BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Over the last few months in Pittsburgh there have been numerous attacks on area cyclists. In addition, outside of the cycling community, there are numerous shootings every day. Are you trained and prepared to respond?

There are numerous things you can do to prepare and train for just such an attack. As a Certified Firearms Instructor, I teach the appropriate mindset and specific tactics developed especially for cyclists. You can survive just such an encounter!

The Basic course focuses on Gun Safety, selection, gun handling, storage, cleaning and marksmanship fundamentals. The course lasts 4-5 hours and costs $85.00.

The follow on course, Defensive Pistol I, focuses on using your firearm in self-defense and introduces tactics unique to being on a bike and more advanced techniques, including non-lethal options. This is an in depth 8 hour course of instruction. The Cost for this course is $125.00

“When seconds count, the police are only minutes away…”

I will coordinate with you for a free phone consultation upon request. Please provide your name, phone number, and your availability.

You CAN enjoy your sport, your home and be prepared at the same time!

Here we go...

Man, i wish i hadn't sold my pistol seeing this! I miss my gun.

How is anyone supposed to verify you are actually a certified anything? You didn't post your name, the name of your business (you do have a business, right?), an address or a phone number.

If anyone is concerned about their personal safety, I'd advise against giving a stranger from the Internet your name, phone and times you'll be at home. At least he or she will know you'll be unarmed when you meet with him or her for "training" with your pocket full of cash.

Now I'm thinking about Jane's Addiction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwI02OHtZTg

In lieu of the free consultation, you may also elect to come by Braverman Arms, Inc., located at 912 Penn Ave in Pittsburgh for additional information. We've been in business since 1958.

Man it sure is annoying when a stranger wanders into our relatively thoughtful and considerate community with crap like this.

Ha ha.

Nothing wrong with people learning how to protect them self. This happened right up the street from me

http://kdka.com/local/mount.washington.attack.2.1341973.html

If this guy had decided to pay me a visit instead I really wouldn't have a way to protect myself. Even just unarmed self defense knowledge could help save me or my loved ones.

I'm not against educating/protecting yourself, I am against being a random ham hawking his goods 'round these parts without even starting a conversation.

Its just an infomercial.

Its just an infomercial.

Welcome to the internet.

Owning a gun is just bad news. You are more likely to have an accident with the thing then ever have to use it for self defense.

And it was the late James Brown that once said..."I don't know karate, I know crazy!"

My boyfriend and I are avid bicylcist. Over the past few weeks, we have become increasingly concerned about the escalation of crime here in the Burgh. We were also concerned about the increased vulnerability we have riding our bikes.

We researched may self defense courses. Most were large groups and were unwilling or unable to address our unique needs as bicyclist. We were given Tom's name and contacted him. He was willing to listen to our concerns, and customize the classed to meet our specific needs and our individual skill levels. He provided us with comprehensive instruction and the tools that we needed to feel more confident in our capabilities to defend ourselves while riding as well as in our daily lives.

If you are concerned about your safety and want to learn, Tom is you guy. He listens and adapts the class to meet your needs. The courses are well worth your money and your safety.

We felt we got so much out of the class, we recommended that Tom place a post on this message board so that others that are concerned about their personal safety and abilities to defend themselves would be able to find him.

"recommmended he post on this message board" that you signed up for 12 hours ago and have never posted on before? right.

I'm with Rob, if people want to sign up for something like this, that's up to them. i just don't want this board filled with spam, especially spam that has nothing to do with cycling.

Well Salty... I generally do not spend my time posting on message boards... If I am not working, I am out riding. I did sign up so that I could provide my fellow biking enthusiast with my feedback on this course. If you feel safe... good for you... I choose not to be an ostrich.

I do not own a gun. I have no intention of ever buying one.

I have never fired a gun. I have no intention of ever doing so.

I want to ride my bike in peace.

Fix the problem. Don't make a new one.

It's a dangerous world out there. I think about the guy at the Urban Tree Forge, or that family a few years ago that got decimated by the flying landscaping trailer on Rt. 8. I think about Don Parker - a f-ing flip flop!?

