.

If the police want to take on this task evenhandedly toward all road users, fine with me. I am an asshole, but I do follow the laws (My brain is heading off in another regarding "laws" versus "rules", but another time).


edmonds59
2012-09-14 14:28:07

@ericf We are all quick to report bad drivers


I beg to differ.


I've never once reported a driver for rolling through a stop sign, making a right on red without coming to a stop, or going over the speed limit - and I've seen those behaviors more than not, and I wish drivers would be punished for them often enough for breaking those laws to stop being the norm.


But I haven't reported them.


Also, I've been riding a bit longer than you and I can honestly say that the proportion of cyclists following the law has increased over the decades. There are more law breakers, for sure, but that's because there are many, many more cyclists.


mick
2012-09-14 14:29:35

@edmonds59 - actually, there appear to be a substantial number of members of this board who think running red lights is okay (along with some other rule bending/breaking). I don't particularly agree with them, but this seems like as good a place as any to discuss the pros and cons of following the rules of the road. As for the original post, I'm having trouble thinking of anything short of roving zombie hoards that would make me want to stop riding my bike. Actually, come to think of it, a bike would probably be a pretty good vehicle in the event of the zombie apocalypse.


willb
2012-09-14 14:38:45

I'm pretty sure zombies drive SUVs.


mick
2012-09-14 14:40:50

Fair enough. And I need to remind myself that there are people reading the board who don't necessarily post on the board. Taken.


edmonds59
2012-09-14 14:42:34

@Stu Why motorcyclists (and cars also) are not allowed Idaho Red Light?


@salty I saw car almost hit a poll trying to avoid stupid bicyclists running red. Bicyclist did not even look back. And saw motorcyclist swerving into oncoming traffic avoiding bicyclists on intersection crossing on ped x-ng on red for peds. Motorcyclist used a couple idiomatic phrases and cyclists looked offended (I think they did not recognize motorcycle the same way as car drivers don't see bicyclists and motorcyclists).


2012-09-14 14:48:51

The Zombie Survival Guide definitely recommends riding a bike during a zombie outbreak or apocalypse. Bikes are much more maneuverable than cars, allowing you to get around traffic jams, and much quieter than motorcycles, so that you don't attract zombie hoards.


jonawebb
2012-09-14 14:50:10

Who reports drivers for running stop signs? Until the infrastructure is at a point where bikes and cars are treated as equals there will always be a minority that treat the traffic laws as a suggestion.


rsprake
2012-09-14 14:52:00

80% of accidents happen at intersections. As cyclist we need to approach them with your head on a swivel. I agree with Stu and when it comes to your own personal safety do what makes sense. I’m not a fan of being a stationary object for someone on a cell phone not to notice me while riding home in rush hour traffic. But I’m not planning to become a hood ornament for a bus either…


greasefoot
2012-09-14 15:11:42

i care about shitty drivers because they can kill me.


why on earth should i care about shitty cyclists?


hiddenvariable
2012-09-14 15:13:56

It seems like you should care about shitty cyclists because they have a higher probability to piss off shitty drivers, who are less likely to be able to tell the difference between a shitty cyclist and a non-shitty cyclist.


Shitty cyclists endanger themselves, pedestrians, and you.


[Edit] Oh, and they endanger the driver (shitty or otherwise) who tries not to kill them when they're out being shitty.


You should care about shitty cyclists.


If you see a cyclist being shitty, let them know about it. We all need to work together.


alucas
2012-09-14 15:30:43

Funny thing back there where Stu said he has only been hurt when not following rules. I thought about it, and its true for myself as well. I went down once this year, and almost a second time a few days ago.


First crash this year was when I went through a stop sign very late at night and ended up sliding out on gravel in that intersection. Wouldn't have happened if I had had less speed from actually stopping. The second, the near crash, I was flying down Brereton in Polish Hill, and went wide across the yellow line to get a good angle on the turn at the bottom of the hill so I wouldn't have to lose much speed. Again, having too much speed plus a little bit of gravel in the street almost took me out.


Weird how these traffic devices and rules were put in place to regulate traffic, but they really to make things safer for everyone.


2012-09-14 15:43:18

I've been in two crashes involving cars, both times I was following the law. The rules only get you so far.


rsprake
2012-09-14 15:46:10

Bikes should be able to roll through stop signs, and perform the Idaho Red.


When it is safe to do so, of course!

Which means there is no possibility of a situation where a car/bike/pedestrian will attempt to occupy the same space (crash).


Why should bikes be permitted this behavior and not cars?


Ask a physicist about how mass and velocity affect momentum. They could show you quite concisely how cars and bicycles differ. With numbers n' shit no less.


