BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

We live in a car-centric culture. If you subscribe to the "us vs them" mentality, you immediately surround yourself with enemies.

I have to say that while I try very hard to stay neutral in the whole Car vs Bike debate. intellectually I know that cars aren't going anywhere and Cyclist are always going to be a minority. (according to Wikipedia there are 255 million automobiles in the USA while there are only 500,000 people who regularly bike to and from work) Thats around 500 to 1

There are times however, like when I was run off the road and got to find out what it feels like to bounce off of the asphalt that I find it hard to stay so neutral. So I completely understand what your saying man.

Mick - when you're riding your bike on the road you're surrounded by enemies whether you chose them or not.

@Salty

Hazards? Yes. Fools? Yes.

Enemies? No.

Hazards? Yes

Fools? Yes

Enemies? unfortunately Yes there are those out there who look on people on bikes as targets

Friends fools and Hazards Don't target you Enemies do.

Anyone who rides on the streets has to take the view that there are people out there that don't want you on 'Their streets' Lets face some facts, there are alot of great and supportive people out there. I get a huge amount of support when I am out riding, but these arent the people who are going to end hurting me, it is the Fools, Hazards, and Enemies that are going to end up running me off the road, opening a car door at just the wrong time or making a turn without seeing me.

Just Saying

DB

so what then, go and piss off the whole of drivers at the next CM on our collective behalf? nah, i'll continue to try to coexist as peacefully as possible. until you're on a bike that's more outwardly dangerous than a car (i.e. until you have the bigger weapon), the "us vs. them" mentality is suicidal.

Noah,

I for one am not saying anything of the sort, what I am saying is that if you are going to ride out on the road you have to ride like those people are everywhere.

If I ride like everyone is my friend and looking out for me, we all know what will happen (Road Pizza)

However

If I ride like every car I see is a weapon then I will be better off.

Also

No one who is surrounded by weapons pointed at them is on the attack, they are on the defense and that is just how you have to be on a bike. On the Defense and on the look out.

Oh sorry that wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, just my criticism of the not-very constructive "us vs them" stance. I agree with what you're saying overall. Trying to lump all drivers into one group of a-holes is as foolish as lumping all cyclists into one group of a-holes...

I think that drivers that actually target cyclists are (thankfully) few and far between. But, there are plenty of them for whom a few seconds of their precious time is more important than your safety, and as dbacklover points out you can't tell who is who until it's too late.

The fact that cars are "outwardly more dangerous" doesn't make the situation any better. If drivers routinely got killed by running into bicycles, do you think they'd still act the same? What does that tell you?

I'm not saying that makes it better. What I am saying however is that due to that fact, auto drivers have the upper hand and that it's in our best interest to make nice as much as possible, from observing traffic laws to pushing for more advocacy efforts to education. Saying "us vs. them" when "us" is a fragile human on a bike and "them" is a 2-ton steel hulk is ridiculous. Try to see it as "us AND them". The basic physical discrepancy means that the onus is on us to make it a better scene. Cause the people in the steel cages could care less, really.

@timito - I think it's fair to surmise that cars aren't going away anytime soon. Hopefully, they'll become more green & helpful for occupants (mandatory software announcing "cyclist on the right" over theIr phone call would be awesome. Recognition technology exists... someone get some CMU engineering students on the problem). Feeling threatened doesn't have to be an everyday experience... I have found that carrying around existential anger on a ride makes it much more difficult than it already is.... ride defensively, and don't let every little thing get to you. Otherwise, it's always going to suck.

Also - in general - if cyclists were actual targets, I think there would be too many ghost bikes to count out there. Drivers may not understand the rules & protocol for passing & general behavior around bikes, but with some education & a growing presence of cyclists on the road, they'll get it. 99% of the drivers out there aren't outwardly malicious. I think a HUGE part of the problem (both in the suburbs & city) is drivers being afraid to cross a double yellow line to pass, even if on a road with clear sight lines. With no cars within a mile on my sunday rides in the middle of nowhere, I often feel squeezed... they need to be instructed that it's ok to take some room to pass when the road is clear.

