BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Even though the bicycle icon is most recognizable in profile, I kind of want to see the 2 vehicles adjacent, going the same direction, with the 4 ft between them. Maybe this could be made clear if there is a rider on the bike?

I was thinking that, too.

I think it can be achieved by making the car sideways, and show it passing the cyclist.

4 feet not 4 inches

RubberFac: Do you mean like... Bike on bottom, sideways car (moving to the right) on top, 4 feet in between? I like it.

Would it still be good to show a curved "trail" behind the car, indicating that it moved to pass the cyclist safely?

Hey, someone made one on the Pro Bikes web site (scroll down & look on the right here: http://www.probikesllc.com/ ) with a link to the message board! I think it could stand some improvements, such as correct proportions.

In my opinion showing the curved trail is not so important as helping people get a sense of how to gage 4 ft (half a car width?).

In any case, I applaud your efforts at driver education through visuals!

Automobile drivers may interpret the graphic as "drive a 4 ft steel beam into the back of a bicycle".

But, really, I like it. I like the swerve arrow, I think it helps make clear that the intent is not that the bike is to maintain 4'-0" from the car, as simpler versions can be interpreted.

alnilam - yes, that's exactly what I was thinking!

I'll work on that new version. Thanks for the positive feedback!

Cool that Pro Bikes already made one. I like mine a bit better though

While I'm working on it, I just realised a slightly off-topic question I have about HB 170:

You always had to ride right-most. You used to be able to ride left-most instead if it was a one-way street. Is that no longer true?

When creating signage of this type less is more. Right now it's got a lot going on and if you don't already know what you are looking at it can be confusing. Figure that the average person needs to be able to get the message in about 2-3 seconds tops.

Will cause the same level of misunderstanding as "Share the Road". Nope.

@alnilam riding to the left in that situation is permitted by 3505 (d) which was not altered by HB170 (although IMO they screwed up some related language that no one else seems to care about).

New sideways version

Same, with double yellow line to show that safely crossing the double yellow can be a good thing

Double yellow inclusion - good or bad?

Is this side-view version better than the weird top-down one? I like it better.

edit: and is it clear what the "4 ft" means? I was afraid that including a little measurement bar (between the bike and the car's path) might make it too busy.

Any tips, be they big makeovers or little touch ups?

Edmonds: I think/hope the swerve arrow makes this harder to misinterpret. Thoughts?

Salty: Yeah I'm a bit upset about that language change. Also, is taking the lane and riding 2 abreast still okay, or is that potentially being worded out too?

alnilam, I think the best you could hope for with those is someone thinking that a 4 foot following distance is required. With both vehicles being shown in profile, that arrow looks like it goes up & over the biker. Anyone in a black '80s TransAm will be looking for their "Turbo Boost" button.

I think your first effort is better, but you'd have to find a better representation of a bike from the same perspective as the car.

This is not a serious attempt -- I just wanted to experiment with a different perspective. What do you think?

That's actually a good basic design for a print-medium advertisement, like a poster or what you might find on the back of a bus.

alnilam, I like including the double yellow, but I'm not sure that drivers will interpret it as such. I think your first attempt is good only the bike needs re-oriented. I don't think this attempt is much better, but I would want the bike something like this

I agree with cburch's comment. He's looking at this with a graphic designer's eye. What he says makes sense to me.

I'd suggest trying something using the sign design kordite posted, for the reason edmonds59 suggested -- its hard to misinterpret it.

Maybe use the three elements placed as shown -- car, arrow, bike. Set "4 FEET" on top of the arrow, and place "TO PASS" below the arrow. I'd omit the part about "Its the law" as clutter, and also becuase the time it takes to educate people about the change will be less the life time of the sign, so at some point the reminder becomes superfluous.

That would seem to come closer to cburch's criteria of simple design that can be comprehended in just a couple of seconds.

Here's some good driver education:

I like the new sideways version, no double yellow. But perhaps "4 feet" on top, where it is, then below "to pass", same size. Then smaller at the bottom, "PA state law". Then I think that's it.