As evidenced above, things do fall from the sky from time to time. If my number is up, my number is up. There's not a whole helluva a lot anyone can do about it.

If someone's gonna approach me with a gun, they are welcome to my bike and anything else I have that they want. If they are going to shoot me, I'm going to get shot. I can't imagine a scenario on a bike where i'm going to get all Clint Eastwood and shoot it out with somebody. I'd just end up dead in a slightly more dramatic way.

I guess this may make me an "ostrich" in the eyes of some. I'm okay with that. You can't prepare for everything. But at the end of the day, what it's really about is how do you want to live your life? In fear that someone is lurking around every corner with a gun?

Like Stu said, gun training for cyclists may make sense for some people in a certain circumstance, but does it address the problem. Or does it make a new one.

Man give it up and check the ground rules of the board... "keep it constructive and NO SPAM"... thanks.

Scarlett Johansson would look good shoveling poop.

Ha ha!

Haaa haaa! This thread is such a howl! We're being stalked by folks who want to arm us (for a fee, of course).

I for one just love shooting guns. I have a great target pistol that I shoot for fun, and I've been known to get out the bigger guns and go hunting...(sigh noise)...yes, I kill animals and then eat them up (all fodder for other debates, I guess).

This is all just reference info to make the point that I'm probably one of the more sympathetic people to the guys trying to teach about guns, and I am totally against this stupid spamming.

@RIG4DIVE, I'll make sure to never patronize Braverman Arms for any of my weapons-toting needs, and I'll be sure to encourage my fellow shooters to do the same. Jumping in here like this without even a prior "hello" is really uncool.

@Annie, I have a hard enough time figuring out where to keep my U-Lock when I'm riding around, let alone worrying about strapping on a sidearm. Good grief, troll with a better story next time...

@all of you non-hunting, non-shooting folks -- just be patient and these guys will go away...

Man, if only Ortlieb made a boomstick holster for my bike. You know... for the zombies.

For much less than 150 dollars I will teach you

how to ride away fast enough that you will not be

accosted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8HvKnEsto

A random person endorses another random person? I'm sold.

Buy an ad or something folks.

@dwillen: +1

Two words are floating through my head: One is something I put on between my feet and shoes and the other sounds like "muppet"...

Personally, I've shot guns (deer rifle) and have been hit by shrapnel once. (Friends shooting BBs at glass bottles,bottle shattered... I lost quite a bit of blood. Ahh, to be 11 and stupid again.)

I don't like'em, don't own'em, won't own'em. I was a good shot, but the idea of holding something that could so easily go off and take a life just plain ole creeps me out.

I will say that if you are looking for self defense, I do have a friend who runs a systema/ninpo class on a casual basis. I occasionally stop by, and he is a pretty good teacher. If you're interested, drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch.

Or you know... pepper spray... that works too.

This whole situation reminds me of RexKwonDo from Napoleon Dynamite.

"Take a look at what I'm wearing, people. You think anybody wants a roundhouse kick to the face while I'm wearing these bad boys? Forget about it. Last off, my students will learn about self respect. You think anybody thinks I'm a failure because I go home to Starla at night? Forget about it!"

BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!

Grab my arm,other arm,my other arm!

correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think any cyclists who have been held up have died.

that said the best way to survive one of these encounters is to not have a gun, just like what has happened so far.

if you want to kill a kid on the other hand, get a gun and ride around east liberty every night... sounds great... you might even get shot back at!!!!!

Ok this posting is spam and Tom should have properly introduced himself...and this is probably too little too late but i have a family member in law enforcement that introduced me to Tom several years ago. Tom is a certified firearms and self-defense instructor that among other things teaches law-enforcement Act 120 certification. He is a very nice (and very large) person. He most likely did not post his full name for the same reason a lot of people on the site don't provide a name. I DON'T RECOMMEND ANYONE OWN A HAND GUN...but if someone is interested in basic non lethal self defense he is the person you should look up.

Annie Oakley is not new to this board. [link]

I dunno, I think we should be thinking outside the box on this one. In fact, I'm definitely seeing a cycling version of a biathlon here. Awesome!