Feeling threatened is a different then being threatened,

The other day I'm riding down Butler, staying out of the way, cause that's how I ride. I find myself next to a Tow Truck. Dude inside is yelling about bike riders. "You motherfucking bikers always getting in the way, I'm gonna hit you with my truck!" I look over at him and ask "why you mad at me?" "Fuckin Bikes, you guys are always breaking the law" I pointed out we were sitting at a red light. Once again he swears and threatens bodily harm with his motor vehicle. I point out he's the one breaking the law, he's threatening me with a weapon. Now, if this guy had been next to me threatening me with a knife it would have taken me approximately .2 seconds to smash his fucking face in with my U-lock and then kick him in the nuts. Dudes driving a truck so I should just ignore the threat?, shucks, poor guys probably having a rough day. Fuck that. He threatened me with his Stupid truck. It's not gonna take much, If another guy threatens me with his vehicle, I'm not gonna wait to see if maybe he just needs a little hug or he's having a rough day I'm gonna smash his fucking face in with a U-Lock. That's called self defense.

Eat it up

timito

yes. you should ignore him. dude is driving a truck. you could neutralize someone who has a knife. not so much a driver. what is your little u-lock gonna do against his 4-ton tow truck? get real.

if you're in a position to whack him with your lock, then you're not in a position for him to do much with his vehicle other than fling the door open against you. so you've thrown the first blow. how will the cops or a jury handle that?

so you break his jaw, that's cool. and then we have a whole army of tow truck drivers (his friends & coworkers) trying to run us all down. it ups the ante. are we all supposed to wield our u-locks against them? think about that.

i'm not defending a-holes like these. i had a run-in with one just last week. i just want you to consider your actions and their consequences. for the rest of the cycling community.

but this is all assuming that the threat is still verbal. once it becomes physical, then the story changes, and clearly self defense is necessary. either way... stay safe dude.

exactly noah. if a driver threatens you verbally at a stop sign or when parked, etc, go behind the vehicle and very visibly write down their plate number and let them know you have done so and are calling 911 to report them for making terroristic threats, because that's exactly what they are doing. if possible then use the video camera on your phone to record the ensuing stream of threats and vulgarity that is almost sure to follow. last time i did this the driver had tried to run me over as i was walking in a crosswalk in front of my office. when i started getting in her face with a camera she freaked out and took off. the officer that responded to the 911 call was able to issue her several citations even though he wasn't there when it happened because i had her, in her car, admitting that she tried to run me over and then threatening to try it again along with various other threats and then pulling out against traffic, blowing a stop sign and endangering the lives of her passengers.

Dang! Happy ending, cburch. I like to hear those!

Excellent recommendation, by the way. Keep a cool head and let them blow theirs.

Sorry, when some guys threatening to physically assault me with a huge truck, I'm not stopping to think about the cycling community, I'm not taking pictures and license plate numbers. I'm going to defend myself, I'm gonna hit the fucker in the face. Like I said what's the difference between someone threatening you with a club a knife or their truck. I'll take my chances with a jury.

I know I have every right to my lane and the road, and I follow all the rules just like the cars (only once did I pass a line of cars, they were turning and I wanted to but went straight instead of a left - I used hand signals to agree with the lead driver who would do what, and still felt bad passing them all up).

But I still shout thank you, give thumbs up, friendly wave and smile to everyone who waits to turn after I pass, who lets me have my turn at stop signs, who gives me plenty of room when they pass, who let me merge in with traffic, who let me change lanes when I want to. Thus I spend most of my ride saying thank yous, smiling, waving, and making eye contact with people, even though they're just either 1) following the law or 2) using common sense. I partly hope it's positive reinforcement, but also it just feels good to smile, wave, and thank people so much. Maybe a bit too Oprah-y for most people, I dunno.

I'm also lucky. There has been the odd person passing way too close, but I've never been run off the road. It might be the "Boob Factor" (I've got boobs, and most men act like boobs around them, not homicidal maniacs), or it might be inexperience, or luck, I don't know. I'm hoping that when (not if) I am hit, run off the road, assaulted, or threatened, the thousands of people I've thanked, waved to, and exchanged smiles with... I'm hoping that will get me through it.