I need an ASP baton, would make a great warning to those who get too close.

Haha plus one on that

i'm pretty sure those are a illegal to carry in the state of PA for anyone but law enforcement. not to mention utilizing one of those to solve a road side dispute with a motorist would almost certainly result in a charge of aggravated assault and or assault with a deadly weapon against the cyclist. unless the driver is also armed and in that case that's a confrontation that would be better handled through avoidance, you can almost always escape a motorist on your bike once they've exited their vehicle on foot.

PA is spotty as it does not explicitly ban carrying a collapsible baton but there is enough room to make a case against someone.

My pistol or short barreled rifle is perfectly acceptable carry though.

Because only outlaws have collapsible batons or something...

http://www.my-self-defense.com/pennsylvania-expandable-baton-laws.html

From Kordite's link

...any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor...

Sandbag????

Yahright. I keep a 22-pound bag of sand tied to my bike rack. In case someone tries to attack me I can just wing it at him while I'm scooting up the hill trying to get away. And you're going to tell me I can't?

Do I really need to close the tag?

As a bicycloist, you might want to carry a crescent wrench in handy pocket. Just saying.

The larger ones work best with pedals.

Sandbags leave almost no traces. It's almost like using Yellow Pages. Yo put it on someone head or right side (leaver) and punch it really hard. No damages to skin, no blacks, almost all energy got passed to the body causing internal damages.

And you use sandbag on a rope singing widely. Knock out cold.

driver education on 4' passing law? beat it into them!

Gah! how did this get so ot?!

Gah! how did this get so ot?!

Because education really doesn't make a difference. Those who are reckless enough to buzz cyclists already have a vendetta against us. Is a $50 fine really going to change anything?

http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/you-tell-me-if-im-wrong

yeah i said the same thing in this older post, but my opinion has evolved somewhat since then. (hope the above link works)

99% of the drivers on the road today already give 4 feet, if not more while passing. It's the 1%-ers that people are hoping to change with this law, and that's not going to happen with a slap on the wrist.

They need to up the ante to fines above $500 and/or points on their license if they really want any law to resonate, but we're too conservative of a state to do that. If you look at California, they have some pretty high fines for willful traffic violations, i.e. driving in the HOV lane when you only have one person in the vehicle is $500 MINIMUM. Entering a crosswalk while pedestrians are present is $250+.

I just measured my arm. From my shoulder to the tip of my fingers is 2'2". If I can smack a car on the side with my hand, and the driver has a problem with that, I have measurable evidence that they were operating illegally. I think that's my driver education program.

Well, it's not really 1%. It's more like 5-10%, more if the road is narrow and they need to squeeze by. I got passed this morning with a foot or two gap on Old William Penn, which is quite wide -- you don't even need to touch the yellow line to give 4 feet.

I had a lady in Culmersville ask me today as I was refilling my bottles at Popeye's if I was following the new law. I said, what law, the one where drivers give me 4-feet to pass. And she got uppity and said "And YOU have to ride to the RIGHT." So just like share the road signs, drivers now think this means I have to be way over in the berm. I tried to explain to her that I stay to the right when I can but sometimes there are obstructions, potholes, glass, sewer grates, etc. that make it impossible. But the whole interaction left me with a bad feeling about how this law is being perceived by motorists.....

Most drivers have no problems giving me four, six or eight feet. Unfortunately they often do so around a blind corner, or they pull directly into oncoming traffic. I could see a nasty head on crash resulting from this, and I doubt many involved would see fit to blame driver impatience.

I descended rt. 711 into Connellsville yesterday, was all smiles pedaling through town afterwards and a truck flew by me within 2 feet and said "GET OVER!". 2-3 miles later a car full of kids got close enough for me to touch the car and slowed down to my speed and said some stuff about Lance before turning left. Such a hostile place, that.

Given that there were two men in the truck, I really still wanted to say something about the 4 foot law but knew it wasn't going to work without me ending up getting beaten up (happened once to me in 2009 and it went to court).

