BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

@gsinn: I'd suggest that, for a commuting bike, anything that carries you and your stuff in comfort is perfectly practical. Nothing wrong with a comfort bike, if it works for you.

That said, there are ways to address neck problems whilst cycling.

You could always get a bike fit at UPMC sports medicine.

I haven't had a fit with them (been meaning to), but my understanding is they can help you find a good fit taking all of your priorities (comfort, efficiency, speed (or not), long term health) into account.

I don’t have any specific advice other than for me I actually have less neck strain using drop-bars than either straight or upright bars. I don’t know if it’s the angle of my spine or the fact that you have multiple hand positions, but I would experiment with different bars and fit first. Besides, new bars are probably cheaper than a new bike. +1 on a bike fit regardless of whether you get a new bike/ bars or keep your current setup.

I do my share of long-distance stuff, and neck/shoulder soreness is a problem I experience for a few weeks at the start of each season.

Handlebar height has at least something to do with it. I've had best luck with bars set very slightly below the saddle...no more than 1 cm. This is a balancing act, really. Bars too low means neck soreness and more pressure placed on hands. Bars too high means no neck soreness, but extra pressure on the sit-bones. Of course, this all depends on how long your torso and arms are.

At times I suspect that I should switch to glasses with larger lenses. Glasses slide down, even a little bit, and I find myself craning my neck to compensate.

At times I also find myself trying to correct poor posture. I tend to ride with my shoulders tensed up, which I think contributes to neck issues.

I also believe that drop bars are the way to go. Switch up the hand positions now and then. If your neck gets sore, you can switch from riding on the hoods/drops to riding on the flats by the stem.

As someone who is dealing with neck issues right now, the core of your issue may not be the position on the bike, but rather, that position exacerbates another issue (this is my problem).

And, Dan is correct--the bike that works best for you is probably the best bike for you.

I agree with the bike fit

But if you have a forward posture (on a bike or just poor sitting posture) and also look ahead the cervical curve is exaggerated. Do that for a while, combined with looking side to side=pain. For management, I would suggest finding a physical therapist friend who knows how to do a suboccipital release and some manual traction. There may also be some other areas of concern but this technique is a heavenly feeling after a long ride.

@gsinn One setup that does seem to allow good posture is the 'comfort bike,' where the handlebars are higher than the seat. This lets you sit upright and keep your neck aligned, and still see where you are going - but the 'comfort bike' just doesn't seem practical for commuting in PGH.

I do all my around town stuff with a bike, commute, whatever. I use the high handlebars approach.

Very early on in my cycling I gave up drops. It's one thing to have your legs or your lungs hurt whenever you're done with a climb. It's another if after every moderate climb, your neck hurts.

At this point, I'm sliding towards crank forward bikes.

Maybe I'll cross over to the 'bent side.

I'm thinking that when I gave up drops, if I had a good fitting, it might have changed my mind about them.

Also, neck stretches are good.

These seem good:

http://ptclinic.com/medlibrary/pdf/178.pdf

(I've been told people should be very careful about lateral neck stretch. At the time I talked with docs and PTs about this, lateral flexions were not recommended - but that was last century and all the sites seem to have a lateral flexion exercise or two, now)

The rotation exercises are particularly good for being able to look behind yo while riding.

Edmonds recommended (rightly, IMO)practicing panic stops in a safe place. The otehr thiung is to do roation neck stretches, then practice looking behind you while riding in a straight line. I think that's and important skill, even if you have mirrors.

It's all fitness.

Do you think the pros who ride 1000+ miles/week do it on a cruiser bike and then only ride with a big saddle-to-bar drop when they race?

Slam that stem, and don't whine.

I've wondered about how many aspiring pro's have had to drop out because of neck problems.

I'm guessing the number isn't trivial - that is one seriously unatural posture there.

I would suspect that many PROs have regular chiropractic treatment to keep things functioning, too.

Of course, it also goes back to dmtroyer's suggestion: get a proper bike fit. And get a bike that fits.

I think the most telling statement made (that I find to be true as well) is that it hurts in the beginning of the season but doesn't a month or two into it.

You can't reasonably expect the most comfortable position when starting out to be the most optimal position in the end. If that were the case, laying on the couch would be the most optimal and we'd all be blobs with no muscles.

Your body needs time to adapt. Keep at it.

It all depends on the kind of riding. Look at the photo at the start of this article about Race Across America:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/sports/cycling/in-cycling-race-across-america-sleep-is-shunned.html

No slammed stem there.

(Or just google image search RAAM if the pay-wall is keeping you out)

Let me know the next time you attempt a 3000 mile ride.

There's a larger point here: sure, you can get used to two feet of drop between your saddle and bars, particularly if you were fitted professionally. But...do you really need two feet (or even one foot) of drop for your style of riding?

from wsh5232 article Goldstein completed the race in just over 11 days despite dealing with Shermer’s Neck, a painful condition that afflicts many ultracyclists who spend upwards of 22 hours a day hunched over their bikes and makes it difficult to keep their head up.

