BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

This really upsets me and scares me. I just pray everybody comes out of this ok and catch the driver.

Ugh. Any reports as to where these people were taken? I hope they're ok.

Hope they're okay. That's an unforgiving road - no shoulder, so no margin for error. Cars at high speeds - a lot of whom just came off 28, flew over the bridge and still have that highway high.

Unfortunately, cars speed on Washington Blvd in the other direction, too. Drivers see four lanes and very few traffic lights, and they decide they're on the highway.

Hoping these folks are ok, hoping we as the cycling community can help in some way.

That sounds horrible! Hope everyone makes a full recovery -_-

Gotta say that I'm curious about why this happened in regards to the driver.....

If the accident happened this morning, a Holiday-Monday (no work-traffic), at 7:30am (too early), and 2-cyclists were hit at the same time (too intense); that was probably not because there was traffic on the Blvd, or not enough space on the road -both problematic issues on that street. I gotta say that instead, that driver must NOT have been paying attention whatsoever to what he was doing, or was incapacitaed somehow -period. Even if the driver was speeding, there is enough distance-clearance to see ahead on the road and steer clear from cars-cyclists-etc on the road..... whoever that-asswhipe was just no paying attention, which I think makes this accident even more senseless and unexcusable....... unless, the driver was just mentally f'up and did it on purpose - which is f'ing worst.

Man.... hoepfully they'll be able to get the bastard(s)!!!!

The Trib says they were taken to UPMC Presbyterian. One person suffered a head injury and the other a leg injury. One person is in stable condition and the other in critical condition.

I hope they both have a speedy recovery.

On the Kdka noon news, a cyclist who was riding with those who were struck said that the offending driver went around a car that was in the righthand lane behind the cyclists and then got back over and took out one of the cyclist's front wheels and caused the crash. I believe that is what he said. Correct me if I am wrong.

Goddamn. Wasn't this even the morning of the rescheduled ride of silence?

The two guys who crashed are very close friends of mine and I've been on the phone with friends and family members most of the day on and off.

I am home in Ohio and not there but from what I have heard Stefb's report is pretty close. My friends had come down zoo hill and were headed toward ARB when a car pulled around them and then cut them off, very likely clipping the front wheel of the lead rider, certainly coming close enough to cause a crash. Both of the injured riders are extremely skilled cyclists with whom I have ridden well more than ten thousand miles in the last five years and that road is one they know well and ride regularly. So there was no confusion about traffic patterns or anything else at that intersection. I have been told they were very clearly and aggressively cut off by the driver of the car who did leave the scene without stopping.

The lead rider was very seriously injured, his wife just told me it was mostly on his left side. His scapula is broken in a couple of places, his elbow is broken, he has broken ribs and a pneumothorax (collapsed lung). His pelvis is pretty well f'ed up and damage is extensive to the hip joint. He is coherent and while probably concussed shows no sign of serous head trauma. He is in the ICU as they continue to monitor him and plan treatment. He will be in the hospital for some time.

The second rider, probably has a broken cheek bone, a pretty deep cut above his eye, and likely a concussion. I have spoken to him on the phone twice today and can say he is doing pretty well--all things considered. I believe he is staying in the hospital overnight for observation.

A third friend was with them but was able to avoid crashing.

That's all I know at this point and really all anyone knows. I don't know where the investigation of the hit and run incident itself stands.

As I know what is going on, and if the parties involved are amenable, I will update you on their progress.

Jeff

Thanks for the update, Jeff. Let them know we're pulling for them.

Oh how horrible! I wish them both a speedy and complete recovery.

Horrible indeed. At least there were a few witnesses & hopefully something will come out of their accounts to track down the driver. Well wishes to your friends, Jeff.

If this is the same gold SUV then the driver is aggressive towards cyclists. I have been harassed at least twice in Oakland near the Pitt campus. Not just the usual "hey Lance!" type BS but serious harassment where I feared for my safety. I hope they get they get this jerk off the road.

Jeff, my heart goes out to your friends and I wish them both a speedy recovery.

This is all getting ridiculous. Earlier today I was coming west on E Liberty Blvd and another car was flying down the bike lane. No one has regards for anyone anymore.

Thanks for the update, Jeff. This is terrible news. I'm passing the info re: gold SUV along to the cops. They may reach out to those of you who have had run-ins with a gold SUV. Three people posted to our fb page with stories involving a gold SUV.

Jeff, did any of the riders get a description of the driver?

This is the first I'm hearing about this Gold SUV. Maybe if everyone can post any info on it the have or what area and roads the have seen it we can figure out who is driving it and report them.

The thing about motorists is -- they tend to frequent the same places. I'm willing to sit and photograph gold SUVs for a few hours a day, if anyone else wants to trade shifts.

maybe all the people who've had encounters can share the time of day, so that we can concentrate on those times?

Too bad it isn't a normal weekday during commuting time where chances are they're heading to work rather than some odd holiday event.

Just wondering if they gave the names of the cyclists injured??I often cycle in group rides and I hope it's nobody I know.I feel very bad for these 2 cyclists and pray they get better real soon.I will say some prayers for them.

wow, that sucks, hope they both come out of it ok and able to ride again.

i assume the "don't post details on the internet" speech must have occurred by the way the thread reads, but hope they find the asshole. and dan, not everyone has the day off today...

The Post Gazette just published the identity of the two cyclists:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11150/1150254-100.stm

So very shaken by this event; as an occasional lurker and rare poster, i am moved to send healing energy to the two men who were injured and want to wrap my arms around those who know and love them on behalf of the entire Pittsburgh cycling community. If only cagers who don't bike could appreciate how vulnerable we are out on the roads, and how precarious is the balance between wheeling down our driveways at the end of a good, hard ride and being wheeled into a trauma center fading in and out of consciousness.

So, if it turns out, as it sounds, that this was an intentional act, it is way, way, way beyond time for Steven Zappala to pull his balls out of his filing cabinet or wherever he keeps them, stop worrying about his political career, and do something about this. This is bullshit.

This is why I try to ride more on trails,instead of street cycling.I used to cycle more on roads,but over the past few years,I notice more drivers being careless and unnconcearned for cyclists.Praying they catch this creep,and also praying both Doctors a speedy recovery!!

That sucks. Wishing them swift recovery.

This just sucks! I have been seeing so much bad driving since the weather got nice it's scary. I hope they get this piece-of-shit driver and lock him/her up for a few years. Maybe ‘making friends’ on the inside of a penitentiary will show them the errors of their aggression towards others.

Good luck to the cyclists involved, I hope your recovery is swift.

This is terrible to hear, I wish them both a quick and speedy recovery. On a side note, I drive through Oakland down 5th/Wa Blvd to Fox Chapel everyday in a gold SUV so make sure its not me you guys go lynching...

Both times I encountered an aggressive gold SUV I was commuting to Pitt in Oakland in the morning. Once was on Bartlett and Panther Hollow at the stop light. The other was near the Carnegie Library on Roberto Clemente Drive.

There are 500 gold aggressive suv's in town. There are 500 each of black, blue, and silver too. A partial plate would be helpful. We don't know the details... so chill on making unnecessary enemies. Stay friendly above all else, but keep an eye out. Until today, things have been pretty friendly in town for a year or so for us, and don't forget that.

I am pissed & on lookout, trust me. When some asshole takes out 2 pediatric physicians on an early morning ride, the community needs to hear the bell... tell your friends & neighbors about it. 4 foot passing law sounds pretty good as well. Anything to bring extra penalties for this type of BS is good by me.

I have some non cyclist friends who posted the story on their own on their fb accounts. I usually post things that get no comments or don't get reposted, but this seems different. Maybe people in general will take the problem more seriously because the cyclists were experienced, pediatric doctors, there were witnesses, and the injuries are critical. Maybe this will make motorists think about their speed. I saw another interview with a friend of those injured who said that the driver went around three cars and then went around the cyclists and saved a second, which is usually the case. People blow past me to save about a second and then I end up right behind him/her at a light.

The PG has a longer article this morning that includes an interview with Dr. Finder.

How awful, seriously

I sincerely pray that the two injured cyclists make a full recovery, and those who know their families, please let them know that our thoughts are with them -_-

In regards to the f'ing driver who caused this, I hope he/she is found out & brought to justice..... and soon.

And if someone feels like organizing a solidarity-ride in support not-only of the injured cyclists & their families, but to also show the Pittsburgh community that we our outraged & need THEIR support to bring the guilty to justice & to make the streets safer, count me in.

Seriously, how awful

Read the comments. The "cyclists were asking for it" people are drivers. Not the majority, but they are out there.

http://www.wtae.com/news/28071574/detail.html

Education is so important. Cyclists have a right to be on the road. And manslaughter is still illegal, even if you don't like having to slow down for 30 seconds to yield the right away.

So according to the PG it's a gold sedan and not a gold SUV?

The DA should request the identities of the WTAE commenters. It wouldn't be the first time the perpetrator or his friends showed up to talk smack.

ugh, those WTAE comments are upsetting. They're not just blathering on about cyclists, they sincerely think that 1) you have to "maintain the speed limit" to be on a road and that 2) all cyclists never obey traffic laws. And it seems that driving dangerously on a dangerous road gives you the privilege of saying it's too dangerous for other people to be on your road.

Should we set up an account for people to donate towards a reward? Or do the police already have leads?

Their standing in the community aside, if there are no witnesses then it's simply a hit and run and a light slap on the wrist.

It's also been a year since the Parker tragedy at Harts Run Road. I wonder if we should expect anything from the DA other than sympathy?

On a related note...

A friend of mine was struck by a vehicle a few days (week?) ago on 5th ave.

The vehicle struck his back, then pushed him a bit, then the driver apparently started paying attention and turned around and sped off.

This was on a Sunday morning with no traffic

No police report was filed. I'll try and get some more details out of him

I hate to hear of this... it brings such bad memories of my brother's death last year... Please send my sincere best wishes to the families for a speedy recovery to both men...

Kathi

So when is the ride to the DA's office?

This is not the time for a silent ride.

edmonds wrote: "So when is the ride to the DA's office?

This is not the time for a silent ride."

I second this... time & date? Anyone?

DA is useless. Nothing more than an instrument of a blind, ineffective system to the level of justice we want.

We should focus on legislation: make driving expensive, training intensive and intrusive to personal liberty. Operating a motor vehicle is a privilege not a right. Treat all drivers like we treat truckers with CDLs.

More from the Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11151/1150333-53-0.stm

@Sloaps... I agree that legislation is needed, and that the DA might not be able to do jack-shit about the situtaion, but he & the community still needs to hear our voices & presence.

I am instituting the petition at my brother's ride on July 10th.. Legislative changes are sorely needed. Perhaps the families will join us in getting this accomplished...Those of us that have experienced this first hand need to join together in Harrisburg when it is possible.

Kathi

Well, I know that its fraught with peril but I left a comment at wtae.

Some truly disgusting people in the world.

Rants and Raves on Craigslist also full of the expeceted vitriol.....

So many people who really don't belong in civilized society... what a shame.

Oh, salty, I eat peril for breakfast. Mmmm.

Instead of leaving a comment on WTAE's comment-page, I sent a comment directly to their newsroom via the 'contact us' link. Maybe if others did this too they might see this as a serious story to cover, like the woman hit last year in Mt. Lebbonon pushing a stroller. Keep it level headed, and don't forget to thank them for covering this as well as they have so far. I included a personal experience of being hit by a car.

If their newsroom is flooded by emails from cyclists maybe they will follow-up their coverage, and maybe the DA will notice.

I disagree that insisting the DA do his job is pointless - now this is just from memory and I'm not a legal professional or even hobbyist, but from my recollections of the Flip Flop Manslaughter, I do recall that more serious charges could have been pressed but were not due to the DA's perceived unlikeliness of conviction.

If a law was broken, and someone was caught doing it, and there is evidence proving it, it is the DA's JOB DESCRIPTION to press charges and fight the case - especially when somebody is dead because of it. Failure to do so is gross negligence, and should be pointed out, at length, at volume, publically, and as shamefully as possible. He could have a bicycle surgically implanted in his butt and it wouldn't make me sympathetic to his refusal to press appropriate charges.

These are our lives at stake, when they need not be.

Not saying legistlation isn't necessary. But legistlation is pointless when existing laws are not enforced or when broken the perpetrators are not punished.

All that aside, I do wish a speedy and full recovery to the guys - they and their friends and families will be in my prayers.

Contact your Representative today and tell them that without dedicated funding for bicycle and pedestrian projects and the Complete Streets Act of 2011, H.R. 1780, to ensure that all federally funded road projects take into account the needs of all users, states will likely reduce spending for safety features like sidewalks, crosswalks and trails.

https://www.capwiz.com/lab/issues/alert/?alertid=47902516

The DA believes he has an ethical obligation not to pursue cases which are, in his opinion, "not winnable." I might concur with his obligation, but I don't see him ever *trying* to win any of these cases either.

We need to find the creep who did this before we worry too much about what Zappala will or will not do.

yeah, it's not a land war in Asia, it's enforcing the laws in Allegheny County.

I would have hoped that he'd feel an ethical obligation to ensure that justice is served, regardless of whether our laws would win a popularity contest or not.

I'm assumine it's "wasted money" that's the issue - but he would not be the one wasting it. It would be the judges, juries, and general population that fails to recognize the seriousness of these crimes. And those issues too need to be dealt with.

Simply because one is in the minority does not automatically make one wrong. And simply because a fight isn't "winnable" doens't make it unworthy of a fight. It simply requires a champion with a spine and more humanist ethics.