I'm also hoping that since i have biking habits, and people have driving habits, that the drivers in my area will get to know "That chick on her bike, the one with the green crate" and thus continue to be kind in traffic to me. I think a lot of road rage is only possible because the anonymity of the steel box on wheels dehumanizes everyone else on the road. It's hard to dehumanize a grinning girl with a crate of groceries on her bike. At least I hope it is.

That being said, some threads here make me think I should carry a baseball bat on my bike. So I'm conflicted.

Maybe a bit too Oprah-y for most people, I dunno.

Nope, not at all.

Kindness can be pretty disarming.

I'm constantly letting drivers turn left in front of me with a smile and a wave. If more then a few cars get behind me, I pull over and let them rush on to the next red light. I pull over and let the 91A or 86B get by me even though I know I'll pass them within a block or two. I think this is why I was so taken aback by some Dimwit shouting at me, then threatening me. I stay out of the way. He's the one doing the stereotyping. He's the aggressor. I spent some time in a place where, If you didn't stick up for yourself, no one would. You might have to hit some dude who was 6' 6" because he wanted to take your cookie. I've had my ass kicked a few times, it doesn't worry me.

I'm all for sharing the road and the warm fuzzy feelings you get from being nice but I'm not putting up with some lame fat ass threatening to do me bodily harm. I'm not going to wait and see if he's really going to hit me. Dude threatens me with a weapon, it's on.

Ok, case in point. I'm on Wilkins, in the left turn lane to turn on Beeler. Another cyclist is stopped at the opposite direction light on Wilkins. That light turns green, the car behind him guns it and pulls out to pass him.

Did the guy realize he made a huge mistake and let up? Of course not - he kept it floored as he threaded the needle between us. In the rain. Of course if he'd managed to kill one or both of us, no big deal - it would have just been another "accident".

Most people wouldn't dream of pulling that crap if EITHER of the bikes in that situation was a car since that poses some personal danger to them. But, since we're not, and there's zero penalty for killing a cyclist, they don't really care. I guess if I smiled and waved at the guy it would have made it all better.

@ timito - guy in truck.

FAIL.

Hitting his truck with your U-lock? Kinda stupid, he might have a gun and that's justifiable homicide.

OTOH - chances of him owning that truck? very small. The guy has an employer, probably with the name and phone number on the side of the truck, a license plate, and a commercial driver's license.

Is there some reason you have not yet let the man's boss and the licensing agency know of his behavior?

Is there some reason you are not posting the name of his company here amongst the friendly private space of the internet?

Let that driver feel your pain.

Mick

It was C & R towing, I did call his employer, they didn't seem all that concerned with his behavior. I'm pretty sure if he came backed with a busted mirror, they might take notice. He might have a gun. I might have a gun. We both might have guns.

Anger towards a particular driver as a result of a particular circumstance like timito described is a pretty natural response.

Transferring that anger toward EVERY driver is not.

I tend toward ejwme's approach, and I love Mick's approach to take information and make a phone call. Those are good examples of more constructive responses.

@timito - it's clear you must have had a very bad encounter, because your anger is palpable even now. I get angry myself, and I know how hard it is to not see red in the moment. In the bigger picture, however, "us v. them" gets the cycling community nowhere - except in greater jeopardy. I know how hard it is for me sometimes to get beyond certain things that have caused me great anger. I really hope you can get beyond yours, because acting out on it will result in worse consequences - i'm not an attorney, but if you did act out, everything you have said here would make it look premeditated. Keep your chin-up. Turn the other cheek.

Salty said

"Most people wouldn't dream of pulling that crap if EITHER of the bikes in that situation was a car since that poses some personal danger to them. But, since we're not, and there's zero penalty for killing a cyclist, they don't really care. I guess if I smiled and waved at the guy it would have made it all better."

This is what I meant by acting like it is us vs them. Im not going to go so far as to think of it as we need to go to war against everyone in a car, instead we need to realize that cars can hurt us and we need to treat EVERY CAR,TRUCK,SUV ON THE ROAD LIKE A GUN THAT IS AIMED AT OUR HEADS. The first rule of Gun saftey is to always treat every gun as if it was loaded (even a gun you unloaded yourself) That is the way we as cyclists need to treat every car

Hearts and minds.

