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from oakland to edgewood town ctr?

Hi! I'd like to bike from Oakland (5th & Bouquet) to Edgewood town center (the medical offices not the grocery area). I want to avoid the 376 interchange at Braddock Ave if possible.


I know how to come down commercial and get to the Arby's on Braddock from Sq Hill but is there a more direct way from Oakland? Thanks in advance.


sarah_q
2010-08-26 11:54:36

You could try coming down forbes and travel parallel to Braddock through the back end of edgewood and Swissvale? Either through Frick Park to Commercial and out that way, or on the other side of Braddock, hopping on Pennwood, then cut to Swissvale/Edgewood ave via Race st (under a little stone railroad overpass arch thing, very pretty).


Time of day is key - I'd avoid Commercial late at night or during rush hours, crazies of all types don't realize it's banked the wrong way (or realize and think it's fun).


ejwme
2010-08-26 12:03:24

There isn't really a more direct way. Frick Park is a pretty big obstacle.


As an alternative, you could go past Braddock on Forbes. Take it all the way to Peebles and make a right. Peebles becomes Savannah. Make a left on Hutchinson, then a right on Pennwood. You want to get over to Swissvale Ave - I forget the exact connection here - I lived in the East End ~15 years ago :-S. Race Street, maybe? Anyway, Right on Swissvale, and then it will bring you to the funky intersection where the Arby's is. From there, you can make a right onto Braddock. Not direct by any stretch of the imagination, but maybe at least an interesting alternative.


jz
2010-08-26 12:19:07

I always choose Braddock Ave as the lesser of two evils over Commercial. Just my $0.02.


The best way to the Towne Center in my opinion is the gate behind the KMart accessed via Laurel ave (off of Swissvale ave just down from the edgewood library and country club). This avoids Braddock and climbing the hill altogether. However, the last time I was over there they put up a gate and locked it. Someone usually cuts the lock, but I'm not sure if it's open or closed at the moment. I know that's not real helpful to you today, but just a route to keep in mind. Also a side rant because I think it's a huge disservice to the residents of Wilkinsburg blocking their access to the shopping center. I hate when connectivity is reduced on purpose. Grrr.


tabby
2010-08-26 12:27:27

The one time I looked at that gate it was locked.


You can take Frick Park to Commercial St into Braddock Hills which has nice wide roads AND a 15 mph speed limit. Look on Google Maps from that point on to get you to the "Town" Center.


rsprake
2010-08-26 12:58:23

Commercial from the bottom has a nice clean sidewalk if you don't want to take the road as well.


rsprake
2010-08-26 12:59:19

Ok, I just went by the gate and it is still locked so that's out. I keep hoping that someone will sabatoge it. I've seen peds go through the bars and scale over it, but there's no way to get the bike through now. I'm bitter since this was my route to and from work.


@rsprake you lost me with commercial st to Braddock Hills.


tabby
2010-08-26 13:31:19

What JZ said. Forbes, braddock, hutchinson, race, under the busway, right on swissvale, BEHIND the mall, then right onto braddock.


Though personally I'm with tabby.


lyle
2010-08-26 14:04:46

I meant Swissvale. That area has a 15mph speed limit like Braddock Hills does and I think I got them confused.


rsprake
2010-08-26 14:07:48

I would never ever want to come back west along that stretch of Forward Avenue. The road is simply too narrow and winding and cars travel too fast.


Going down it however is fun as hell.


impala26
2010-08-26 15:11:17

I've done this route a lot. I'm with Tabby - the hassle of the Braddock-376 interchange is better than either commerical or trying to go through the park.


It's is somewhat directional though - Forwrd/Commerical from Sq H to Swissvale is much better than the reverse, in terms of effort and safety.


I'm somewhat bitter that the "Edgewood Town Center" is inaccessible from the Edgewood side. Bicycle Joe told me that it is still illegal (in the practical sense) to pass through Edgewood if you are black. I don't think these facts are unrelated.


Edgewood is one nasty place, although it certainly LOOKS nice.


mick
2010-08-26 15:50:44

+1 Mick. There's also a nice little parklet playground area just on the other side of the impenetrable gate. There is a sign there that the parking is permit parking only. Wouldn't want any of those Swissvale or Wilkinsburg neighbors to benefit from a nice place to play. I'm just waiting for them to errect walls and turn away buses and through traffic from the borough altogether.


tabby
2010-08-26 16:14:35

I live in Edgewood.


Edgewood Town Center has the unfortunate position of being framed in by the busway and train tracks. That fenced off entrance is probably closed off because the residents don't want all the car traffic passing through their quiet street. I can't say I blame them, I wouldn't want anything to do with a hideous shopping plaza near my house.


rsprake
2010-08-26 16:15:24

Hey no offense rsprake. I can understand wanting to limit car traffic cutting through there as well. However, given that people repeatedly cut the fence to be able to walk through there, it's known that there is a high pedestrian demand to connect to the Towne center from that side of Edgewood and Wilkinsburg. I wish they would have fenced it off to vehicles and kept a pedestrian gate open. Most people are just trying to get their groceries and go home, you know, not causing mischieve in the neighborhood.


tabby
2010-08-26 16:23:11

I don't disagree with that. I have been thinking about Bike PGH Lou's suggestion of a bike / pedestrian committee starting up in Regent Square. This is yet another thing that such a committee could tackle.


rsprake
2010-08-26 16:27:10

The residents on the other side of the gate do not want people going through their neighborhood; that's why it's that way and will remain so. (I lived in Regent Square at about the time they put in the mall and this was an issue.)