But enough distracting from the topic at hand - the good news is this is getting enough attention (they even mentioned it on DUQ, who usually doesn't say anything about accidents unless it's part of the traffic report) that, if the driver can be found, justice could be served.

I believe the DA would have some influence as to how much effort and priority the Police department places on finding the creep?

I'm all for a DA ride, and agree that it should NOT be a ride of silence. He needs to know we're out here...

I refuse to read the comments on WTAE.com. All they do is get me riled up, because there is always the a-hat that posts about how the cyclists deserved it.

@et-all..... I would say that perhaps doing a ride from the Oval to Downtown-The DA's office would be a good idea..... similar to the ride-of-silence that was done before. And this one can be louder as-needed.

Anyone in? Date? Time?

Maybe this friday?

In the morning..... to match morning traffic? Meet at 7:30am, start riding at 8am?

Maybe have people-commutes to join in from different locations?

To make something like this succesful, we would need a good number of us-cyclysts to show...

So, if anyone has any ideas-recommendations-routes to take, please SHARE!!!!

I can do in the AM if it's earlier - I have to work all Fridays now (all days period, but the commute's part of the point and I think it's worth making).

Ghost Bikes are also for injured cyclists, yes?

I can make it any morning but Friday.

I would think more lead time for some ride would be advisable, there are any number of other orgs that would have members who would want to attend, WPW, Major Taylor, etc.

Just throwing a thought out-there.... like I said before, if people have ideas, please share.

I refuse to read the comments on WTAE.com. All they do is get me riled up, because there is always the a-hat that posts about how the cyclists deserved it.

well i, for one, am enjoying reading some of the comments. those from BillE, for example!

I think I'll have some peril for lunch, as well.

and LWS, is that lyle?

Here's the route. It hits the crash site, Children's and the DA's office and has various other technical details to make it comparatively safe and manageable.

http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/35972452

Let's give it a few days, and see if there are any positive developments. One week is not really enough time to wait, but in another sense it's too long. And it has the merit of being an anniversary, in a way. So I suggest either next Monday morning, meet at 7:45 ride at 8 AM (even though that's late for the commuters, it is the same time as the crash), or the following Monday if we want to give events a little more time to play out.

I like to propose that we start infiltrating council meetings and, like Mr. Pratt suggested, start calling and emailing your representatives. The power of legislative change is the most lasting change we as a critcal mass can hope to achieve. Catching one wayward, violet driver is just one small piece of this problem.

And this crosses over with the incident with the motorcycle and the cyclist last week on ARB...

Jason and I were talking about all of this yesterday and as a result of that conversation, I would like to offer to organize a group that would help get us involved with city council meetings or municiple council meetings. I'm sure everyone here on the board is from all different areas of the city but it would be great to start with a centralized idea that we can propose to our council reps in an intelligent, concise way.

Thoughts?

I don't understand why we are so hated. People complain about gas prices and the environment, but when a group of people do something about the these things they hate us. I have never ridden in another city but I hear other cities are much more accepting of cyclist than Pittsburgh, some how we need to change the views of this city.

I know Jonathan Finder - his last serious accident (with broken bones) was when he was deliberately run off the road on North Negley a few years ago.

Last time I rode on Washington Avenue, a large purple SUV folded it's passenger side mirror by hitting my elbow. No harm done byt shock me up a bit. I don't think the driver even knew they hit me. I shoulda been taking the lane.

mr marvelous - any time there's an article in any paper in any city, the same idiotic comments pop up. maybe you're more aware of it now but it's certainly not specific to pittsburgh.

"...I hear other cities are much more accepting of cyclist than Pittsburgh,..."

I would say that's not the case, if you follow these things, even in the most progressive cities, San Franciso, Portland, when things like this hit the news, you get this small idiot minority of entitled drivers who feel threatened and become vocal with the hate. But remember, those haters feel threatened for a reason, they are a minority, and getting more minor all the time.

Mr Marvelous - whenever I get to feeling like that, and it's easy, I start counting the number of people who pass me totally politely and with plenty of room and nice as can be. I go pretty slow, so I don't get very far before the number is so high I give up.

And remember - they're just the people who find a need to post on the internet - sometimes I think they make interns post inflammatory comments to boost civic outrage and site hits to increase ad revenue. Like that Pintek jagoff or whatever his name was.

I wouldn't go as far as to say we are a hated group. As others have said, there is a nasty minority of drivers who think they are smarter and more important.

A friend of mine who doesn't ride said this in response to the link.

"People are idiots. I mean, seriously, it's usually the people driving that need to have their license taken away. Cyclists are usually so mindful and aware."

I think the legislative issues are probably more at the state level than the city one. That's why I support the Bicycle Access Council -- they've been working the laws in Harrisburg purely for cyclists.

I would recommend contacting some people to see where the case is headed before doing a DA ride. It can take a very long time for a case to get anywhere near the DAs office.

I also think its safe to say that a pair of doctors have the sort of legal firepower to make sure this doesn't disappear.

There is nothing for the DA to prosecute at this point. Be patient and contact your state representative to let them know what you want.

+1 to what rob and ryan said.

@Lyle - I disagree -- the city and the municipalities around the city (i.e. - Penn Hills has jurisdiction of ARB) are responsible for issues like sharrows and road signs that warn for bike paths, railroad tracks, etc.

Politics are hyper local and the funding for projects like painting sharrows on highly cycled roads IS something that the city or municipality would fund. The state may pass the funds out to the municipalities, but unless constituants IN those municipalities ask for funds for these things, the money won't get passed down to us from the state. Hence the need for good old fashioned consciousness raising about these issues in our local governments.

The best justice that can be served on this guy is to yank his license for 90 days and force him to get around by bicycle.

@mr marvelous - I don't think it's 'us' people hate. They hate anything that they perceive as slowing them down. You only have to witness the aggression cars show toward each other to understand. A car would get the same reaction if it were driving the speed I normally ride. Car vs bike encounters remove the cost penalty involved with running a car off the road, etc. -- bikes don't cause the damage that hitting another car would. I'm honestly surprised there aren't more incidents of cars maliciously hitting bikes. Or people. Or anything else in their way.

we need state activism, yes (PA Walks and Bikes, and BAC and the like are doing well). We also need local activism, and there's only so much BPGH and individuals can do - peaceturkey, I'm in PH and try to raise the issue with my CDC and municipality any chance I get (and I admit to fabricating conversations just to remind them I and other cyclists exist), but if you want to coordinate something more organized and political, count me in support. I totally agree - my municipality has declared that there is no constituent will power to spend money on sidewalks, but every neighbor I talk to agrees that it would be so much nicer if there were sidewalks along the busy streets or between the schools and library. Sometimes all it takes is a concerted effort to get the municipalities and communities talking - people don't show up to municipal planning meetings anymore (even I can't fit it in to my schedule, and I'm quite passionate about it), so the municipalities take silence for apathy or acquiesence rather than just absence.

I don't believe that sharrows and road signs would have made one iota of difference to Drs Noll and Finder yesterday.

+1: @robjdlc and rsprake. If I remember from the visit to the DA a year ago, the DA only gets involved after the local police complete their investigation.

(Plus, did one of the stories mention a third rider? That would mean there was a witness - which was missing in the Flip-Flop Failure.)

@Stu - I think a more appropriate consequence would be having him visit the ICU every day and help take care of the victim(s).

The lack of compassion is the most distressing thing to me about these accidents. I think if someone could see the devastation they caused, it might somehow fix what is wrong in their psyche.

And seriously, nurses deserve five times whatever rate of pay they make for providing care during the worst times in people's lives.

@ejwme - Thanks for the vote of confidence. PM me your email address if you'd like. Maybe we can get some more people to be squeeky wheels with us and get some attention.

@lyle - I think we could all agree that we have to start somewhere. It can start with sharrows and turn into bike lanes! But I do agree... sharrows would not have helped the two cyclists who were the victims of yesterday's violence.

This is really sad and some comments on the WTAE article make me sick. There is no sense to be knocked into some of those people.

Three of us were riding that intersection from the opposite direction the evening before. I've ridden from the direction of the victims several times. It's always sketchy. Coming from the opposite direction we coasted in the right lane until it was 100% clear before getting into the left lane. There is plenty of room on that road to widen it for some kind of a bike lane at least up to Negley Run Blvd. We can only hope.

"I have never ridden in another city but I hear other cities are much more accepting of cyclist than Pittsburgh..."

Not really, at least not in Seattle where I lived for 5+ years... in fact, it was worse in some ways due to the fringe cyclists who went out of their way to make a scene and constantly received bad press (usually during critical mass rides). More people there may have rode per capita, but there were plenty of haters to go round.

It's sketchy because aggressive, speeding drivers operate with near-total impunity.

Let's start with some law enforcement. Fortunately, that IS something within the purview of local legislatures.

Keep in mind, this happened within spitting distance of the local state police station. Irony.

Wow, what a day... Some good momentum with the City regarding bike infrastructure, but overshadowed by yesterday's horrible news regarding this criminal driver. I ended up doing an interview with KDKA and the Trib. I know Fred K. from WPW wrote a spot on letter to the editor to the PG so we're not about to let this crash and need for better enforcement, laws, behavior, infrastructure, etc. slip by.

It's great to tune into this thread and see so much passion get channeled toward making things better. Please please please call your elected officials. That means call the county executive's office, the mayor's office and your city council person to tell them you care about bike issues and want to feel safe on our streets. That means calling your local state rep and local state senator to tell them the same and that they should support the safe passing and distracted driving bills, and finally it means calling our federal reps and senators too to tell them you care about these issues and that de-funding bicycle and pedestrian projects means more bike/ped crashes, injuries and fatalities.

All the contact info you need (or at least links to contact info) are found here:

http://bike-pgh.org/get_involved/advocate/governmentcontacts/

PA Walks & Bikes has more info on the safe passing and distracted driving bills on their site: http://www.pawalksandbikes.org/

As for the ride, I agree with Lyle, let's see how things go in the next week. Some new info might arise and it will show that we have at least a modicum of patience (albeit patience that is fast running out). The advantage to waiting is that 1. the driver could be found and 2. we can see what, if any, reaction the law enforcement has. If no one is found at least we can help keep this in the forefront and keep raising awareness.

Please provide any links to your interviews or articles. Will it be on TV or in print?

Trib is ink (tomorrow). KDKA was TV. Not sure if there's a link yet.

As for a ride to raise some awareness, I think it should be scheduled far ahead of time to ensure chance for press and a large turn out.

+1 for scheduling ahead

I would like to be able to go, but I would need ample time to rearrange my work schedule. Also, it would be great if the two victims (upon full recovery, of course) could be on the ride.

hmm... patience... ok, so according to a certain excessively patient husband, I have none. Normally I agree and see this as something to work on. But today I used it all up accepting the abysmal weather, and have none left for this issue.

Patience in this case just seems like an excuse to wait while more people get hurt and killed. It's like it's acceptable that these things take time - or never get dealt with at all (they haven't yet, otherwise all we'd have to talk about is how awesome riding on bridges is and how mad Stu's transit skills are). Patience feels like we're seeing the people that get hurt due to negligance or psychopathy in the mean time as just unavoidable, acceptable collateral damage to our ploddingly slow "system" (which, btw, "we" created, and thus "we" can change - it's not immutable).

When enough people are outraged and enough people lose all patience, swift and proportionate action is actually possible (I'm resisting the temptation to cite dramatic examples, but I'm sure everyone can think of a few). So while I think you're super fantastic Scott (and BPGH et al), I'm sorry, I will not be patient. I will not concede that those with authority and power are doing "everything they can" or that any actions thus far are "reasonable steps", or that maybe an "ethical" choice in this case might line up with a moral one for the DA where it previously didn't. Reasonable steps and truly ethical choices would be gross and intrusive movement towards safer streets - not tentative and "tolerable" or "re-electable" movement towards the superficial perception of safer streets.

I do not expect a bubble-wrapped world. I do not expect risk-free roads. I expect thorough enforcement of existing laws. I expect the DA, when death or maiming occur, to press the harshest charges possible by law, EVERY TIME. I expect the community at large to see people as more important than shaving a few seconds off their drive. I expect nobody to ever consider a law abiding, hurt road user as deserving their pain - or at least I expect bigoted people to be too ashamed to publically admit that they thought the cyclist "asked for it", even anonymously. I expect the community at large to be painfully and brutally intolerant of such behavior online or on the road.

I unfortunately also expect to be alone in my outrage and total loss of patience except when I post on here. I do not expect swift and thorough justice, and I do not expect to be heard when I email, write, and telephone any and all authorities I can find to explain to them in painful detail why they are woefully inadequate and incompetant when it comes to ridiculously simple, affordable (even revenue generating), and proven measures to decrease risk for all road users.

The lack of political will power to use the information we ALREADY HAVE is physically harming cyclists - why should we be patient?

I was just asking to be a bit patient while the police try to catch the perpetrator (there's more or less an all points bulletin calling on witnesses to step up and for the motorist to turn him/herself in), but do what you feel you need to do. We'll be supportive as long as it's nonviolent.

Hi all, I'm a long time lurker here and I - like everyone - was shocked at this recent hit and run. I have a suggestion that I'd like to throw out there which may help prevent some future incidents...apologies if something like this has already been tried.

