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Truck with logo of blond woman sought by Pgh Police

You guys are an observant lot. The pedestrian that was killed in the Strip this morning was hit by three vehicles. One who hit her and knocked her into the oncoming lane; one who hit her there, and then a third vehicle. The police are looking for that second vehicle. They aren't even certain the driver knew they hit anything....


The truck is a large box truck, possibly with a refrigeration unit. The truck had a logo on the back of a blond haired woman wearing a white shirt.


This truck was in the Strip, at 14th Street, at about 7 this morning.


Anyone think this truck or this logo sounds familiar? If so, you should probably 311 it, or call PPD.


swalfoort
2012-12-11 18:44:09

I straightened out the image, more or less, and adjusted the contrast a little. I still can't quite make out the text on the side of the truck but maybe someone else will be able to.



jonawebb
2012-12-11 19:24:46

the company is flora pack. i rather figured out the flora part, and thought it was pac- something, but the post gazette article was updated before i found the company's website.


hiddenvariable
2012-12-11 19:27:18

If it ain't flowers it's probably produce.


sloaps
2012-12-11 19:30:29

The company was already identified in the PG article...


More interesting:


"Pittsburgh police Assistant Chief Regina McDonald said since June 18, three uniformed police officers patrol three Strip District locations: Smallman and 15th streets, Penn Avenue and 15th Street and Penn Avenue and 14th Street between 7:30 and 9:30 a.m. and again between 4 and 7 p.m.


The officers are paid for by downtown-based Education Management Corporation.


Spokeswoman Jacqueline Muller said between seven and nine of the company's online higher education employees in the Strip have been hit by cars in that area.


"We put off-duty officers at the crosswalks to ensure the safety of our employees given the history of accidents in that vicinity," she said."


sgtjonson
2012-12-11 19:51:56

Wow, they must have updates it just seconds after I posted the inquiry here....


Glad they found the company. The driver can't be too hard to find then....


swalfoort
2012-12-11 20:13:07

yeah, i was pretty sure someone would recognize the logo or be able to make out the company name enough. i was pretty close myself, so it was clear that the collective brainpower of all the people who looked at that image would find the answer. so i checked the article again (probably) about 20 minutes after i read your post, and there it was. they had already tried to contact the driver.


hiddenvariable
2012-12-11 20:24:36

Too fast... I was hoping our collective intelligence would crack the case. Though, to be fair, it doesn't sound like it was the truck driver's fault.

It's kind of amazing that on a street where people get hit MULTIPLE TIMES PER YEAR the response is to just put out some cops.


jonawebb
2012-12-11 20:40:22

What's worse is that it's "between seven and nine of the company's online higher education employees." Those numbers imply that there are a lot of people who are not employees having issues on that street. And that the employee hardest hit by this seeming carnage have to pay extra to get the police to do something about it is unbelievable.


kordite
2012-12-11 20:44:28

Drivers can do a better job of paying attention to when cars in oncoming traffic are stopped at crosswalks. That's a clue to stop, too, even if you don't see the pedestrian right away. Not sure if the first vehicle had stopped yet when the truck hit the victim. This is such an awful story, it makes me sick. This is a major problem along S Braddock Ave, where I live. People have been killed, crosswalks and signage installed, and yet business as usual with the egregious driving.


pseudacris
2012-12-11 20:47:44

The conflicting stories on the news are confusing, is this a hit and run or did the first car knock the pedestrian under the truck and the driver didn't know


marvelousm3
2012-12-11 20:54:01

Incredible. I've seen those officers working the 15th street intersection, and wondered why...


Regardless of who hit her first, for multiple moving vehicles to strike this woman at a crosswalk none had her well being in mind.


sloaps
2012-12-11 21:23:55

@Kordite - it appears that the woman who was killed DID NOT work for the company that had hired the police pedestrian aides due to incidents involving their employees, so your point is a very good one.


swalfoort
2012-12-11 21:28:23

I think Lyle (who used to post here a lot) works for Education Management Corporation. I'm just a little angry that a company would have to pay to have police do their jobs.


People would pay attention to crosswalks if there were a few tickets given for not. Of course, not ALL the drivers, but it would make a difference.


At the crosswalk at Bates and Semple, I've stood with one foot in the crosswalk, obviously waiting to cross, and had a police car be one of the vehicles that illegally failed to stop.


mick
2012-12-11 22:16:19

Mick, the officers paid by EDMC are off-duty, like the officers who work door at various Carson Street bars. I've seen those guys, they're basically just crossing guards in a different uniform.


As for cruisers failing to stop, come up to Bellefield Ave and you'll not only see buses and police vehicles vastly exceeding the speed limit, failing to yield, and all sorts of other fun, but an array of school district PD trucks double-parked outside their building. Makes crossing double-fun, lemmetellya.


Marcel, the stories I've seen said the truck was the second to hit her--she was hit by the first car hard enough to knock her into the other lane, then run over by the truck, and finally hit by an SUV. The first and last vehicles stopped, but police think the truck driver may not even have known he'd hit someone.


According to WTAE, Flora Pack has confirmed that they had a driver in the area around that time, and the truck involved has been found and impounded---in Erie.


epanastrophe
2012-12-11 22:32:29

It's an indictment of the abdictation of civic responsibility that there's a known dangerous situation and local government does nothing about it. A local business engages the issue only because their bottom line is affected by loss of knowledge-workers that can't be easily replaced by a plug-in replacement.


The cops will stand out there for off-budget extra money. Nobody displaces the status quo because they don't wont to disturb the rice bowl. Money money money.


This poor woman's body ends up playing pinball in the roadway. It's uncivilized, barbaric, more 1830 than 2012 was supposed to be.


Also, I was going to start this by saying, Kordite is absolutely right, but I pretty find that Kordite is consistently right and I hate to be repetitive. My compliments to Kordite.


vannever
2012-12-11 23:03:23

@ buffalo buffalo Mick, the officers paid by EDMC are off-duty,



Why don't the ON-duty officers serve and protect?