It sort of reminds me of when I worked in Austin (out by the Arboretum) and the locals were opposing a bike trail up from the city because this would allow thieves to come up and steal stuff (I'm not making this up). I still have this image in my head of some guy (no doubt a Mexican) rolling down the trail with a TV strapped to his bike rack...


ahlir
2010-08-26 16:33:30

that would be ideal for such a committee, rsprake. if there is resident support for allowing ped access it could be done. unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of the fence so I can't really lobby for access except to say I just want to get to work and promise I won't steal a TV and strap it to my rear rack. :)


tabby
2010-08-26 16:41:03

deleting rear rack commentary


88ms88
2010-08-26 16:47:00

@tabby I'm just waiting for them to errect walls and turn away buses and through traffic from the borough altogether.


IIRC, the busway was delayed through there because Edgewood objected to buses passing through their neighborhood. There is no Edgewood busway stop, because they do not want one.


mick
2010-08-26 17:13:33

Geez, these people of Edgewood sound more pretentious than those in Shadyside or Squirrel Hill...


impala26
2010-08-26 17:56:02

there was an opportunity to connect most of Penn Hills and Plum via a greenway that was killed by a few elderly residents that openly and on the record insisted that any bike/ped path would "allow the wrong kind of people access to our neighborhood" (which was NOT a gated community but regular old suburban plans). As though those "wrong" people didn't have access to it through cars via public roads, or even wanted to steal their stupid B&W rabbit eared tvs.


fear of "Not Us" sucks as public policy.


ejwme
2010-08-26 17:57:54

@Mick: Twice. First, in 1980, causing the original busway to terminate at Wilkinsburg. Then they delayed the extension project for years. The original projected opening date for the extension to Swissvale was 1998. It finally opened in 2003.


The linear park along the EBwy is missing through Edgewood, for the same reason.


In both cases, if it had to be boiled down to a single word, the objection was this: racism.


btw, who owns the fence?


stuinmccandless
2010-08-26 17:59:17

Here http://tinyurl.com/32sp9v4 is the Race Street underpass (with bonus Reynolds alternative). The silly squiggle at the end is unnecessary on a bicycle.


nfranzen
2010-08-26 18:04:30

good question stu. ownership is not clear as nothing is posted on the fence.


tabby
2010-08-26 18:20:38

I would bet it is a Town Center Fence. What was there before the plaza was built?


rsprake
2010-08-26 19:01:28

A more pointed question: Who owns (and keeps replacing) the lock?


stuinmccandless
2010-08-26 19:51:45

Bet it's a neighbor who then unlocks the fence and walks to K-Mart. :)


rsprake
2010-08-26 19:56:01

@ nate, thanks for the map. I am not sure I quite understand the Frick park segment though and I am a little afraid my road bike won't cut it.


I think for now my plan is to come down commercial from sq'ill and then return home up Braddock through the 376 interchange.


sarah_q
2010-08-26 20:10:33

First thing you do is get a bunch of store owners in ETC on your side, saying their business would go up if more people from the nearby area (whichever boros) could walk or bike there.


Second thing you do is cost out the acquisition and installation of a keep-cars-out-but-let-peds-and-bikes-through gate.


Third thing you do is figure out how much less response time emergency personnel would have if they could get to and through that gate, if there was a problem at the plaza. Said emergency personnel would have a key to the gate.


When you have both business and emergency responder reasons FOR the gate, it will rapidly shut down objectors who are AGAINST the gate.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-26 20:13:36

the frick park section is actually awesome. it's all either paved or crushed limestone, and it's wide-ish and dead flat. it goes along the edge of the hollow, and is a wonderful secret shortcut from point breeze to regent square.


you just keep going along the path from the circle on reynolds, past the bocce lawns, and just follow the path.


hiddenvariable
2010-08-27 01:08:32

I take that section of Frick Park every day, on a light single speed with 28s and a more robust bike with 32s and it's fine. There is some loose gravel where they did some drainage work so just watch out for that.


rsprake
2010-08-27 12:18:58

I would bet it is a Town Center Fence. What was there before the plaza was built?


In the distant past, Union Switch and Signal. Not really relevant, but a tidbit.


jeffinpgh
2010-08-27 12:38:49

@stu--Didn't Edgewood finally agree to a busway stop, and PAT was going to renovate that train station? Or was that just a hallucination...


jeffinpgh
2010-08-27 12:40:32

It sort of reminds me of when I worked in Austin (out by the Arboretum) and the locals were opposing a bike trail up from the city because this would allow thieves to come up and steal stuff (I'm not making this up). I still have this image in my head of some guy (no doubt a Mexican) rolling down the trail with a TV strapped to his bike rack...