There should be a campaign that involves corporate and government sponsored subsidies to provide small wearable cameras to cyclists (blue-tooth enabled ones that connect to Droid or IPhones go for ~$130 on Amazon). Combine that with with some sort high visibility sticker/logo. Psychologically the sticker will have the same effect on a criminal driver as a "protected by xyz security " sign has on a potential thief. Moreover, if anything does happen, video evidence can help identify hit-and-run drivers. I would bet that if 10% of avid cyclists took part in something like this, tragedies such as this one would be greatly reduced.

And by the way, I hope you're not my misinterpreting my use of the word "patience" as "do nothing." There's plenty people can do. Protesting in the streets is only one of them. One that we support, but I think we need some time to pull something like that together. But if you think that something needs to be done tomorrow, then please organize it and we'll help get the word out.

Ugh there was a short interview with the doctor who was released from the hospital and he has road rash all over his face. Poor dude. I am down for a ride but I do have to be at work early, so if i can make it, I will be there.

Ejwme: patience means don't harangue the police and the DA until they've been given plenty of opportunity to do nothing.

Demonstrating at the scene, against the reckless and unidentified driver? Sure, and I have a few ideas about how that could go.

The only concern I have, is that _maybe_ that would dilute the enthusiasm of the community-at-large for the other demonstration. What do you think?

I'm not so sure that one demonstration would dilute the other. In fact, it could strengthen the subsequent demonstration. The first demonstration should happen during the evening rush hour sometime. Traffic will be backed up and there will be plenty of opportunity to reach motorists with our message.

Well, I was thinking it might be worth having a handful of cyclists standing at the intersection with bikes and maybe a sign, every morning from 7:50-8:15. We could take turns.

The more I think about it, the more I convince myself that the driver was likely on his/her way to work -- holiday aside. That's too early to be going to a party, but it's exactly the right time to be going to a retail or restaurant job.

A sign and maybe a camera, snapping photos of all the gold sedans that pass, especially scratches and license plates?

I know "patience" doens't mean do nothing, especially from you guys. I'm just so tired of hearing it from everybody else (read: non-cyclists), for whom that is the absolute extent of their caring and involvement, telling the uppity and irritating little cyclist (me) to be patient while everybody else does nothing.

Lyle, I like your idea and I'm tempted to dress in white/covered in flour or white paint, stand on the corner with my bike and hold a giant sign saying something pithy and to the point - but what would the sign say?

Wake up

Distraction Kills

Stop Hitting Us

Slow Down

Respect All Travelers

Less Rage

We Are Legal

We Are People

...

What if, instead of a ride or someone standing with a sign in one part of town at one time, or even several on seperate days, we get as many people as we can to dress in all white (painted white too), and stand with their bikes on busy street corners and giant signs? Sprinkled throughout the city, maybe crossing the road with lights every once in a while to make sure people can see? Ghosts with messages, spread throughout the city (maybe especially where there have been accidents), silent and visible in rush hour while people are sitting and staring. They might as well stare at us.

Like a ghost bike/rider/protest blitz of the entire city. Not a ride, which is what we usually do, but standing as living monuments with messages, if only for an hour or two. (Also, that might be easier for some who couldn't do a ride but could stand in solo protest near their house or along their commute).

?

A district attorney can't do anything until they have someone to actually prosecute. That's what I was referring to when I said be patient.

Standing on a busy street corner with signs telling people to not be distracted seems like a contradiction to me. I don't have a better idea however.

Ok... here come my two-cents.

@ejwme --I identify with your sentiment regarding patience in this issue, and I don't think that showing solidarity in a bike-ride is --ever-- a violent demonstration (unless is CM, that is). I can understand why BikePG as a non-profit & advocacy group would try to steer clear from anything-violent like that, but I don't think anyone in here has --ever-- though of a bike-ride or a cycling-demonstration as a violent event --ever-- (and why bring something like that up?).

I know that "incidents" like this help the Cycling Community to demand to the City & Elected-Officials better laws protecting us on-the-road by giving a "face" and a "voice" to the tragedies that are caused when cycling & irresponsible drivers-goes-wrong on the road. But personally, this event is less about pushing a cycling agenda, and MORE about showing our support for the injured cyclists and their families --period......... That is why I kept bringing the idea of doing a ride in-solidarity for the injured cycists, and to express our sadness & discust at the incident, and to ultimately remind drivers that they should be careful in the road.

Gotta say, while I don't lose my hope that one day cyclists & cars will be sharing the roads together in a symbiotic relationship, and that those drivers who injure cyclists because of carelessness or on-purpose, will be punished by-law as the offense it really is; after Don Parker, and Doctor Vacarallo, I know that even if the person is found-out and brought to justice, not much will really happen with that for a long-long time.

So.... at this point, regardless of this being an opportunity to push agendas -I don't care. Two people were injured and I don't think they care about agendas either.

So.... when are we riding? Friday would indeed perhaps be too soon to organize, but monday.... next monday would be good as a week-anniversary to the event. I like Lyle's route for the ride too.

Thoughts?

The sign would say either

PATIENCE

or

ATTENTION

and maybe if we kept doing this, eventually

TEXTING (in a circle/slash)

something diffuse all over the city sounds artistic, but wouldn't that require more explanation as to what it's about? Something focussed at one location would be more immediately obvious, imho.

@bikeygirl: I am prepared to ride every Monday morning all summer.

Signage like that actually exists on Utah roads and highways. Apparently there is quite the campaign against distracted driving.

By distracting drivers with signs. Brilliant!

I never brought up violence, bikeygirl, I'm not advocating violence, never did, never will.

And I'm not against a ride for solidarity, I think that's fantastic. But if we're going to wait until the victims can join in the ride, we'll be waiting a while. So why do nothing while waiting?

What I'm sick of is the need for solidarity rides. This isn't new, cyclists and pedestrians have been mowed down since it was cyclists and horses doing the mowing, so while my outrage may be new, the issue is much older than even the oldest member on this board.

While advocacy won't help Mr. Noll and Dr. Finders NOW, loss of patience and more meaningful change in the PAST could have helped them avoid this whole situation. If our capable PD had stopped the vehicle in question (an all others) more often for past violations (involving cyclists or not), perhaps that driver would have reassessed his/her behavior earlier. Or if cops regularly sat at that intersection (and others) and picked off jagoffs, people might all have a little more respect and patience there. If PennDOT had revised its policies and procedures to include more traffic calming efforts and implemented them at that intersection (and everywhere else), perhaps even a psychopathic driver would not have had the opportunity to do such harm. All of this clearly would have required more aggressive agenda pushing in the past, otherwise it would all have been done and this conversation wouldn't take place.

But bikeygirl, I have to thank you most for truly defining my rage quite nicely - you said "...is why I kept bringing the idea of doing a ride in-solidarity for the injured cycists, and to express our sadness & discust at the incident, and to ultimately remind drivers that they should be careful in the road." but at the same time say you don't care about pushing an agenda.

That's the entire problem. Expressing our sadness, disgust, solidarity with the injured, and reminding drivers to be careful *IS* an agenda. The fact that it is an "agenda" is the most maddening thing of all. One would hope it wouldn't be. One would hope it would be such a universal thing that everybody everywhere would share in those feelings, like a personal preference for breathing often and sleeping daily. But they don't. Proof - the DA's behavior, PennDOT's actions, municipal, county, and state inaction.

Simply giving a shit about human beings getting clobbered by traffic too distracted or "busy" to respect anybody but themselves IS an agenda, and it's actively campaigned AGAINST by politicians and irate drivers. THAT is what has me so pissed off.

Mr. Noll and Dr. Finders, and the same old (compassionate, encouraging, positive) response to the tragedy just happened to set me off. And I'm having difficulty finding a reason to calm down about it. But I'll stop venting about it, since it appears inappropriate - apologies all around.

@ejwme: No apology necessary. Rage is a perfectly rational response.

@Lucia - just saying we will support ANY action anyone comes up with as long as it's nonviolent. I didn't accuse anyone of coming up with a violent protest just setting the probably-goes-without-saying ground rules for BikePGH support. No harm intended by that comment.

Ugh, just got back from out of town. This is terrible news. Wishing the best for the injured cyclists.

If you think the comments at wtae are hateful, you haven't seen the comments at kdka about the open hydrant in Homewood that caused a landslide.

@scott Trib is ink (tomorrow). KDKA was TV. Not sure if there's a link yet.

Trib:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_739815.html

I just dislike the situation -period. I had such a great weekend of bike-riding at the GAP sat & sun, to read the news the next day about this Hit & Run really sat sour on me.

@ejwme: You are right, to express our concern publicly, or having to do it due to these kind of accidents, is indeed an agenda -an unfortunate one at it.

@scott:I hear you, and I think everyone knows well-enough already that not only is BikePgh's position, but I think most of those people who post regularly in here, to try to enact change and concern in a non-violently way only.

The only point I tried to make with my post was to show support for the injured cyclists and their families -that is all.

That is all.

My letter to the editor in the P-G about this ran today (second one down).

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11152/1150431-110-0.stm

Do you think the city might be open to some public service announcements or other free advertising that would educate drivers that cyclists have a right to be on the road?

Thanks Sarah, great letter!

Then immediately after your letter (sarah q) they put a letter from Wayne Goodworth of Ross citing irrelevant bullshit about some cyclists not observing the law and police ought to enforce the law. Really. Makes me feel like looking up this dickhead and slapping the shit out of him. Asshole.

After reading the very good Trib article about the two guys involved, outstanding people, children's doctor's, I am beyond pissed at an idiot comment like that.

I read this letter:

Enforce equally

I read with great interest how Pittsburgh wants to be bicycle friendly. How horrible when a cyclist is involved in an accident. But I see constant moving violations by these "share the road" riders: ignoring "no turn on red" signs, never stopping at red lights, not riding with traffic but beside the lane and parked cars, not using turn signals -- yes, there are hand signals.

The police need to enforce the same laws that apply to vehicles and bicycle traffic, then the road can be safely shared by all.

WAYNE GOODWORTH

Ross

...

And responded with this letter that I doubt will be printed:

...

Re: Enforce equally

I read with great interest how Pittsburgh wants to be bicycle friendly. How horrible when a cyclist is involved in an accident. But I see constant moving violations by "share the road" drivers: ignoring "no turn on red" signs, blowing red lights at high speed, not driving with traffic but in the bike and parking lanes, not using turn signals -- yes, there are turn signals on each and every car that passes inspection.

The police need to enforce the laws that apply to the 2 ton vehicles that actually kill and maim people, then the road can be safely shared by all.

Reminds me of the letter I sent in 2009.

It's so ridiculous. The riders injured were obeying the law and doing everything they are supposed to do and yet people still zero in on the riders they perceive to be riding recklessly. Obeying the law did not help.

+

Enforce equally relative to the amount of damage and death each is likely to inflict.

People who write letters to the editor should be prepared for response letters.

My letter:

I don't understand it, but every time someone riding a bike is injured or killed by a person operating a car, someone mentions that there are other people on bikes somewhere else who aren't obeying the law. What does it have to do with the issue? The men who were injured this past weekend were obeying the law. Don Parker who was killed last year was following the law. Dr. Albert Varacallo who was killed last year was following the law.

I am all for equal enforcement, but lets get the bigger issue under control first. Let's look at the thousands of people being killed and maimed every year by negligent operators of automobiles. Once law enforcement comes down on all of those law breakers, it would be great for them to pull over the people on bikes who are also breaking the law.

The day when people on bikes rolling through stop signs start killing thousands of innocent law-abiding road users is the day is the day when police should start focusing more on bicycles breaking the law than reckless people driving cars.

I made sure to include my automotive business in my signature along with Flock.

nice letter

Right on, Nick.

Nice.

Oh is that where he lives? Then one of the cyclists this Wayne guy will see *all* the time is yours truly. I go right past his place four, six times a week, 4x in the last 48 hours alone, on two wheels. Whatever cyclists he witnesses doing all the things he says, some of those will have to be me.

Wonderful letters. I wasted quite a few pixels on the WTAE discussion with no discernible effect on anything but my blood pressure.

I hope both riders have a speedy recovery. This hits too close to home . . . again.

I didn't think the Wayne letter was too far off the mark. There are cyclists (and drivers) who do really dumb shit on the regular. However, his examples are all things that *should* be legal for cyclists. I am tired of my slowly rolling through a 4-way stop being lumped into the same scofflaw category as the jackass who rides right up the double yellow line in traffic.

There are states that have laws where stop signs are yield signs and red lights are stop signs for cyclists. Perhaps it would improve driver/cyclist relations if we could get the same type of provisions for cyclists in PA?

there is one state: Idaho. Oregon advocates tried to make a big push a few years back to make the "Idaho stop" legal, but they failed.

changing motor vehicle code takes an unusually long time, and PA seems to take even longer for some reason. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try, as we're currently pushing for "safe passing" and distracted driving laws that currently have bills going thru the motions....for years.

First step is finding a state rep or senator that is willing to take on this cause and write a bill.

I don't know if I would want to be alienated any more than the spandex I wear on long rides already does. If I am given any special privilege, I don't see that winning any hearts and minds.

I only roll through stop signs when there are no cars around at all. I am going on about 18 months of hassle free riding now since I started "obeying" all the rules.

Edit - I'm sure these two gentlemen had their own streak going. I don't want my post to seem like I am inferring that that they were in any way breaking the law.

No, the Wayne letter was horseshit, and I refuse to accept any validity to that argument in the most minute aspect. It is irrelevant to the Washington Blvd incident, and irrelevant in general. Cylists breaking laws don't kill people, at worst they hurt themselves and inconvenience motorists. I don't give a rat's A about inconveniencing or irritating motorists.

That's a great letter Nick.

Nice letter Nick.

