BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

is this the same as the disappearing liberty ave (through bloomfield) sharrows?

in related news, parts of the (newly installed) bike lane on East Liberty Blvd took a beating this winter.

So, hypothetically speaking, would someone get arrested for touching-up sharrows and bike lane markings at, say, 3 AM on a Sunday? A little guerrilla Public Works action?

They are taking a beating for sure.

we were talking about this last night reddan....not a good idea. You could get into some legal trouble, especially if someone gets hurt in the area that is guerilla'd.

Yeah, you're probably right. Seems to me that touching up existing legal signage shouldn't lead to potential legal woes, but somebody could get their litigious panties in a bunch over it.

yeah, but the legal thing we were talking about was if you put in bike lanes, without an engineer's approval. these were all signed off by an engineer.

true...maybe we can hook up some sprayers to the trailers on the pedal pale ale ride next month.

They repainted the line on Greenfield Rd, and a couple of the other bike lanes in Sq. hill, but none of the sharrows or little bike symbols. The one on Greenfield looks like a normal shoulder now, since the little biker guy/gal symbols are all worn off.

in my opinion, this comes off as really embarrassing for the city. but, know that, for the sake of time and money, painting is what we're able to do to get anything on the road right now with the limited resources available. the eventual goal is that when they repave a road, they will use a more durable (and expensive) road marking.

this is frustrating as all get out to me, and working through the maze of the city is even more so. but, it's taught me (albeit a little) patience.

You go to DC and their bike infrastructure practically glows it's so nice.

yes. it must be nice to live in a city with money

One adage I've picked up along the line is, "The poor man can only afford the very best." Otherwise you buy it, and buy it again, and again...

What's the point of putting paint down if it isn't going to last even one year? My cynical side tells me that a back-room conversation before they sent out the paint crew went something like "OK, make the cyclists happy. Throw down some cheap paint and make them go away for a while."

If they're going to bother painting the streets at all, use the good stuff.

yeah. my cynical side says that too.

I would like to see pgh start to use the wet reflective paints and thermoplastics. Even when driving, as it rains a lot in the burgh, lines can often get muddled by glare, etc.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Traffic_Safety/TSS/Offerings/Products/3MLines/

I would like to see that or a similar product used, but again.. money.

What I'm saying is: Damn the cost. If you're going to spend money to do it at all, spend the money to do it right, or else pay *more* in re-doing it ad infinitum.

i agree, for the most part. if they are planning on repaving the street within 2 years, then no, don't spend the cost.

another problem is person power right now. the city can only do painting in-house. any other marking is subcontracted out.

Thermoplastics...aren't those like ice when it rains?

I agree with the notion of doing it right, but you have to start further down. at least a couple of feet deeper. Even the most durable markings will disappear when the asphalt erodes away. Question is, how do you convince the membership and foundations and politicians that cyclists need roads without potholes, when painting quick-and-dirty cheap markings gets them 90% of the political appeal for a fraction of the price?

Thermoplastic can be embedded with some type of gritty substance to that it is not slick when wet.

This from the Walkinginfo site:

http://www.walkinginfo.org/engineering/crossings-crosswalks.cfm

"Inlay tape is recommended for new and resurfaced pavement, while thermoplastic may be a better option on rougher pavement surfaces. Both inlay tape and thermoplastic are more visible and less slippery than paint when wet."

I would support this kind of guerrilla graffiti, unlike the regular kind. I doubt really that Public Works or something would seek legal action against something of that nature as long as no one is hurt or no other property damage.

Just have a big-ish vehicle with you while you're doing it behind you with the blinkers on. Who's gonna hit into that?

What about working *with* the city on this? I'm probably being naively optimistic, but I'd like to believe that the city would be open to sincere offers of help. My guess is that, like so many other public works projects, money and manpower are the primary gating issues. The fly in the ointment may be that this is union work, and having non-union volunteers doing it may violate some contract.

@JZ: My impression is basically what you just said. The city doesn't have the funds to maintain these markings effectively like we want to see, but at the same time some obligatory contract would prevent volunteers from doing the work.

I'm not a chest-pounding anti-gov't nut, but something seems wrong about that am I right?

Of course we don't know that there's a union fly in some government ointment, that's just a hunch. But assuming it is, we would have to be neither chest-pounding anti-gov't nuts nor chest-pounding anti-union nuts.

Just, somehow, please, can we get visible sharrows on our streets?

(Just checked, they went on around Aug 1 2009. Eight months.)

I think as they are repaving streets we will start to see longer term solutions. At least I hope. Perhaps I am naive.

i don't know, guys. in the newly paved streets which have highly reflective thermoplastic tape and other heat applied markings, even those are coming up from the snow removal of this past winter...

@sloaps very true. see east liberty blvd.

East Liberty's thermoplastic was an afterthought.

where it's coming up on ELB is due to a plow catching & getting under it... regardless, ELB is in much better shape than the Penn Ave sharrows or Liberty Ave, which are practically invisible. Going to call 311 about Liberty in Bloomfield.