We're outnumbered and outgunned.

Hearts and minds.

Alright it's not Us vs. Them. It's Me vs. Them I'm not including the cycling community, It's just me. It's is premeditated, I don't care. I'm tired of some fat ass thinking he can intimidate me with his truck, he can't. I'm not an attorney either but I've been to prison and I'm not afraid to stand up to some fat ass, even if he has a gun. Turn the other cheek? I'm pretty much done with that, you wanna threaten me, lets go.

can you maybe post in the introductions thread so those of us that do drive as well as bike can avoid you at intersections? posting anonymously is awesome and all, but a little accountability goes a long way.

"I think a lot of road rage is only possible because the anonymity of the steel box on wheels dehumanizes everyone else on the road. It's hard to dehumanize a grinning girl with a crate of groceries on her bike. At least I hope it is."

This. Assholes in cars who rage on cyclists also rage on other drivers. Assholes are assholes. But what's alarming to me is how drivers that you just know aren't total assholes act like assholes when they're driving. Like the 40-something suburbanite in her Malibu screaming at you for not letting her pittsburgh left. It's the anonymity that allows this. If you walked into TJ Max in front of her and didn't realize she was 10' behind you, would she scream at you for not holding the door? No. She wouldn't. I mean maybe if she's daft, but she's likely not. But somehow once she gets in her car and has that shell around her, everyone outside of the shell becomes dehumanized and acting entirely uncivil becomes normal behavior from someone who wouldn't otherwise act that way. I'm sure there have been studies on this.

Whoa.

Nobody's questioning your courage. Nobody's diminishing your right to be angry. But if you act out, it reflects on the rest of us.

Those that know me know I'm not always the most mature person, but it's not the schoolyard out there-nor a prison yard. Responsible adults do not settle things with a u-lock upside the head. So what if some a-hole threatens you. Get over it, take his information, call his boss and get on with your life.

I sympathize with you - both your anger and the circumstance with the tow truck driver. I'm on your side, that's why i'm trying to talk you down.

Believe me, with this attitude, nothing good can come of it. Please, please find a way to make peace with this, or some more constructive response.

Don't let your anger dictate your actions (that was unintentionally jedi advice there).

@cburch, are you planning on threatening me with your vehicle? My full name is Timothy E. Kelly, I live at 5266 Butler st. Do you need my Social Security number?

way to go cburch! that was awesome of you to get her on film and actually get citations.

I carry a pen and paper in my handlebar bag in case I need to jot down a plate #. I'll choose to write down info a make a report instead of escalating a situation that I can't control.

Especially throwing the first punch- it's one thing to be verbally assulted by a driver...but if you throw your U-lock first YOU'RE the one who gets busted. And how does that help anything anyway???

"So what if some a-hole threatens you". Really, somebody threatens your life, ah, just get over it.

Here again if it was a gun he was threatening me with and not an automobile, would your response be to "get over it"?

Apparently some here are not that familiar with the Law. It is illegal to threaten some one with a deadly weapon be it a knife, a gun or a two ton truck. That verbal threat of bodily harm is the legal equivalent of the first punch. I'm just defending myself.

The phrase "breaking the cycle of violence" comes to mind right about now.

no i just want to avoid someone with anger issues who is just looking for a reason to act like a dick. i would hate to have my truck damaged because you thought i was a few inches too close to you or that my exhaust sounded angry.

if you want to make a productive contribution to the community, awesome. we need people with energy, and you obviously have it. BUT and this is a huge BUT, we DONT need people with attitude problems acting out and reinforcing the image of cyclists as a bunch of entitled agit-prop assholes. being a dick is being a dick, i dont care how many wheels are under you. if someone is yelling at you and you hit them, you are a dick.

Your right, I should let people threaten me with bodily harm because I'm riding a bike. That's cool. Threaten to hit me with your truck, I'll just smile and wave. I'd hate for some belligerent fat ass in a tow truck to get the wrong idea about cyclists. We don't stand up for ourselves, we smile and wave, so lucky we are to be allowed on the road at all. F that, I'm not including myself in that community. When someone threatens me with violence, I'll probably respond with violence. I'm not going to wait and see if he's bluffing, you can, maybe smile and wave while your being run down.