@edmonds59 "I don't give a rat's A about inconveniencing or irritating motorists."

Right on! What needs to change is driver behavior. I've had as many issues with a-holes on the road while driving my car as I have riding my bicycle... take bicycles out of the equation altogether and the problem still exists, so it's irrelevant to try changing things on the bicycle end. Being better bicyclists may help win a few supporters (no likely) but it isn't going to change bad driving.

The best answer is more bike paths and better alternatives to avoid dangerous but necessary routes.

The best answer is fewer a-holes.

+1 for a ghost bike or two at the site.

I do suppose I should qualify that somewhat, I don't give a rat's A about inconveniencing or irritating [impatient, selfish, ahole] motorists. In fact, I relish that. But I fully recognize that the majority of people may be perfectly reasonable and just want to get through the day without being f'd with. As do we all.

If this is the same SUV I have encountered, or a similar driver, the driver is a psychopath. These men were attacked. It should be treated as attempted homicide. No laws will change the behavior of murderous nutcases. Sadly.

The Wayne letter was not relevant to this accident. But it is relevant to the conversation about educating drivers. A cyclist slowly rolling through an empty intersection with a four-way stop is a lot different than a car blowing a stop sign. It would be nice if drivers understood this concept and stopped getting pissed every time a cyclist makes a safe but not technically legal move. Pissed drivers are scary drivers. And I agree with Lyle, it would be best if there were fewer assholes all around.

I've seen two news reports saying it was a gold sedan, not an SUV. Makes it hard for people to provide tips if they don't know which kind of vehicle it was Maybe it was one of those crossover mini-suvs.

Great letter Nick.

Ghost bikes are for fatalities only.

And putting up signage was previously discussed as distracting.

no, ghost bikes are for either: http://ghostbikes.org

Ghost Bikes are small and somber memorials for bicyclists who are killed or HIT on the street.

Ghost Bikes started out as reminders about people who were hit or killed, but as time has gone on have more or less become reserved for those struck and killed.

eh, i still think they are appropriate for serious accidents like this.

Not to mention, that island is a perfect spot. It is a heavily traveled intersection and there is a signal pole for securing it.

Ok so I mentioned it.

So... after thinking about this issue yesterday & talking about it with some cyclists, I really think/want to do a "week-anniversary" ride monday morning in support of the injured cyclysts & their families.

l think that Lyle's route is still good, but maybe ending at the DA's office is not neccesary at this time since no one has been aprehended. Although, I don't know where else we could end (maybe at Market Square?). Meet at 7:15am, ride at 7:30am, so is not too late for people getting to work in the morning.

I have a friend who is a neighboor of one of the cyclists involved in the accident, and through this person we want to give a "Get Well" card delivered to Dr. Noll and Dr. Finder. This card would be signed by whoever wants to/shows up at for the ride.

Thoughts?

I know this is all simple & all, but after signing letters to my representatives through the League of American Cyclists, and being willing to support any-other campaign for safer roads & all bt the BikePgh and the board, I still want to do this more....

ps:

If enough people think this is kosher, I'll go ahead and do a Facebook-Event of it to invite more people. Regardless, I'm riding monday and getting the get-well card.

Bikeygirl - I like it, and I'm in.

There's two issues - the broader one which has me (I'm afraid) rude with rage, and the narrower one, where two specific people are hurting and would hopefully garner strength from a visible sign of support like this.

So while I fume and thrash over the broader cause, I will also channel all my inner warm fuzzies to support the narrower cause. Thank you for keeping such a healthy perspective and encouraging one in me too

What about incorporating the Zone 5 station?

I see it one of two ways:

either it ends there after a nice loop to show the support of the community in finding the suspect and letting them know how many people are actually counting on them

or, if it begins there and they see how many people are actually counting on them, they may be inclined to provide an escort for the ride.

The latter of which I realize may be a pipe dream; but if we rule them out as being an ally, we might as well not bother with any of it.

The route ending downtown is for media-friendliness (they like standups on the steps) and to point out that we are a highly-motivated (if small) political force. Grant St is the symbolic seat of local power. It's a good idea to keep the route consistent if we ride again.

This route does go by the zone 5 station, intentionally. As for the rest of it... we should discuss that offline.

Monday morning, 7:15, I'll be there.

I think media would come out to Washington Boulevard. That gravel parking area might make a nice end-point, as well as provide the opportunity to film in front of the site of the incident.

While I am completely supportive of a media ride, I think this incident has opened the door into another traffic stream and provided an opportunity for a more aggressive advocacy.

Yesterday I had two "run-ins" with motorists. Both executed similar maneuvers as the vehicle which hit the Docs. I confronted each driver and though belligerent and wrong about the rules of the road, both were cowed and physically non-confrontational. Both knew of the incident at Washington Blvd. and I suspect that tempered their inclination to escalate. Both drove away quickly, though that may be me; I suspect when someone sees I post they'd like to drive away quickly too.

Point is, for a moment, drivers are not not listening. It's an opportunity to drive home a small message. I was at a loss yesterday which message to impart. One guy shouted at me that I must "Share The Road" and that I should be three foot over to the right side of the lane. Followed him for a few miles and spoke with him through the passenger's side window at the lights and stop signs. I can be a pest. Reciting his license number to him did maintain his attention. This, however, is not an effective form of activism, nor does it take advantage of the sentiment of the moment.

Spoke with many drivers over the last few days and not one had an accurate understanding of the meaning of "share the road". Okay, I don't really either. It's not an easily comprehensible catch phrase, and not actually legally accurate. (As noted before, some drivers think this means bikes have to accommodate and accede to cars.)

So, as I agree signs are likely not only non-productive but counterproductive, only one option remains: tee shirts. If a car is stuck behind me as I take the lane and there is something to read on my back, they are likely to pause for moment to read it before narrowly careening past me only to stop at the next red light on North. I want to give them something pithy to peruse.

Looking for two shirts, both with basically the Swalfoort/Orlando suggestion, though one with an Amish horse and buggy in place of the bike, just to get folk thinking. (Quieted one guy yesterday when I asked him if he'd disrespect an Amish buggy driver in the same manner.) Underneath the relevant PA code should be cited: "PA Consolidated Statutes, Title 75, Chapter 35, A, 3501, (a)"

(Edit: Though maybe replace the "passing" bit with the Statute reference?)

I would keep the change lanes to pass bit. Nobody is going to lookup a statue so it is just useless noise. At least passing bit conveys a useful message and tells drivers what they should be doing.

I take exception to the notion that citing the Law is useless noise. It makes it more then an opinion or slogan; adds weight. I'm adamant about including the cite, no matter how small. (Originally I thought after the small print cite it could read "Now back the f*ck off, if you're reading this you are too close, and scaring the sh*t out of me. Remember the Castle Doctrine.")

However, I'm straddling the top tube on the passing bit, and inclined to agree with you.

Also contemplating "Bikes May Use Full Lane" so when I ride the curb, they realize I'm relinquishing my rights for their convenience.

Yea, include the law at the bottom if you aren't replacing anything else, but I don't really expect anyone to care. People take stop signs be suggestions at best, would having a citation change anything?

I agree with the inclusion of "may", I thought the signs already said "may"?

"...would having a citation change anything?"

Maybe, and that's justification enough for the effort. I've spoken with more then a few officers recently, and when I cite chapter and verse for "reflector and light requirements" for example, they take me at my word, rather then regard it as noise. Two wrote it down and next time I saw them they told me they'd looked it up and I was correct. They had not known the law. One did the same day before yesterday regarding "full lane".

Adding the cite can do no harm?

It can't do any harm, no I was just suggesting it is not as useful as "move the F over to pass me".

Knee jerk reaction to "move the F over to pass me" is "Why the F should I have to?" which begs the legal question. It's contentious, and confrontational, and doesn't inform. People don't like being told what to do, do they? We've a narrow window in which to slip a little information into the sheep's temporarily susceptible minds. What message does "move the F over to pass me" impart?

I don't suggest you actually put that on the shirt, but instead put the sign you posted above. Sorry, in a snarky mood.

No worries, mate. Especially in these times that try patience and soul, no one's immune to the "snark".

I like those signs, good luck with your t-shirt fungicyclist. I hope your back is visible when you're riding. I'm often disappointed to see people riding with their blinkies clipped to a bag on their back and it's pointing upward. Similarly on the Don Parker ride a lot of people put signs on the backs of their jerseys that were not readable due to pointing more up than back.

Thanks, Tabby. I'd considered the logistical difficulties in "back reading" and decided on an extra long garment. Writing "I'm putting it on my butt" just didn't sound right...

lol. yeah the extra long should help.

I got a call from the Post-Gazette. They said they will be running my letter.

Flock is working on a little project that will tie into a lot of the ideas on this thread. I'll post something when the details are all figured out.

@Nick D I got a call from the Post-Gazette. They said they will be running my letter.

That is great news. That letter says things we've all wanted to says to the "But-bike-riders-blow-stop-signs" rants.

It is so sensible that it might get through to some people.

Jim Logan's letter ran today (Sat) in the P-G

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11155/1151270-110-0.stm

And the beat goes on (unfortunately)... http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11155/1151482-100.stm

what kind of sick f*** runs over an 8 year old kid and doesn't bother to stop?

More letters to the ed today in Sunday's P-G

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11156/1151174-110-0.stm

Hope everyone had a good weekend!

I'll be down at the Parking Lot by the Oval at 7:15am, riding at 7:30am. I'm planning on wearing a white-Tshirt as a peaceful offering.

Route: to keep it simple, I just plan on following Lyle's route, which he posted earlier on this thread. Ending at Grant St. As I had said before, I don't have a political-agenda to involve the DA on this peaceful ride, but if people do & want to deliver their own Letters to the DA in regards to the cyclists, you can deliver them in-person at this time.

If anyone has other thoughts/ideas, please bring them up.

I'll bring the Get-Well card for whoever wants to sign it.

Hope to see some of you there!

Another letter to the ed today.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11157/1151623-110.stm

In the print version this is highlighted in a box with a graphic.

Hope the ride this a.m. went well.

I missed the AM ride (need some repairs after weekend shenanigans) - how did it go?

Every one who turned out finished the ride downtown, no mechanicals, no injuries. But half of the riders wanted to stop in the Strip and find the bacon.

Bacon...mm... that bacon DID smell good @the Strip!

The ride went well -but technically it should be labeled a "Test-Ride". Only Lyle and me rode, which was fine. The weather was great, and except for one silly-driver honking neddlessly when we turned onto Friendship from Penn Circle, it was great.

I will be stopping this afternoon to deliver the card to the Doctor's friend house.

@Lyle -thank you for coming! The route was fine, and I do-see the point of starting next-time by the Zoo to actually go-by the accident-area in the process.

I know it was such a small thing, but personally I really felt it was important to do (for me).

Nick in the Post-Gazette today, along with a Karl Aufman that makes no point.

Classic stuff here. Not only did they leave out Nick's full signature which includes his car business they print the same old boring nonsense in Karl's letter.

Those who ride bicycles should be given a citation from police just as they would if they were in a motor vehicle and chose to ignore a traffic law. Then and only then will the playing field be level, and maybe motorists would become more tolerant of bicycles on the road.

The police can and should write citations, but it's not like drivers are being pulled over right and left out there. That said, I had a police car behind me on Thomas Blvd and I coasted through a stop sign, but so did the driver in front of me.

I'm pretty sure that the rate at which cyclists' violations are ticketed in Pittsburgh is practically identical to the rate of citations for motorists' violations. I'd bet money on it.

To be more clear, they're both so close to zero as makes no difference. To be even more clear, rate means # of tickets / # of violations.

The frustrating part is, cars are breaking the law practically 100% of the time - they are *all* speeding. And, the speed at which they "roll" stop signs is the same speed at which bikes "blow" them. Yet crap like Hot Karl's letter is exactly how most drivers think. It's ridiculous.

Actually, the frustrating part is that it's been over a week with absolutely no news about this... I'm not feeling optimistic that they'll catch the person who did it. Any word on how the cyclists are recovering?

I have no information on anything, unfortunately. I do find my self taking a second and even a third look at every gold vehicle I see. Even tan and bronze vehicles are catching my eye. I wish we had a better description of the vehicle.

@salty and others.

Dr. Finder is doing very well. Got the stitches out and the road rash on his face is clearing nicely. He was out riding again this weekend after remarking that when the horse throws you off, you get back on.

Dr. Noll was much more seriously injured, of course, and had an extensive 2 day surgery to repair his pelvis. The good news is that the surgeon wasn't horribly optimistic when he started the operation but was really pleased with how well it went and how strong Bob is (keep riding folks, it's good for you!). I'm sure it will be a long road with bumps in it but he's out of the ICU, and may soon be moving on to a rehab facility. I spoke with him on the phone yesterday afternoon and he sounded great (all things considered). He's a very upbeat guy and he too is looking forward to the day he can be out riding again. It'll be a while but if anyone can make it happen he will.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. It's sad that we aren't hearing the justice ending to the story (yet), but it's nice to hear the healing has already begun. Let them know we're all rooting for full and speedy recoveries for both?

I wrote comments to the authors of the articles and the pg editors. I think maybe if enough of us write in the letters that should get published, eventually they'll stop editing out the important parts.

Thanks for the update Jeff, certainly add my voice to what ejwme said.

Salty, the term "Hot Karl" made me laugh.

I got super steamed when he said only equal law enforcement will level the field. Are you kidding me? There's only about 3 magnitudes of difference in momentum between a moving car and a moving bike. That's the tilt in the field, not registration or whatever crap he was talking.

