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Sandcastle final mile

Anyone going to the Friday, October 12th ground breaking for the Sandcastle final mile of the GAP? It is at noon at the far end (by the scrap yard) of Sandcastle's parking lot. I am going to attend.


2012-10-09 16:13:07

I never really get a lunch on Fridays so I can't make these things. I would be tempted to yell out "it's about time!" Very glad this is happening.


stefb
2012-10-09 16:22:05

stefb - I am happy to yell it for you!


2012-10-09 16:32:32

Is Sandcastle/Keystone Really the Final Mile of the GAP?


Is Friday's media event really marking the beginning of the completion of the GAP?


Question: Will the Great Allegheny Passage be complete when the Sandcastle-Keystone Metals sections are open?


Here's a thought experiment. Let's say it's spring 2013 and Sandcastle and Keystone are open. Jack and Jill ride from DC to Pittsburgh, and they ride through McKeesport, through the Waterfront, through Sandcastle, through Keystone Metals, and up to the Hot Metal Bridge.


Is the HMB the terminus of the GAP? Probably not. So where does the "now-completed" GAP go to?


If it stays on the same side of the river, it continues along the SoSideWorx Plaza, and then stops a few blocks short of Station Square. Shirley that's not a completed GAP, ending at the Terminal Building?


If it crosses the HMB and takes the Jail Trail to Grant Street, and then takes the joint-use sidewalk to Smithfield Street, what then? That's not a completed GAP either, is it, ending at the Smithfield Street Bridge?


Where is the northern terminus of this completed GAP?


I think describing Sandcastle-Keystone as the Final Mile is a misnomer, and possibly an indication of GAP-fatigue.


vannever
2012-10-09 16:45:01

Vannevar - I share some of your frustration, but your facts are a little off.


When this is completed, you will be able to continue through Sandcastle and stay on the same side of the river all the way PAST station square, you can then loop around and take the bridge sidewalk over the river to the point, then cross the river again to the north shore and continue on those trails.....OR....cross the HM bridge and use the jail trail to access the city....so one could ride from the point all the way to DC.


2012-10-09 16:54:24

i'll take it. jack and jill can get from pittsburgh, pa to washington dc with nary a car in sight. sweeeeeet. getting to the point is the cherry on top of the icing, which will be a painless wait.


erok
2012-10-09 16:56:01

@VAnnevar Jack and Jill ride from DC to Pittsburgh,


Excellent thought experiement!


I ran into a lost GAP couple in Homestaed once and guided them past Sandcastle. (I suggested they go to OTB and that might not have to pay for their own beer.)


I started looking at the city "through their eyes."


We have a serious lack of signage.


When you get to the HMB, you can see downtown, but there are no signs to tell you which way to go. If you cross to the jailtrail, there isn't a sign at the ramp down to the street that indicates which way to go to get downtown. There are no signs directing Jail Trail riders to Oakland.


This couple was eventually headed to a B&B on North street.


There are no signs directing riders to the Ft Duquesne bridge or any other route for that matter.


Constrast that to the situation for cars, with clear road names at almost all intersection and great signage for people coming in from out of town on major routes. Do you need a map to get to, say, Monroeville? No. If you have soem clue as to where you are going ("We're supposed to go over a bridge from twown to some tunnel..." you can get where you want to go.


MEanwhile, if someone where looking for the Eliza Furnace trail on their way in from the GAP? NADA.


When they do get to that trail (or any other trail), there isn't even anything to let them know they've arrived. Even block-long alleyways are signed better than that.


I'm guessing it will take quite a grant to get good signage, but I think it's worth it.


mick
2012-10-09 16:56:34

And you technically have to take some roads in McKeesport still. This is the biggest barrier though since there isn't a good option for getting around it.


rsprake
2012-10-09 16:58:22

@TonyP you can then loop around and take the bridge sidewalk over the river to the point,


Hmmm...


Trying to get over the Ft Pitt Sidewalk with a fully loaded-for-camping bike might be a bit of a trip.


And of course, if they arrive on a Sunday night in the rain without very specific directions, they have no way of knowing how to get there, anyhow.


mick
2012-10-09 16:59:54

Mick - agreed, signage is poor. I end up using google map's pictures to figure out where I want to go. As we add infrastructure some signage would be nice. The Clairton Connector signage is hard to follow and one sign is totally wrong.


2012-10-09 17:01:54

Hi TonyP, I'm sorry to seem frustrated - I love the GAP, I'm going to love having SC/KM open it's going to be fabulous. I'm just a bit OCD-Orwellian about words meaning what they're supposed to.


And I appreciate a focus on the facts.


Fact1: The GAP is a motor-vehicle-free trail. From their website,


When completed, the 150-mile GAP will connect with the 184.5-mile C&O Canal Towpath at Cumberland, Maryland to create a 334.5-mile traffic and motorized vehicle-free route between Pittsburgh and Washington, DC.



Fact2: You can't get from the Point (which I think many would identify as the northern terminus of the GAP, but it's open to discussion) to the SoSide end of the HMB without riding on streets with cars.


Therefore, the GAP isn't complete if you're riding on streets with cars.