It is illegal to threaten some one with a deadly weapon be it a knife, a gun or a two ton truck. That verbal threat of bodily harm is the legal equivalent of the first punch. I'm just defending myself.

I'm not a lawyer. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but even if it is, good luck convincing someone that is what went down. The guy with the bloody head/bashed up truck will have no problem proving his side of the story. If the only damage to you is threats, it isn't very easy to show that unless you've videotaped the whole thing, even then it may not work.

Can we all chillax?

@cburch: +100.

@timito: Get counseling. And a good attorney. It is pretty clear that you are looking for conflict. I hope it doesn't come to that for you.

Some dude threatens me for riding a bike, says hes gonna run me down and I've done nothing but ride my bike, I'm looking for conflict? what, I'm going to defend myself, I'm not riding around looking for conflict, I'm riding my bike trying to stay out of the way. It's clear to you I'm looking for conflict. excuse me, how so?

There are a lot of assholes in this world. Some of them drive trucks. Some of them ride bikes.

^^

Quartuccio's Law.

There are a lot of assholes in this world. Some of them drive trucks. Some of them ride bikes.

and some of us do both!

I walk a lot, so there's that.

I have this gem in my personal message folder. I'll share:

Joe, apologies if I'm coming off as a grumpy old bastard. I appreciate what your saying, sometimes I just can't help myself. I'll try and keep my mouth shut more often. I don't want to create an Us vs. Them, situation, have a good day and a safe ride.

Sent: 04/18/10 at 04:19:56 PM To joeframbach

Tim, to go back to your original post....I gotta call total b.s. on the pollution argument. If you think for one minute that bicycles don't fill someones face with pollution, please go to China or Taiwan or wherever your tires and tubes were produced with no emission laws and ask them.

Riding bikes may pollute less than cars but let's not feel too innocent here.

i've been riding in pittsburgh for about 8 years now, and i've been threatened maybe twice. does this sort of thing just follow certain people around?

"you're not wrong, walter, you're just an asshole."

I think it depends on where you ride as well as how you ride.

*We don't stand up for ourselves, we smile and wave [...]*

That's a very good tactic to disarm a situation.

*Goddamn it! That asshole smiled and waved at me! I'M REALLY GOING TO RUN HIM OVER NOW!*

Further more, how many cases do we know of where a cyclist and a motorist got in a verbal argument, which resulted in the cyclist being run over? I think like 99.9% of the time the motorists are just running their mouths.

Physical violence with one dude isn't going to make the other 499 drivers think (Using somebodies 500 to 1 ratio) "Oh yeah, lets respect cyclists and be courteous on the road now." If anything, they'll hear about it on the news and think we're all U-Lock wielding psychos.

Just think of Dennis Nedry:

I'm gonna run you over [...]

Pierce

at first I was wondering where you got a pic of me from the last time I ended up riding in the rain. the 500 to 1 ratio was from me. I googled number of cars in us and number of bike commuters and did the math.

How about some them vs. them: Guy tried to cut me off, got pissed, then unsuccessfully spit on my jeep. I smiled and waved as he passed and shouted something in yinzr.

And some us vs. us: I don't respond to pleasantries from cyclists that run the opposing stop sign when I have stopped at mine.

So because they make tires and tubes in a country that doesn't care about pollution, It's cool for me to breathe in auto exhaust as I ride down the street near my home? Really, this is what you came up with. China is polluted and your tubes are made in China so you should breath in auto exhaust. Come on, that makes no sense. Pollutions OK here because China is polluted. I'm having trouble following this logic.

I'm having trouble following this logic.

The argument being made is that bicycles produce pollution through their manufacture, and that riding your bike does not mean you are any less guilty of producing pollution than someone who drives a car.

Because you said in your initial post I've never blown pollution in someones face, spakbros was pointing out that yes, actually you have. The faces in which your pollution is blowing just happen to be somewhere in East Asia rather than the East End.

Hope that clears it up.

Wow.

I'm sure there is some angry Chinese guy ranting on the Internet right now about how he has to breathe in all the fumes from the factories making inexpensive tires and tubes for American cyclists.

