BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

The only other thing you could do is have a helmet camera so you could prove it.

Don't forget that people get really flustered when their route changes due to such things as school busses. Don't need to be hit because someone is gonna be 5 minutes late getting home.

I would also consider contacting the bus company or school district. I don't think either one would want a dangerous driver transporting their kids. The driver could be new and in a probationary period too, so it might be taken more seriously than usual.

definitely follow up with the police, the district and the bus company.

I did send a polite e-mail to the Superintendent of South Fayette Schools, since the drivers are school district employees. No response yet from the police or the district.

I don't want to stereotype, so I won't rule out this being a new driver, but the driver is probably in his 60's. I expect he is more "old-school" than newbie. We'll see.

Sounds like a recently unemployed PAT driver to me.

Response from the Superintendent:

I have copied our transportation department on this matter so that our Director, Donna Harshman, may question the driver of Bus Number 36. Additionally, I have copied our local police so they are aware that we are investigating the matter as well.

South Fayette takes bus safety and transportation very seriously.

We are sorry that you experienced difficulty this morning.

I've only had great experiences from the school busses in my area (Penn Hills, Plum, Gateway). I'm inclined to see this as a total anomaly, maybe even he didn't realize how wide his bus was so he thought he was farther away.

School bus drivers, by necessity, are a unique and typically awesome breed. They sheppard the dearest (and most ill-behaved) members of society in the most dangerous environment in our society, daily. And in return they get crap from kids, crap from parents, crap for pay, and stereotyped in the most unflattering manner.

Not defending any intentional malicious acts, just totally astonished at what you experienced. Glad you both weatherd it without physical harm. Hope it never happens again.

Busses of the number 36 tend to knock things over in our fair city.

sorry...bad Steeler joke. Couldn't resist.

+1 for RoadKillen...I like that.

ejwme, normally I would agree with you about school bus drivers...not Port Authority drivers, but school bus drivers. However, two things that convince me that this was no accident. First, he veered the bus towards me. If he didn't realize how wide it was, he would have kept going on the same line he was on. But he turned towards me. I suspect he know EXACTLY how wide the bus is. Second, the sarcastic smile and wave on the way back from the school. If I was carrying a weapon, it would have discharged.

awe, man. sounds like a bad egg. I hate when bad eggs remove my ability to assume the best and keep my world rosey. I found my frustration levels in traffic dropped significantly when I assumed that everybody just had burnt out turn signals and were on their way to the mechanic. But swerving... that's difficult.

Very glad you seem to be getting a good response from the Powers That Be... Probably for the same reasons that this guy is a freakish anomaly and not the norm.

(I think if PAT treated complaints the way your school district has treated yours, PAT drivers might be as lovely to share the road with as every OTHER school bus driver is. really sad.)

this driver seems sick and sadistic

So the good feeling from the school district was completely offset by the way-too-typical response from the Chief of Police. Essentially, he said that he's known the district drivers for 35 years and doesn't believe there was intent. (Even though, by his own admission, he had talked to neither his officer, or the driver, about the incident.) He also closed the e-mail by saying that I should not have been on the road in the first place.

I'm feeling the urge for a little civil obediance.

You shouldn’t have been on the road in the first place? His email actually uses those words? I’ll gladly participate in a group delivery of a copy of the PA vehicle code to his office if you feel so inclined.

He also closed the e-mail by saying that I should not have been on the road in the first place.

!!!

Wow, ignorance of the law coming from the top.

I'm not surprised by the police chief's response. A number of officers in the South Fayette/McDonald/Cecil area are openly hostile toward cyclists.

"Do not feel you should be riding on this road during school rush hours" That was how he answered my statement that I did not feel safe due to the actions of the bus driver.

I was thinking about a ride, two abreast, up the hill during school rush hour. Maybe with a law-abiding citizen in a following car.

He received his pdf copy of PA Consolidated Statute 75, Chapter 35 last night.

http://www.police.south-fayette.pa.us/

South Fayette Police Dept Mission Statement:

This department constitutes an organization whose very existence is justified solely on the basis of community service. We shall consider it our duty and privilege, not only to protect our citizens from the criminal, but also to protect and defend the rights of all citizens guaranteed under our structure of government.