I took a picture of the truck and plate at the stoplight. How should I go about reporting it without going down there? Does 'tattletaling' help at all? This was yesterday at about 3pm.

fly, that is horrible, glad you're ok. WTF is wrong with people?

One approach you might take, rather than calling the local cops, would be to call the local rail/trail council office (Yough RTC, http://www.regionaltrailcorp.com/yough_river_trail/ ), the GAP has been a notable economic boon down there, tell someone about the incident and your experiences, see if maybe they can identify the "friendlies" in the local law enforcement, and maybe they would even sit down with you at a face to face with the law, as a local advocate.

If you call the police station, chances are you'll get some marginal underpaid disinterested lackey who just wants to get you off the phone.

connellsville has a police force, but if you were on 711 descending into town before passing the high school chances are the state police would have jurisdiction.

+1 edmonds59 Connellsville has just invested in marking, signing, and advertising a new set of Bike Loops through town, because they hope to distribute the trail economy more broadly through the town.

They really don't want bad news stories about C-ville being bikeUnfriendly. If you can induce the YRT folks (who are locals) to work the back-channel, it'll probably get a lot more leverage.

And I suppose that's the "power of organizing". It's not just one voice in the wilderness, it's a BikePgh member who wants to spend their weekend money down there, but now has doubts... And there's a discussion on teh Intarweb... etc..

There's contact info here: http://www.regionaltrailcorp.com/yough_river_trail/

flyS564, sorry that happened. Sucks when it does. I was on fifth ave in the right lane and a truck full of kids passed me and yelled some shit at me, imagine their surprise when I was right next to them taking at them through their window. They ignored me and stared straight ahead.

Connellsville bike loop sounds awesome. Well done.

Hurrah for the new law! Here is a personal story of re-educating a(bus)driver: Waiting for the the 71d. Bus approaches, stopping 6-inches short of rear-ending a cyclist (going uphill on Washington blvd toward 5th)so I already know to watch the bus driver closely. I get on the bus, traffic starts to roll up the hill. The cyclist is completely within the law, even by the strictest definition possible of "riding to the right" but the bus passes her at about a foot. So I go up to the font, and remind the driver that 4 feet is the law, what she just did is illegal, I am also a cyclist and take this seriously. No more "that seems pretty unsafe, don't ya think...". Now we can tell them it is illegal, and report them. I did call PAT to report the incident, and also asked them to release something to the public about how they plan to re-educate bus operators on following laws to protect the safety of cyclists.

Nice job!

@gsinn, if you don't mind me asking what was the bus driver's response to your comments?

+1 for your efforts

She is generally very nice, and I would say a good bus driver overall. So it was not a tense interaction. Her response was just something like "I know, I understand..." And I was thinking "well if you know, why don't you act on it."

gsinn, that's awesome that you spoke up. drivers (in general) rarely get feedback on their performance, unless they get into a crash or get a ticket, so calling them out can make a difference

It sounds like it was a goood interaction. Hopefuly she remenbers it the next time she needs to pass a cyclist and moves over. Good for you to speak up.

I read a blog post today about the 4-foot rule by Lady Elaine (who I really enjoy), and it got me to thinking, and I ended up with this:

Cars Don't Pass Bikes, Drivers Pass Bicyclists

Teaser image:

Because I'm all about orange triangles.

Had a driver cut me off yesterday on the way to work on Penn Ave. near the Churchill/Wilkinsburg border. Easily able to chase him down and provide relatively calm feedback ("you cut me off, that was really unsafe"). He apologized and I think was a bit unnerved either that he could have hit me so easily, or that a cyclist could match his speed and then comment on his driving. Of course almost immediately after someone else pulled a very similar move...

@ mboyd I think part of why drivers are so surprised at calm feedback, is that drivers virtually never give eachother that. It is's ignore or "!@&% &*#, buddy"

I think it's really important because it p0-ersonalizes biker. Maybe even let's drivers know that, as Vannevar points out, it's a person they endanger, not a vehicle.