And, hey, Pittsburgh's perfecftly positioned to take the lead on this. In particular, we already have a firing range right there on our very own Montour Trail! (Near the Coraopolis end; not even a fence or anything, just roll right in and start shooting. Double awesome!!)

You know, I bet this is exactly what Annie and her friends at Bravernman had in mind. They just went about it in the wrong way. (I know, I know, this interwebs stuff is a devil to figure out...)

Would also like to point out (if I'm right) that no tie fighters have been attacked

So if you don't want to get attacked, wear lycra! Nobody wants a roundhouse kick from my bulging quads... or other bulges...

Is that a gun in your lycra, or are you just happy, etc. etc.?

Ha ha

pedals softly but carries a big gun

A U-lock can be used as a weapon, if need be.

A gun cannot be used to lock up a bicycle.

This thread is just an excuse for me to repost this:

hm, but do you also have these available?

now thats my kind of bikes

Hey guys, Mitch here from The East-End Ninja Defense Co-Op.

Are you tired of being assaulted by ninjas when you're just riding around, minding your own business? Are you sick of looking over your shoulder, constantly expecting to see a ninja's boner coming to impale you at break-neck speeds? And who ever wants to spend their days having panic attacks about smelling their delicious ninja sweat?

You have a right to protect yourself against the blurry black-foot menace! Come on down to the Ninja Defense Co-Op and receive FREE instructions on how to give those tree-hopping idiots a run for their money! Maybe you just have to deal with ninjas ruffling up your hair when you finally get it looking nice; maybe you just have to deal with ninjas not wiping down your bike seat after it gets rained on! Nobody wants to walk into work looking like they just had their period!

We teach classes every week on the following topics:

* HOW TO SPOT A NINJA IN EVERYDAY RESTAURANTS (or, NINJAS MAY BE PUTTING THEIR FINGERS IN YOUR HAMBURGER HOMIE)

* FOODS NINJAS HATE PUTTING IN THEIR MOUTHS

* HOW TO AVOID A NINJA WHEN THEY'VE GOT THEIR BONER UP (hint: WALK UP A LADDER!)

* HOW TO THROW NINJA STARS WHILE DOWNSHIFTING

* CHECKING YOUR TIRES FOR ANCIENT SHINTO SPIRITS

* HOW TO INSTALL A BIKE BELL

AND SO MANY MORE!

So stop on by the East End Ninja Defense Co-Op, just off of Penn Avenue. If there aren't enough chairs, well, you know who to blame.

I am a cyclist, a gun owner, a CCW permit holder and one time certified firearms trainer and one of those people who successfully defended myself from near certain death with the appropriate application of a firearm.

I've shopped at Braverman's. Know people at Braverman's and disagree with their signing on here only to hawk their wares.

I also don't agree with the people who characterize the carrying of firearms for self defense as exacerbating the problem. You have never been in the situation where such a thing is the only thing keeping you from being killed. I have. Brandishing a bike lock would not have saved my life. A taser would not have saved my life. Pepper spray would not have saved my life. My martial arts training would not have saved my life. The police station a block away would not have saved my life.

A lot of people ridicule the decision of people to choose to use a firearm to defend themselves, characterizing them as "gun nuts". There are also plenty of mis-characterizations about the safety of firearms for self defense, such as "they are more likely to hurt you accidentally" or "they are more likely to be taken away and used against you". These statements are not supported by the data.

Self defense is a very personal thing. How far you are willing to go to defend yourself from attack is something only you can know and it grates my cheese when people say you shouldn't use one method or another.

Try shooting a ninja with a gun, homie. Those guys would just eat the bullets and turn them into ninja stars!

If you can see 'em to shoot at 'em, they're obviously not really ninja, now are they? Thusly, bullets will work fine.

kordite, you carry a gun while riding?

@reddan - Ah, I see you've played 'Awkward gun rights discussion / ninja / knifey / spoony' before.

I was kind of disappointed to see that this wasn't a very useful thread on how to make yourself less of a target of harassment.

Rubber Factory

You are right. when I get home tonight I will put my thoughts down at least (I already have and i tried to be productive) and I encourage other to do so as well.