The same preposterous objections about "those people" were evidently raised when they started construction of the East Bay Bike Path in Rhode Island. It was built anyway, and now, proximity to the trail is listed as an amenity when selling a house in that area.


ieverhart
2010-08-27 13:07:53

That train station is now being rented by a architecture firm which is disappointing to me. I was hoping for a cafe or something along those lines.


rsprake
2010-08-27 15:15:25

Sarah, sounds like a good plan to me. Check your brakes at Forward and Beechwood before your decent. You will get your speed fix for the day going down that hill.


mick
2010-08-27 15:43:21

I take commercial almost every Sunday on my ride to Monroeville to swim with JCC masters. So yeah, I know all about it. However, I have never brought myself to ride back UP that thing, even though I know I "should" someday.


sarah_q
2010-08-27 17:01:39

@jeffinpgh, I'd have to do some research. I don't remember hearing about any deals. If there were any second thoughts on finally playing nice, though, that's five years in the past by now.


FWIW, the old Wilkinsburg train station, adjacent to the Hay/South Station, is owned outright by a private owner. I do not know its fate, or if there are any plans for either building or site.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-27 17:12:25

@sarah I wouldn't say you "should". I do see people riding up it occasionally but there's no shoulder, blind curves, step as heck and cars going too fast. I feel no compeling need to tackle it personally. Maybe someday, I won't rule it out. Certainly would be a shorter route to Squirrel Hill for me.


tabby
2010-08-27 17:26:03

I went to Allderdice for high school in the 1990's. There was a kid who was bribed a king sized snickers to go down Commercial on a bike. He was legend, and everyone (students, teachers, alike) all thought he was psychotic. While I was there, he was famous for this exploit, and his fame outlasted his attendance...


A: [blah blah blah], like that Adrian kid.

B: you mean the guy who rode down commercial?

A: yeah, that guy.

B: dude, he's real?

A: yeah, graduated two years ago.

B: he lived?


But that was a few repavings ago. It might actually be banked the proper way now. Rumor had it that if you went down fast enough (in a car) you could actually feel the car lift off in the turns. I didn't drive then, and I'm not as stupid now, so I wouldn't know for sure. But you can bet my fellow Idiots In Training tried it, and each successive class tried it too. Just so you guys know.


ejwme
2010-08-27 19:38:07

I routinely use the trail between ben hur and kensington on 23s and 25s. Might be tricky on 19s. It's definitely loose fill right now.


lyle
2010-08-27 19:43:02

the last turn at the bottom always scares the hell out of me. perhaps it's banked the wrong way. it just always feels like there's a sudden sharp acceleration and if you don't brake like hell, you'll go flying off the other side of the road, or at least into oncoming traffic.


hiddenvariable
2010-08-27 19:46:40

+1 HV on that last turn.


tabby
2010-08-27 19:51:39

I'm scared there by the Irish Center but I try to gut it out since I know it starts to go back up through the park and I want as much momentum as I can b/c I hate climbing.


Also, there's always a lot of broken glass.


I do think I "should" go up it but I am thinking Sunday at 7 a.m. type time not mid-day. Also, I "should" go up Negley and Sycamore one of these days too.


I'll look for this Frick Park shorty-cut one of these days. I'll take my commuter bike.


sarah_q
2010-08-27 19:54:16

This may or may not be relevant, but the Nine Mile Run Trail seems to finally be finished. And it's a beauty: a really nice pebble bed from (more or less) Old Brown's Hill Rd. all the way up to Commercial. The upper access road has been regraded and proper drainage put in, so probably no more puddles or mud.


From Oakland, unfortunately, you have to deal with Irvine St. and crossing the tracks over to the Duck Hollow Trail. On the whole I would find that more daunting than the mess at Braddock/I-376. (So this is not the greatest way to get from Oakland to the Townie Centre.)


ahlir
2010-08-28 03:57:50

sarah_q - could you share your route to the JCC Family Park? I have family who live near there and have been entertaining the idea of riding my bike out there some weekend.


jeg
2010-08-28 18:07:30

@jeg: there was a thread about it at some point, but that was just for a detour. i wonder if all the roads are open now. my way out that way (more for fun than commuting, so you might like to change a few things) involves going through the aforementioned 9 mile run trail, through duck hollow to braddock, along talbot ave through braddock, then up a short hill to bell ave. (if braddock is still closed) into east pittsburgh then jog right to get to bessemer ave. and go under route 30, down a big hill (linden ave.) into turtle creek. from there, i'm not entirely sure as that's never been a destination of mine, but it looks like you could take grant to james or lynn to monroeville. my experience of traffic around that way is that it's pretty light and mostly courteous.


as for the 9 mile run trail:


@Ahlir: This may or may not be relevant, but the Nine Mile Run Trail seems to finally be finished. And it's a beauty: a really nice pebble bed from (more or less) Old Brown's Hill Rd.


i was really impressed when i rode through there. the hill from the bridge headed toward duck hollow is quite steep and pebble, but my 23s stuck to it like glue. i was sure i'd have to walk, but it was packed like asphalt. very nice!


hiddenvariable
2010-08-28 20:11:58

oh, here is the thread about biking to monroeville, complete with sarah_q's route.


hiddenvariable
2010-08-28 20:14:09

I'm still going that way. The detour is still in effect but nonetheless it's a better ride. I'll stick to it even after Braddock is open through turtle creek.


sarah_q
2010-08-29 03:36:46

I just found this discussion and was excited to find other people who are passionate about wanting a connection via Laurel St to Edgewood Towne Center, for pedestrians & bicycles (but not cars). I've wanted this connection since I moved to Edgewood 18 years ago. It's so obviously a good thing for people who want the health or environmental benefits of walking or biking to the store, or would like to be able to send their kids to Giant Eagle to pick up a little food, and don't want to risk the pedestrian-hostile intersections along Braddock Ave.