If more than half of the people at a company near there has been hit by cars in that intersection, don't you suppose the police might drop the donuts and hang out on the street a bit?


mick
2012-12-12 01:11:15

@ buffalo buffalo Mick, the officers paid by EDMC are off-duty,



Why don't the ON-duty officers serve and protect?


If more than half of the people at a company near there has been hit by cars in that intersection, don't you suppose the police might drop the donuts and hang out on the street a bit?


mick
2012-12-12 01:11:20

Hm, I am with Kordite, Vannevar, and Mick. Police/city should do something. In RR business victims or families often sue companies if companies failed to provide safe crossing (even there were special devices installed). Not successfully every time, but ... Probably family could sue police/city for not providing safe enough crossing or for not enforcing law?


2012-12-12 03:02:16

It's very difficult to beat City Hall in a legal dispute. In general, in any contest, the House (the establishment) wins - they've got the momentum, the money, and the apparatchiks who wrote the rules and sycophants currying favor on their side.


If it's a state road, there's the issue of sovereign immunity. It's awful hard to prove a trend of malfeasance.


The city says, Hey there was only a risk during rush hour and the local businesses were providing safety at no cost to the taxpayer, win-win in these tough economic times.


Then you get into the outsourcing of government, and we'll see more of that I think with special business-govt zones like the southside just enacted - very fuzzy accountability.


The city has an insurance carrier, they've figured the cost of a fatality or two every few years as the cost of doing business, nothing personal. The grieving family isn't going to sustain a long, repeated multi-appeal process.


Of course, the police and the public safety folks work for the mayor, an elected official, and there's a mayoral campaign shaping up right now.


Dead bicyclists. Slaughtered pedestrians. Hit and runs. Remarkably, we're Bronze-Friendly, didn't you hear? You'd think somebody wanting to get the public's attention would point out the hypocrisy.


There is no call for reform. No politician will stake out the high ground and risk offending the political and financial power centers.


There's a convergence of corrupt self-interests, of going along to get along, and nobody rocks the boat.


If it's your sister that gets killed, man that sucks, have a Ride of Silence and they let you put up a ghost bike.


I think about that woman's body getting slammed between opposite direction cars and that is a savage and violent death. And those poor drivers in cars two and three are victims too, really, and they're staring into their coffee wondering how do they move on.


It's a systemic fail. It's not one pedestrian, one driver, one cop; it's the system and the economic design of the city. Sorry to rant.


Here we go steelers, here we go...


vannever
2012-12-12 04:21:39

It seems like trashing the police and all the drivers is the current theme, but does anybody truly know the exact circumstances under which this woman unfortunately died? I see people jay-walking EVERYWHERE I GO in this town.


Pedestrians have the right of way, but that doesn't do you much good when you're bouncing off of someone's grill. And lest I forget, I also cyclists breaking the rules, including me. So I think we can probably all learn something from this, besides how evil the cops and city hall are.


Tomorrow may be the day I get nailed but one thing's for sure, it won't be because I didn't do a safety check. Crossing a busy street during peak traffic hours demands a little vigilance, and I wouldn't doubt for a nanosecond that a 53 y/o woman who is very used to working down there, would step out into the street in front of a vehicle. it happens all the time.


So while it's sad that a person was killed, don't compound the negatives by rushing to point a sanctimonious finger and start blaming people for something you don't even fully know about.


In closing, I'm not saying this to rile anyone up. If the shoe fits, by all means wear the damn thing but if not, simply disregard.


2012-12-12 04:36:23

When a bicyclist dies, and "the public" (actually, the miniscule subset that posts their comments on the newspaper websites) says "hey I see them bicyclists they break the rules all the times this doesn't surprise me", I tend to think gosh I don't see how they connect their anecdote to this event


So now a pedestrian gets killed. Is a bicyclist really going to say, I see those 53-year-old downtown women pedestrians all the time, they're asking for it, I don't doubt it for a nanosecond?


wow.

(I gave up conflict on the internet for Advent)


vannever
2012-12-12 04:44:02

she was in a crosswalk. no one stops for crosswalks in this fucking town and people routinely drive 50mph+ up and down liberty making it very hard to judge if its ever safe to cross all four lanes. i used to nearly get hit daily 15 blocks away. also in a crosswalk, and checking both ways repeatedly. for four years. most of my coworkers went through the same thing daily as well. we tried like hell to get a signal, but even after at least one fatality, several near fatalities, almost monthly major car on car crashes and more than a couple car on bike crashes, the city decided it wasnt needed.


this stretch of road has had repeated car on pedestrian fatalities and nothing has ever been done about speed enforcement or modifying the obviously deficient pedestrian infrastructure.


cburch
2012-12-12 04:45:21

Val, was that supposed to be satirizing the typical PG commenters or were you being serious?


salty
2012-12-12 05:03:07

I'm sick of it too. The other night I punched the rear window of a SUV that nearly ran me over when was crossing 5th, and even that didn't get the asswipe to stop. I had the right of way, they were turning right. It happens damn near every time you cross the street. Drivers likely don't even know the right of way rules and if they do they're in too big of a hurry to follow them.


Start impounding cars and maybe people will start to pay attention. I don't mean to wait until they hit someone, do it as soon as they show their disregard for basic traffic safety.


salty
2012-12-12 05:09:24

From a basic logic perspective, I think anyone making such a comment would connect their anecdote, by reviewing past experience and recalling reckless behavior. And thusly, the anecdote.


Getting upset about someone being killed doesn't bring them back, it doesn't mean the cops did it, it doesn't mean it's a covert war on pedestrians by city hall. But gosh, people sure don't waste any time shit-talking every possible person there, even when all they know is what was reported in the paper. Let me say again: gosh.


Crosswalks are painted lines, not walls. And anyone who behaves like they are is in for certain disappointment, or like this unfortunate woman, will be scheduled for the big Dirt Nap. Natural selection is an ongoing process; it never sleeps.


So really, histrionic behavior in regard to this scenario accomplishes nothing. You can get all huffy if you want, but she's still dead. And while I didn't say she deserved to die or anything like that, I AM saying that people all around this city step out in front of cars (and bicyclists!) all the time. Don't doubt it, even for a nanosecond!