RubberFactory: There are plenty of threads dedicated to the subject. If search doesn't turn them up, let me know and I will compile a list.

kordite You have never been in the situation where such a thing is the only thing keeping you from being killed. I have.

Huge assumption on your part. Im sorry you were the victim of a situation, however to assume that somebody cannot be both a victim and anti gun is really naive and insulting.

I would think that a lot of staunch anti gun people are that way because of violent situations they have been in.

I can just imagine the headlines now... "Concealed Carry Cyclists Turn To Guns In Self Defense..."

You think she looks harmless... but she's got an Uzi in that front basket

Oy, Kordite... where to start?

I should first say that I don’t have any particular problem with people owning guns, especially as the 2nd amendment to the Constitution clearly establishes the right to ownership, albeit in the context of “a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...” Who could be against defence of the homeland? And who could object to the Founding Fathers’ crafty thrift in shifting the cost of buying arms to the general populace? Little did they know... But I digress. This is the bike-pgh.org message board and we are here to examine the relationship between guns and bikes.

But first, Kordite, I think many of us are curious about the incident you allude to. What actually happened? Where was this? Who attacked you, and why? Were you cycling?

Maybe you were in one of the services at the time and you had to be there as part of your job? I have a nephew who just got back from Iraq. He has some (scary) stories to tell, and he tells them with enough detail so that you understand what went on, and you can appreciate what he and his comrades had to go through. (We can talk about the war, but let’s not; I’m just happy he’s back in one piece.)

Once we hear about your experience(s), I’d like to hear a bit more about how guns and bikes go together. When I try to think about it, I run into the issue of logistics. Where do you keep that gun? The first place I thought of was the pannier. But this doesn’t seem like a great idea (especially when you’re confronted with something like in that scene from Children of Men where the turned-cannibal townsfolk attack the protagonist on the road [great book, meh movie], or maybe just an evening roll along the ELB). How do you get to the gun in time? Maybe it’s just my problem since I keep so much crap in my pannier. But I imagine everyone would have to stop and rummage a bit, by which time it’d be too late.

Maybe you could stick it in the back pocket of your (lycra, spandex, whatever) jersey, right next to the Clif bars? But I can imagine it bouncing around as you pedal (probably the reason you don’t keep your water bottle there).

You could rig up a holster (or two) on your chest, or maybe Braverman could start selling something that lets you holster a gun on the top tube. Is Pennsylvania an Open Carry state? I don’t really follow that stuff so I’m not sure how this would work.

What do you think? How exactly do guns and cycling fit together? Personally, I think it's "biathlon".

One time I was on the GAP in Myersdale. I was chatting with a retired guy who was former navy seal. After talking for a bit I noticed he had a revolver in a holster on his side. We parted, He hopped on his bike with the revolver on his side.

That is my only experience with guns and bikes. I guess it would be good in a wild bear came running after you.

@Mark, Yes, I carry when I ride.

@Ahlir, OK, the whole story. . . The Rodney King riots had started in Los Angeles on a Wednesday, this was 11:30 on a Friday night and I was riding my bicycle home through Wilkinsburg. One might think that was an inherently bad idea but I rode through Wilkinsburg every day for years without any particular issues and it was essentially the only route home so I had little choice. Besides, the Pittsburgh Media and authorities were assuring everyone continously that "those things" weren't happening here in Pittsburgh.

At South Avenue and Pennwood, I came upon a pair of angry youths, armed with a baseball bat. At the time, I carried a 9mm pistol in a "fanny pack" holster. I normally ride with it to the back and I moved it around to the front. They saw me and I attempted to flee. Given the geometry of the attack I realized that I was not going to be able to out maneuver them on the bike so I attempted to get off the bike so that I could run. Unfortunately, that did not go smoothly and I fell in a tangle of bicycle just where the railroad tracks cross South.

I got up and started running. I could hear their sneakers slapping on the concrete just behind me and realized that I could not outrun them. I drew my pistol and turned.

The one attacker, the one without the baseball bat, was right behind me and I literally had the drawn pistol inches from his face. I ordered him to "Back off."

In that moment, I saw his entire attitude change. He ceased attacking me and just stood there. I again ordered him to back off, and he complied. His partner, with the baseball bat, attempted to flank me and I presented the pistol in his direction to keep him back.