Seriously though, think about what a wonderful country you live in when your biggest gripe is some ding dong disobeying a colored light.


roadkillen
2012-09-14 16:02:34

To respond in a more thoughtful and considered manner, and apologies to any snottiness I may have previously expressed, I have a rather loosely formed "theory" that I should probably work on more rigorously, as to why I could care less about crappy cyclists.

The entire environment we are discussing has been framed due to the inherent characteristics and dangers of one road user group over all others. Why should pedestrians have to speed up and jog across the street due to an approaching car? I see this downtown all the time. Why should pedestrians be required to cross only at marked crossings? There is no physical (as in, physics) reason for pedestrians to be limited in this way. I would argue the same to a lesser degree for cyclists. Motor vehicles must be limited to lanes and strict guidelines because they become dangerous and deadly weapons when they are not. Our entire environment has been structured to accommodate the hazards of this one road user group over all others.

In the bike-friendly countries of the Netherlands and Denmark, it took massive public protests to downgrade the dominance of motor vehicles. In lieu of such protests here (not gonna happen) I see each witting or unwitting disregard of the dominance of motor vehicles as a small erosion of acceptance of that dominance, a tiny bird pecking away at a mountain. Each time I hear a motorist bitch about arrogant and entitled cyclists, I hear a motorist that has SEEN a cyclist. Pedestrians and cyclists should be arrogant and entitled because they are indeed entitled to some part of the road. I see each shitty idiot cyclist as one more cyclist. The actual number of what we would call "idiot" cyclists killed and injured in this area is low. The number of experienced cyclists killed in western PA while riding properly and following all the rules of the road is about 5 in 2 years give or take, by my count. Every shittyidiot cyclist and every bitching motorist represents progress toward safer roads.


edmonds59
2012-09-14 16:20:45

am I the only person who sometimes looks forward to catching a red light because it gives me a slight chance to rest, but not look weak?


the-beast
2012-09-14 17:26:08

hmm... crosswalks allow drivers to better predict pedestrian behavior - assuming pedestrians actually use them. There's even no(t supposed to be) parking at intersections so pedestrians crossing (and cross traffic) are more visible than when they come from between parked cars.


Most traffic laws I can think of are about keeping people predictably avoidable by all other traffic. That's the only thing that I'm not so sure about rolling stops for bicycles - bikes might stop or not, depending on if they perceive cross traffic or not (potentially independent of the reality of cross traffic). If everybody has to stop at stop signs, independent of whether they see traffic or not, it's much more predictable. But right now, cyclists are less likely to stop, making them unpredictable anyway. I'm just not sure that Idaho stops will improve either public safety or perception. If they passed an Idaho stop law right now, I just don't think anything would change at all.


Other than that, what edmonds said, +1000. (and thebeast, I'm totally with you on the nice breather)


ejwme
2012-09-14 17:29:30

good luck guy, bus riders are people too, if you're pissed about bikes running stop signs the conversations you hear on the bus are going to really make your blood boil


imakwik1
2012-09-14 18:23:03

Another pro active thing to do would be to carry 2 or 3 of our Bike Commuting 101 guides and give them to the bicycle riders who are egregiously breaking the law


scott
2012-09-14 18:26:07

you might have to run a few stop signs to catch them, but it will be worth it!


imakwik1
2012-09-14 18:40:23

Helpless when parked at a red light and another cyclist rolls past and through the red light.


I know that feel, bro.


sloaps
2012-09-14 18:52:21

Thank you all for your considerate responses. I guess I will try and "let it go", I am not going to quit cycling, for any reason, let alone the jackwagons who think they are in a race or are otherwise oblivious to the rules of the road.

Alan, your comment pretty much sums it up for me, drivers can't tell a good cyclist from a bad one, but bad cyclists certainly piss drivers off at cyclists as a whole.

Edmonds, I hope what you are saying comes true, if that critical mass is reached then things will get better.


ericf
2012-09-14 19:10:28

(some) drivers are pissed off at cyclists because they're impatient and selfish. "cyclists break the law" is one way they rationalize this, but it's just as likely they're unhappy because cyclists are "in their way" or "don't pay for registration" or any number of other "reasons".


furthermore, recent events aside, i don't believe most bike/car crashes have much to do with how drivers feel about cyclists - it's because they're drunk, inattentive, incompetent, driving too aggressively, etc.


i don't like watching cyclists do dumb things, but it doesn't particularly bug me either since they're usually not endangering anyone else. cyclists do sometimes injure or kill pedestrians or other cyclists, and that's the only thing that makes me care at all.


salty
2012-09-14 19:47:00

@salty it's just as likely they're unhappy because cyclists are "in their way"


+1


A decrease in the number of bikers cruising red lights isn't gonna change driver's attitudes.


mick
2012-09-14 20:00:29

The discussion of cyclists antagonizing drivers by their bad behavior reminds me of the way an abused wife thinks -- that if only she followed the rules better she wouldn't get beat. And everyone else in the house better keep their voices down while Dad is sleeping because you know that makes him angry. And make sure you buy him the kind of beer he likes because you know how he gets when he doesn't have that. Etc., etc.