Jeebus, there's a reason why states have enacted registration, plating, and other requirements of auto operators and not bicycle operators and it's commensurate with the amount of damage they can inflict.

Using Hot Karl's argument we should require background checks and 7 day waiting periods for water pistols just like we do for handguns. Sheesh.

marv, I really really really like your handgun to water pistol comparison.

Except there is no waiting period for handguns in PA

dmtroyer - I thought you were suggesting a waiting period before buying a car or driving it. (and thought it was funny - I do that automatically)

And never underestimate the damage a water gun can do: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/09/new-way-to-stop-roadside-bombs-super-soak-em/

I used the squirt gun analogy in an interview today. Thanks for giving me some new and interesting things to say

I had a scary moment on Washington Blvd. today on the way home. Coming up the hill a car came up behind me so quickly that it locked up the brakes. Then two more cars behind it did the same.

I'm really torn between continuing to ride there to make cycling visible and assert my rights (and it's faster) vs. putting my life in jeopardy.

Given the high speeds, poor sightlines, and non-existent law enforcement, I do not ride that part of Washington Blvd inbound. If I feel like asserting my rights, I'll go there and drive a car at the speed limit.

what that guy posted should be on a damn billboard.

@thatguy, please don't be a martyr. If you don't feel safe, don't do it. The city of pittsburgh has said they are interested in putting an off-street bike connection along Washington Blvd from Negley Run to at least the oval. Help us put pressure on them to do this. There's also a lot of potential to get a more bike-friendly design for Negley Run. This would drastically improve the connection through this area.

I do use Negley Run inbound instead of that segment of Washington Blvd. Bikeygirl and I rode it Monday morning, pretty slowly, with no problems. Sightlines are good and speeds seem (paradoxically) slower than the curve at Washington Blvd.

Is there anything we can do to encourage the police to maybe do a special series of speed enforcement times out there? There have been too many accidents and close calls out there.

Especially since it appears that there aren't leads on the perpatrator in this hit and run, I'd like to see some action being taken to keep WA Blvd traffic from being consistently a very dangerous road.

Scott, I adore you and your work but...

The city is interested in a lot of things. I'm more focused on what the city is actively doing. And I don't see a path, or a schedule for a path, or equipment for a path, or anything. Just some really fantastic pictures, a great mixed use document put out a while ago (appreciative nod to those guys/gals too), and a label of "long term" assigned to it... I think 10 years or 20 years or something else?

Tabby, I like your logic. If we can't catch the vehicle that hit the docs, why can't they stop the vehicles on the same path to destruction, so to speak? Makes sense to me. Park some black and whites with lights going at the side of the road - don't even stop cars, just scare them into obedience. Lord knows nothing else will.

back home the county would put empty sheriff cars in their usual speed traps along the parkway (ACTUAL wpa parkway, not crazy 8 lane highways with the wrong name) or in other areas where people would speed. it worked great because they weren't always empty and harmless so people didnt chance it and slowed down when they saw them. it was a great way to stretch resources and control speeding.

I've lived within spitting distance of Washington Blvd most of my life. Enforcement sweeps (much like Colin mentions) have happened in the past. I seem to recall in the early 90s there was a huge push, with police almost always stationed in the pull-off that leads to the police academy shooting range.

I suspect a big problem in getting the city to restart such initiatives is the lack of a "community"--that is, it's easy for, say, the Morningside Community Council to raise a stink about speeding in the neighborhood. There's not a neighborhood along Washington Blvd.

I wonder if it's worth reaching out to Chris P. at the ACA, since there are many, many ACA members (and racers) that use that road several times a week to ride the crits at the Oval. That group has a vested interest in the safety of that road.

maybe reach out to the businesses along the curve too. after the incident at the tree forge i bet many would be willing to add their voices to the demand, even if they won't/can't tackle the issue alone.

Scaring people into following the rules and educating people to be better humans appear to be mutually exclusive to me. I realize the latter isn't happening (and probably won't happen anytime soon), but that doesn't mean one should lower the bar.

I'm a firm believer in evolution.

Scaring people into following the rules and educating people to be better humans appear to be mutually exclusive to me.

Are you saying enforcement == scaring people into following the rules? If so, why have laws if we don't enforce them?

The goal on this board is to promote safety for cyclists. If that means demanding speed traps then I think that builds resentment from motorists. Even my 5-year-old complies more when he thinks it is his idea (And I would argue that there isn't a whole lot of difference between a 5-year-old psyche and the average commuting driver's).

In my opinion, time is better spent in public forums educating people on why there is a speed limit on that road even though it appears you can go 80 mph.

Stupid question. Does the Pittsburgh PD EVER write speeding tickets? With no radar it seems like it would take a lot of extra effort and is more prone to dismissal in court?

Sure, I would agree that motorists would feel resentful towards cyclists that were demanding a speed trap. But does it really have to be that way? I mean, a guy got killed INSIDE his own business last year, this year a couple people got put in the hospital. Can't the community, businesses and yes, the cyclists too come forward to ask that the road speeds be enforced?? Couldn't the city and the police just state that because of the large number of accidents (let me look that data up) that they want to promote enforcement on this stretch. I don't see why that all has to just be pinned on cyclists.

dmtroyer - I vaguely remember in the early 90s hearing that to cut costs, the PD would no longer pay for police to defend moving violations in court. So all someone has to do is fight the ticket, cop doesn't show up, it's thrown out. thus no more tickets. I've mentioned this before here, and don't remember if anybody remembers better than I do. But it's not just absence of radar.

Morningsider, I agree, we should educate people and whatnot. But I'm not just a cyclist pushing for enforcement of laws. I'm also a daughter, a sister, a wife, an employee, a volunteer, a pet owner, a home owner, a tax payer, a local food advocate, a car driver, and many other labels one could affix to me.

All of those labels want safer roads. I can't think of anybody who doesn't want safer roads. Why do we have to be a bunch of cyclists pushing for speed traps? Why can't we just be a bunch of PEOPLE who want speed traps? The whys apply to everyone - safety and lower stress for all travelers.

Cycling doesn't have to come in to it (though it is the reason we're all here chatting).

I can think of one person that isn't concerned about safer roads. I don't know his/her name but I'm pretty sure he/she is driving a gold car.

An OT example to express what I was trying to say:

The "law" states that a not-for-profit business has limited tax liability. This seems pretty fair for someone trying to do a good thing for the community. Let's ease their burden. However, not-for-profit doesn't mean they don't make profits. It also doesn't mean they accept a meager personal income to make the business work. In the case of some, they make millions (personally). In extreme cases, they exploit the not-for-profit status so that they can grow even bigger to a point where it is detrimental to the rest of the business community.

Selfishness and greed are the reasons these things happen.

Maybe I'm wrong and all we need are a couple of speeding tickets to fix it.

"I'm a firm believer in evolution."

Hm. Ok, so are you proposing that operating a motor vehicle in a careless and reckless manner is genetic? And if enough of those people with that gene manage to die in automobile crashes, the problem will go away?

*Edit: Not trying to be a smart-ass. Just trying to understand.

From Dictionary.com:

–noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.

The term "legal kill" used to be argued in the streets out west right after a gun fight. I don't know the percentage, but some cases ended right there. It's not quite that way anymore.

I still believe people can improve.

It's not that way anymore because the state developed effective law enforcement and stamped out the "free-market enforcement."

Things could easily revert

does every thread have to eventually result in someone typing a definition from the dictionary?

Morningsider I'm a firm believer in evolution.

The smallest measurable unit of evolution is considered to be 100 generations. We could start seeing the beginning of effects of the car in about 1900 years.

One way or another, speeding laws are not enforced because that is not a priority for most voters.

A little OT but

http://www.starkvilledailynews.com/node/5919

This seems like the kind of event that could revive private action (

That is f'n ridiculous. Some days it's not easy to be against the death penalty.

That's absolutely horrible.

A similar thing happened to a friend of mine in Portland this Tuesday. Training ride outside Portland, pickup truck drove up his back at 30 mph. Thrown onto hood. T10 and T7 spinal fractures. 3 months in a back brace. He's very lucky to be in such good shape all things considered. In his case, the driver stopped, and car back was an off duty fireman, so he had immediate assistance. Driver is facing possible felony charges.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with people. And the law.

@Mick - Evidently, it's bush league to post definitions so I'll just reference the one I posted above before I was notified.

Commercial airlines started in the early 1900s. The development of aviation did not begin 1900 years before that.

You can let the law control humanity if you choose, I just feel it should be the other way around.

Mississippi Highway Patrol spokesman said Brian Mobley no charges have been filed against Norton, though Mobley declined to comment further about the accident.

I sure hope this is because they're trying to decide how many felonies to charge this driver with.

It's crazy that this person isn't sitting in jail. I understand that accidents happen, but to get out and look at the person on the ground then run them over? WTF!?

@morningsider: Sounds like you're trying to have it both ways. It is commonly understood that when one mentions "evolution," that they are referring to the biological definition (change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift).

Otherwise, generic "evolution" is not something you often hear people affirming belief in.

Regardless, between your "evolution" comment and this non-sequitur about "legal kill," I'm just having a hard time understanding your position.

And finally, "You can let the law control humanity if you choose, I just feel it should be the other way around." That is a real gem. Sounds great, but what does it mean? If you are talking about the laws of nature, good luck controlling that.

Rather I'll guess you mean the rules societies establish to maintain order and protect citizens. Well, in that case, those laws are not handed down from god on stone tablets. Those laws are written by men and women (human men and women, I should clarify), and enforced by men and women.

So, unless I'm mistaken about your intent, and forgive me if that's the case, "laws" are both written and enforced by humanity. I'm not sure what greater "control" humanity could exert on the process.

I think we would all agree laws could be enforced more stringently.

@morningsider: Evolution works because some change helps an organism be better adapted to its environment; for example, better able to withstand harm.

Look on increased fines/enforcement as the environmental selection mechanism that encourages adaptation, and it makes more sense.

If motorists suffer less harm (or derive more benefit) by being more conscious of other road users, there is incentive for evolutionary change. Without such detriment or benefit, why would change occur?

RE: the Starkville accident. That's attempted murder, I believe. By choosing to run her over again after stopping and getting out, it became premeditated: no possibility of "mere" vehicular homicide.

@Morningsider

For all we know, maybe that gold SUV? driver does want safer roads. The person might just not have been checking her mirrors, changed lanes improperly and didn't even know she hit the guy. People often want things they're not actively contributing to.

@others

The reason why MADD worked was because they had a bunch of little white pretty children get killed by drunk drivers and the parents had the timeresources to do a crap load of advocacy distributing all those photos of the poor children killed by drunk drivers.

There isn't the "Awww, that's such a shame" factor with middle aged guys and deliverymen.

Sigh. Pierce, you're trying to steal my job, aren't you?

But Pierce, middle aged guys could have pretty little children who become orphaned as a result of motor vehicle shenanigans. If all it takes are adoreable victims, those are easy to find. Organizing people into a formidable political force (like you also mentioned), that's the hard part.

Not to digress any further, but does anyone have any stats on the actual efficacy of MADD at reducing DUI? I ask because the only study I could Google was restricted-access, and I'd be interested to know what, if any, effect massive public-relations efforts have had in the past.

don't have stats but to be sure campaigns for seatbealts and against tobacco and drunk driving have definitely made an impact. Huge. Takes a long time though and much of the change happens as the little ones learn about it in school then it becomes a new cultural norm.

They did a lot more than PR - they got laws changed and enforced. I was coming of age while MADD was getting going, and I can tell you that the issue of drunk-driving was growing somewhat in public awareness before they were founded, but they really catalyzed it.

What they've done since then, well. They're a big organization, following the #1 rule of organizational dynamics: survive and grow the organization.

maybe we can get them to take on the project of getting traffic laws in general enforced?

i think that perhaps the most difficult issue relating to traffic safety is the serious delusion of drivers. the casual acceptance of the massive numbers of preventable death and injury is evidence of this. it can further be seen in the fact that most drivers can't stand others on cell phones, but feel that when they do it, it is perfectly safe.

it isn't perfectly safe. driving at all isn't safe, as it is currently done in this country. but in general, we refuse to acknowledge that fact. 444 people died in alcohol related deaths in pa last year. i imagine the impaired drivers in the overwhelming majority of those cases are (or were) otherwise reasonable people. but they deluded themselves into thinking their actions weren't dangerous.

in order to create change, we have to first convince people that there is a problem. unfortunately, that will be hard to do when everyone is part of the problem.

ejwme: I WISH we could MADD to adopt Distracted Driving, or even Dumb Driving, but instead they've become the WCTU.

Maybe we should form Men Against Distracted Driving and use the inevitable trademark suit for some cheap publicity.

@morningsider Commercial airlines started in the early 1900s. The development of aviation did not begin 1900 years before that.

Airlines were intelligent design. Evolution is something differnt.

I wish they would teach that in schools.

(edit) sorry there is confusion here. When i says "evolution" imean Darwinian evolutions.

Sure airplaines evolved - taht was a non-darwinian fasion.

AS far as the issue at hand? Behavior probably won't change unless laws are enforced. Laws are unlikely to be enforced unless elections are affected.

having just returned from a business trip, I need to disagree with you Mick, airlines are anything but intelligent design. Profitable design is about all I'd allow.

HV (and Mick), well put. Depressing, but well put.

This may only be tangentially related to this particular discussion, but I chuckled cynically to myself the other day while sitting behind a tanker truck with a sign that said:

"This truck follows all posted speed limits"

So vehicles must have signs that state the driver follows the law? Think that might indicate a problem? Maybe?