Boulevard of the Allies from Bates Street to the Anderson Bridge was entirely resurfaced in September... RIGHT before the G20. Not a coincidence as the dignitaries' motorcades came to Phipps via the Boulevard.

The Boulevard pavement in that section is in great shape still, but almost half of the pavement markings were scraped off by the snow plows. I'd rather see pretty standard paint that takes as much time to wear off as the roadway itself than this super-reflective paint that's basically adhered with the same stuff as bumper stickers. LOL

Does it make sense or even help for us cyclists to call/email our council people about the fading bike lane issues? I really like seeing all the new bike lanes etc., but its annoying as a tax payer to see the city using crappy paint etc.

I guess this is an issue of is it better to get 70 bike lanes done, and on the books, hoping the city improves them later or should we be bugging the city to do it right the first time. I can see pros and cons to both approaches.

"bugging the city to do it right the first time at the potential expense of not getting extra lanes due to the cost."

i think it helps a lot to contact your council members and 311. it lets them know that there are people paying attention and that think this is important. it's such a small thing that could have a big impact.

While we are spending money to make things more visible…

http://www.newspress.co.uk/public/ViewPressRelease.aspx?pr=20944&pr_ref=283

My biggest fear on the roads this spring is being knocked down in traffic by a pothole, or taking a corner in traffic and wiping out on the gravel and either being hit by a car, or not. You can get killed pretty thoroughly just by hitting your head on the ground. And the layers of patches on top of washboard pavement are making it hard to keep rubber on the road and maintain control while stopping or cornering.

Lyle is right. And when those patches start to go? It might get ugly.

Mick

Issue I'm debating: Is it worth it to guerrilla paint already existing street markings near my place like crosswalks/stoplines/etc.? I ask this because I wonder if this should be done too with many of the fading bike lane/sharrow markings along Liberty and Penn.

If some think it's more virtuous than vandalism, would anyone be able to recommend and quick-drying paint?

Just heard back from the City of Pittsburgh: sharrows will be going in Tues and Wed of next week on Liberty & Penn weather depending.

doing a no-rain dance right now

Wonder if this means that the mine field otherwise known as Liberty Ave won't be getting paved this year.

don't forget your patch kits

Anything to the rumors re: a bike/bus box at Liberty & Bloomfield Bridge outbound?

fresh sharrows going down on Liberty in Bloomfield this morning

Thanks for ruining our announcement.

There's not going to be a bus/bike box, just signs overhead that say buses and bikes only. Right after the bridge they will say "right turn only except buses and bikes." These aren't going in with this weekend's refreshing. Only the existing sharrows are getting refreshed. New work orders will be starting soon though.

Shweeeet! This calls for a 311 thank you.

Any chance those bus/bike only signs will make their way over to the contraflow lane on Fifth Avenue?

not anytime soon. PAT is really protective of those

I hope this doesn't mean that they're not planning on repaving this area soon.

I ride this twice daily and my bike really gets a rattling. I do enjoy navigating around the countless holes.

pb2q. Our hearts dropped when we found out that Liberty wasn't on the paving schedule this year, but we're not done trying. It's in a state of absolutely dreadful disrepair.

I asked one of the workers if the paint will last, he replied "all we can use is latex". but... but I'll take the slow fade over no sharrows any day.

as luck would have it, this was the first image that showed up when i, for some reason, googled "slow fade." i thought i'd get an awesome picture of a 90s haircut, but this was better

@Erok & Scott: Any chance of Bike Pgh coordinating with the city to prioritize surfacing of streets that serve as major bike routes (marked on the bike map) over others?

Frankly, I'm all for something like this. Main artery roads should have the priority to be resurfaced. Conditions on Negley and Centre are inexcusable, yet I clearly saw a small low-traffic local road in Shadyside at least partially being resurfaced, and the road in general looked to be in better shape than most already. I can deal with potholes going 10 mph, but it's much more difficult on higher-speed roads. Case in point: today when I was turning right coming down Bigelow Blvd. where it bleeds into Bayard St. and continues as Bigelow.

Otherwise, I love the Liberty Ave. sharrows, but it just sucks that their path lies basically in the worst potholes and ruts of the roadway.

Its a shame the city can't coordinate with a NP like bike-pgh for putting down sharrows. Basically train a few members in the laws and handling of materials, city provides paint, stencils, a couple cones and while the city would be in charge of laying down the initial print, bikepgh volunteers could help keep them around when they fade.

It'll never happen, but hey.

Yeha.. unions wouldnt be happy with that.. non union peeps doing jobs that "should" go to union workers. Mini rant: the unions had their place in improving working conditions/pay during the industrialization of the us, but seems that in the current economic climate, they are responsible for as much plight as they are helpful protection and growth (see the big 3 automakers for a good example).

Well, It does look like the city laid down some fresh new sharrow markings on liberty today. Looking a little better now.

just rode these tonight and noticed fresh sharrows. i felt really confident planting my front wheel right in the middle of the sharrow and owning that road! its so much safer now! many thanks to all involoved with getting this done. i'll make it a point to send a message to my council person about this.

Liberty Ave sharrows being repainted on Friday afternoon.

I dig that photo. It looks like sharrows from 1952.