The primary and foremost function of this department is to safeguard the lives and protect the property of all persons within the boundaries of the Township of South Fayette. This department is responsible for the preservation of public peace, the enforcement of laws, statutes and ordinances of the United States, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the Township of South Fayette.

Interestingly enough, the officer who took my information at the school, and called me back today, was very understanding and supportive. He talked about the difficulty of proving intent, but promised immediate action if I have any other issues.

Wow, I hope you kept the name of the good cop, so you can just call him directly in the future. Real sorry to hear about your experience. I was aggressively & intentionally buzzed by a PAT driver a few months ago and it was terrifying.

He gave me his full name, badge number, and direct phone line. He rides as well, and was about as supportive as he could be.

^This.

The more people we put on bicycles, and the more often we do so, the more we open the eyes of people who care about bicycles.

ajbooth, it seems like everything you've done so far is exactly right, so kudos. Just the fact that you found a sympathetic cop is exceptional. I would say let things simmer a bit, see what comes from your contact with the school super, I'm sure things are very busy for the schools right now, so I would not assume a time lag is an affront to your inquiry. But if there is not a response in a week, politely check in again, ask if the issue has been investigated, don't let it drop. Accept that it is unlikely that this driver will get the full outcome you might like, but even if, behind the scenes he is called into a supervisors office, that will send a message. Stay constructive. I well know this can be difficult, take deep breaths. If you talk to someone, it wouldn't hurt to throw in at some point a comment to the effect of "how do we know this person won't do this to a child?". Look for the gut shot.

Oh, and continue to stress that a number of other buses passed without a problem, that it was specifically that driver. And continue to use terms like "buzzed me" and veered, and that it was obviously agressive, don't clean up the terminology, those are strong words.

Many people, including me, ride out that way, it's a nice area. Insofar as you can stay comfortable, keep on riding, don't let the aholes win, and stay safe.

that's some good advice

this is unacceptable behavior by a law enforcement official. to openly indicate that it's the victim's fault should at least cause him to fear the loss of his job. what recourse do we have?

we should get the chief a bike, present it to him on camera and request he go for a ride with us.

a flock ride, perhaps?

Police Chief don't like it

Flock the Fayette

Flock the Fayette

(rock the casbah)

A flock ride on Old Oakdale Road at 6:55 AM on a weekday would cause a back up of buses and cars, none of whom would arrive at the school complex in time...not that I would ever suggest such a thing.

Latest from the Superintendent of Schools:

It is our policy not to discuss personnel matters. Please be assured that the District and our Transportation Director have addressed the matter appropriately with our driver. We do conduct regular safety meetings and do provide staff development as necessary.

Please be careful as you and others use roads such as Old Oakdale to cycle. The road does not have shoulders and vision, particularly on bends and dips, is sometimes difficult. The goal is for everyone to be safe.

There are certain times of the day when our busses use the road more heavily and we also have many parents and students drivers on Old Oakdale as well. Everyone needs to be cautious and respectful of each other. The local police do an outstanding job enforcing the speed limit and traffic not only during these time, but at all times.

Again, safety for all is the goal.

I had suggested that the district needed to remind their drivers about the rights of cyclists, and about proper procedure for overtaking a bicycle on a roadway. This was the response.

I'm somewhat encouraged that is was called a personnel matter. Between being questioned by the police, and addressed by the school district safety manager, I'm sure my bus driver buddy had a pretty crappy week.

Wow, sorry to hear about this. I hope they gave that dude a good talking to.

"If I was carrying a weapon, it would have discharged."

Uh, what? When would you have done this, when the bus driver was veering towards you?

How big was this hill? Wouldn't it appear that the bus driver was veering towards you all the time if he was turning while going up the hill depending on which way it was bending.

I think a bus and a hill present a few extra difficulties. Ideally, he would have slowed down and waited to pass you once off the hill. It's hard to pass far into the other lane because of the risk of somebody flying down the hill in the opposite direction. If the bus slows down too much, it would be a total PITA to start it back up and regain its speed. (Notice how slow PAT buses crawl up hills around hill)

Outside of that, how do you tell a genuine smile and wave from a fake one? Maybe he was amazed you got up the hill. Maybe he thought you looked goofy. Maybe he just thought you were cool. The possibilities are endless.