It was about this time that I realized that, in the fall, I had lacerated the index finger and thumb of my right hand. There was blood all over the gun, my shirt, all through the holster.

They backed off and started taunting me, like yappy wolves. If they were going to give me some distance, I was going to attempt to salvage my bike. I moved to the busway entrance and there was someone in a car there that I yelled to them to get help.

"Don't watch. Please, call the police"

That driver just stared but eventually drove off when I got to the other side of the vehicle and my assailants attempted to use the car to flank me again. I ditched the bike and backed up quickly. Within sight of the Wilkinsburg police station, they stole my bike. (They didn't get far because I had screwed it up in the fall.)

I went to the fire station and pounded on the door to get someone. After a fireman stuck his head out the window I realized that I still had the pistol in my hand and thought it would be best to put it away. It was then that I saw that the pistol was in the half-cock position. I had been literally half way through the double action trigger pull when my assailant backed off. A near thing.

The cop who took my statement said I should have shot him. The EMT who bandaged my hand said I should have shot him. I spent the next few hours in the hospital waiting room wondering if I was going to need stitched and watching continuous replays of Reginald Denny getting the shit kicked out of him.

I have no doubt that if I were armed with anything less than a firearm, a taser (which weren't available to the public back then), a stun gun, pepper spray, my fists, I would have been unable to defend myself sufficiently that they would have beaten me until they grew tired of beating me. I also know that if my attacker had done anything other than what he did when I had the gun in his face, it would have taken 4 pounds of pressure and about two-tenths of a second to send a 115grain hollow point through the bridge of his nose at 1100 feet per second and he would have died instantly. As it turned out, we all got to go home that night.

I bristle when people tell me that I should not carry a gun to defend myself because I know that without it I would be dead or, if I was really lucky, merely permanently disabled.

@Kordite I fully support your choice to carry a weapon.

The way I see it, if anyone is going to purposefully attack my life, I will do anything in my power to prevent it--if that means taking their life, I will do it. I don't care if they are a product of a bad situation, or if they are just trouble kids--I will defend my life. Everyone has free will. There is no situation in any of these attackers lives that is forcing them to attack and beat cyclist.

Are guns the long-term solution? I don't think so. If I lived in the concentrated area of attacks, who I consider carrying a weapon? I would.

As for other non-firearm implements of defense, there are a lot of options, and I think anyone concerned about their safety should do some research and find something they are comfortable with, and learn how to properly use it.

Furthermore, I think simply becoming, "less of a target of harassment," is not going to do anything for the problem, and is no more constructive to fixing the problem than talking about guns.

To clarify, I hate seeing that people are being attacked, I don't think violence is the solution, and I would hate to see anyone get killed, but if it were my life or an attacker's, I would not hesitate to use force.

+1 Nick. when i was working for triangle in the late 90s there were more than a few times i or one of the other guys had a gun pulled on them by people in cars.

basically it went like this:

car cuts you off and damn near runs you over so you yell in self defense and anger.

car either screaches to a halt or drives around the block.

driver points gun at you and says somethign to the effect of "what now bitch?!"

fortunately none of these incidents ended in a shooting, but it would not have taken much for any of us to no longer be here.

if i had not gotten a job offer back in ny and so moved, i would have begun carrying too. there was i think a 3 day period where this happened to me and 4 other guys right before i left.

@Kordite - I'm glad you got out of that spot. As you describe it, I can't imagine that ending any way other than very, very badly for you if you had not done exactly what you did.

And to the other victims of these attacks recently and otherwise, I feel very badly for what has happened to you, and I want in no way to diminish what must have been very terrifying and painful experiences. I know when I pass through, or nearby some of these areas where these attacks have happened I have my head on a swivel, and am always very relieved when I am through.

Although I think carrying a gun may not do one much good for many of the circumstances described on this board, I have no problem if someone feels they need to do so to protect themselves. That is their choice, and it is within the law. Whether or not I might think it is effective is immaterial.