With all the fuss about the 4' rule, I've been thinking about the Disney driver-ed videos featuring Goofy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKBJCiJO5XU

I'm at work, and can't watch...but I'm hoping this is the one about how the normally sane and nice goofy turns into an aggressive beast behind the wheel of his car.

Some woman just tried to pass me on a small back road in lawrenceville with her suv just a few minutes ago. I had to take the lane and she still tried to get past me 15feet from a stop sign, I wouldn't let her so she started screaming at me like a maniac to get out of the road. I held up four fingers and told her she has to give me foot feet when passing and it dosent mean that she gets to push me into parked cars to do so. Some guy racking his yard heard it and was also yelling to her that she has to give four feet. She screamed at me to pick a lane and turned into the factory she apparently works at.

Willie, she sounds more like a school bus driver (wink). BTW, how did your last encounter with the bus company turn out?

That went pretty well, The safety team called me back and did tell me the buses are not allowed to go that way. I have not seen any buses go that way since also. Funny thing is the other day I was waiting to cross butler street and a bus with that same driver was at the light to my left. He spotted me and was leering at me for about 30 seconds in till I was able to ride off. Something tells me they got a talking to at the bus depot.

Great! Unfortunately it sounds like you are going to have to talk to every employer in L'ville until it's safe to ride the side streets - Butler will never be safe.

My latest blog post on the topic.

I gave this as a speech at Toastmasters this morning, and took questions. Those present were told to be hostile. Among the ones I got were:

a) Why four feet? Why not three? Or less?

b) What will happen to me if I pass too closely?

c) Do you really expect cars to slow down behind you?

"Why four feet?"

The average automobile is 6 feet in width. The typical non-interstate travel lane is 11 feet. That gives you 2.5 feet of clearance on either side of a car. A typical bike (to the end of the handlebars) is around 2 feet, so a bike riding all the way to the right and a car driving all the way to the left and yet not crossing the center line has about 4 feet of clearance.

Seems like the number may have been decided on with simple math.

"Why not three? Or less?"

When thinking about the widts of a vehicle, one seldome thinks about the rear view mirrors which, on trucks, can stick out a foot or more and, coincidentally, are often at a level which would strike a cyclist in the back of the skull. Car rear view mirrrs tend to be right at the elbow. Also, the perception of the cyclist as being the body and not accounting for the handle bars and elbows sticking out means that clearances, and perceived clearances, can decrease very quickly. Four foot is a reasonable number that means that even if you do not take into account rear view mirrors, elbows and arms sticking out to signal a turn, there is still enough clearance for the cyclist not to be struck.

Most states use 3 feet. Only PA and Oregon use 4 feet, I think. Personally, I don't care if it's 4 feet or 3 feet so long as it isn't 6 inches or 1 foot. But maybe choosing 4 feet is an attempt to put us at the same level as Oregon, famous for bike friendliness.

To me, the actual distance is unimportant.

It is improtant that the law be publicized (it seems to be) and enforced (hahahahaha).

I had a mediocre incident this morning commute. Was turning onto devonshire from center with a gentleman fairly close behind me. Having been shoved into the parked cars on either side of this street several times, I routinely take the lane for the first block which is always parked up, after which I quickly zip over.

Apparently I took too long to do that, so this guy honks and then quickly passes with definitely not 4 feet, because I thought I was doing a good job of not giving enough room on either side, but not good enough.

Of course, without excessive riding, I catch him at the light at ellsworth and more wood, politely asking him to wait until he can pass with 4', and that had he waited 10 seconds, I gladly would have gotten over.

He was perfectly civil, which I appreciated, but told me I needed to follow the rules of the road, he was just trying to get to work. (where was I going…?) I told him I too was getting to work, and wanted to do so safely, and that in fact he was the one breaking the rules by not giving four feet. Some debate over who was right ensued, but he was nice enough to keep the conversation going after the light turned green, and I thanked him for the civil discussion.

He had his port authority polo on, which I almost called him on, but decided I wanted to keep things as constructive as possible.