Let's just stop worrying about how other cyclists are antagonizing motorists and making them run us down and kill us. It's not the fault of any cyclist, it's the fault of the motorists who can't control their cars and probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.


jonawebb
2012-09-14 20:13:31

If we want better infrastructure, that will require more tax dollars. There are way more drivers than cyclists. Politicians generally respond to their largest constituency. That is why I think we should be trying not to piss them off, not because we should be afraid of them running into us.


ericf
2012-09-14 20:42:10

you might have to run a few stop signs to catch them, but it will be worth it!


Actually, when I'm stopped at a red light and someone runs it, I usually end up in front of them later. The way I see it, if you don't really even save any time by running a red light, why do it?


rubberfactory
2012-09-14 21:04:01

The history of social change in this country doesn't support the idea that minority groups get benefits when they learn to behave themselves, actually. They get things when they learn to organize, work together, and create tension in the society that can only be resolved by giving them what they want. So I would disagree that getting cyclists to behave better is going to get us better bicycle infrastructure.


jonawebb
2012-09-14 21:11:27

They get things when they learn to organize, work together, and create tension in the society that can only be resolved by giving them what they want.


By creating tension, you mean paying lobbyists and campaign contributions, right?


rice-rocket
2012-09-14 21:14:00

It is all a hopeless cause. I just get where I am going. Best to be very selfish if you are a cyclist. No one else cares about you and ride like they are out to get you. It all doesn't matter. Hear the birds chirp and the wind in your ears. Cars are there as well as other idiots. Means nothing if you can stay clear of them and enjoy the amazing weather. Take up skiing if you want to really enjoy.


2012-09-14 21:30:05

Skiing brings its own set of annoyances. What about all of the newbs and the weavers. Those damn snowboarders...


rsprake
2012-09-14 21:42:34

Im so done with this thread. All those people posting and ruining everything


dbacklover
2012-09-14 21:48:24

I ski on weekdays and work on a loading dock on weekends, so to me, it is heaven. I am very fast on the slops, so skiboarders are fun for me to burst their bubble.


Anyway, I understand where Eric is coming from. He would like it to be more civil and for that to happen is all cyclists obey all traffic signs. Will that happen? No. Do I run a light to get myself to a safe place, for example by Peabody High School taking a left to get to that bike lane, will I run it to not deal with traffic on Highland? Yep. Will I run a stop sign to get into the clear on Highland while coming down from the Park? Yep. Will I do whatever it takes to get away from cars? Yep. Look out for yourself and F everyone else.


2012-09-14 21:53:57

Alan, your comment pretty much sums it up for me, drivers can't tell a good cyclist from a bad one, but bad cyclists certainly piss drivers off at cyclists as a whole.


OK, this is how I know I've lost a certain sense of geopolitical perspective.


I was listening to an NPR interview with mainstream/reasonable Libyans (in the aftermath of the four consulate deaths) who were talking about - those fools (meaning the attackers), they make us all look bad, people have some pre-conceived notions about us and those self-focused jerks are proving them right and confirming their worst beliefs, but what can we do?


and I thought, Yeah. Same thing with idiot bicyclists making us all look bad.


Now I see the Middle East as a metaphor for intractable bicycle issues.


vannever
2012-09-14 22:02:14

Ha, ha!

But seriously, aside from the issue at hand, I am happy that people get on here and just say what they think, or even just vent. The original post poked me to analyze more deeply why I think what I think. Things would be boring as hell if people said things and people just agreed like a bunch of seagulls. That would suck. All working together does not mean all thinking alike. So thanks ericf.


edmonds59
2012-09-14 22:02:38

African-Americans didn't get the right to vote by paying people, I can assure you.

I've been thinking about it and have come to a completely opposite conclusion to where I started. Now I think that by violating unjust traffic rules (all the rules that are designed for cars and make no sense for bikes, like coming to a complete stop at stop signs) we are engaging in civil disobedience. It is not wrong to do as long a we do it responsibly.


jonawebb
2012-09-14 23:35:37

http://fabb-bikes.blogspot.com/2012/09/thewashcycle-on-milloys-column-on-dc.html


I enjoy driving fast. Not reckless driving, just cruising at speeds more appropriate for road conditions than the posted speed limit sometimes permits.