For myself, if someone is going to jump out of the shadows, throw a rock at my head, or otherwise intend me terminal harm, then there is not a whole lot I can do about that. It is the hand of god (ask the guy at the Tree Forge, or Don Parker - different circumstances, but similarly unpredictable). How do you prepare for that?

Having a gun in my pannier, fanny pack or wherever isn't going to do me a whole lot of good if I never saw it coming in the first place.

Kordite, the circumstance you described offered you the opportunity to get your weapon handy, dismount and respond. I have the sense that that very narrowly defined type of situation is about the only time that weapon may have come in handy. For most of these other attacks recently, it doesn't sound like they saw it coming, that they would have had that heads-up to get themselves ready and get their weapon out even if they had one.

I don't think there is any satisfactory answer here. Like Nick said, if it comes down to it, any of us would do what we had to do. I guess for myself, I'm not ready to live my life with THAT option handy, and I hope i'm never in the situation where I would need it.

Kordite, the circumstance you described offered you the opportunity to get your weapon handy, dismount and respond. I have the sense that that very narrowly defined type of situation is about the only time that weapon may have come in handy. For most of these other attacks recently, it doesn't sound like they saw it coming, that they would have had that heads-up to get themselves ready and get their weapon out even if they had one.

This goes back to Nick's point about learning how to properly use your chosen defensive option. Whether it be a firearm, pepper spray, or a U-lock, training includes figuring out accessibility issues in advance. The argument about not having time to ready a weapon is very valid, but it applies to pretty much all forms of self defense, not just to firearms.

A weapon, any weapon should be the last line of defense (as it was in Kordite's case) As I have said before I am supporter of Gun rights, I know there have been times when I did carry a gun that simply making it known that a firearm could be brought into play was enough of a deterrent as to calm the situation and allow everyone to go about their day.

Still the first line of defense is (and has to be) an awareness of your situation. We all know that bad things can happen anywhere, but the truth is that we can point to a map and say 'this is a bad area' or 'this is where there has been trouble'. I can go thru the threads and pick out the areas we have all talked about, where cyclist and others have been attacked.

Then it becomes as simple as avoiding the high risk areas or going thru those area and avoiding the high risk times (after dark usually) or going in groups, finding parallel detours that avoid a bad section.

Also being aware of those around you, noticing the two guys on the corner, or the group of teens on bikes. being aware. You have to remember that unless you personally have pissed someone off enough for them to target YOU, then you are being picked because you look like an easy target.

riding alone

looking lost

looking afraid

looking unaware

looking vunerable

all of these things call attention to you and mark you as an easy target.

I believe that these things alone could reduce your chance of being attacked by an order of magnitude.

This is all part of a defense in depth idea

1. be aware of the 'trouble spots' and plan accordingly

2. be aware of your surroundings so as to avoid trouble beforehand

3. Don't present yourself as a target

4. be emotionally willing to defend yourself

5. be prepared to defend yourself

please forgive me if I bounce around as I am putting this together in my mind as I think about it.

But if a ninja attacks you, you better believe that you'll die. They're super fast, super nasty and can back flip so fast, they generate electricity.

They're my number one fear!

@msprout: Thank you (typed after wiping the coffee off my laptop that was just sprayed out of my nose by the laughter).

They're super fast, super nasty and can back flip so fast, they generate electricity.

They're my number one fear!

They'd have to be my #2 fear. I worry more about Chuck Norris. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday.

well if you have Ninjas and/or Chuck Norris after you not much is going to help, just please don't ride near me.

Shrapnel and all, You know.

(what kind of evil person would you have to be to have Ninjas and Chuck Norris after you.... 'He beats puppies, with kittens....')

'underneath his beard is a fist'

They'd have to be my #2 fear. I worry more about Chuck Norris.

When I worry about Chuck Norris, I worry that I'm going to have to listen to him talk about what he thinks.

Chuck Norris vs a Ninja who wins?

Chuck Norris Vs Ninja

We all lose

CHUCKANINJAGEDDON! DOOM! IT IS DOOM I SAY!