Mary Shaw & Roy Weil, two of Pittsburgh's most tenacious bicycle advocates, had a great success in opening up a formerly-fenced-off connection between Shadyside and Mellon Park via Festival Way: http://shaw-weil.com/projects/Create%20Low%20traffic%20Route%20Through%20Shadyside,%20Connection%20To%20Beechwood%20Bike%20Lanes.htm#_Toc150263928 . That connection has helped hundreds of people. We should promote this Laurel St idea using that example. Who is interested in joining the effort (writing letters, etc)? email me: ph at cs.cmu.edu


paulheckbert
2011-04-21 23:46:18

I use that route almost everyday, next step is to get it paved!


About Edgewood, I've mentioned it to some of my neighbors at Edgewood get togethers and they seemed to be afraid of the "rif raff" it might attract. Sending an email now.


rsprake
2011-04-22 00:04:19

I live right near where you are talking about. I would love, LOVE I say, having that opened up. Its a PITA to have to go all the way around to get to Giant Eagle or the gym.


I do see pedestrians cutting through there on a regular bases (people i don't recognize carrying bags and clearly passing through the neighborhood). So I think the *ahem* 'riff-raff'* argument is already moot.


---

* The fact that this argument is made, much less actually acted upon saddens me.


myddrin
2011-04-22 12:13:31

We need an Edgewood role call.


rsprake
2011-04-22 13:09:56

I live nearby and sometimes shop @ Kmart with my car. I never bike there and really hate driving there. I'm pretty sure once Target opens in Shady Liberty my Kmart days will be over. My BigBoxStore needs are pretty small, but I do get some stuff there. I definitely would use Edgewood more if I could bike there comfortably (w/minimal fear of traffic & mean kids).


[Edit] and that would include the strip mall with the fabulous Thriftique.


pseudacris
2011-04-22 14:43:32

Ryan (rsprake) and I spoke before the Edgewood Borough Council yesterday evening (May 2), gave them a map and photo (below) and recommended that a gate be opened on Laurel St to permit bicyclists and pedestrians and wheelchairs through, but not motorcycles or cars. I pointed out the benefits to Edgewood residents (my daughter, just that day, asked me to drive her to KMart in Edgewood Towne Centre, which would have been a 5 block walk, if not for the locked gate!!), good for exercise for young & old, less road traffic, safer than walking/biking on Braddock, makes Edgewood more connected, can easily send your teenage kids to Giant Eagle to pick up a gallon of milk...


The gate is not on borough property, but is on private property (the Towne Centre), but there has been a dialog about the gate, historically. Some members of the council were strongly in favor of our proposal, said they'd use it, others brought up the history of problems when the gate was open in the past: vandalism, partying, noises at night. A possible big benefit for Edgewood would be to relieve parking for the borough when there are big events (e.g. swim meets) at the Edgewood Club (a few blocks from the gate) - perhaps we could get E.T.C. to allow club visitors to park in that typically-vacant corner of the KMart lot and walk to the club, instead of clogging Edgewood streets. But that would take a lot of negotiating with the E.T.C. managers, I would guess.


I would hope that we can sell this as a win-win: Edgewood residents get better access to shopping and reduced parking crunch and Edgewood Towne Centre gets more customers.


Would you all like to hear updates as this effort continues?


the handout:



paulheckbert
2011-05-03 14:23:40

Some members of the council were strongly in favor of our proposal, said they'd use it, others brought up the history of problems when the gate was open in the past: vandalism, partying, noises at night.


Errrrr.... close the gate when the majority of stores at ETC are closed? The giant eagle closes at 11, seems like a reasonable party-prevention time. Cops are in that neighborhood often (in a good way) so it seems that it shouldn't be an issue to have them close it.


As someone who lives more or less on top of the gate, I'm sure that there is a reasonable compromise to be made on this.


myddrin
2011-05-03 14:30:07

Apparently during the negotiations to allow people to park there during swim meets ETC stated that they don't want the responsibility of having to open or close the gate every day.


rsprake
2011-05-03 14:34:29

Of course... since its not on borough property the cops shouldn't be responsible either. Sometimes thinking before I post would be good..


PM me next time you head to a council meeting, I'd like to tag along and show solidarity if this comes up again.


myddrin
2011-05-03 14:40:35

Motorize it?


lyle
2011-05-03 14:41:21

Will do myddrin.


rsprake
2011-05-03 14:43:38

This may not be a practical solution...

but the gate could be put on either a timed lock or a lock with a swipe-card, which you'd get it like a parking pass, to allow locals to get through.


It's not foolproof, but an overhead light and maybe a CCTV might be enough to minimize damage.


ahlir
2011-05-03 16:05:38

Put a little money and technology into it. Yes, motorize the gate, activated by a motion-sensitive switch which also activates a light and a camera. And a big sign saying that anyone going through there off-hours will be photographed. What you get is BETTER security with improved access.


The rabble, knowing they will be photographed, keep themselves out. Rabble who do not keep themselves out will be tracked. Law-abiding folks (read: paying customers) can pass through as they please.