I think his point was, just because you think you aren't polluting, doesn't mean you aren't. Just because the pollution isn't following you around doesn't mean it isn't harming anyone. It is not fair to say the people living in China "don't care" about pollution. The rich guys running the factories, and the government people taking their bribes might not, but most of the people do.

You guys are really digging here, whats with the need to alienate me, It's true, I'm sure, but seriously, it's pretty obtuse. If you wanna get up on a pedestal and be the guy that's right you can do better, comparing the pollution that's made during the manufacture of a bicycle tire to a ten ton diesel blowing fumes on Butler, man, that's a stretch.

[Removed post due to unnecessary snark. Sorry.]

whats with the need to alienate me

Alright it's not Us vs. Them. It's Me vs. Them I'm not including the cycling community, It's just me.

F that, I'm not including myself in that community.

ok.

And it's also a stretch to say that just because one is driving a car when you see them driving it that they are not doing their part elsewhere. Maybe that person invested in better windows or heating for their home or maintain a vegetable garden. You never know.

You're alienating yourself here.

Don't forget the polution from the big boat that brought your bike-stuff half way around the world, plus the polution from the truck that brought the bike-stuff to your local bike shop, plus the polution from the coal fired plant that supplies the electricity to the bike shop, plus the oil and energy to create the roads your riding on, plus ++++++++++

Truth is we all polute. Some TRY to be less poluting than others, but we all impact the environment.

I guess I don't understand why you want to live in a city then. The population dense nature of where we live at the minimum requires goods to be transported in, and waste to be transported out. While it would be possible to have pedal-powered garbage trucks, I have a feeling the process would be rather slow. Building/repairing a house or other structure, with no cars/trucks? You want the EMTs to haul your ass to the hospital on a bikes-at-work trailer, or the firemen to bike over with a 5-gallon pail of water, hoping that its enough?

Like it or not, the city runs because we have internal combustion engines. If you want none of the things the city offers, and just want all the cars to go away, then move up to the mountains and build yourself a log cabin. You won't have to breathe anymore diesel fumes. I've been tempted to do this myself, but I enjoy human interaction and sushi too much.

(cue the Homer Simpson sound-effect here: ahhhhh sushi!)

Not only the city, but the neighborhood. I consider Butler to be one of the worst to ride a bike on.

I never claimed that someone may not be conserving energy even though they drive a car. But really trying to make a connection to me not wanting to breathe in car exhaust to buying a tire made in China. That's not logical and would seem to be someone grasping at straws. @Joe, that's pretty classy, posting a personal message on a public forum. Your right, I am alienating myself, You guys can all smile and wave and hold hands when some asshole in a truck threatens your life. I'm gonna smash his face in, Fuck the cycling community.

More like gasping on exhaust... get it?

@Dwillen, I'm not sure if you know this but houses got built, goods were transported, in fact this whole city existed, as did many others BEFORE the internal combustion engine.

+5 @ Marko82

So you want to join an Amish community? Some of us ride bike, some ride cars, some do both. Anytime you say "group x is inherently evil and all full of pricks" you're running into trouble.

You want to pay somebody to cycle in your groceries from whatever countycountry they're coming from?

People on this board have been exposed to actual physical violence (not just threats) I myself have had somebody get out of his car with the intent of "kicking my ass" and have had somebody on Butler bump me with his SUV.

I'm still not advocating for violence to resolve the problems. (And not responding with violence in those situations resulted in me not having to get into two fights)

I would LOVE a city where people didn't use cars to commute to and from work and to do small errands, etc, etc, stuff I do on a bike 365 days a year, but that's not the reality we live in. You can be all pissed off about it for the rest of your life, or you can show people that yes, you can get groceries on a bike, or get to work on a bike, etc, etc.

I don't see smash face advocacy as being effective.

I'm familiar with the notion of Pittsburghers nostalgia for the past, but yearning for the time before cars... that's old school!

I'm not an advocate, I'm just some dick on a bike, I don't mind getting in a fight and I'm tired of turning the other cheek when someone threatens me with their car. There's plenty of advocates here, you guys do what you feel is right. I'll defend myself how I deem appropriate.

edit: arguing on the Internet is pointless.

Oh good grief. This is getting silly.