Chuck Norris has admitted that some ninjas are tough, as he often finds them undigested in his stools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dwG8mmHsY

Go ahead I dare you

Chuck Norris is a hack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqzQ2qrtBeg

There is a very big difference between short term and long term solutions. In the short term, if attacked, I believe that, if you cannot flee, then you must be prepared to exert the maximum amount of violence upon your attackers as possible. Overwhelming force. The sort of crazed application of excessive violence that will prompt your attackers to cease their aggression and run in terror.

But this is something for the singular moment of the attack. The long term solution is to prevent the attack. Not merely avoiding the area where the attack might occur or suppressing it with increased police presence but actually taking away the reason for the attack. Jobs. Economic development. Community building. Justice. Those sorts of things change people from predators to citizens.

I think dbacklover really has the right idea here.

Changing your habits (routes/behavior) to avoid trouble spots and not make yourself a target is probably the most effective thing you can do to avoid violent confrontation.

But if you can't do that, or if you still don't feel safe enough after you have, I'm not so convinced a gun is the right solution in all cases. If Kordite's closest attacker had been the one with the baseball bat, that situation could have ended very differently. Plus, I think drawing a gun of your own only increases your chances to be shot if your attackers have guns.

(PS, if we all /became/ ninjas, then we wouldn't have to worry about any attackers except Chuck Norris!)

Kordite, wise words, you must not watch much t.v.

Someone also mentioned a navy guy on the trail with a pistol?

I saw a guy when we were camping once who had a pistol on his side in a decorative, embossed leather holster. It was very non-threatening and seemed to be a good way of presenting an open carry without making other people uncomfortable.

I think drawing a gun of your own only increases your chances to be shot if your attackers have guns.

This probably used to be true. So did "resisting hijackers will just get everyone killed, go along with them, they only want to get to Cuba."

But I'm less and less convinced that it's still true. I'm beginning to think that if your attackers have guns, you're probably going to get shot whether you're armed or not.

"But I'm less and less convinced that it's still true. I'm beginning to think that if your attackers have guns, you're probably going to get shot whether you're armed or not."

It's the "...if your attackers have guns..." part that is starting to bug me. Over the course of the last several weeks, we have gone from apparent random acts of violence against some cyclists to terrorists hijacking airplanes.

It seems like this thread has lost all sense of context. And humor has failed, unfortunately.

"If your attackers have guns..." then give them what they want. If they want to kill you, they are going to kill you. But when has anyone ever heard of armed gunmen targeting cyclists? What cyclist has anything worth stealing on their person while they are riding a bike?

A commuter might have a laptop, an i pod - fine, hand it over. But are we going to base our expectations of the humanity that we MIGHT encounter on a bike ride on some paranoid delusion that every dark conner is sheltering a gun-wielding psychopath hell bent on... on... on what? Robbing me?

Really? So I should get myself a gun, get all trained up on it on the off chance THAT might happen? Really?

Rodney King was pre-OJ, right. What was that, 1993? THAT WAS 17 YEARS AGO!

Sorry to holler, but let's try and keep some perspective here. The sky may fall tomorrow, but that doesn't mean i'm getting a titanium umbrella tonight. Unless Chuck Norris thinks it's the thing to do.

It’s obvious that Chuck Norris has no equal but I have pondered some difficult matches that could give Mr. Norris difficulties:

Chuck Norris vs Oprah Winfrey

Oprah is a very strong willed and compelling lady. She persuades Chuck Norris to sit down and talk. After a 45 min conversation she convinces him that his life style is destructive and he needs to pay more attention to his wife. Chuck promises to change, signs up for her book club, and then Oprah gives him a Pontiac- advantage Oprah

Chuck Norris vs Tommy Lee (the drummer from Motley Crue)

The exploits and movies of Chuck Norris are obviously well known, but so are the videos and exploits of Tommy Lee! As a mutual sign of respect Chuck Norris spares Tommy Lee any embarrassment- advantage Tommy Lee

Chuck Norris vs iPhone 4

No contest, Chuck Norris destroys the phone with just a glance, it never had a chance. Although Steve Jobs believes there is no such thing as bad publicity and sends out a press release stating that Chuck Norris was holding the phone incorrectly. He then proceeds to give everyone 1 free download on iTunes and the sales of the phone continue to increase- Advantage iPhone 4

Chuck Norris vs Sponge Bob Square Pants

Sponge Bob Square pants is a sponge who lives in a Pineapple under the sea. This is a distinct tactical advantage. Nothing in Chuck Norris’s extensive training has prepared him for this situation. Not to mention it’s almost impossible to hurt a sponge with a roundhouse kick or punch- Advantage Sponge Bob Square pants.