@ brian j you can get used to two feet of drop between your saddle and bars,

Maybe some people could, I guess. I couldn't. I believe some of the people that "get used to it" would eventually end up with irreversable and painful neck conditions. ("Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.") Sorry, brian, I know you weren't defending that kind of drop, but I felt the need to mention this.

Remember - true love comes and goes, spine injuries are forever.

I don't know of any cyclists that have quit due to neck complications, do you? Lower back, yes, knee, yes, hip, yes, neck? That's stretching.

I quit for a decade because of neck problems.

But to be honest, no, other than me, I dont' know of anyone.

[Edit to add] a quick goggle search yeilds this (for mountain biking):

http://www.roag.co.za/tips-and-info/common-overuse-injuries-1.aspx

Recent research lists the most common anatomical sites for overuse injuries associated with cycling as; neck (48.8%), knee (41.7 %), buttock (36.1%), hands (31.1%) and lower back (30.3%).

I'm not claiming to have any authority on ultra-cycling (my best accomplish is CtC in 34 hours, so that's far from RAAM level), but if you look at the photos and videos, RAAM riders appear to ride with handlebars set at a higher level than you'd see in other shorter, faster events where speed and aerodynamics are more important than comfort. Even then they still battle with neck issues. So I think the take-away is to set up your bike in whatever way is comfortable for you and lets you succeed in your cycling goals.

I know of quite a few people who went recumbent due to neck problems.

In most cases, it coincided with advancing age; the common story is "I'd been riding my road bike for 20+ years, but just couldn't deal with the pain on long rides anymore."

[ETA:]So I think the take-away is to set up your bike in whatever way is comfortable for you and lets you succeed in your cycling goals. That.

There's a larger point here: sure, you can get used to two feet of drop between your saddle and bars, particularly if you were fitted professionally. But...do you really need two feet (or even one foot) of drop for your style of riding?

Most everyone can benefit from a position with a fair bit of drop in it. Better hamstring engagement, lower center of gravity, better aerodynamics. Unless you need to be on your bike for more than 14 hours at a time, what's not to like?

If you truly have physical disabilities that make achieving a lower position impossible, that's rather unfortunate. But for 99.9% of the riders out there, there is a tangible benefit within their grasp. Whether you choose to get there is up to you.

@Rice rocket .. 99.9% of the riders out there...

I'm calling bullshit, dude. You are just pulling all your stuff out of a very bad-smelling dark place.

what's not to like?

Neck problems.

You're right.

It's 99.9995%.

Better hamstring engagement, lower center of gravity, better aerodynamics

I'm convinced. 99.9995% of cyclists need to optimize said factors.

Idunno Dan, that neck position looks uncomfortable...

Try it, you'll like it.

@ rice rocket It's 99.9995%.

The farther you go up there, the bigger the numbers get. I'm a statistician, I know how these things work.

The whole stem-slamming thing is a relatively new phenomenon. Did people not know how to fit bikes back in the olden days? Clearly, Roger de Vlaeminck had it all wrong:

The correct height of one's stem is directly proportional to the length of one's sideburns. This is Bike Fit 101 stuff, people.

(BTW, to the OP: I hope we haven't scared you away.)

Bars had deeper drops back then, and shorter head tubes.

There's an overlay pic of Contador's bike vs someone in the 70s, and their contact points are pretty identical.

Edit: here ya go.

http://ruedatropical.com/2010/06/bike-fit-from-coppi-to-contador/

That's a good point. Bikes these days only come in a few sizes rather than every couple of centimeters.

Gotta get that stiffness to weight ratio higher!

"One setup that does seem to allow good posture is the 'comfort bike,' where the handlebars are higher than the seat. This lets you sit upright and keep your neck aligned, and still see where you are going - but the 'comfort bike' just doesn't seem practical for commuting in PGH."

I think the earlier comments about knowing the purpose of your ride were correct. Personally, if I want to ride to get a workout, I'll hop on a bike with drop handlebars, a jacked-up ass-hatchet, and a slammed stem. But if I'm riding to work, or to get beer/groceries/etc, I'll hop on my Schwinn cruiser with its fat saddle and rising handlebars. I think most aspiring racers would agree that a short trip to the grocery store is all "garbage miles" anyway, so why not sit up and take it slow? That said, if you have a long commute (and maybe a place to shower at the end of it), go ahead and get into the drops and crank the tempo.

Basically, it's all a matter of personal preference. If you don't mind a slower ride, a "comfort" bike can be a great commuter (I had to change the gearing on mine to account for the PGH terrain, but it works well). If you like to try and keep pace with the cars on the road, put some panniers and fenders on your racing bike and slam that stem! Either way, just make sure your bike fits you.

chin tucks:

good exercise for tight muscles

makes you look silly while performing

I haven't done any searching but I imagine it's simple enough to google

I think the earlier comments about knowing the purpose of your ride were correct. Personally, if I want to ride to get a workout, I'll hop on a bike with drop handlebars, a jacked-up ass-hatchet, and a slammed stem. But if I'm riding to work, or to get beer/groceries/etc, I'll hop on my Schwinn cruiser with its fat saddle and rising handlebars. I think most aspiring racers would agree that a short trip to the grocery store is all "garbage miles" anyway, so why not sit up and take it slow? That said, if you have a long commute (and maybe a place to shower at the end of it), go ahead and get into the drops and crank the tempo.