Anyone have a highly effective one (or two) liner that successfully comes across without being angry or arrogant?

@wojty, I have used this a few times

"You should ride on the sidewalk" (or something like that)

reply with: "You should ride a bus"

YOUR MOM SHOULD RIDE ON THE SIDEWALK

I really need to get faster so that I can consistently catch people who require face-to-face admonishment, and then I need to get braver so that I am willing to do more than just the hands-up WTF sign.

"YOUR MOM SHOULD RIDE ON THE SIDEWALK"

Coffee-snorting funny.

Nick's awesome letter in the Post-Gazette today.

And, the stupid comments have already commenced. Wonder if the guy who thinks we cyclists need to hold the "bad cyclists" accountable has the same standards for his community of drivers?

I'm not on facebook so I can't comment on the PG site, but

Hey Aaron, you sound like an intelligent person with impeccable logic. So when are you and all of the other automobile drivers going to start holding their fellow drivers responsible for running into all of the BUILDINGS lately? Now I know that some of these buildings were probably breaking the law and being dangerous since they were not using smoke detectors, etc., etc.

Excellent letter. I couldn't help but jump in.

Thanks, everyone! All of comments in defense of people in bikes give me a lot of hope for the city.

Also, it looks like Aaron Rever has stepped back and taken down his comments.

What!?! That's very disappointing. I only got off one round.

Aaron did delete his comments. I had to resist commenting this morning.

All in all, I think it was well received. I actually got two really nice messages from strangers about the letter.

If how people drive is any indication, the 4 foot passing law does not apply:

1. On a one-way street

2. Going uphill

3. When it is raining

4. When you're riding in a bike lane

5. On days ending in a 'y'.

One thing makes me skeptical of the four-ft law even as a theoretical entity.

When I'm taking the lane, cars going in the OTHER direction are slightly closer than 4 ft. Even when the street is fairly wide with a double yellow line.

I'm pretty happy when they are going within 10 mph of the speed limit and they give me over 30 inches.

OK so the retractable baton is illegal. But let's say I happen to be swinging a golf club to my left, in an arc under 4 feet total, and a car just happens to be passing me illegally closer than 4 feet. Who's responsible for the damage to the car?

The driver would pay the $25 fine, and you'd pay to repair the car. Even trade.

I just recently began commuting to work via bike a few times a week. I ride the Clairton Connector to the Steel Valley Trail from route 51 to The Waterfront. The Connector is a signed trail through the streets of Clairton, Glassport, and McKeesport, but I have been passed well within the 4 foot requirement. Specifically in the construction zone leading up to and away from the Mansfield Bridge.

I would love to have a sticker or sign on my bike that indicates the 4 foot law. Might be nice to double that fine in construction zones....all other fines are doubled....

You can wear a jersey but they only make them for the 3 foot rule, so far as I can tell.

In the mornings, I see a person up and around Forbes & S Dallas that has a stick tied to his bike that just so happens to stick out about 4' to the right. (Measured from the center of the bike out...)

I asked him if it was about the 4' foot rule, but sadly I couldn't hear his response.

Not something I would do, because all I could see is some adam's apple buzzing me and not seeing the stick in time....

As I recall, the through lanes in each direction by the Mansfield Bridge are really wide (or maybe there are two lanes each way, with the line between them worn away). So you could try riding a little farther to the left. Sometimes that helps drivers get the idea that they're supposed to switch into the adjacent lane. With two lanes, try staying a little left of the center of the right-hand lane.

Bike Pittsburgh sells stickers, and sometimes includes a few in their membership packets too. I'm guessing the next time they print stickers, there will be at least one about the new law.

Going back to the various news articles & letters where people were commenting with "run 'em down" and so forth, if those comments come from people using facebook profiles that list where they work, why not just screencap their comment and email it to their employer? It's become pretty common now for employers to punish or fire employees who give their company a bad name, even when it's just on facebook. Maybe if there were consequences for openly advocating and/or inciting violent behavior, people would think twice about doing it? Then again, maybe we should all just carry a sack of paintballs on our handlebars to mark the cars that violate the 4' law.