Stop feeding the troll.

@Pierce- just for the sake of making random argumentments since that's all this thread is....I have to say Timito can't go and join the Amish with his bike. They don't believe in the chainring situation, so bikes are out. They use scooters like these though:

Some amish ride bikes. The kind of bike depends on the congregation.

Lets make fun of Tim, over the internet where no one can see cause it's anonymous. I'll even post private messages he sent me, right Joe,

I live at 5266 Butler, come on by, make fun of me in person. bunch of pussies Fuck all ya all.

I'm not making fun of you, bud. The dialectic requires somebody brave/crazy enough to stake out territory well beyond orthodoxy. Sometime I'll buy you a drink and explain that. In your defense, anybody who thinks the nature and degree of pollution created by building a bicycle and a few tubes is even REMOTELY in the same range as the pollution created by building a car and driving it out of the factory -- they're the crazy ones. Equating minor pollution with major pollution is like saying "I have sinned in my heart." It's a religious position.

So, to throw out what might be a slightly more constructive tack to the discussion (not sure why I feel like doing that), imagine if all the suburbans suddenly had the scales fall from their eyes and realized that lifestyle was f'ed, and decided to ditch the cars, move to the city and take public transportation. Suddenly property in the city would become so costly it would probably drive many people on this board out to really crappy remote housing. Anybody know anyone who has tried to get an apartment in Portland, Seattle, or SF? Even Copenhagen has automobile suburbs.

We (society) are in a crappy situation that has taken decades to develop, and will take painful years to straighten out. I think the "greed is good" mentality that this country has embraced since the "80's has degenerated people into something like caged rats, and scratching and clawing at each other like rats will accomplish nothing toward fixing our society. Don't descend.

Anyhow most my bikes were built a long time ago, some in England, some right here in the states. I did buy some grips and a few tubes though. so yeah I'm polluting.

Joe, I wrote you a private message, an apology actually, for coming across too harsh, I'd like to retract that apology, should we ever come across each other in public, stay the fuck out of my way. It's my opinion your a chump, an ass kissing pussy to put it more succinctly, feel free to post this where ever you want.

Sent: 06/15/10 at 10:40:06 PM To joeframbach

Jesus Christ, you need some help. This is posted for posterity, in case we do cross paths. It'll help my court case, I'm sure.

This thread is beyond going in a constructive direction. Timito, I thought you had a point to start with but man... you've gone completely off the deep end.

If all the cars were intentionally out to get us we'd all be dead already, and bashing drivers in the heads with u-locks isn't going to make anything any better. Neither is smiling and waving for that matter but I guess it's better than antagonizing people on most days.

That's just my opinion Joe, I wrote you a private message a while back and you choose to post it to a public forum, That's cool to you?, seriously? In my book that's a chumps move. I'd say your the one who might need some help if you think that's cool.

Joe, don't you wanna jump in hear and explain the relevancy of posting a private message between two parties to a public forum. I'm curious as to your motivation.

Wow.... this is all too much, don't you all think? Everybody has some good points, but that's about it.

Something that I like about riding a bike, is that it is a very personal thing.... from how fast can one pedal, to the riding style, the gear one wears, etc..... To each its own in how they express themselves in the road, and how they defend themselves when they feel threatened or bullied by drivers on the road. My philosophy is that regardless of how one does, at the end one just has to own up to it and its consequences.

There are bigger problems out there than calling each other ass-wipes on an Internet forum (anybody see the Presidential Address at 8pm?)

Timito: do your thing... I ride Butler every day and yeah, it sucks with the bad road and all the traffic & fumes .... but, what makes me forget all about it is when I pass the cars all stuck in traffic while I move ahead freely! And the AWESOME cross-guard lady who tells me 'have a great-day baby girl' when I pass by her intersection!

Yeah, how one behaves in the road as a cyclist does reflect in the rest of the cyclist community.... but ultimately, do what feels RIGHT for you!!

Peace!!

Come on people! Peace! Or go ride your bike and think twice before you post

Ughh, typical, now this is why "girls" don't get in fights in the street, so frustrating.