Do you guys really ride in different positions depending on where you're going and how fast you want to get there? That's analogous to having different seating positions depending on whether you're watching a movie or just watching the news.

I understand the resistance to building your neck muscles to the point where you can ride all day like that (yeah, it hurts for a little bit), but your optimum position on a bike doesn't change according the to task at hand. Roads are roads are roads are roads, no?

Edit: I will say that my mountain bike is setup slightly differently (lower saddle, a little more setback), but that's so I can avoid getting smacked in the balls and to give me more room to move my weight around. The road bike and commuter are identical in contact points in relation to the bottom bracket (or at least as close as possible with off the shelf parts, I think I'm a few mm shorter in reach on the commuter because of the seat tube angle).

Do you guys really ride in different positions depending on where you're going and how fast you want to get there? That's analogous to having different seating positions depending on whether you're watching a movie or just watching the news.

Well, no. I ride different BIKES depending on where I'm going and what I'm hauling, and my different bikes mandate different positions.

It's more analogous to using a different chair when I'm eating dinner than when I'm slouched in front of the TV...different situations are better suited to different approaches.

I've found that my "optimal position" is very different when, for example, I'm hauling my son's Trail-A-Bike (narrow drop bars suck, wide flat bars give better leverage for control) than when I'm just out for a spin. And that was on the same bike, just swapping out handlebars and stem.

YMMV, of course. But I've not found the One True Fit that applies to all bikes and all situations, even disregarding my penchant for less-traditional velocipedes.

Well, no. I ride different BIKES depending on where I'm going and what I'm hauling, and my different bikes mandate different positions.

You mean you don't drape yourself over the 'bent and hand-cycle it?

You mean you don't drape yourself over the 'bent and hand-cycle it?

Not while sober, no.

@ Rice Rocket I admire your dedication to slamming but it takes a lot of saddle time to reach that position. It's not for everyone. And while you're right that modern positions are much like older positions there are clearly a lot of people (tons of amateurs, Andy Schleck) who set up their slammed positions and can't ever reach the drops. And the photo of the bike above is from a guy 6'7". Pretty extreme.

I'm not seeing a price listed on the UPMC bike fit page, and that scares me.

I ride different BIKES depending on where I'm going and what I'm hauling, and my different bikes mandate different positions.

Exactly. I couldn't take a family of four on a two-week road trip in my Enzo, but I could definitely do that in my Canyonero; different vehicles for different purposes and each requires different posture.

@dave $10 discount for bikepgh members, four years ago it was $75/65.

I use many different positions.

Is this where I post my saddle to bar drop to impress people?

12.5 cm

You know what they say about guys with a large saddle to bar drop. At least steve k does.

You know what they say about guys with a large saddle to bar drop.

They're good at bending over?

I think that after the 200k a few weeks ago, my neck and shoulders were the most sore. I made a conscious effort to move my arms behind my back every 20-30 miles and change hand positions often, but I have a feeling that it is gonna be really painful after CtC, just because it is something I am not used to.

I got my bike fitted by Matt at UPMC. I got the fancy fit, and It was $175 I think. The saddle height adjustment was probably the most beneficial. It seemed to help with everything else.

I can't imagine slamming the stem down. It looks so uncomfortable. If anything, I have had to stack spacers.

5.5cm but it looks proportional.

Neck and shoulder problems can also come from too stretched out a position. Even the right bar height with too long a stem causes you to roll your shoulders out to make up the extra length.

FWIW I send my clients to Todd at Pro Bikes.

BTW Mick, if you are ever able to get that busker thing going, you should definitely call yourself "Bicycle Neck".

@stefb : It's talk like that that makes me hesitant to do anything longer than a century...

Although I will say that at my level, combination of a bike fitting and regular yoga classes (to build core strength as well as flexibility) did the trick.

I also got the shortest stems ever made on my bikes. My light batteries are longer than my stems

I rode the crush the commonwealth last year (two 17 hour/200 mi days, back to back) with the following set up.

Nitto Technomic stem that puts the handlebars 1-3cm ABOVE the saddle nose.

yes, this does increase the sit bone pressure (but relieves the neck pressure), however when combined with a Brooks-type saddle (they have generous sit bone accommodation).

i rode nearly the entire CTC in the "drops" position of the handlebars. I have a long, stem (120mm) due to the drop bars, but this set up (high stem/brooks) works well with mustache bars (but you need to use a very small length reach stem, 80-90mm).

Willie, sounds like the classic Riv setup.

yes, I'd be not fully honest if I did not mention I read that article about 6-7 years ago.

however, when I first set the bike up I went with a traditional height stem and rode it a few years that way.

after switching to the RIV set-up, I've enjoyed it more. this has been for about a year now.