If your friend already called out to the bus and you already felt he intentionally veered towards you, is it not possible that your interpretation of what he was trying to communicate was already biased?

My interpretation of what a driver is trying to communicate is based mainly on how they drive. Since this driver had already buzzed two cyclists, it's seems fair for one of those cyclists to interpret a later communication/smile/whatever in light of that earlier aggressive conduct. If that's a bias, then it doesn't seem like an improper one.

Thanks Pierce...I guess I was just being paranoid. I appreciate you clearing things up for me.

Unlike yourself, maybe the 65 year old bus driver doesn't communicate with sarcasm. I agree with your assessment that the bus driver knew exactly how close he was to you and knew that if you held your line he wasn't going to hit you. If that made you feel uncomfortable, as I previously said, maybe communicating that would have been more effective.

I get passed by 18 wheelers, Port Authority busses, dump trucks, etc five times a day going up a hill. I've never come to the conclusion that they have some sinister intent. They're just trying to get where they're going, same as me

Really Peirce? Since you've never had this problem, neither can anyone else?

http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/driver-who-purposely-buzzed-my-bike-close#post-80851

Driver's do this kind of stuff all the time, the fact that this on was in a school bus doesn't change that fact.

Come on dude, direct your attitude somewhere else.

I've been hit by a bus Eric and literally run off the road by a car. I'm not saying what did or didn't happen, I'm allowing the possibility that something other than what booth believes happened.

Here's what we know according to booth: The bus driver passed by a couple of cyclists very closely. He was turning towards booth. He smiled and waved at booth.

And what conclusion do we draw from those events?

"this driver seems sick and sadistic"

"I don't think either one would want a dangerous driver transporting their kids."

"Not defending any intentional malicious acts, just totally astonished at what you experienced."

you conveniently left this out of your cliff notes version

We were about 40 feet apart, on a curve, on a hill, and were passed by 5 or 6 buses with no incident.

Agreed. I feel we're generally passed by cars all the time fairly safely, but every once in a while (or more often than that) somebody gets too close.

But I would attribute that to him not recognizing that that makes cyclists feel anxious and in danger, not that he's malicious. I don't know, it's just hard for me to get into that mindset of saying "hey, I'm going to drive really close to these cyclists just to scare them"

We still know nothing about the guy besides what I previously listed. At least one person who has known him for 35 years didn't think the guy was that kind of person. So it's hard for me to say "slam dunk, maliciously bus driver" which it seems like everybody else is comfortable doing.

Ok, no one is saying the dude was Pol Pot

so you post an alternate and less sinister explanation of the events and ajbooth thanks you for your perspective. why keep harping on the issue? biting my tongue, hard.

I'm curious Pierce...how do you tell sarcasm from genuine appreciation? Maybe I was amazed you figured it out. Maybe I thought you were goofy. Maybe I just thought you were cool. The possibilities are endless.

Tabby, I'm responding to people's responses. What you call harping I call engaging in a dialogue

Maybe I was assuming Booth was being sarcastic, after questioning his assuming the bus driver was being sarcastic. Ellipses after my name aren't usually for agreement. Plus, he'd already called the bus driver is "buddy" (sarcasm?) and said he would have shot the guy if he had a weapon on him, so I can't quite judge what he's actually trying to express

Chinston, did you see the quotations I quoted from this thread three posts ago? "Sick, sadistic, malicious" How does that compare to Pol Pot?

By the way, I was there, and you were not. I have no doubt...absolutely none...that this driver was malicious. His mirror passed within one foot of my helmet. He buzzed my friend, then steered further towards the edge of the road to buzz me. Then laughed and waved.

A question for you, Pierce...if he did not do it intentionally,then why, minutes later, did he smile and wave at me on the way back down the hill? If it was truly a case of the driver not recognizing what would make me uncomfortable, then he must not have thought he did anything wrong, or that anything was unusual. Then why slow down the bus and smile and wave at me? Do you really think he was just being friendly?

As for "At least one person who has known him for 35 years didn't think the guy was that kind of person", I should point out that the police chief was generalizing when he said that he had known the drivers for 35 years...when he sent that e-mail, he did not even know which driver it was, nor had he talked to the investigating officer.