I would NOT want a big honking dusk-to-dawn light, and a gate that might-be/might-not-be open, depending on when & whether it's needed.


Dreaming slightly here, I wonder if it's possible to have a push-button switch on the gate to open only far enough to allow pedestrians and cyclists through, but motion sensitive to open it fully to let vehicles through.


stuinmccandless
2011-05-03 17:47:22

A camera plus a sign like "Private Property. Access Between 11 PM and 7 AM Prohibited. Violators Will Be Photographed and Prosecuted." might be all you need. If the camera requires more light, use one with baffles so it doesn't annoy the neighbors and only lights the gate area.


If that's insufficient, you can always consider a high-tech gate and swipe-cards later, but that seems like it would be significantly more expensive.


steven
2011-05-03 19:43:07

"The gate is not on borough property, but is on private property..."


I hate to be a downer, because it sounds like access through that area would be a benefit to residents. However, you might be barking up the wrong tree. The Borough has no more business involving itself in this issue than it would if your neighbors wanted to walk through a gate in your yard.


Somehow you need to get to whomever owns Edgewood Town Center. (The Google machine tells me "Edgewood Station LLC" of Cincinnati owns ETC.) Might be trouble convincing an out-of-town owner.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-05-03 21:17:33

Might be trouble convincing an out-of-town owner.


However, the borough might be able to help. Oh.


ALKLM, the issue isn't neighbors wanting to walk *through* the ETC property, it's neighbors wanting to patronize the ETC business.


I'd think the ETC tenants might have some interest in that as well.


lyle
2011-05-03 21:45:50

@Lyle-apparently this isn't a new issue. Don't you think the ETC management/ownership group would have opened that gate by now if it wanted to or if their tenants wanted it?


(Also, I don't represent that the issue is walking "through" property, I only say "walking through a gate.")


And of course the Borough might be able to help. They might be able to write a letter or attempt a conversation with the ownership/management. But at the end of the day, it's private property.


My point is I would suggest interested parties pursue it with ETC management/ownership and/or ETC tenant businesses.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-05-03 22:43:26

@paulheckbert & @rsprake


THANK YOU for doing that!


pseudacris
2011-05-03 22:45:37

Just as extra information:


-- the current gate might be on Towne (pronounced townee) property, but the other side of the bridge will be Edgewood property, so other that convincing ETC to have the gate removed, there's no private property issue.


-- In London England you have communal gardens with a locked gate (think big city block, row houses all around with a big space in the middle). You live on the block, you have a key. Same idea as parking zones around here. If you use cards you don't have to worry about keeping track of the keys.


ahlir
2011-05-04 00:06:50

I would very definitely use that entrance to go and shop at ETC more frequently. I've looked sadly at that gate from my bicycle a couple of times.


I'm not in Edgewood, I live over the border in the big bad city of Pittsburgh.


nfranzen
2011-05-04 00:58:16

Since they locked the gate I shop at EEFC more since I don't ride through the ETC lot. Still, in all honesty, most of the time I do just want to pass through to/from work. I don't think that should really be a problem for ETC or the local residents though anyway.


It sounds like the problem could be pretty easily solved by making the gateway more lit and inviting and encourage locals to use it. That in itself should discourage the loiterers. Then just make sure the cops include that area in the patrolling that they are already doing of the parking lot and neighborhood and it won't be a comfortable hangout.


Really I think it would be easy, no camera or pass cards required.


Was anyone here before ETC was built? Where did that road and overpass go before the plaza?


tabby
2011-05-04 02:09:25

As I was walkin' I saw a sign there

And that sign said "No trespassing"

But on the other side

It didn't say nothin!

That side was made for you and me!


from "This Land Is Your Land", Woody Guthrie


stuinmccandless
2011-05-04 02:15:50

I'm cynical here. Edgewood has a history of racism.


In this century, I've heard a long-time resident talk boastfully about how, when he was growing up (probably in the 1960's, but maybe in the 70's), they wouldn't let black people drive through Edgewood.


A black friend tells me that he gets hassled by police for riding through on his bicycle.


I don't think you can find a way to open that gate to pedestrians and still keep black kids from Wilkinsburg from using it (nto that anyone from here would try). I think there are folks in Edgewood that will do whatever they feel is necessary to keep that from happening.


I believe that, unless you find a way to counter that, you won't get that gate open.


mick
2011-05-04 02:59:33

@Mick- the black kids from Wilkinsburg are using it now, adults too. Obviously not as many who would use it if it were actually open, but I've seen people scale over it as well as shimmy through the bars. Like every time I'm over there I see it, not just once in a while.


Seems to me, once again that they might as well just open it since the "undesirables" are still able to breach the gate.


tabby
2011-05-04 04:33:37

As one council member noted, when the gate was closed, gas was not $4 a gallon. Times are different and the neighborhood is turning over with "young" people. I put "young" in quotes because I am turning 34 un July. My street alone has four new young families/ couples who just moved in the last two years.


rsprake
2011-05-04 13:31:55

Don't you think the ETC management/ownership group would have opened that gate by now if it wanted to or if their tenants wanted it?


Yeah, but 20 years ago there wasn't a Waterfront or a Waterworks Walmart or a Sliberty Target, or a TraderJoes or a WholeFoods, so their "catchment area" was a lot larger than it is now.