Shaq vs Chuck Norris

Shaq vs is really a bad TV show but Chuck Norris fears no man and decides to shows up and teaches Shaq a painful lesson. He beats the snot out of Shaq and makes him beg for mercy on prime time television. Unfortunately this is not enough for the network to cancel the show and it’s renewed for another season- advantage Shaq vs

Steel is real! BB30 will take over the world! Ceramic bearings will win you races! 3/16" cogs are lame, use 1/4"! Mustache bars suck. All fixed-gear bicycles should have exactly one brake -- no, make that one break. *You* should wear a helmet.

Oh, never mind.

Guys, can we please shift the discussion back to ninjas?

Fenders, check. Mudflaps, check. Rear rack that's as strong as the bike itself, check. Self-defense mechanism that's bigger than either bike or rider, check.

Anything else we forgot? OK, let's roll.

EDIT: Oh right, thanks, msprout, the rack is where the ninja rides.

Self-defense mechanism that can double as a means of propulsion ("equal and opposite reaction" FTW), priceless.

Giving a child an AK-47 is just bad parenting. The "S" version with the folding shoulder stock would be so much more suitable for biking.

Now remember not everyone can afford the really good guns and have to rely on GSO's

Back on topic...

Unfortunately plenty of the kids in E Lib are packing which is why showing up with a gun is not going to change the game whatsoever.

what sarah_q said. i hear gunshots fairly often.

I am usually the one with the twisted sense of humor, but I guess it's just my turn to be the humorless git.

What you're looking at there is an abused child. Cultures that use child soldiers are sick societies.

So, sure, more power to you if you can find some humor in it, but don't forget that that kid has probably endured more horror than you can imagine.

...and Lyle's probably on to the truth about the kids in EL. Their own private hells are as real to them as the girl on the bike above.

Only slightly off topic: There's a series of novels in the teen fiction section by L.A. Meyer called "Bloody Jack" (name of 1st book). It's about a girl in 1800 London who grew up on the streets, lived with a gang under a bridge, then chose to disguise herself as a boy and join the Royal Navy. Tangles with pirates, gets the crap beat out of her a couple times, shoots people, almost raped, y'know, normal kid stuff. But it is a really fun read. Not kidding. (Extended Pittsburgh scene in Book 5, if you get that far.)

@Lyle:

Agreed with your stance on child soldiers but you're making a big assumption about the context of that photo.

I didn't find any information about it, just the pic.

There are plenty of cultures in the world where it's not out of the ordinary for young people to carry around a weapon while they help the family herd livestock etc. The fact that it's a big ole' AK doesn't necessarily mean anything other than whatever country that is was once occupied by the Soviets.

OR, it is a child soldier and we should be ashamed to make light of the photo. Your guess is as good as mine but you can't really tell from that photo alone and neither can I.

FWIW, that photo appears in a gallery of child soldier photos here:

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/silent-warriors-child-soldiers-armed-conflict

(Is this the message board version of that awkward silence where everybody waits in acute discomfort until someone changes the subject?)

That picture was taken right before Chuck Norris rescued her and a nice family in Beverly Hills adopted her.

Back to the topic at hand:

Some people wear Superman pajamas. Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. Chuck Norris wears Jens Voigt pajamas. (Source: jensvoigtfacts.com.)

Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker

weelllll, I guess that about answers the question Steven. Lyle, you were clearly right.

sweet, when you get knocked unconscious off of your bike, there will be another gun floating around the hood!

if you pull your gun out and you haven't fired a shot within a few milliseconds, i'd expect you're going to get your ass shot with your own gun too!

fuck guns.

Huge +1 johnwheffner.

There are few instances of citizens carrying their guns for self defense having them taken away and used against them. This myth is based on the very few instances of cops having their guns taken and being used against them, an event more prevalent in movies and TV than in real life.