"This truck follows all posted speed limits"

Translation: "The driver of this truck was told during training that he is to follow posted speed limits but we have absolutely no control over whether that is actually true except that we put this sign on the truck in the hopes that whenever the driver sees it, say when he's taking a break and walking to the rest stop, that he will remember that he was actually told by his employers not to exceed the speed limit. This is in addition to all the signs on the highway that say "speed limit" which are there to remind him that, when he was in training for his drivers license he was told what the law was and he was supposed to obey it but that's only the law and not our responsibility. Of course, we say all this with a wink and a nod because really, time is money, and the faster he gets his truck from one location to another, the more money we make because all that accumulated time builds up and allows us to ship more product. But, you never heard us say that. We are all about safety. It says so on the truck."

Kordite, I have to disagree there...

I usually assume that those signs are posted on trucks with companies that have zero tolerance for speeding tickets, as an explanation to the enraged car drivers behind him why on earth he's unwilling to go 45 in a 25, despite the angry weaving and honking going on behind him.

@ejwme: That's my point. How screwed up is traffic law enforcement? So screwed up that a sign like that has to exist at all.

+1 Tabby. Yes, a super long time. MADD started its activism in the 1970s, anti-smoking activism began in the 1960s but didn't get any traction until Surgeon General C. Everett Koop took it up as a cause celebre in the 1980s. Even so, it's taken fully 25 to 30 years, an entire generation and then some, for both causes to result in people taking them seriously. I'd even go so far as to say you have to wait for the "anti"s to die before you get the changes you want. If that's true, we'll get the safer roads we want by about 2035. Ten dollar gas may hurry that along some, but old ideas die hard.

MADD hasn't "solved" anything as far as I'm concerned. Drunk driving deaths went down a lot during the 80's (almost 50%) but since then it's sort of plateaued and is still 1/3 of all auto-related deaths.

Obviously 50% is much better than 100%, and I'd certainly be happy about a 50% drop in cyclist fatalities, but there are still a ton of people dying out there.

(BTW, overall traffic deaths are pretty constant over that time period, so what does that mean? Less people driving drunk but the sober ones are driving more dangerously?)

I wasn't aware that MADD existed in the 70s. I might have to retract my statement about being around during its nascence.

I need that magnetic sticker for my car. I'll slap it on the back. "This car obeys all posted speed limits." Then maybe people wont honk, tailgate, and try to pass at a double yellow, narrow, blind curve in a residential 25 mph zone.

Well, 1980 on MADD's creation. I knew I was still in college when it occurred. I lost a friend to a drunk driver in 1979 while at Geneseo, so maybe that's where I was getting the 1970s reference.

dwillen, if you search the board archives, I believe there is a discussion of a a group in another doing bumper stickers just like that.

the neighborhood pace car program in washington, dc?

Yes, that's what I was thinking of.

Excellent letter in the P-G today (Sunday) on this.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11163/1152892-110-0.stm

That was well written letter.

Anyone want to take a stab designing an "OBEY Speed Limits" bumper sticker for us a la http://obeygiant.com/archives

Anyone want a cease-and-desist letter from Shepard Fairey?

[edit] Scott, I do love the idea, though...

how bout a "cease and desist" speeding poster with fairey on it?

I was going to be a smart alec and suggest that billboards be placed along WA Blvd reproducing Barbara Kruger's "Don't Be A Jerk" image from 1984. She's another artist that Fairey riffs on without attribution.

Unfortunately, I just saw that the NYC DOT is using that slogan against cyclists, not autos.

That's a sad state of affairs. The letter sarah_q links to above really is spot-on!

What is needed are "Enforcement Faeries" in shiny vehicles with colourful flashing lights.

I did like Bike Snob's suggestion (scroll down, NSFW) to counter the "Don't be a jerk" campaign.

Sure, it's a bit harsh, but I've also never heard of a cyclist losing control of his bicycle on the 59th Street bridge and plowing into a check cashing place.

^ that's funny (bike snob's alt campaign in the link)!

+1 I have no qualms with producing "Don't be a @%$!#$!$@#"

Back to letters to the editor. A hit and run driver ran into a HOUSE on 40th and Liberty in Bloomfield early Saturday morning, causing thousands of dollars of damage. I'm guessing there won't be any letters to the editor from outraged motorists about this. However, when cyclists get plowed into, it seems to touch off a barrage of "cyclists need to follow the rules" polemics.

maybe we should send in a bunch of letters to the editor about scofflaw houses?

also: i would totally fight fairey on that trademark case. mostly because when i think of "obey" i think of they live, not his stuff.

I saw *two* stories on the news this morning about drivers hitting houses (I don't think either one was the one scott mentioned) - it's a scourge! In the one case the house was a mere 90 FEET from the roadway when it got right in the driver's way! 90 feet! too close!

I'm sure this is why modern zoning laws have setback provisions - to keep the houses well out of the way of cars.

I thought the setback provisions were for potential future street widening and whatnot.

anybody have any word on the Drs? any update on the case?

ejwme, don't inject facts into a discussion of truths!

@Salty I saw *two* stories on the news this morning about drivers hitting houses

Yes, but have you EVER seen a house stop for a stop sign? Yield the right-of-way?

Do houses always wear reflectors and have lights at night? Or do they pretend they are invisible to cars?

Huh?

About road rules

Summer weather is upon us, and now we have reports of cars against bicycles houses. If the law currently states that bicycles houses are entitled to use the roads with cars, this law must change.

Bicycles houses are not required to be registered as motor vehicles. Bicycles houses are not required to be insured as are motor vehicles, nor are they required to display a license plate as are motor vehicles. There are many instances in which I have witnessed a bicycle house ignoring a traffic control device and continuing on, forcing traffic that had the right of way to yield to the cyclist landscaping.

Those who ride bicycles live in houses should be given a citation from police just as they would if they were in a motor vehicle and chose to ignore a traffic law. Then and only then will the playing field be level, and maybe motorists would become more tolerant of bicycles houses on the road.

KARL AUFMAN quizbot

oh dernit, bbpress does not like the strike tag.

...or inline css

quite beautiful nonetheless!

The beauty of this is that if Karl Aufman ever Googles his own name, this thread will appear fairly high in the list.

Anudder Letter in the post gazette - LINK

Finally, we know how to use hand signals and would appreciate if drivers could return the favor and flick up or down on their turn signal switches.

Which doesn't require you to take your hands off the steering wheel like signaling from a bike.

Which doesn't require you to take your hands off the steering wheel like signaling from a bike.

or your foot off the brakes, or the clutch. or imbalance yourself. and so on and so forth. what an irritating canard.

Awesome story out of D.C. about a "Girl on a Bike."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bicyclists_struck

A bunch of cyclists were hit by a drunk driver in LA. I hope she goes away for a long time.

Drunk AND on the cell. Lovely combination.

Yeah, but there may be mitigating factors here folks! They were stopped! And near a light that may have been out! We can't go throwing every Tom, Dick and Harry in the slammer for a few burnt out bulbs!

It was 1:30 in the morning. Did she have her headlights off, too?

wojty: I hope you are joking. She was drunk and playing with her cell phone. I don't know this for a fact but I bet a large number of people in that ride had red rear blinkies on also.

Complete jest. I find it appalling how factors about the cyclists come up in this circumstance. Had the driver been drunk and hit a woman pushing a stroller, outrage aplenty.

I assume that a group of cyclists, street light or not, stopped or not, would at least be somewhat easier to see than someone out for a walk. But somehow the possibility of blaming the cyclists still comes out.

Any updates on the Dr. Noll's condition? Or if the police has any leads into the driver who did this? Or is this just another "unfortunate accident" and an statistic in the books?

sigh.

""It appears that they were stopped in traffic" and some who had dismounted to chat with friends technically were pedestrians, Krumer said. Bicyclists have a legal right to use the right traffic lane unless they impede traffic, and pedestrians are barred from traffic lanes, Krumer said. Violators potentially could be cited, he added."

Survive a hit by a drunk texter and yet still get ticketed. Kill someone while screwing around with a flip flop while late to school and a teenager, and pay a $500 fine. I love our society. Pointless tickets for everybody!

I'd also be interested in an update... by now the gold colored vehicle has had time to get the weapon and evidence "repaired" and is undoubtedly back on the road. Anybody do a stakeout of that location to see if a gold colored whatever flies by that time of day repeatedly?

Bicyclists have a legal right to use the right traffic lane unless they impede traffic

this is patently false. if that were true, the idea would be extended to bar everything from the traffic lane, because traffic impedes traffic. and claiming that they have the right to use the right lane (as in the right lane only) is preposterous as well. and this guy's the bicycle liaison?

but that is all beside the point, which is this: it's disgusting that someone is publicly blaming the victims. it's bad enough that trolls in the comments section of news stories take that tack, but for any official to publicly discuss how those injured by an irresponsible drunk idiot on a cell phone might be somehow in the wrong—i simply haven't the words.

You cut off what the cop said next, which is much more reasonable:

"They're not at fault simply for being out there in the roadway," he said of the cyclists.

The cop is described as the "LAPD's bicycle liason", and it sounds to me like he knows what he's talking about.

California V C Section 21202 Operation on Roadway

Operation on Roadway

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.

California V C Section 21654 Slow Moving Vehicles

Slow-Moving Vehicles

21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(b) If a vehicle is being driven at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time, and is not being driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, it shall constitute prima facie evidence that the driver is operating the vehicle in violation of subdivision (a) of this section.

(c) The Department of Transportation, with respect to state highways, and local authorities, with respect to highways under their jurisdiction, may place and maintain upon highways official signs directing slow-moving traffic to use the right-hand traffic lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or preparing for a left turn.

@bikeygirl Any updates on the Dr. Noll's condition? Or if the police has any leads into the driver who did this? Or is this just another "unfortunate accident" and an statistic in the books?

Dr. Noll is in intensive rehab and hopes to be able to go home in a week or two. It's going to be a long road to recovery for him--it will be several months before he is allwed to put weight on his left hip for example--but he is moving along that road very well. His outlook, as always, is upbeat and positive. We've been discussing what frame he will build a new bike around when he is ready to ride.

Dr. Finder is doing very well.

I don't think there have been any updates on the investigation.

@scott Anyone want to take a stab designing an "OBEY Speed Limits" bumper sticker for us a la http://obeygiant.com/archives

Personally, I would not want the pompous, vacuous, and largely plagiarized work of Shepard Fairey associated with bicycles in any way.

@Ohiojeff Man... another week or two in the hospital for Dr Noll? That would make it almost a month since the accident. Gosh Regardless, glad to hear that he is recovering, and gotta say, BALLS that he's already discussing the build of his new bike! Good for him And good for Dr. Finder too

Thank you for update! As always, wishing for a full and perhaps-even cheerful recovery

You cut off what the cop said next, which is much more reasonable:

"They're not at fault simply for being out there in the roadway," he said of the cyclists.

The cop is described as the "LAPD's bicycle liason", and it sounds to me like he knows what he's talking about.

you can't unsay stupid drivel by saying not-so-stupid drivel afterward. and while he may know what he's talking about, he's not saying it very well. cyclists may absolutely "impede traffic". and remain on the roadway.

Personally, I would not want the pompous, vacuous, and largely plagiarized work of Shepard Fairey associated with bicycles in any way.

so apparently i'm the only person still alive that thinks of "they live" when i hear/see "obey"? i think zombies would make for cool obey the speed limit signs.

There are no quotation marks around the sentence "impede traffic" sentence, so who knows what he actually said. I agree it's a poor choice of words.

If the article read the way ejwme quoted it, I would be outraged. But "They're not at fault simply for being out there in the roadway" does completely change the tone of what he said as far as I'm concerned.

@HV: Nope, you're not the only one who saw Carpenter's film; from where do you think SF appropriated it? And "They" were imperialistic capitalist alien overlords, not zombies (or any undead variant), to be accurate.

I still champion "Bikes May Take A Lane."

see, I read the next sentence, and it doesn't negate the fact that he said they could be cited. If they're not at fault for simply being in the roadway, then they can't be cited. If they can be cited, they're at fault for being in the roadway. There's no gray there.

There is plenty of gray because it's two (at least partially) independent things.

It's not legal for anyone to stand in the middle of the roadway, whether they are astride a bicycle or not.

It's also not legal for a car to run someone over, even if they are standing in the middle of the roadway.

How legal is it for a motorcyclist to stand astride their vehicle at an intersection? Are they breaking the law at every stop sign and red light?

If you stop your car at a stop sign, that's fine. If you sit there for 30 minutes having lunch, that's not.

As a pedestrian, you can walk across the road, no matter how slowly you go, but you can't stop half way across and make a phone call.

Here, it seems like the cyclists stopped (OK), but instead of moving onto the shoulder to wait, they stayed in the road (after some period of time, becomes not-OK), and even dismounted and walked around in the road while waiting (not OK).

If you're in a traffic lane but not moving, you need a good reason. Waiting for a light or dealing with mechanical issues are good reasons. For longer stops, you have to get out of the road, whether you're in a car or on foot or on a bike.

That's how I understand it anyway.

However, in the instant she came upon them, they could have been there for a moment or an hour. So, from her perspective, it offers no mitigation and certainly no justification that they may or may not have exceeded a "reasonable" period stopped at that point in their travels.

And, unless there is a vehicle behind you, you are not "impeding traffic" and can sit for as long as you like at a stop sign or traffic light. No rule against it of which I'm aware. I could of course be wrong as CA traffic law is not my purview.