2012-12-12 05:14:32

salty, you can believe I meant every word. And I like your technique of punching windows, as long as you're ready for the driver to emerge. I wear those gloves with the armored knuckles, just so I don't hurt my hand.


2012-12-12 05:16:24

Yeah, you're right, its better to blame the victim and pretend like there's no problem. Stupid pedestrians, just eliminate them from the gene pool so they don't have stupid pedestrian kids too. I mean, Ms. Kollar perhaps only crossed that street safely 13,000 times in the 26 years she worked there so the most logical conclusion is she was an oblivious idiot with a death wish. Good riddance, they should give the SUV driver a medal for teaching her a lesson.


salty
2012-12-12 07:28:37

I actually drove down there on during Monday's morning rush hour and visiblity really, really sucks.


I ALWAYS stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, and I realized, driving like a granny, that I hadn't seen someone on the crosswalk on the opposing traffic side from me.


I also run through there on occasion in reflective gear, and I've had a couple of close calls.


The cops help, but I was there earlier than the cops on Monday. Otherwise, the lighting is bad, the sight lines are bad, the typical traffic speed is bad, and the width of the road/parked cars/double parked trucks are bad. I find the lighting especially problematic as most pedestrians going to work aren't wearing high-visibility clothing (and shouldn't have to).


Not saying the driver(s) escape culpability. Just saying that it's a terrible situation on that road, and it really needs to be rethought.


pinky
2012-12-12 12:51:07

Pinky, thanks for weighing in with some actual, usable information. I think a few of you others (Salty, for one) need to attend some group therapy, or maybe get that hysterectomy you've been saving up for. The outpouring of snippy, snide bitchiness is threatening to actually ruin yet another good thread.


In contrast, Pinky actually brought some Logical Perspective to the table. Anyone can read Pinky's post and walk away knowing something about the area and how the incident unfolded.


It;s not that I don't appreciate all the coolness exuded by the know-it-all crew, every place needs it self-designated experts and you all fit the bill nicely. Maybe I'll create a thread just for all the cool kids, so you can all write your useless drivel there and try to impress one another with your pithy, bitchy wit and tempers.


As for Salty and Vannevar, I never blamed anything on the poor lady that got herself dead. In fact I expressly voiced that she wasn't to blame. But obviously you're a couple of hometown heroes who are more concerned about drama and revving your man pleaser, than you are with any objective outlook.


Do yourselves a favor and try to get out of Pittsburgh more often, there's a whole world of people out there with different outlooks than yours. Sometimes their opinions even carry a shred of truth.


Until next time, keep up your pained, righteous indignation. Other Hipsters live for your bullshit!


2012-12-12 13:27:29

I'm not interested in serving as your example in a flame war.


pinky
2012-12-12 13:38:40

Too bad, I already used your commentary as an example. And if you're so snarky you can't take a compliment, then erase your paragraph just to be spiteful. That will teach me a lesson!


2012-12-12 13:53:38

@val if i may, i think you misunderstand. From this thread and the other one. Everyone you mentioned are really good people who care about the community and cycling. We may disagree on things but disagreements don't need to get personal. I know you have a good heart and have good intentions but come and ride with everyone more, you will see how the message board comes together like a family.i respect you andyour opinions just want you to see the good side of the ones you seem to disagree with


marvelousm3
2012-12-12 14:38:27

Go troll somewhere else, moron. Your misogynistic bullshit is completely unwelcome here and exposes you as a sad, ignorant individual. I actually felt a little bad for you when cburch called you out on the other thread but I see he's just a bit more perceptive than I am.


salty
2012-12-12 14:54:56

Back in the day I wrote a filter for the CMU opinion bboard that filtered out messages by name. You didn't like a person's opinions, all you had to do was add them to the filter, and they'd be gone (for you).

Things have moved on, and bboards, now message boards, aren't as programmable as they once were, but we can still achieve the same effect by simply ignoring posts from people who annoy us. Just skip over them. Don't reply. And the topic will fall to the bottom of the page and disappear.


jonawebb
2012-12-12 15:05:47

Oh that's really easy with greasemonkey/tampermonkey userscripts. Import jquery, then $('.threadauthor:contains(offendingusername)').closest('li').hide()


joeframbach
2012-12-12 15:29:57

I would rather that we all just hug it out, and just get along


marvelousm3
2012-12-12 15:32:23

@val, you sir/madam are an ass. Please be respectful or go away.


marko82
2012-12-12 15:40:21

Marvelous, thanks for some positive input. It's tiresome defending myself in the face of the petty bullshit generated by all the drama queens (Salty & and The Saltines), but if you read my posts you'll see I'm primarily concerned with talking about bikes and things related to same. Scan the board and read them all, if you don't believe me.


But like most people, when I'm subjected to petty little minds taking issue where there's no reason to, and attacking me, I defend myself. Salty, Cburch and Vannevar all three chose to be antagonistic and petty little people, over someone simply voicing their opinion on an issue. I never allow punks to get away with bullying behavior and I'm not going to start now, just to appease these measly few invertebrate cousins of the jellyfish.


My understanding of social media and message boards is that they're expressly FOR voicing an opinion, EVEN IF it's a different perspective than what someone else may hold. Furthermore (Salty) I paid my money to be a member, just like you, and I'll not be going anywhere. In fact I plan to frequent the message boards more often because, in contrast to this experience, I've actually met some very cool laid back types that just want to drink beer and ride bikes.


I understand perfectly that you're all a bunch of hometown homies and I'm just an outlander. I just don't care. I've lived all around the world and this is just one stop. I like to make new friends but when it comes down to it, I have more than I can keep up with now, and I won't lose any sleep over not being 'buddies' with a gang of needy whiners.


As for the whole misogyny thing, well, I guess I'm exposed now. You got me, Salty! I guess I'll have to get out of bed just a little earlier if I plan to fool the likes of your massive intellect. You and burch must be cut from the same, noble cloth. And if you don't have anything of substance to voice, then seize upon any possible topic and try to make it an issue, too. Maybe when you and the pep section get bored with remarks about being sexist, you can move on to something even more sensational; I'll leave that up to your fevered little minds.