[...]


Lately, though, some jurisdictions have ramped up efforts to kill that feeling — to actually steal the joy of driving altogether — by “getting people out of their cars,” as D.C. Mayor Vincent Gray (D) likes to say.


salty
2012-09-15 13:49:44

What do you think the chances are the paper would publish an "I enjoy running red lights" article penned by a cyclist?


salty
2012-09-15 13:57:49

It seems like you should care about shitty cyclists because they have a higher probability to piss off shitty drivers, who are less likely to be able to tell the difference between a shitty cyclist and a non-shitty cyclist.


but this is not true, or at least i have not seen it actually demonstrated. the real enemy, the assholes who use bitching about cyclists poor behavior as an excuse to "never respect" cyclists, will be the enemy no matter how well-behaved you are. normal, reasonable people just shrug and say "oh look, another jagoff." there is nothing we can do to improve cyclists' image as a whole, other than by getting more people on bikes.


also, on a different note, namely regarding the physics of bikes running stop signs: there's a really good reason why bikes should be treated differently than cars that has nothing to do with potential impact energy. people on bikes, on the whole, travel considerably slower than cars, and as a result, have way more time near the intersection to survey cross or oncoming or pedestrian traffic than people driving cars do. so when a car comes to a complete stop and takes time to look, a biker has already looked for just as long as that, and perhaps more.


hiddenvariable
2012-09-15 14:39:00

@hv "egarding the physics of bikes running stop signs: there's a really good reason why bikes should be treated differently than cars that has nothing to do with potential impact energy. people on bikes, on the whole, travel considerably slower than cars, and as a result, have way more time near the intersection "


Exactly. As a result argument about momentum is bogus for Idaho Red.


But even for rolling stop signs and Idaho Red we cannot claim that a car rider spends less time observing.


2012-09-15 16:14:28

@HV and Mikhail -- Exactly!! A while back in some thread there was a discussion of this or some similar biker behavior in terms of risk/reward analysis. I don't remember what thread it was. I had never thought about analyzing it that way before. It made a lot of sense. In doing so I came to the exact same conclusion as both of you based on my own experience. We do the Idaho stops and reds because we are moving slowly enough to have the time to analyze the risk of going through the intersection while we are still in motion approaching it.


cdavey
2012-09-15 18:17:48

It is called a "Pittsburgh stop" and has been around for many decades. Idaho? I don't think so.


2012-09-15 22:17:07

gg: "Idaho stop" is in reference to the Idaho Stop Law.


In 1982, the Idaho legislature passed a law allowing bicyclists to treat stop signs as yield and not always come to a complete stop. In 1988 (I think) they added the red light provision.


TITLE 49

MOTOR VEHICLES

CHAPTER 7

PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES

49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and, if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection. After slowing to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the intersection without stopping.

(2) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a steady red traffic control light shall stop before entering the intersection and shall yield to all other traffic. Once the person has yielded, he may proceed through the steady red light with caution. Provided however, that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a right-hand turn. A left-hand turn onto a one-way highway may be made on a red light after stopping and yielding to other traffic.


quizbot
2012-09-17 20:09:47

how did they get that passed?


jonawebb
2012-09-17 20:40:46

It was the 80s. Nothing that happened then made any sense.


ejwme
2012-09-17 20:56:13

More than one state have rolling stop laws. I am not sure about Idaho Red.


2012-09-17 20:56:22

"It was the 80s. Nothing that happened then made any sense."


((Insert gratuitous Talking Heads reference here...))


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-09-17 21:10:56

I'm really curious about the Idaho stop now. That state has never been known for progressivism.


mick
2012-09-17 21:16:08

ALMKLM, I just saw This Must Be The Place (David Burn cameo, awesome sound track, Sean Penn stellar as usual). Talking Heads is Art. Was the 80's art too?


ejwme
2012-09-17 21:22:36

Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom!


Self-evidently, the 80s was art.


reddan
2012-09-17 21:24:43

Stop. Making. Sense.


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-09-17 21:46:59

@Edmonds59 Thanks!


@ALMKLM Stop. Making. Sense.


Easy enough for you to say.


;)


mick
2012-09-17 22:12:40

@Mick: We're being taken for a ride again...


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-09-17 22:19:18

Cool! I like rides!


mick
2012-09-17 22:41:21

...nothing is better than that...


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-09-18 00:06:35