And it follows that opening SC-KM will not complete the GAP.


vannever
2012-10-09 17:04:41

Mick - agreed again, I have crossed those bridges with double panniers and the sidewalk is tight to say the least....not sure what I would have done had someone been oncoming.


I suspect anyone taking the full trail journey would do some route planning and scope this out. Its just not ready to drop in and head to DC.


2012-10-09 17:06:00

Vannevar - you got me there...no possible way to do it 100% car free. Still have that small piece outside Station Square on both sides, where it is road sharing. Of course the Mckeesport piece as well.


I guess I am excited at the idea of the connection under the Glenwood Bridge....makes my trips from work to OTB a lot easier!


2012-10-09 17:11:25

The whole route from Boston would be a nightmare to anyone thinking "I'll just follow the trail."


The other end isn't like that.


mick
2012-10-09 17:19:04

I'm just saying - what they're declaring on Friday isn't accurate, but I'm excited and glad for what they're doing.


And they can say whatever they'd like for public consumption if they're building bike infrastructure; i'm a bike whore that way.


And I should mention, on the DC side, you really have to know what you're doing to find MP0 behind the Thompson Boat House.


vannever
2012-10-09 17:33:08

We've actually found and led quite a few lost riders between the point and Boston this past year. Signage is non-existent in some places. It can be very confusing and frustrating for many to figure out and this opening won't change all of that. BUT...it will remove one giant barrier and we will no longer have to use the "don't ask, don't tell" work-around of walking along the tracks. I'm going to be very happy to see this segment complete and plan to attend Friday's festivities. :) It's all good!


2012-10-09 19:29:34

im glad i have the day off and it is looking as though the weather will be rather co-operative as well.

(and i need to go to target, so its pretty much on the ride :P )


2012-10-09 20:30:17

The official GAP route takes the Eliza Furnace Trail, so this won't complete the GAP as a car-free route to the Point. The South Side route is just an alternative.


But technically, the announcement says they're beginning work on the final mile, which is true. Currently the missing spans add up to maybe 2 miles. Once the Sandcastle/Keystone section is done, the remaining bits will be under half a mile, I think. (Tough expensive bits, but short.)


Totally agree about the lack of signage.


steven
2012-10-09 21:31:29

Leave downtown Pittsburgh with friends on Friday afternoon and takeweekend trips to camp and play at Ohiopyle!!! cool!!! Another step towards PITTSBURGH BIKE NIRVANA!!! well sorta. GOOD STUFF


2012-10-09 22:00:28

I hope to attend on Friday (cookies!).

I think this stretch will allow a lot of cyclist to expand their range. I've talked to many recreational riders at the turn-around who basically say they would "never" ride on the road. But by extending the trail to the stores/restaurants in Homestead they may find that it’s not as horrible as they think.


Also, signage sucks everywhere in PA.


marko82
2012-10-09 22:11:33

The C&O starts on an island attached by a crappy bridge that comes from a dirt trail off the parking lot of a rowing launch... so don't worry about it too much.


the trail now goes to the city limits on both sides! yay!


imakwik1
2012-10-09 22:17:16

I don't live there anymore so maybe this is off, but in theory, you will one day be able to cross to the Jail Trail, then cross the intersection at Grant and Fort Pitt and various off ramps, roll down that wide sidewalk/trail thingy, and then take the (and this is the part that could be off the planning boards?) switchback ramp down to the Mon Wharf and travel (possibly through thick mud) along there to some sort of bypass around the old railroad bridge pier and into Point State Park. So that might indeed be the last mile.


jeffinpgh
2012-10-09 22:19:49

hooray! Any estimates on when it will be completed?


2012-10-09 22:27:14

Yes, OhioJeff, I believe you're quite right - completion of the Mon Whorf Switchback would also complete the GAP, even if they only (initially) completed the stairs depicted on the left side of the bridge in this image.


I'd love to hear an update, but my understanding is that the MWS is designed, unfunded, and unscheduled.


Until that's complete, the GAP is incomplete.


vannever
2012-10-10 00:26:55

This page from December 2011 says the switchback ramp was 2/3 funded. This page from March 2012 says the switchback ramp at one end and the cantilevered connector at the other were 1/3 funded. (I guess that's a combined total, and the ramp portion is much farther ahead.)


Maybe there will be some news on Friday.


steven
2012-10-10 05:49:19

I'll be there Friday as a member of the Steel Valley Trail Council, which will maintain this section of trail. If you're interested in things like the progress and subsequent maintenance of the trail (and future celebratory events) consider joining the council. Website is steelvalleytrail.org and we meet monthly.


Steven is correct about the official alignment of the GAP. It follows the jail trail to the Point. ATA has been holding off on GAP signage for these portions of the trail until the Sandcastle section is complete. There are markers in the asphalt path though.


Mon Wharf is very much still under consideration and needs funding. Unlike the heady days of enhancements and TEA funds, the money to build stuff like this just isn't laying around (not to imply that it every really was). If you want these projects built fast, make that known to your representatives. The squeaky wheel gets the money.


sarapgh2
2012-10-10 14:56:27

Recently some new biking trail singage has been posted on the Hot Metal Bridge (second ave side).