So no, Marvelous, things don't need to get personal, they just happened to this time. And if you're truly capable of being objective, go back and read the posts, and then tell me who you think got the ball rolling.


Look, I've worked and lived with all kinds of nationalities, religions, etc. I've met all kinds of people who think they're mean, up close and personal. I'm not intimidated by a few smalltown losers who think they're super cool just because they're from mighty Pittsburgh.


The funny part is, I have been coming here/living here part-time for over two years now. And I have always had nothing but great things to say about this town and its people. And it's only when I voluntarily join the cycling 'community' and interact with it that I am subjected to this kind of behavior. Ironic, isn't it?


Salty, Vannevar and Burch, you guys keep trying to be the big fish in the small pond, keep puffing your chests out and acting tough. I'm not impressed. I've been places and done things you little girlies will only ever read about, and I've been insulted by far better than the likes of some Hipster wannabe biker punks and self-righteous tool bags, like you three weak sisters.


2012-12-12 15:41:26

Wow, it just won't stop.


edmonds59
2012-12-12 15:45:44

Good trolling doesn't require so many words. Grrrrrr I'm tuff! Moron.


cburch
2012-12-12 15:53:29

One of the first lessons taught to me in driver's ed (in Chicago) was to never, ever use courtesy signals or yield your right of way unexpectedly. This sounds harsh or selfish but it really helps to protect other road users. Think of the case where someone is turning left into a driveway with two or more lanes of opposing traffic. If a driver in one of the opposing lanes (lets say the left-most lane) stops to let the turning car proceed, most drivers would hit the gas and complete the turn without fully checking the other oncoming lanes. Often other cars won't stop just because one does in another lane. Why? Because that guy stopped in the left lane could be just some jerk trying to turn left without signaling and chances are you can't see the car in the opposing lane trying to turn left until it's too late.


Crosswalks pose a similar problem. Since cars are to yield to peds, they are obligated to come to a stop. If one driver stops, the ped may begin to enter the crosswalk without checking the other lanes. If other drivers don't know why the first car stopped and can't see the ped, bad things happen.


This is why signals are so important for crosswalks. A crosswalk on a busy road without a traffic control device (stop sign, or traffic light) is a deathtrap.


Of course I have no idea if this is relevant to what happened to this person, but I wouldn't be surprised if one person abided by the law and yielded while others didn't. Please, always check ALL lanes before proceeding when someone yields for you.


2012-12-12 16:04:33

And it's only when I voluntarily join the cycling 'community' and interact with it that I am subjected to this kind of behavior. Ironic, isn't it?


Funny, this messageboard has been around for 6 years and there's never been this level of personal attacks until you voluntarily joined the cycling 'community.' Ironic, isn't it?


erok
2012-12-12 16:06:24

Also, I heard that behind-the-wheel instruction is OPTIONAL in PA? Who ever thought that was a good idea?


2012-12-12 16:07:42

Plus the only "attack" was me calling you a jerk for a jerky reply. A JERK. HOLY SHIT!!!!! Everything else was just people disagreeing with you and you flipping out on them.


cburch
2012-12-12 16:10:47

Val, to get back to your original point? and away from the seemingly pointless character diatribe,


What does the fact that you've seen people jaywalking have to do with this lady who was in a crosswalk? You can't jaywalk in a cross walk that doesn't have a signal. Pedestrians have the right of way. Cars should be yielding to pedestrians in crosswalks.


So far as finger pointing goes, it seems pretty clear cut there. Both cars should have yielded to the lady.


From 1990 to 2006, 2,275 people were killed in motor vehicle/transport accidents in our county


During the same period of time, 1829 people were killed in homicides


Where do you think the majority of enforcement is?


(http://app2.health.state.pa.us/epiqms/Asp/ChooseDataset.asp)


Can we not be pissed off that even in the face of seemingly obvious statistics, the police still focus their resources in places that result in little societal payoff?


(The largest cause of death by far is cardiovascular disease, but I'm not sure what the police can do to help there)


sgtjonson
2012-12-12 16:24:01

I've noticed that Pittsburgh drivers seem completely oblivious to the crosswalk rules, BTW. In complete contrast to the situation in California, where I once put my foot into a crosswalk and had cars stop in both directions. Sorry. Pittsburghers will ease or even speed right on by someone halfway across. As everyone here knows, we need better enforcement.


jonawebb
2012-12-12 16:31:54

PTSD?


Val's whole rant made me lol. hilarious and sad.


stefb
2012-12-12 16:38:04

@Val all the people you named are really good people. I know them on and off this board and respect them. You are fighting against bullying by becoming a bully. You can fight and you can build. You have said sum awful things. I would like to see that energy put into building up your fellow cyclist. I don't care who said it first be the bigger person and stop. We can all be friends here and you will probably like us all


marvelousm3
2012-12-12 16:38:08

I just find it funny that he is so far off on everything. Dude has issues. I think he should come on a group ride sometime.


stefb
2012-12-12 16:41:40

"Until next time, keep up your pained, righteous indignation. Other Hipsters live for your bullshit!"

luuuuuuuuuulz! ironic self-loathing much? i bet val wears hornrims and waxes his moustache.


this shit is almost worthy of the banhammer


melange396
2012-12-12 16:50:33

Pierce, the ONLY thing I was pointing out was that secondary to the untimely demise of said pedestrian, a few people had all but convicted the police of eating donuts and watching in amusement as she was ran down like a dog in the street. City Hall, the economic rice bowl, blah, blah, blah...


I'm no cop and never will be, but my point was/is that UNLESS YOU WERE THERE, it's no good to hype a situation and generate blame for people who may well have not had anything AT ALL to do with her very unfortunate death. Hell, according to the story, the truck driver wasn't even aware that he'd hit someone.


I'm pretty sure that any responsible citizen who possibly could've prevented this from happening, would, if they were given the chance. I most certainly would've tackled her ass (and probably gotten sued for breaking her hip!) if I would've seen she was about to get killed. God bless her, she was probably thinking about getting to work on time, things she wanted to do for her family for Christmas, etc...