So, since commuting from Robinson to downtown 2 to 3 times a week since the beginning of March (except last week when I got crushed by sinusitis), I have to say I have had overall positive experiences.

I have had 0 verbal harassments, 0 honks.

Since the kick in of the 4' thing, I would estimate that about 30% pass right on the number, 40% overdo it, 29% go under but are still in the comfort zone.

Out of hundreds of passing cars, I can count on one hand the number of cars that have been uncomfortably close. A commonality between several is that they seemed to be youngish drivers in cheap econoboxes who just appeared clueless in general and probably give little thought to the process of driving, but I will be tracking that trend.

Also I have had a notable number of drivers hold up well behind me who were making right turns where I was going straight through intersections.

This morning when I got to town the bikers were out like bugs.

Feel free to email, tweet, Facebook, repost wherever, my blog post on the subject.

http://bus15237.blogspot.com/2012/04/on-new-4-foot-bicycle-passing-law.html

jonawebb - cool shirt link, might be an option as the weather gets warmer. Got to get some use out of my new REI jacket

Steven - you are remembering correctly, the Mansfiled Bridge bypass lanes are very wide, unfortunately, the construction has narrowed them to a single lane toward McKeesport. I must admit I need to get some courage to "take the lane". I often hop onto the sidewalk adjacent to the approach to let cars go by. I am a painfully slow rider on a very low geared mountain bike.

In the mornings, I see a person up and around Forbes & S Dallas that has a stick tied to his bike that just so happens to stick out about 4' to the right. (Measured from the center of the bike out...)

when it's safe for someone to pass me, I'll move over, and extend my arm out to its whole length, then wave them by (so that they have to at least go around my hand).

I'd say that more than 99/100 times it works. There was one time, though, where an access van's gigantic sideview mirror tapped my fingers (at a slow speed so that there was no injury... - side note: I was having a bad day, so I got the plate number and reported it, and the plates on the van were expired by about 2 years, according to the person I spoke with)

While we're on this subject of access vans, can someone who knows the law better address whether the act of being in a bike lane changes the math on the 4' passing requirement? Because it seems drivers figure 4' = a 6" strip of paint. I've had a couple of busses buzz me about a foot from my handlebars when I'm in a bike lane. It's not a big deal but if I go under the wheels I want to be correct about it.

Neville/Boundary St seems much more civil than I remember at this fine last year. Then again there also seems to be much more cycle traffic so maybe people are (gasp!) getting used to us using their precious roads.

The 4-foot law has some pretty general wording. I think it would have to apply to cars passing cyclists in a bike lane too. For that matter, if you're walking on the sidewalk and pushing your bike, it's possible drivers would still need to give you four feet, according to the law.

The driver of a motor vehicle overtaking a pedalcycle proceeding in the same direction shall pass to the left of the pedalcycle within not less than four feet at a careful and prudent reduced speed.

When I ordered my jersey for the 3-foot rule they sent me some bumper stickers. I still have them somewhere. If anyone wants them email me your address on GMail (same user name). I'll divide them up or not depending on how many requests I get.

BTW I've also noticed drivers waiting to pass, etc., as if they were respecting the 4-foot rule. Don't know if this is just my perception, though.

Tuesday, riding home on Ardmore, I rode to the right for the short stretch where there is no sidewalk. I've been doing this lately, after the 4-foot rule passed, giving things a try. And generally, people have been fine, getting in the middle lane to pass me. But one guy, seeing an "empty" lane and the opportunity to reach the Parkway that much quicker, squeezed past me at high speed. Geez. Well, that's the end of that, I'm back to taking the lane.

> I've had a couple of busses buzz me about a foot from my handlebars when I'm in a bike lane. It's not a big deal but if I go under the wheels I want to be correct about it.

Had an 86 do that to me tonight on Liberty. I gave him a look, so he rode my ass for about three blocks before finally passing me at the hospital....

Fortunately, he stopped by the sunoco, so I passed him, and didn't see him again till almost 40th...