In other words: "If a tree falls in the middle of the road and there are no vehicles, is it impeding traffic?"

The article doesn't say whether any earlier vehicles had had to go around the cyclists, or how long they had been there. So I don't think we can conclude that the cop was wrong, and the cyclists were behaving perfectly legally and not impeding traffic. Not enough information.

I agree the drunk driver should get the blame for this accident, of course. There could be lots of people who could have done something differently to prevent the accident: maybe a bartender, a friend of the drunk driver who didn't take her keys, perhaps people whose behaviors resulted in a dead streetlight and a blind corner, and maybe the cyclists as well. That doesn't mean she gets to blame them for it.

Actually Steven, thanks to the presumption of innocence, we can conclude the cyclists were not behaving illegally, especially as there is "not enough information".

Even if a vehicle had been required to bypass them earlier, at the time of the incident they were not impeding traffic, or the allegedly texting drunk driver would have plowed into that hypothetical and nonexistent vehicle rather then the cyclists.

I'll give the "bicycle liaison officer" the benefit of the doubt and assume he was incorrectly quoted, because those words were warty frogs that issued forth from his mouth.

There is plenty of gray because it's two (at least partially) independent things.

they may have been independent things. but if they were, they should've been reported in different stories.

from no perspective is this ok.

I thought about this on last night's Flock ride. Frequently there are occasions where a bunch of cyclists are waiting at a light ahead while other cyclists catch up from an earlier light. Does it matter that they were bunched at a light? Is it any different if they were bunched just past a light?

At another point last night, a UPS truck was parked in the right driving lane of Fifth Avenue, in the middle of the block. Had this woman plowed into a parked UPS truck, there would have been no question.

How is it any different that a bunch of cyclists were there instead? Would it have been less bad if the cyclists were lined up single file, and she collided with the first two or three, instead of a group?

Yet another thought, are the cyclists defenseless in this situation? I think so. With the driver's head down in a telephone screen, even if an astute stopped cyclist sees the oncoming driver and yells a warning, there wouldn't be time for people to jump out of the way, nor for the driver to come to her senses and steer away.

There might not be enough information to resolve doubts about all aspects of this case, but there's enough to resolve most of them, and they all point to driver culpability.

Had she plowed into a *legally* parked UPS truck, there would have been no question. But if it was illegally parked...

Not that I really disagree -- if the obstacle is visible and stationary, there's no excuse for hitting it, even if it's not "supposed" to be there.

Ok, screw arguing semantics:

http://www.bikesidela.org/update-video-christine-dahab-blew-a-07-lapd-preliminarily-blame-cyclists/

@Salty: Good find, but seriously -that driver plowed into 11 cyclists, and with all the facts at hand, the LAPD still lists as the primary cause of accident "pedestrians in the roadway"?? Sad, sad.....

A letter published in the Post-gazette by Drs. Finder and Noll

since sloaps link is broken, I'll save everyone from browsing the P-G: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11171/1154484-109-0.stm

That's a great piece by the two docs. And generous that they took the time to write it, despite the major disruption to their lives that the hit-and-run has already cost.

I too thought it was great that they had an editorial piece in the Sunday paper. I

did have an issue with one minor point- they made it sound like the only reason for commuting by bike was to save money. I consider tht a byproduct of my bike commute, not the reason.

I think that was an appeal to those that may be more likely to accept something someone does out of necessity than out of enjoyment.

Well-stated, even, practical, fair, inoffensive. A great letter.

more dang houses rolling through stop signs

Damn. Sorry about the bad html.

Ruth Ann says we simply need better roads... for drivers.

wow - patently offensive stupidity interleaved with bits of insipid nonsense. i was hoping it was satirical but unfortunately i think she's serious.

I assumed everything Ruth Ann wrote was satire.

She describes the traffic tie-up as a "crisis" and has nothing to report about injuries or deaths that may have been related to the pile up.

The adequate roadways just need to have better drivers perusing them.

RuthAnn has to write something once a week and she always makes her deadline.

It will be noted that in today's head-on collision between a Ford F-350 truck and a Port Authority bus, the bus was exactly where it was supposed to be, and the truck crossed the center line.

Houses, bikes, buses - the darn things keep getting in the way of all these privately operated vehicles!

We need dedicated bus lanes to keep the busses safe.

Was the bus wearing a helmet?

I once saw a different bus roll through a stop sign in a different location, so that bus must have deserved it!

Here's a very sad story out of Boulder where a cyclist was killed by a left-turning truck. The driver was actually busted in 2009 for using his truck to push a cyclist into oncoming traffic! I wonder what kind of slap on the wrist he got for that. Maybe if they had done something meaningful like take his license away, there would be one less dead cyclist today.

http://annarbor.com/news/eugene-philip-howrey-killed-when-dump-truck-strikes-bike-founding-member-of-ann-arbor-bicycle-tourin/

"I wonder what kind of slap on the wrist he got for that."

A ticket.

As you get ticketed for moving violations, you accrue points against your license. If you get enough points, you lose your license. If you have no license, you are not legal to drive.

@almklm If you have no license, you are not legal to drive.

And if you get caught, you might get a ticket.

Mick, Fungi, you make a good point. So what do we do? Jail people for speeding, blowing stop signs? What's your plan?

I was just explaining how the law works. Is it imperfect? Yes. Every law has holes. And people are always going to break laws.

But what would you put in it's place?

@ ALMKLM

Give them tickets for going through stops signs and for speeding. To the point where it would be unsual to see someone going 30 mph in a 25 mph zone.

Simple enforcement would go such along way.

They shouldn't be roads where a driver feels uncomfortable going the speed limit because traffic is so much faster. Srop signs shouldn't be optional.

For car drivers, people who obey traffic laws should be the rule, not the exception.

If someones license was taken away for potentially fatal driving and they still drive? Put them in jail for a long time and never let them drive again.

@Mick: +1

Most road users (and I mean everyone, not just motorists) assume that "laws" are "suggestions" that apply to other people. As I posted previously, that tanker trucks need signs telling other people they go the speed limit says a lot about how enforcement is viewed.

Mick +1, bjanaszek +1. Now that we've defined the solution, can it be implemented?

If not, do we need a different solution?

Not only that, but there's the fact that in most cases the cop cannot pull you over for less than 10 over the limit. I guarantee that causes people to automatically add 10 to whatever the sign says as a baseline.

I'd love to see a poll of how many people think it's actually legal to speed by <10mph.

@ lyle Now that we've defined the solution, can it be implemented?

If not, do we need a different solution?

Enforcement of the laws is not "all or none." We can provide some political pressure to enforce the laws. While motorists comprise the majority of voters, any progress will be modest.

Mick - I was talking about the law. Enforcement and human nature are separate issues.

What you call "simple enforcement," however is a loaded question. Try and imagine what it would take from a personnel and cost perspective to universally enforce traffic laws. A cop on every corner? A team of officers at every signalled intersection?

Clearly, our society has performed it's own cost/benefit analysis, and the result is: some people will get hurt, and some people will die. I don't like it, but those apparently are the our society's values.

How do you change the values of 330 million people?

How do you change the values of 330 million people?

We don't need to do that. We only need to nudge the values of a few hundred thousand people. Actually, you only need to change the values of the people in your neighborhood. Think globally, act locally, right?

Enforcement is an issue, which is why I think adding new laws seems silly. If the police can't enforce a 25MPH speed limit (which is reasonably measurable with the proper tools), how do we expect them to enforce a three foot passing buffer? That said, it's not hard for a cop to sit at a particularly bad intersection and enforce the law for awhile. Maybe it'll help shape behavior a bit.

"That said, it's not hard for a cop to sit at a particularly bad intersection and enforce the law for awhile. Maybe it'll help shape behavior a bit."

That's okay, if you're satisfied with a little temporary incremental change. Maybe fewer people will get hurt, and fewer people will die. That's an improvement.

But - and this is where I think Mick and others are aiming - how do you affect REAL change - meaning our society values cyclists lives to the extent that traffic laws are enforced more fully - which means we make the investment in police to do so.

I'm just not sure that our society is prepared to make that investment.

I don't think draconian law enforcement is the answer. The UK has over 6000 automated speed cameras and statistics on their impact on traffic fatalities/injuries are largely inconclusive. (Both sides have statistics to back up their arguments... remember what Mark Twain said.) People driving 30 in a 25 or 64 in a 55 aren't the main problem.

Inattentiveness, aggression, and impairment are the biggest issues. It's very difficult to make people actually pay attention to the road with "simple enforcement." The safest roads are usually ones that demand constant attention, e.g., have traffic calming devices, etc.

Cameras and traffic calming cost money. Our society hasn't demonstrated it is willing to make that investment. Or we would have already done so by now.

Police department budgets ebb and flow with two things: crime rates, and election cycles.

Since it is not a serious crime to harrass cyclists, or break traffic laws, we can't depend on crime rates to convince the politicians to provide the PD with the means to enforce the laws (increase budget for traffic watch, allow radar by LPD, etc).

Motorists won't vote for an incumbant who ticketed them, their friends and famiy while they were speeding to work/grocery/wherever, so politicians won't put pressure on PDs to get out there and inconvenience their constituents.

No win. We are the unprotected, uncared for minority. We have been deemed expendable. Welcome to America.

And I thought I was cynical.

sorry, I go through phases. that LA/culver city nonsense really put me off people.

I'm with you, ejwme of this....

It's true that I'm not sure how much enforcing traffic laws like speeding and stopping at stop signs would affect safety.

I don't think it would take much enforcement to change habits of speeding and stop signs.

If (big if) bikes became more and more popular to the point that they stoped being "alternative" transportation, It will be interesting to see what will happen.

In that situation, I'm guessing that before serious enforcement of car traffic violations occurs, there would be a ground swell to punish biking evil-doers who fail to stop at stop signs and go through red lights.

Now this is enforcement.

Enforcement is okay, but design is better. Why do people always race down WA Blvd? Because the road encourages that behavior. If we want to change the behavior, the road can be adapted. We need more support behind these concepts, obviously, but it's slow work to make these changes. I think anyone who lives or works anywhere near there should be attending meetings, voicing opinions to officials and talking up the issues with people you know.

re design, there's that phrase that locks are there in order to keep the honest people honest. In order to be a criminal you have to go well out of your way. That's mostly not the way our roads are built. Our roads make it easy, convenient and helpful to break the laws.

Good road/traffic engineers know this, and design the roads and interchanges for the safety of cars, regardless of the nominal speed limits. The best engineers design for the safety of all road users.

Good road and traffic engineers don't set policy and regulations; they design to what the client requests and they will gladly accept money to work on the same problem over and over again.

You want changes in our roads and in design, then don't apply for federal transportation funds as they will limit the scope of the engineer to provide innovative and/or non-standard solutions.

The city can do whatever the city wants on a city road with city money. When the city holds their hand out for state or federal funding, the check is delivered with lots of strings attached to it.

@salty - I think a clarification has to be made to one of your posts. A state police friend of mine told me that it is not "worth their time" to white a ticket for less than ten PERCENT over the posted speed limit. Not ten miles. The ramifications of being 10 miles over in a 25 mph zone and a 65 mph zone is huge. My cruise control is often set at thay 110 percent of posted speed figure, and it has served me well.

That said, the speed limits in PA are considered "absolute." You can be ticketed for going 1 mph over the posted speed limit. I was once stopped for being less than 5 miles over in a 25 mph zone. Ticket was thrown out due to lack of signage on posted speed, but I did have to take it to court to spare myself the $$$ and the potential points.

Whether they choose not to enforce the law below a certain threshold is a completely different matter. The 10 mph "buffer" is written right into the law, 75 Pa. C. S. § 3368 (c) (4):

no person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) in an area where the legal speed limit is less than 55 miles per hour if the speed recorded is less than ten miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter33.pdf

Per the preceding text, that threshold does not apply if the cop paces you for 3/10 of a mile, and for radar it's 6mph (but that's for state police only). I believe that despite the language about "sensors", systems like VASCAR have been ruled "electronic devices" as per paragraph 3 (and thus subject to the 10 mph restriction).

What were the circumstances of your 5mph over ticket?

[edit: reference for (4) applying to VASCAR: http://travel.3dresearch.com/daletter.html]

Penalosa made two key suggestions to my mind in his talk.

1. Protected bike lanes. This won't really impact we "kamikazes", but it has increased pedalcycle traffic up to five fold where it's been implemented, and that builds a political base for change. Not sure how one could implement this in a grassroots or guerrilla fashion, without going to jail that is...

2. Speedbumps. Yup, speedbumps. This can be done very locally, and has the potential for guerrilla actions, with "faux" Trompe-l'œil speedbumps. It's not legal...but it is clever? And real speedbumps say Downtown, or on Liberty in Bloomfield, or wherever, with cuts for cyclists...

To paraphrase Max Planck, "Truth never triumphs — its opponents just die out." And even grimmer and with intended adianoeta, "Science advances one funeral at a time." Human attitudes can't be altered en masse, but behaviour can. Hence my call for enforcement.

Now here's the sticky bit. No one can tell a PA cop what to do. By Law they are independent. A cop's boss can't order him or her to enforce a law. In reality of course some pressure can be brought to bear, but legally, they can ignore it at their own discretion. A friend of mine teaches this at the Academy. My takeaway from this is that each officer needs to be convinced that we are of value as humans, and that enforcing traffic laws on the books now will help keep us safe and sound. To this end I lecture, uh, converse with cops quite a bit, which if you knew me you'd realize is borderline insane. BikePgh proper could formally address each class of officers, and request their compliance. Of course I don't know that "the powers that be" at BikePgh are not already doing this, but I don' t know that they are either. Each Zone should also be address. I wonder if the Docs might be persuaded to do this, or participate? And so on. Enough with the suggestions on what this organization's leadership might do.