I have worked with Risk Management my entire life and one thing that's almost always true, is that the first 'report' is almost always wrong and/or incomplete. And just because something's in the newspaper doesn't make it correct. Trashing people and the way they do their job based on partial, incomplete knowledge is fundamentally flawed and unfair, to say the very least. I also would be willing to bet that all those lazy cops out there working to make some extra money, are just trying to support their families like the rest of us.


Ultimately police take their orders from City Hall, and don't just go out randomly deciding where and where not to enforce codes and statutes. I merely hold THE OPINION that it's not their fault she's dead. I've biked down there and it is indeed a hazardous place, for drivers/cyclists/pedestrians. Extra caution is called for, even when you have the law on your side; even when you're using the crosswalk.


I believe when things went South was when I mentioned casually that in the two years I've been driving/biking/living here, that I see pedestrians (and drivers, too) doing whatever they want, in terms of crossing the street, interacting with other travelers of all modes. I even admitted that I, too, have been guilty of jay-walking or otherwise breaking the rules, and so have many cyclists I've personally witnessed. Apparently having a different opinion is verboten on this board, as you can tell from the enthusiastic responses I've received.


I absolutely love the cycling scene in Pittsburgh but there are definitely cities that managed to plan better, build better infrastructure for cyclists, etc. But it also seems like this organization and its supporters have been a strong voice for advocacy and that's why I paid money to join; to support the effort.


I don't have any idea where the majority of enforcement is, to answer your question. But judging from other big cities I've lived in, it almost always seems to be busy protecting the things that bring money to the city. And that is logical, and right.


I wish the lady and others like her didn't die needlessly. I've worked on many people that got hurt in some sort of motor vehicle accident and the first thing that always ran through my mind was: damn it, this person didn't have to be here, today... this is so unnecessary.


So for all the mad, angry people out there, I still think had she used a bit more caution, she would've seen the car that killed her and stopped. But she didn't, and now she's dead. it doesn't mean it's right or that I'm happy about it, I'm just being realistic about it. And shit-talking the cops doesn't help, it doesn't even make you sound or look smart...


And Pierce, thanks for maintaining an objective viewpoint. Dissecting these incidents and learning from them is so much more useful than just assigning blame and being reactionary.


2012-12-12 17:15:53

Banhammer is my new imaginary band. Thx!


edmonds59
2012-12-12 17:19:31

"UNLESS YOU WERE THERE, it's no good to hype a situation and generate blame for people


[snip]


I still think had she used a bit more caution, she would've seen the car that killed her and stopped."


Cognitive dissonance ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED


chinston
2012-12-12 17:31:16

I'm learning to TL;DR Val's posts. And I'm a pretty tough cookie to get irritated by people posting here.


If you can't make a point in 100 words, you're either trying to say too much, or do not know how to communicate. And in the wise words of Tom Lehrer, "If you really don't know how to communicate, the least you can do is to shut up."


stuinmccandless
2012-12-12 17:43:33

Stu, sorry if you have stretch marks on your frontal lobe, after laboring through all those paragraphs. I suggest if you don't have time for all that reading, to stick to comics...


2012-12-12 17:48:38

This message board is a bastion of dropouts from the Scorched Earth School of Friendship.


[edit] meaning, for the most part -- regular posters are patient with each others' differences and able to ride and talk about bikes together despite them.


pseudacris
2012-12-12 18:01:53

@ chinston = fab.


edmonds59
2012-12-12 18:06:36

Val, when things went south was not when you expressed a contrary view. It was when people criticized your contrary views and you then started calling them names, saying they were engaged in "histrionic behavior", getting "huffy", that people here need to "attend some group therapy, or maybe get that hysterectomy", calling them the "know-it-all crew", etc.


It was only after you made all those personal attacks in multiple posts that some people started responding with personal attacks in kind.


Val, please stop your name-calling and stick to arguing your position, if you can.


steven
2012-12-12 18:12:38

I don't understand why the driver of the SUV that knocked her under the wheels of the box truck hasn't been charged. It seems to me the former is at least as culpable as the latter, probably more so.


salty
2012-12-12 20:35:49

i was wondering too, my guess is that the box truck driver fled and is canadian (ie out of towner that will be harder to follow up with). the article didn't say that the original driver wasn't charged or won't be charged. it just said that the box truck driver was charged.


erok
2012-12-12 20:45:19

Granted, not having actually been there, obviously I'm not equipped to make definitive statements on the tragedy. But inexorably constructing the mess in my head; if the box truck was close enough to hit the woman as she came off the grill of vehicle 1, vehicle 1 was probably trying to speed through the intersection and beat the box truck, thus not seeing the woman. With the box truck going straight on Smallman, the driver should have been able to see the whole unfolding clusterf*k, the woman, the freaking SUV TURNING LEFT IN FRONT OF HIM, and slowed. Driver 3 shouldn't have been so close to the box truck or going so fast as to not see a human body coming out from under a freaking box truck.

This woman was just a victim of a whole confluence of shit driving. In other words, a normal day.

My 2c, as they say.


edmonds59
2012-12-12 21:25:21

edmonds, that sounds pretty spot on.


Also, assuming Ms. Kollar was headed south, the box truck should have been stopping anyways to let her cross. Agreed about driver 1 potentially hurrying to get out in front of the box truck, and possibly also looking right for traffic coming from that direction. The fact he admittedly "heard and felt a hit to the front of vehicle" implies he didn't see her until after he hit her. But, I'm sure that will be treated as an excuse and not an admission of guilt.


salty
2012-12-12 23:32:29

I don't understand why the driver of the SUV that knocked her under the wheels of the box truck hasn't been charged.


It sounds like so far they only charged the truck driver with leaving the scene of an accident. Perhaps the police are all done investigating that aspect. He was there, accident happened, he left.


On the other hand, charges for the other drivers might need to wait for accident reconstruction. Were some of them speeding? On the phone? Any more useful video evidence from nearby cameras, or perhaps toxicology evidence?