I've seen people scale over it as well as shimmy through the bars.


Only the skinny ones.


lyle
2011-05-04 14:21:14

Sounds like a good time to make a tangential reference to Tim Wise.


I'd bet that anyone with a serious objection to this is over 50, or not far from it.


stuinmccandless
2011-05-04 14:36:11

Don't you think the ETC management/ownership group would have opened that gate by now if it wanted to or if their tenants wanted it?


It was open at one point but as a favor to Edgewood they closed it and like Lyle said, that was before The Waterfront etc. From what I can tell the neighborhood is divided on it being closed or open with more energy being on our side. Some people just don't seem to care and will drive no matter what. Before the meeting I figured it was an Edgewood fence, but now we know it's not and who to talk to. But that doesn't mean that we still don't need Edgewood's support.


rsprake
2011-05-04 15:18:33

@rsprake: my point exactly. All the Borough likely can do is "support" with a letter or resolution, etc. Good luck with the management/ownership group.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-05-04 21:09:45

Perhaps a simultaneous write-in campaign to the owners of the plaza?


myddrin
2011-05-05 12:30:56

I would suggest approaching the managers of the individual stores, who would then go to the management group, they are the ones with the real stake in this.


edmonds59
2011-05-05 13:30:26

@rsprake It was open at one point but as a favor to Edgewood they closed it It was open at one point but as a favor to Edgewood they closed it...


So the motivation for the business to close it came from Edgewood?


How many complaints would it take to get it closed again?


Seems to me you would need to let the owners know that Edgewood is totally behind re-opening it.


I think getting and keeping the gate open will require a few people to be civicly active about it for a long time. That would be great!


If you go in thinking that you need to do a little convincing and the gate will open - and stay open - you'll be disappointed.


To get that gate open, you need to change the Edgewood "community." IMO, it's ripe for change, but it won't be easy.


mick
2011-05-05 14:51:50

I got a call from Gina Sonnik of Phillips Edison today. They're the owners of Edgewood Towne Centre. Gina took over the job of managing ETC property. She is gsonnik@phillipsedison.com (see also http://www.phillipsedison.com/Properties/Default.aspx?State=Pennsylvania&IDProperty=23 )


She's going to double-check that the gate is on ETC property.

Edgewood Borough has a key to the gate, currently.

Gina and ETC want to work closely with Edgewood (council, police, residents) regarding concerns about crime, trash, broken glass, etc.


I brought up the win-win aspects of this for both sides: Edgewood residents shop at KMart, Giant Eagle, Swissvale post office, etc more easily, parents could send their kids unaccompanied, much safer than walking or biking on Braddock Ave, people who work in ETC could get there more easily, and more business for ETC (Edgewoodians will walk/bike there instead of getting in their car and driving to Waterfront, East Liberty, etc).

I also mentioned the idea from the meeting that it might be nice on occasion to use the KMart lot for Edgewood Club swim meet overflow parking and that doing so might give ETC a little bit of additional business. She didn't immediately reject that idea.


She asked if we wanted the gate open 9am-9pm only, or 24 hours, and I said we hadn't gotten that specific yet.


She seemed to offer less resistance to the idea than some of the Edgewood borough council members, and she volunteered to come to the next council meeting to discuss it! So tentatively I guess we can expect to see her there on May 16, 7:30pm (Edgewood Borough Offices, 2nd floor, 2 Race St, Edgewood, PA, 15218). See http://www.edgewood.pgh.pa.us/edgewood-govtadmin.htm for more info on Edgewood Borough Council.


----

What you-all can do to help:

* Talk to Edgewood Towne Centre business owners, get them to communicate with Phillips Edison (Gina Sonnik in particular, I guess) to let her know that they'd like the gate opened for bike/peds.

* Talk to Edgewood residents and ask them to communicate with an Edgewood Borough Council member today to get the gate opened for bike/peds.

* Do so yourself.

* Come to the borough council meeting on Monday May 16 (see above) and voice your support. If you're an Edgewood resident then your voice will definitely help.

* If you know someone who lives on or near Laurel St where the proposed gate would be then support from them would carry particular weight.

* The latest word from borough council is that the last time the gate issue came up, a written agreement was drafted, but ETC wanted the borough to assume too many liabilities and maintenance responsibilities, so if you're knowledgeable about such things, maybe come to the council meeting?


paulheckbert
2011-05-06 19:07:04

thanks for the update, Paul. Sounds like ETC will go along with whatever Edgewood residents decide. I hope the residents will be able to come up with a solution they're comfortable with.


tabby
2011-05-07 14:32:06

Reminder: the Edgewood Borough Council will probably discuss the proposal we made for a bike/ped gate at Laurel St (near KMart end of Edgewood Towne Centre) at its meeting this evening: May 16, 7:30pm (Edgewood Borough Offices, 2nd floor, 2 Race St, Edgewood, PA, 15218). Please come out if you are willing to show your support, perhaps say a few sentences why, and especially if you live or work in Edgewood. thanks.


paulheckbert
2011-05-16 16:38:34

This is depressing.