Here's what I'm doing, and what you can do too. Strike up conversations with cops. Address them as "officer" at all times. Respect the office, if not the person. Do not make sudden movements, do not reach for things in your pockets, do not feed....wait, this is for bears.

Tell them who you are and what you do. Tell them of how so and so almost killed/maimed/ran you off the road. Ask what you might do? Ask if they ride or have thought be on bike patrol. Demonstrate you know the law, and are in compliance. I memorized and recite the Title and so on of the lights regs (Title 75, Chapter 35, Sub-chapter A, Section 3507, a), and the one that gives us rights on the road (Title 75, Chapter 35, Sub-chapter A, Section 3501, a & b). They are usually impressed then and hear me out. Not your style? Print out the code and highlight the relevant passages. Do what you will. I'm sure you ken the gist here? Then ask if they wouldn't mind writing a ticket or two, because in the short and long run, that might make the difference in you living or not. Make these your own words however you choose. You folk are smart. But, talk to cops. (Just don't cop to anything.)

This is our only option to implement enforcement. Will it make a difference? I don't know. I do know I have a friend or many on the force who will, if I come to them with a plate number and description, enforce the law for me.

Apologies for the speechifying.

This is related to the bus talk on the last page.

True story: Today I saw a bus downtown move fully into the opposing lane to pass an EBA. And they say that filtering forward on a bike is dangerous.

Re: speed bumps; never going to happen anywhere PennDot has jurisdiction over the road, which, I believe is the case on Wash Blvd. On a project that I worked on, we tried to implement some traffic calming measures through the little business district in Forest Hills, Rt 30. PennDot would accept nothing that would impact the movement of cars and trucks through the area. In their view, pedestrians are nothing more than a hazard to motorized vehicles. Bikes simply don't exist. They are 50 years behind the curve in terms of traffic policy. Nothing is going to change until that culture literally dies off. The entire entity is run by ingrown, non-elected officials, with 0 public accountability, who will never lose their jobs, and is gangrenous.

@salty - What lead to my citation was this: I pulled out of a driveway in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and started moving at ambient speed (a garbage truck was next to and slightly in front of me). I went about one block, and saw a School Zone sign, speed limit 25. I had not yet entered the school zone, but I realized I was going to be speeding very shortly, so I started to slow, just as I passed a cop running vascar or ??? from a nearby driveway. I was going 39 in a 35 zone when I was cited. The charge was dismissed in traffic court on the grounds that there was no speed limit sign between where I entered the roadway and where I was cited, and because the judge knew the area and said "no one travels the speed limit there." So, technically, I was cited for going 39 in a 35 zone.

Guerrilla speed bumps, eh? How about something like this?

I will readily admit I've considered added bumps to our street in M'side.

^ good one!

Then after you've successfully trained drivers to ignore ball-playing girls in the road, you could start painting police officers on the road.

+1 sloaps, edmonds - even the best engineers/plans/construction goes all wonky when ... well... anybody gets involved.

http://www.projectcartoon.com/cartoon/46980

(now that's a joke about communication, but not all communication is bad, sometimes attitudes are bad and prevent even the best communication efforts)

So a Trompe-l'œil of a cyclist at the entrance to each tunnel in Pgh may cure yinzers of decelerating when entering?

@ejwme, etc - How then do you explain Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bogota', Davis..?

@bjanaszek i'm totally down with adding speed bumps to chislett. people go 40 to the next stop sign, roll through at 15-20 and gun it to 40 again the whole way down the street.

@cburch: Yep. Same on Jancey. I believe there's a walkabout with Councilman Dowd next week (or is it this week?). I'm going to suggest the city re-engineer the intersection of Jancey and Baker to include a 3 way stop sign and a sharper corner to slow traffic on our block. The current configuration allows people to take the corner F1-style.

i hate that corner. i'm shocked someone isn't killed there monthly.

Aw, but it's really fun corner to bomb on my bike...

Seriously tho, agree it really should have a three way stop. No one coming down the hill on Baker seems to realize there's not an opposing stop anyway.

Riding down it on a bike is a nice way to start a long ride. There is plenty of room for a small island that could calm things a bit.

Grrr... Chislett. Those same people feel the need to try and pass me between every stop sign, only to see my rolling by them at 12mph a few seconds later

My dream for Chislett and Jancey is to install angled parking on one side of the street and have a bikeped path on the other.

that's a wonderful dream. would never happen down by st raphs though. how would everyone park for san rocco or the parish festival? the best part is that most of the houses on both streets HAVE off street parking for at least one car. everyone chooses to ignore it because it would add a minute or two to go around the alley and park in their yards.

fungi - I see those places as needing no explanation, they are as they ought to be (well, I don't know about Bogota, not entirely convinced it really exists).

It is Pittsburgh that has some serious explaining to do.

ejwme - I learned to ride a bike in Davis CA in the 60's, where bikes have right of way over everyone, including pedestrians. It's enforced and respected. I would hazard the guess no one on this planet had or has higher expectations then me for biking safely. Everything has been downhill since. I've adapted.

Yes, Pgh has some explaining to do. But what/who is Pgh? It's you and me. I moved here ten years ago. Tell me, Pgh/ejeme, why haven't you made it like Davis here? Whining about what "they" are or are not doing is a popular pastime here in Pgh. I have not taken up the hobby. I'd rather mycocycle and practice obvious and subversive political activism. Want to guarantee things stay as they are? Cherish, defend and celebrate your cynicism and whinging.

@fungi: I get you're trying to challenge Pittsburgh by your post, but ejwme is the most positive, constructive contributor on this message board. She does not deserve to be targeted in this way. You owe her an apology.

I moved here twenty years ago and started making cyclists as soon as I got here. Make a couple more every year, and they make a few more each and eventually there's a lot. Ever seen an exponential curve? The next couple of years should be interesting.

see, fungi, Davis has UC Davis and a historically progressive population. Pgh has US Steel and a historically conservative population - one that was in the process of losing all their wiggle room and hope as Davis was continuing to flower. We've lost population every year since the 80s - the population that was up for change and willing to work for it (just a different change than the one than we'd prefer). Sure there are the stalwart few who remained and continued to work and fight, and there were some feisty ones born here who haven't left (yet?).

But me? I made peace with my passive choices to stay, and decided to work to make where I live into what I want. But I can't vote in the city. So I join BPGH. I attend my local municipal meetings and get smiled at politely and offered a ride home, cautioned that it's not safe out there. I joined PA Walks & Bikes, but representatives of our government seem only interested in hearing from volunteers at 10AM on weekdays. I write letters, I send emails, I forward action alerts to all my friends and family and never hear a word back.

I ride lit up and following the rules. I try to maintain composure (and sometimes fail) when bad things happen. I try to wave and smile and nod at drivers who are even slightly aware and do the bare minimum of following the rules.

I commiserate with coworkers who bitch about cyclists who break laws (while reminding them constantly I'm a cyclist). I sympathize with coworkers who are scared to drive with bikes on the road (while reminding them that it is in their power to alleviate their (and cyclists') fears). I patiently and politely explain why some cyclists make some decisions and remind them that I have no special insights into cyclists just like they have no special insights into drivers.

So yeah, it's "they". "They" isn't Lyle, or Scott, or Erok, or Mick, or most anybody on this board. But "they" isn't me.

edited to add: yeah, I am headed West, but I'm not there yet. Like a nomad planting asparagus, I don't have to see it to hope that something good happens.

+1 to what Lyle said. I hold little hope that there is a technocratic policy solution for the issues that road users face. Yes, the city (and other levels of government) can make things better (and we should hold them to that), but it seems more effective to spread the word personally and at least get folks to realize there is a world outside of their car.

@ejwme -- your post really requires no comment. It is what it is, and you are who you are. But I'm going to try anyway.

Thanks for taking the time to post such a gracious and from-the-heart explanation. ALMKLM is right, and I think you just proved it.

+bjanaszek and ejewme said!

Even the sparkliest among us is allowed to have a down day. ej walks the talk. Imagine that, under all the hearts and sparkles, there's a chromoly steel frame. Probably on the bike, too. ++

awe shucks, y'all are too sweet.

Getting back to speed bumps: I probably mentioned this before, but I will mention it again. When i use mossfield to get from Penn over to black street, I see cars continue to speed over 40mph and go into opposing traffic to get around the speed bump that is only in their lane that was probably put there to slow people down to the 25mph speed limit ahead.

While I certainly "feel the love" in the calls for an apology by her loyal friends, for me to advance one would be insincere. I did not criticize her or anyone for what they have or have not done in support of advancing biking in the 'burgh, but rather for embracing and championing an attitude of defeatism. When, after a rant on how nothing can change she writes "No win. We are the unprotected, uncared for minority. We have been deemed expendable" I want to ride my bike on the West End Bridge into the sunset, or buy an SUV. Say it can't be so enough times and no one even bothers to try: a fait accompli.

I did not and do not chastise her or anyone else here or anywhere else for what I acknowledge are positive and important actions to change Pgh transportation culture. I know ejwme et al. have done a lot. I appreciate and respect that. I'm not even asking you to do any more. Just stop saying things can't change. Enough with the negativity already?

I'm not "trying to challenge Pittsburgh by (my) post..." and anyone who "gets that" has misread it entirely. I proffered some alternatives to cynicism and resignation. Do them or not. Talk up "protected bike lanes", speedbumps and speak to the police individually about enforcing extant vehicular traffic regulations were my "action points". (With all due credit to Penalosa for the speedbump and protected bike lane suggestions: brilliant ideas to my mind.) I criticized the attitude of defeatism.

I will apologize if my writing was not crystal clear on these matters and misunderstood, but honestly, I think some of you read what you wanted, not what was written.

I do come away from this with a keener kenning of why Penalosa's talk was not discussed on this board.

Penalosa described the urban transportation situation at present as "a perfect storm" and though I take exception to that characterization, ("perfect storms" are not particularly good for humans, after all), conditions are ripe for a new urban transportation culture to sprout and thrive. The game is afoot, and/or, uh, apedal?

@stefb: I have a solution - more oncoming traffic! Then the cars won't be able to go in the oncoming lane to avoid the speedbumps!

Problem solved!

@fungi - feel free to start a thread about the Penolosa talk. I'm sure many would be interested in discussing it. I don't know you IRL, but I definitely did see several message board folks there that night.

"...I definitely did see several message board folks there that night."

As did I. I knew a few and met a few too.

If you start one I will come. I'll happily participate in a thread on Penalosa's notions. (I've never started a thread here, though I think I've ended a few...)

Didn't want to be presumptuous, but I think you're right in that it both deserves its own thread, and this may not be the most appropriate thread for such a discussion.

@ejwme I go through phases

No need to moon over it.

Mick, you are too much

Yeah, Mick can be a real lunatic sometimes.

I think ejwme's concerned that too many of my eccentric posts have orbitted around her.

it must be that animal magnetism I hear so much about...

Do you have a north and south pole? Are you bipolar?

Do pole dancers work with animal magnetism?

[editted to add: Damn. Now I'm getting too much for even me.]

Recall the cyclist in Mississippi who was hit, then run over again? The person that hit her, stopped, then ran her over again, will face NO felony charges.

That is just awful. I can't even imagine it turning out this way if it were a pedestrian hit rather than a cyclist. It's enough to make me think the driving industry is in bed with the courts.

@pseudacris It's enough to make me think the driving industry is in bed with the courts.

Wouldn't be the first time.

@Pseudacris:

Hey, they did it with streetcars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal

Good grief! There is no end to corporate evil.

This sounds just like what happend with the Electric car.... anybody see the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?" sad, sad...

It's an effective business model for transit, which is a poor man's business. Why own and maintain the vehicle and the right-of-way when autobuses are relatively cheaper and can run on roads you don't have to maintain.

first time I saw that link about two years ago, I was outraged.

every time I've seen it since, a little bit of outrage has been replaced by a little bit of deep sadness.

and now I'm just sad.

Little old lady that lives across the street from me, when she and her father moved there in 1925, they didn't have a car, and her dad worked at Westinghouse. Had no trouble getting to/from the office (worked in several different offices). I just spent two weeks without a car or a bike, I work for the same company he did and live across the street, I was completely stuck at home. The difference was 90 years, yet I feel like I'm the one that's backwards.

So, I guess that in Mississippi, is relatively OK by-law to run a cyclist TWICE.... argh!!!!!

http://urbanvelo.org/run-over-twice-still-not-a-crime-in-mississippi/

(and I'm sorry I didn't notice the previous post about htis before, but still!!!!!) How horrible

So on the 5am kdka broadcast, they said that The investigation has stalled and that police are asking people to come forward if they have any more info.

The P-G has a headline with the same info.

Follow up article in today's (sept 19th) PG:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11262/1175872-53.stm

What an amazing guy that he continues to write grants & such.

(Kinda OT, kinda not... every time I meet someone, and they find out I cycle, they mention this event. Not sure what that means...)

ALMKLM, it means that this has gotten enough press coverage that whoever did this knows they did it and knows the full consequences of what they did.

@Pseudacris--he and his wife are regular customers where I work. Even when he was still in a wheelchair, he was always positive and had a smile on his face. He's walking now and looking really good, all things considered.