There's no reason to charge them now if the police still have more to investigate. Once they know exactly what they can prove in court, they can pick the right charge.


steven
2012-12-12 23:59:52

When the accident reconstruction experts get done, does their report become public? I suspect likely not until the case goes to trial (assuming it does), so it might be a while. I'm just curious; I don't know.


stuinmccandless
2012-12-13 01:04:15

If the truck driver is a foreign national and crossed the border, would he have to be extradited to participate in the process? If that's the case (if) then charging him makes great sense. I suppose they deal with this a lot in Buffalo, etc.


vannever
2012-12-13 01:14:29

It continues to amaze me that these horrific events are treated for the most part like unavoidable acts of nature. Contrary to the reporting, autonomous vehicles didn't run over and kill this poor woman--drivers did!


I see people breaking laws all the time, regardless of their chosen mode of transportation--that's neither here nor there. The fact is, the onus is on the people wielding mobile, one-ton weapons to slow the fuck down and maintain control of their machinery. That means observing conditions and giving themselves time to react to the unexpected so they can avoid killing people. In heavily trafficked urban areas? Double- or triple-Slow-The-Fuck-Down.


2012-12-13 01:39:52

But people are in suuuuuccchhh a hurry and they are so important! How dare they be expected to obey laws! The laws and the safety of others will slow them down, and they don't have to slow down because 'Mercia and everyone else does it and everyone needs to get everywhere as soon as possible.


But seriously, people need to relax and stop stressing and think about other people for once. There is a lot that needs to change, and I am not just talking about law enforcement. People need to learn to be nicer and care about each other. They need better education. They also need more time off of work. Lack of time to relax contributes to stress and bad behavior sometimes.


stefb
2012-12-13 10:30:03

One last thing occurred to me in tweezing apart the whole incident - if vehicle 1 was making a left turn from 14th on to Smallman, it's likely that they were using 14th as a shortcut to the 10th street bypass to avoid the lights at Liberty and 11th. Again, the "rush" mentality contributing to the death. Left turns from 14th should be disallowed, or it should be made one way, something. Cutting through 14th for that move should be eliminated.

Last evening I had to drive from S. Side to Friendship at 6:30+-, which I almost never do. The experience was a 1/2 hr of the most horrible driving I have almost ever seen. Drivers in this city suck ass. Where the FFFF are the police?


edmonds59
2012-12-13 11:48:27



vannever
2012-12-13 12:45:37

@Pierce "You can't jaywalk in a cross walk that doesn't have a signal. "


On top of that -- it's25 mph road. if there is no snow or/and ice car should be able to stop instantly. And yes, both cars should stop.


"(The largest cause of death by far is cardiovascular disease, but I'm not sure what the police can do to help there)"

May be enforce a little bit more so pedestrians and bicyclist would not be afraid to walk/bike?


2012-12-13 23:42:44

if the person who originally hit this woman is not charged with manslaughter then this situation is fucked. i'm not saying the box truck driver is innocent, but seriously there are lots of situations where when driving a big vehicle like that you just can't see everything, and you concentrate on what is in front of you. the driver could have been being completely reasonable and had this woman thrown under his tire and not even seen her. the person who made a left turn to beat a box truck and wasn't paying attention to human beings walking on the road needs a reality check in solitary confinement for a couple years.


if it turns out the box truck we being negligent, same goes for him. I can say that when i got hit in the suburbs in a very similar situation i go thrown about 15 feet perpendicular to the direction of the car that hit me, so this woman could have only had 3 steps off the curb and still ended up being thrown under that box truck in the other lane... when the box truck had to make the decision to either stop at the crosswalk or not the pedestrian could have not even been to the curb yet.


imakwik1
2012-12-14 15:03:26

There was a pedestrian hit and killed in Greensburg this week too. Interesting that the news reports that "since the motor vehicle operator had the green light, no charges were filed against the driver." I thought PA had a mandatory yield to pedestrian law. If a pedestrian steps out in the roadway, the vehicle operator is obligated to stop.


Was there another pedestrian accident this week too? In Butler County, or Washington County? I thought I remembered seeing news of a pedestrian accident on three consecutive days.


swalfoort
2012-12-14 15:16:14

I think it's basically impossible to solve this problem by trying to get people to more cautious and considerate. I like edmonds59's approach: identify the specific situations and behaviors that are leading to accidents and change the infrastructure to prevent them.


People drive like assholes all over the place, yet there seem to be certain locations that are most dangerous, like this stretch of the Strip. Although the immediate fault in this case is (most likely) the careless drivers, the real problem is that the City has failed to put adequate controls in an area with high car traffic AND high pedestrian traffic. The fact that there are basically no traffic lights to help people get from the parking lots to the offices on the other side of Smallman and Penn is crazy.


willb
2012-12-14 15:17:47

While I very much agree with the need for infrastructure, the fact is that people in other states like California are a lot more respectful of pedestrians rights, and that must at least in part be the result of enforcement. Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh need to improve in both areas.


jonawebb
2012-12-14 15:22:28

I think the real truth is that there are a bunch of self-centered jagoffs in pittsburgh who can't comprehend the fact that ±2 seconds on their commute isn't that big of a deal. no amount of infrastructure or enforcement is going to change the greater mental landscape about pedestrians in the city, but better advocacy might. this is why bike pgh exists, and it's already done a ton to make it better.


imakwik1
2012-12-14 15:33:38

I thought PA had a mandatory yield to pedestrian law. If a pedestrian steps out in the roadway, the vehicle operator is obligated to stop.


Only "when traffic-control signals are not in place or not in operation" (75 PaCS § 3542). Otherwise, it's unclear; as far as I can tell (IANAL,TINLA), it's up to the local government: "Local authorities by ordinance may require pedestrians to obey traffic and pedestrian-control signals" (§ 3541(b)).


epanastrophe
2012-12-14 15:57:13

Stu i really like the blog post.


vannever
2012-12-14 16:32:03

I remember being taught in drivers' training lo those many years ago that a green light wasn't an automatic "go"--it's a "go as long as it's safe to proceed."