(for really thick people, that above is sar-cas-mm. )

Really people do we need to go there. Anyone who rides in the ELB area is pretty much destined to get harassed or assaulted this summer, apparently by one small group of teens, and we're fighting each other?

Fuck the cycling community.

tell us how you really feel.

I've thought about it. The next time some belligerent pig in a tow truck threatens to run me down for riding a bike. I'll just nod and wave, smile a bit. I won't smash his face in. Then he can go and tell his friends and coworkers what a pal I am. Then his one friend, maybe an off duty firemen, won't shoot me for riding my two year old daughter to the grocery store on a bike. Yeah, I'll just grin... "Carry on sir! A fine morning to ya!

http://boingboing.net/2009/07/27/firefighter-allegedl.html

I rode thirty miles today of empty, smooth pavement. Three 900 foot climbs, three bombing decents (hit 41 mph on one of them), and only half a dozen cars passed (all on the other side of the double yellow).

It was the best ride I've had since I was a kid.

"...Fuck the cycling community. tell us how you really feel..."

You know? I don't think that's true or fair.... if anything, someone trying to really be 100% car-free and teaching those principles to their children and family, is someone -really- supporting the cycling community -really.

Rather, this is more about about challenging the status-quo and being upset at the reality of some of the cyclying conditions in this city......... THAT is a whole another story.

Just my 2-cents

i am still not sure how you equate calling the cops on the guy for making terroristic threats, recording his vehicle and any dumb shit he might scream at you with giving him a friendly wave and a nod.

this is what makes me think you aren't interested in any real sort of discussion about the issue. doing something less than hitting the guy does not equal doing nothing, except in your mind.

Call the cops? You ever call the cops?

Where the fuck do you live.

"Yes officer, some guy yelled at me from his truck." People get killed by autos and cops don't give a fuck. Tell a cop some guy was making terrorist threats? wake up. Cops can't find eight kids running around the East End beating on bikers and some off duty fireman shoots a guy in the head for giving his baby a ride. Guess what? I'm giving my baby a ride. Maybe some asshole wants to shoot me. This violence is for real and I certainly didn't start it. Call the cops, shit.

Since we're linking;

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04040/270970.stm

cyclist carries gun, cyclist "defends" himself against truck, cyclist still loses. Urick is still in prison, I looked up his inmate number.

Cyclist shoots motorist, he's still in jail after 6 years. Motorist shoots cyclist, he gets 120 days. Sounds fair to me.

http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/11/23/charles-diez-gets-120-days-for-shooting-cyclist-in-the-head/

And anger management classes. Let's not forget that tough punishment.

I think if the truck had hit him and he then shot the driver it would be treated differently. No way am I saying for everyone to bike around swinging a gun to scare off someone that might attack them, but on the other hand if someone is being beaten by 8 people I feel they have the right to defend themselves. I just hope for that persons sake the court system agrees with me.

@ Firefighter shooter article

Says he got off easy for usually being an "outstanding" citizen

Wasn't Dennis Rader (BTK Killer) an outstanding citizen too?

A few years back, I sat as a juror for a local murder trial. The judge was pretty careful to explain a few things about the legal definition of self defense, since it applied directly to the case on which we were deliberating.

If someone has actively attacked you, and has not broken off, you can do pretty much anything in return and call it self defense.

If someone has threatened you with immediate deadly force, and you have no means of escape, you may be able to attack first and call it self defense.

If someone has attacked you, and breaks off the attack, you immediately lose any claim to self defense if you pursue and re-engage.

If someone has threatened (but not attacked), and you have a means of escape, you aren't likely to be able to claim self defense if you instead attack.

That's all I remember, and I Am Not A Lawyer, so take it with a grain of salt.

Basically, the general thrust of the definition is that, if you can escape, do so rather than striking first, as the courts will not be sympathetic to attacking when other options exist.

With regard to cyclist-motorist conflict, there are very few scenarios I can imagine in which a cyclist could possibly initiate an attack on a driver and legitimately claim self defense.

Yeah, remember, vehicles are only deadly weapons against cops

PA House Bill 40

I still haven't received a reply from Rep. Perry's staff as to how this may help cyclists.

If someone threatens you and you have a means of escape, you should be able to get a restraining order. Legally, anyway, if not practically.