Notating trail directions, i was going to snap a pic last night, but i was a slacker.


2012-10-10 15:50:59

I'm pretty sure those are part of the city's signage plan. I've seen similar style around. Anyone know if that's correct?


sarapgh2
2012-10-10 15:53:48

I previously heard that Friends of the Riverfront was/is attempting to address the issue of signs/maps on the trail. Anyone know if this is true?


2012-10-10 16:05:46

There are signs to and from the Eliza Furnace trail and Point Park. Someone is doing it.


rsprake
2012-10-10 16:13:36

I think these are the signs you're discussing, they're good.

Location: north end of the Jail Trail, behind PNC, at Grant St.


In a most-perfect-world, they'd include "You are here" location info, and who to call in case of an emergency (which is different all along the trail).


They are good, and far far better than what transients had before.


vannever
2012-10-10 16:44:58

yup, those are the new ones.

same design as the ones on HMB.

i've alos seen them on the Smithfield st br too.


2012-10-10 16:59:22

In a most-perfect-world, they'd include "You are here" location info, and who to call in case of an emergency (which is different all along the trail).


Shouldn't you call 911 in case of emergency? It seems impractical if the first step in an emergency is "Remember the phone number printed on the last sign we passed and call it".


Or do you mean the sign should say who's responsible for maintaining that trail section?


steven
2012-10-10 18:00:34

Yup. Those are the ones. The routes are odd after Smithfield St but I suppose it is what it is until the switchback ramp is complete.


rsprake
2012-10-10 20:11:09

The same signs were used for the "don't ride on Penn Ave." project. Pretty nice, although I think they should have distances on them too. Better yet:






salty
2012-10-10 22:11:53

"who to call in case of an emergency"


I've called local police numbers and been told to call 911.


kordite
2012-10-11 11:23:57



dmtroyer
2012-10-11 16:45:27

hah. I am bad at reading.


dmtroyer
2012-10-11 16:47:05

so... what did you think it said...


imakwik1
2012-10-11 16:56:42

I thought the tweet from this afternoon was new news, but it looks like the news is at least a couple days old given the age of this thread.


dmtroyer
2012-10-11 17:20:01

Re the "who to call" signage. 911 isn't universal. In fact, on the Montour Trail Airport connector, they'd prefer you didn't call 911, and their signs look like the one below:



Also, I noticed new signs on the Hot Metal Bridge today, directed people to the Hazelwood Trail and to downtown. Progress!


vannever
2012-10-11 21:39:54

I'm still dubious. Have they worked out the issues with the scrap yard?


sgtjonson
2012-10-11 22:12:56

Yes, as far as I know, they're all done negotiating, now they're building. Today's PG article quotes ATA president Linda McKenna Boxx saying



developers have what she called "a drop-dead deadline" of April 15 to finish.


They've had "goals" before that have come and gone, but I think this is the first "drop-dead deadline". (I assume all that death helps encourage the contractors to speedily complete the project.)


steven
2012-10-11 22:37:44

I guess my next question is, will there be access from Haysglen St? (currently where the ballast part ends, assuming you go through the Sandcastle gate, or continue on to 885 as I do)


sgtjonson
2012-10-12 01:42:26

i guess we'll find out tomorrow.


2012-10-12 02:02:53

I don't think they could prevent access from Haysglen even if they wanted to. The trail will cross Haysglen, same as at any road crossing.


steven
2012-10-12 03:20:14

holy cow...3.4m for this section? I know there is a lot involved, but wow.


2012-10-12 13:36:42

considering this is one of the most complicated sections...for shits and giggles, the most recent 17 miles of the Mon-Fayette Expressway cost $882M


erok
2012-10-12 14:50:04

$3.4 million? Most of us would have settled for a few "Share the road" signs and sharrows markings through the parking lot.


kordite
2012-10-15 19:27:47

i'm guessing that a lot of this money was for the keystone metals section, which is much more complicated than the sandcastle part.


erok
2012-10-15 19:35:30

A lot of it's not what we would settle for, but what the property owners were willing to live with. They wanted fences and walls, apparently not trusting that trail users would avoid playing on the train tracks, or with the scrap metal and heavy equipment, or weaving among the cars in Sandcastle's parking lot.


Today workers were widening the sidewalk in front of Costco into a bike trail. Looks like a little bit is done already, and they're continuing east.


steven
2012-10-15 22:28:21
Pretty huge if it happens, and they made it sound pretty likely. It's not convenient or welcoming at all to a new rider trying to get to point state park now and this would change all that, with a major domino effect because of the linkage over to the North shore and back along the Allegheny. It might open a lot of minds once the network for the "interested but concerned" starts connecting better and more of them ride. I'd go so far as to say that this is more deserving, by geography, of the moniker "point made" (the maneuver with the sidewalk leading up to Ft. Pitt bridge and crossing the rivers twice is unpleasant and I don't think too many people do it). And it may be more even more important than the segment just completed overall because it has the potential to engage more "interested but concerned" riders. Please, please let these projects move along quickly.
byogman
2013-06-14 18:33:55