There was a brief discussion of the gate at the 5/16 Borough Council meeting, but the more critical meeting to discuss it was tonight (6/13), not with the entire Borough Council, but at a meeting of the Community Development Committee. There were two Edgewood residents there in favor of opening the gate (Rob Knapp and me) and six (plus 2 kids) who were opposed.


Those opposed mostly lived on or near Laurel St. They brought up several objections:

* when the gate was "open" in the past (e.g. a hole cut in the cyclone fence big enough to slip through) people going through it would dump trash in their yards,

* terrorized their kids,

* broke into cars,

* left shopping carts there,

* people from Wilkinsburg go through there,

* we prefer to be a cul-de-sac; we want to be walled off from Wilkinsburg and Swissvale (one person said),

* "those people" would make the playground on Laurel St less safe,

* when the gate was open/breached, we had 200 people per day going through, now that the gate is more impenetrable (must be scaled), that's down to 20 per day.

Rob and I spoke up in favor, recommending a trial period, mentioning the safety and car traffic benefits of kids not walking/driving on Braddock. Rob pointed out, quite rightly I believe, that the extreme scofflaws are the ones still hopping over the gate, so if the gate were opened, the traffic we'd gain would be much more law-abiding. I pointed out that I live five blocks from the gate and I've had my car broken into.


I suspect that the turnout tonight was not representative, but was the result of someone (perhaps even a committee member) drumming up resistance.


If we do nothing more, the committee will report back to the borough council at the 6/26 meeting that "the majority of borough residents are strongly opposed" to opening the gate to bicyclists & pedestrians, and this gate will remain closed, probably for years. It would be sad to see inertia, fear, and traces of xenophobia and racism prevail, but that's what's about to happen, it seems.


If you care about this connection, please WRITE A LETTER NOW, this minute, explaining why you favor a pedestrian & bicycle gate, how it would affect you, and why you think the positives outweigh the negatives. Address it to Pat Schaefer, Borough Council President, 2 Race St, Edgewood, PA, 15218. And/or cc me at ph@cs.cmu.edu and I'll forward it to her.


paulheckbert
2011-06-14 00:14:37

I sent you a note. As I said, I'm a local though not an Edgewood resident. It would sure be nice to have the gate open.


nfranzen
2011-06-14 00:58:01

I'd write a letter, but like Nate above, I'm not an Edgewood resident. I'm a Swissvaler (would use the route to commute from home to work and shop at TC on my way home again), do you still want me to say anything?


tabby
2011-06-14 03:14:35

Is Edgewood Towne Center actually in Edgewood?


I'm asking that as a serious question. The city lines do crazy things all over Regent Square. At one point the Edgewood-Swissvale border runs down the middle of South Braddock Ave. That's why all the alcohol is sold on one side on the street in the Regent Square business district. The other side is dry.


Just wondering if we can make a case based on increased revenue for the borough.


Is it ok to submit two letters from one household? I'm married to that other letter writer, but I can write one, too.


Also -- earlier in the thread there was talk of a Regent Square neighborhood group. We're in.


mmfranzen
2011-06-14 13:36:15

Write the two letters as you may both have separate perspectives.


rsprake
2011-06-14 13:40:18

Will do.


Does the Regent Square group exist? Are you interested in starting one?


Feel free to PM me or Nate (above). Gmail is good, too. marymeg AT


mmfranzen
2011-06-14 13:46:33

As Paul said, I was there too. I have a lot of thoughts about this that I need to sort out, so I will be posting some longer thoughts about this over the weekend. (Either here or at my blog.)


I do think that letting the council know that there is a strong cycling community in the area is a good idea. (Especially if having that gate open means that you'd be frequenting ETC more often.)


I see a lot of people on bikes on that end of my commute, but I kind of got the impression that some people there didn't think there were many bikes or pedestrians in the area.


myddrin
2011-06-15 16:06:14

exactly


tabby
2011-06-15 17:40:13

As a Council member in a different Borough, and for what it's worth...


Having bodies in the room representing your position goes a really long way toward success in Borough politics. If there is a next meeting, take a cue from the "organized resistance," and organize your own.


I've never been swayed by a letter - but live bodies are very convincing. And, letters from non-residents may work against you.


Finally, I still think working directly with the property owner/manager is the way to go. Whether the gate is their property or the Borough's, having their support would weigh very heavily on your side. Without it, I don't like your chances.


(Don't mean to be negative, just thought some perspective from the other side of the table might provide some context. Good luck.)


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-15 20:16:19

The trouble here is that I don't think any of us knew it was going to be this kind of meeting. From my understanding it was meant to be a discussion where we talked about potential solutions. The "pro gate being open" people didn't have an opportunity to organize a group to show support where the "anti gate" people organized and showed up to the meeting. Rob and Paul have a better perspective since they both made it to the meeting where I wasn't able to because of work.


rsprake
2011-06-15 20:23:06

Chatting-up Council members after meetings goes a long way too. They're your neighbors, and they probably love it when reasonable people who care about their neighborhood attend meetings to participate in the process (I know I do). Being friendly after a meeting is a good way to get in the loop about those types of things.


I know I have encouraged neighbors to attend to represent issues I was interested both before I was elected and after. I assumed every meeting was an opportunity to make a statement with bodies.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-15 20:26:37

To be clear, this wasn't a council meeting. It was an independent body getting together to discuss this specific issue.


rsprake
2011-06-15 20:37:16

Ok. Just trying to help. No worries.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-15 20:53:11

I do appreciate the perspective.


rsprake
2011-06-15 21:02:07

ALMKLM And, letters from non-residents may work against you.