2012-12-14 16:35:12

^ding ding ding^


same reason i lose it when people treat right on red as a green arrow. of all the cities ive driven or riden in pittsburgh has by far the dumbest drivers. not sure ill ever adjust to that, no matter how long i live here.


cburch
2012-12-14 16:51:53

Last night while traveling inbound on the Parkway West in congestion, I was trying to merge left and get out of an "exit only" off ramp. A Big white SUV passed me on the right in the emergency lane, zigged left a few car lengths ahead of me and nosed into a spot he/she must've seen given the extra height of the vehicle.


***I know I'm just adding on to the heaps of venting about vehicular entitlement***


The first thing I was taught when pursuing my driving license was "driving is a privilege, not a right."


pseudacris
2012-12-14 17:14:02

Has Bike-Pgh ever conducted, supported or even attended any sort of event in support of the PGH Police? Maybe a (warm weather) carwash event (for donations) for Motorists, just to show'em some love and maybe hand out some literature, talk to drivers, etc?


I realize it's easy to come up with ideas and feel free to discard all of these, but it's just something I thought of the other day. It's always been my experience and maybe some of you will agree, that there are two ways of getting things done.


There are official channels which are almost always the slowest and most ineffective. Then there's the other way, which is using your contacts and trading favors or other acts of goodwill, to make progress. I hold the opinion that being Police is a fairly lonely job, one in which they are often abused and seldom shown any appreciation.


If there is a way to devise or construct a bridge/rapport between the cycling community in PGH and its policemen and women, it could only benefit cyclists/peds in the future. Them being a smaller target audience than 'motorists' and wielding the badges/guns, I might target them first with such an outreach effort.


The very general consensus seems to be that there's a great deal of inertia where motorist behavior or respect for cyclists is concerned. Perhaps if we collectively found a way to raise our visibility to individual officers and their departments that would slowly begin to change.


There, I said it. Feel free to disagree but I think it could be done. Somehow.


2012-12-14 23:57:07

People send messages of support to the police web site. At least I have. But I would support something like a car wash etc.


jonawebb
2012-12-15 00:25:24

Val: You are exactly right. I'm not sure what the details are exactly, but if there's a way to build that bridge I'm in. Do the precincts have bike safety events for young kids we could support, or something like that? It's a worthwhile idea. V.


vannever
2012-12-15 02:16:56

Car wash? The Pittsburgh Police get $67 million a year, not counting whatever Federal money rolls in


And before we get too cozy with them, let's also remember these are the same people that stop and frisk two black people for every white person, even though there are three times as many white people in the city


Now I'm sure there's some decent individuals in that group, but as an organization, the black population is much more heavily represented in stop and frisks and arrests


The Police answer to Luke Ravenstahl, the same guy that let them beat up innocent students at Pitt during the G20, let them hassle people at the Friendship share fairs, let them assault people in Lawrenceville playing music, let them beat up Jordan Miles without any followup change in policy, etc, etc, etc


sgtjonson
2012-12-15 02:24:03

A bake sale for the cops? I thought I was already making my mandatory donation by paying my taxes. The idea of outreach is quaint. They are not kindergarten teachers who can be bribed with cookies or goodwill efforts.


Why play nicey-nice in order to ask them to do the job they're supposedly being paid for to begin with? Why not demand accountability for failure to enforce existing laws instead?


The reality is that neither confronting them with nicey-nice or protest has an affect. Their agenda is determined and immune to outside influence.


quizbot
2012-12-15 05:16:08

while the fundraising outreach might not be my favorite idea either, i do think there is some merit to the general idea. i think we could be an excellent volunteer resource for kids safety events/bike rodeos etc. helping them do their job correctly does not indicate that we condone the incorrect execution of their duties. the bike cops that came down for the try-a-bike seem like they would be a natural starting point. i'd also like to make a serious effort to extend an open invitation to all the city bike cops and any other officers/families who enjoy cycling (believe it or not they are out there) to join us on our big group rides like Flock party rides. sort of a bridge to the bridge.


hopefully mayor opie will be out on his ass next year and upmc, buncher and lamar and the like will stop setting the agenda in the mayor's office. im so tempted to finally register as a democrat, instead of an independent, just so i can vote in the primary, since thats all that will matter. seeing dowd get trounced by the establishment machine last time was painful.


cburch
2012-12-15 05:57:22

I MEANT a carwash (or something easy) for MOTORISTS. I meant attempting some other method for building rapport with officers associations or what have you. I am perfectly content with everyone disagreeing, as long as you at least understand what I'm saying. Something like a carwash or assisting cops with one of their community outreach efforts, are just ways means to have a presence and capture the attention of people you're trying to spread your messaging to. Think of it as like a mini-Bikefest, or whatever, but instead of festive rides and beer, we might be doing something else. If we (example) performed or assisted in some outreach effort or made one of our own, that would be a good chance for key people to either talk to folks about what we do, how we make the city better, etc. These two examples/ideas are just for purpose of explanation; I'm sure with some thought, we could come up with something effective and even worthwhile. I only have an interest in Information Operations (IO) and am not an expert, but I have worked with it enough to understand how it works, what makes it effective, etc...


2012-12-15 06:23:29

I feel like I'm not explaining this clearly enough, so very briefly.


You know how some people sport those Fraternal Order of Police stickers on their car, to show they love the po-po? When they get pulled for speeding it hopefully sparks a dialogue where the driver gets to explain that he supports the police, the community, etc. It may not work enough to get him out of a ticket but then again, if his story is good enough, it damn well might. There HAS to be enough cyclists in PGH that if we all made a concerted effort to impress upon the police what upright and responsible, conscientious people we are, it would begin to have an effect. I really believe it can be done. The pay-off? Police are more conscious of cyclists, harmful stereotypes (of bikers) are replaced with positive ones, Police are more aware of the unique problems we face in this city. The end.


2012-12-15 06:31:54

I pretty much agree with long-winded Val. We could do worse than try to reach out to the folks that make quick decisions on whether to give someone a ticket for breaking the four foot rule, etc. Fair or not.


jonawebb
2012-12-15 13:36:16

I think Val is quite right. The police are individuals, they have discretion, they exercise judgement, they write the reports that become the official story and the basis for all subsequent action.