+1


Particularly for Edgewood. I've never seen another suburban newsletter that referred to people from outside the little divided, borough area as "out of towners."


mick
2011-06-15 22:41:54

All the Borough likely can do is "support" with a letter or resolution, etc. Good luck with the management/ownership group.


Assuming you can get the borough on board, there's always good ol' eminent domain. This would be a fairly classic case of acquiring just a little bit of private property for a public purpose. Not that different from building a highway when it comes down to it.


ieverhart
2011-06-16 03:59:25

My guess is the ETC ownership has deeper pockets than the Borough. They can afford to just bleed out the Borough with a court battle over eminent domain if they choose. That's why it's uncommon to see Boroughs exercise that option.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-16 04:05:40

@ At Least - I never thought about it that way. My sense of it (not having a very deep understanding of the scope of boroughs' powers in this realm) is that the borough would probably ultimately win such a court battle, though at great expense to both sides. To the extent it's a battle of wills/budgets, yeah. On the other hand, couldn't a borough council make life really difficult for a big commercial landowner like that. Like, all of a sudden, proposing to raise property taxes on all commercial properties over X acres?


I think the City used eminent domain to get the land for the parking lot at the east end of the Jail Trail, over the objections of the owner of that land, who was (and is, on the remainder) operating a profitable parking lot business. Maybe there's a difference between a Second Class City and a borough, or just as you say, in the relative resources of the municipality and the landowner. But if memory serves, local bicycle projects have been furthered with eminent domain in the past.


ieverhart
2011-06-16 04:29:34

it was my understanding that the landowner was ok with opening the gate provided the borough was also ok with it. i haven't read through the thread in a while, but i seem to recall that they weren't interested in opening the gate if edgewood wanted it kept closed.


it doesn't seem like an eminent domain concern, at any rate. even if the legal costs were nil, the borough surely wouldn't want to justly compensate the landowner, especially given the fact that the landowner has essentially decided to act as the borough decides.


hiddenvariable
2011-06-16 06:04:21

I Googled Edgewood's 2011 annual budget: $2.67 million. $1 Million of that is for police. That doesn't leave a whole lot. They have a population of a little over 3000 people. Our budget is less than that, and I know we don't have the means to fight protracted legal battles of that sort. Any victory would be pyrrhic.


In contrast, the City of Pittsburgh's 2011 budget is about $450 Million. There are a little more than 300,000 residents.


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-16 11:27:59

According to their representative, ETC will do whatever the borough decides. They also are trying to get Edgewood to do a land swap. Edgewood would take control of that part of their land in exchange for something other part.


That is a tiny-tiny budget! IIRC, my hometown (of 206 people (400 cows) in the mid-80's) had a budget of about 1/3 of that... and no police to maintain.


Of course, the majority of that budget was snow removal.... :)


myddrin
2011-06-16 12:14:46

a little off topic, but on thiegles's streetsblog article...


"...meaning that 64 percent of “non-traffic” vehicular fatalities still involve children being run over..."


jeez.


ejwme
2011-06-16 16:50:30

i wondered about that. specifically, i wonder what a "non-traffic" vehicular fatality might be. it seems like that statement might be trivial.


hiddenvariable
2011-06-16 16:52:59

"i wonder what a "non-traffic" vehicular fatality might be."


I'm guessing being hit while on a sidewalk - as happened yesterday.


marko82
2011-06-16 17:52:58

How do they classify an automobile striking a house? Non-traffic domestic vehicular collision? Close encounter of the fifth kind?


atleastmykidsloveme
2011-06-16 17:56:38

"Domestic disturbance."


reddan
2011-06-16 18:28:23

But 64 is such a large number, it must be significant!


ejwme
2011-06-16 18:34:21

I believe that Edgewood borough council will discuss this issue this evening, 7:30pm, and the committee we met with a few weeks ago will give their report. I imagine their summary will be "the residents don't want a gate opened", unfortunately, even though I don't think that opinion is representative of the entire borough, but just this pocket of vocal opponents. If you're an Edgewood resident, come to the meeting if you can.


paulheckbert
2011-06-27 18:58:38

What I wrote just above (that the next Edgewood council mtg will be tonight, 6/27) is incorrect. The next meeting is Tue 7/5. I think I'll work on a petition.


paulheckbert
2011-06-27 22:10:03

thanks Paul, I appreciate your efforts and am waiting anxiously from the sidelines. I'm glad you have a little time to circulate a petition before the meeting.


tabby
2011-06-27 23:20:08

I know this question came up earlier in this discussion ---


Is there any value in input from non-Edgewood residents?


If so, I would be happy to help with the petition or attend the meeting. I live in Park Place, so I'm close to the area in question, but on the city side of the line.


mmfranzen
2011-06-28 19:07:51

If I didn't already have a double booking for the evening of Tu7/5, I'd attend. Turns out I am on good terms with their Council VP.


stuinmccandless
2011-06-28 21:47:16

Is this meeting happening tonight? Should local (albeit non-Edgewood) cyclists attend?


mmfranzen
2011-07-05 16:49:31