Why wouldn't we build the bridge? I just don't know how to do it.


Looking back on this year, when did we miss a chance to build that bridge? I think we missed an opportunity when the motorcycle officer got hurt trying to calm down Penn Avenue.


We could have made some inroads there and I just didn't realize it.


vannever
2012-12-15 13:45:04

Hm. I like Val's idea of cyclists bridging to motorists with a carwash - perhaps an annual event during BikeFest? I like the symmetry, and the opportunity it provides for cyclists to speak directly with motorists, maybe put some bike-friendly propaganda in their hands. Key would be to get motorists who are not already bike-friendly to stop and have their car washed...


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-12-15 16:13:12

Maybe somewhere near 14th & smallman?


pseudacris
2012-12-15 16:15:15

I like outreach to police... ultimately both of our groups at our best are all about public safety, so we should be natural allies.


I'm not sure the right mechanism but am willing to entertain ideas. I agree that when the officer on a motorcycle was hit on the same stretch of Penn was hit, we should damn well have stepped up then.


For now, at very, very minimum, when we see misdirected policing effort, can we address that rather than indicting the "cops" or "popo" or breaking out with a stupid donuts stereotype?


These are people out there doing a hard thankless job who get orders they have to follow to keep it. If we don't like what they're doing we need to address our complaints to the folks giving the orders.


2012-12-16 20:33:10

I attempted to document what each of the three drivers saw, as well as what the pedestrian saw, while riding around the crash scene a couple nights ago.

video


I also managed to capture the typical speeds of several passing cars (close to 35-40 mph), as well as one case of driving down Smallman Street at 1:30 a.m. without lights.


stuinmccandless
2012-12-17 04:17:58

(spoiler alert)


Stu that was excellent. It was compelling, I was apprehensive watching it and then when you yelled at that car I laughed out loud. Truly most excellent work, and what a sad documentary, recreating the last steps. wow.


vannever
2012-12-17 04:50:42

I have made it a personal riding habit for years to nod or raise a hand to all drivers/peds that yield or otherwise exhibit courtesy, no matter who has the right of way. Even if I'm smoked, going uphill, I'll manage a hand. That's my own small personal info-campaign I've waged over the years. I tell myself it makes a small imprint on a persons mind when he is somehow positively engaged by a cyclist; that positive interaction may engender future courtesy on their part. Maybe.


2012-12-17 04:56:11

@Val - I do the same. I ride to have fun and I've found that small gestures like that make me feel good and at the least give pause to automobile drivers. I really like when during the Flock rides people walking down the street or waiting at bus stops yell out or clap or wave. I don't know, it just somehow makes me feel closer to my city.


josgood
2012-12-17 06:07:03

Jack, I haven't done a Flock ride but it sounds fun. It's interesting how traffic can be as wooly as it gets around town but pedestrians I've encountered seem to be some of the most easygoing. I haven't been to many cities with a place like Station Square, where so many people are in and out of the bike path and no one seems to mind getting out of your way, one bit. Of course I always stay safe around peds but it's so damn nice when they move and I get to keep cruising...


2012-12-17 13:50:38

I think the attitudes of others towards cyclists depends a lot on class. When you're riding around Station Square, say, you're encountering people who are used to seeing bicycling as an optional fun way to travel. In poorer or rural areas I think people tend to see cyclists either as arrogant recreational appropriators of roads that should properly be used by cars and trucks for transportation, or as inferiors who cannot afford a car. So their response changes appropriately, as might their response to someone giving them a thumbs up.


jonawebb
2012-12-17 13:58:36

@Val I have made it a personal riding habit for years to nod or raise a hand to all drivers/peds that yield or otherwise exhibit courtesy, no matter who has the right of way.


+1


mick
2012-12-17 19:50:39

Concur w/Val on the positive energy, it's always good to wave / smile.


Re Station Square, I think the issue is that nobody tells the people it's a bike trail. They think they're at a shopping mall. It's not in any way evident there's a bike trail, it's much more evident that it's a commercial plaza.


I think that's why they're shocked, shocked to see bikes riding on the scenic mall photoway; there isn't any indication provided to (non-local-bicyclist) people that there's an approved bike lane there.


That gap in expectations and communications completely explains the oblivious behaviors we see there. Wait for the soccer stadium to open.


Same thing with the Carnegie Science Center. Tourists and non-locals walk out of the Science Center enroute to the Submarine, turn onto the sidewalk, ding ding on-your-left swoosh damn! Where did that cyclist come from!


In both places, there's a high likelihood of non-Burgh non-cyclists, and there's no signs/ markings/ warnings like "caution bike trail" or "caution joint use trail" or "share the trail". No little paintings of bike sillouttes on the pavement. No inkling at all that it's anything except a pedestrian sidewalk, and then here comes Me at 15 mph.


And there's no signs for the transient bicyclists either, no "caution joint-use plaza ahead", etc.


So remarkably, we mix uninformed transients with ambiguous situations and no infrastructure and we get injuries and conflict. We could improve both Station Square and Science Center with a little bit of paint and signage.


vannever
2012-12-17 21:30:19

I'm pretty sure the terminology "joint use plaza" would attract an extremely confused demographic.


edmonds59
2012-12-17 22:26:59

@ edmunds59

I'm pretty sure the terminology "joint use plaza" would attract an extremely confused demographic.


I'm SO there, dude!


mick
2012-12-17 22:39:52

I'm all for thumbs ups & waves.


Re: Science Center. I'm 99% certain that there's a "watch for bikes" sign before the path heading toward the sub.


Re: cop outreach. They do have a bike squad & am assuming with that, some level of internal awareness about safety issues.


quizbot
2012-12-18 01:32:55

I'm laughing about that post, Vannevar, because coming through by the submarine is frequently on my way home. I maintain courtesy and slow down when necessary but yes, I have done some freakin' barnstorming through there, too. it's actually kind of funny sometimes, the way people look at you (the cyclist) like you just stepped out of a spaceship or something. Really? I'm just a cyclist, man...


2012-12-19 02:57:18