BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

You get what you pay for with off-the-shelf wheels.

It may be worth spending the cash on a decent hub/rim combo, and have a reputable builder lace it for you. I'm pretty sure you could get that done for less than you've spend on the cheap wheels over the last few years.

Something like a Salsa Delgado rim with a decent Shimano hub, build up with good spokes by an experienced builder might cost you $150, but it would be worth it.

Say, the Handspun Pavement Series 5.1 Rear Wheel 700c 36h Shimano LX / Velocity Dyad / DT Champion All Silver is $150.95 at Harris Cyclery. The wheel is machine-built but hand-tuned. 36 spokes should give you enough strength.

$35 dollar wheels from Kraynick's are only going to get you so far.

The freewheel is going to limit you to only a few pre-built wheels, but there are much stronger options available for not much more money.

Find a shop that is willing to get you on a quality double-wall rim and name brand spokes.

$35 wheels are only meant to last a year.

*posted before obligitory Aerospoke comments.

I bought a set of Mavic touring wheels with XT hubs from Thick and they have never so much as come out of true.

Larry builds a strong wheel. i have a set he built me that have been on 3 different mountain bikes, two of them freeride/downhill bikes, over 5 years and there is a slight wobble in the rear from when a 300+ pound friend smashed the rim into the front of a wooden deck feature at speed. other than that completely true.

These are all helpful, thanks. So what makes a strong wheel strong?

Beefier spokes?

More spokes?

Is there something about the rim or hub that prevents spoke breakage?

high quality spokes, double walled rims (think tubular steel vs angle iron), proper tensioning (even and tight!) and brass nipples.

Also, more spokes.

Hehe....nipples

Who's Larry? And how do I contact him?

thick bikes. tell chris or adam you're a friend of mine and i recommended that you have him build your wheels.

obligatory peter white link. that's a single article on that web page about wheels. if you look at the various components he sells, he explains what he thinks about most of them and why they're good for what they do. very verbose.

basically, what other people are telling you: a decent stiff double-walled rim, half-decent set of hubs, good name-brand spokes (dt swiss or wheelsmith are the usual names), and a quality built wheel, and you should be able to go years without worrying about wheel maintenance, even while carrying loads. and you don't need to spend more than like $150-200 for a set.

also, stiffer rims and more spokes lead to a better load-carrying ability. still, i doubt that's really your problem.

Bob at Iron City got me a 40 spoke back wheel after I broke a couple of spokes. I haven't had a problem since them and that was a few years ago.

RE: Mr. White. His rant about "DT Certification" is delightfully ironic.

That said, he's smart feller, and his advice is good.

high quality spokes are important. the default ones gerry will give you are very inexpensive and a very high gauge/small diameter.

A good builder makes a good wheel.

It's more about being able to having good, even spoke tensions and making the right compromises when you can't be exactly even.

If you're breaking spokes at that rate, I bet your spoke tension is way too low.

summation :

- STRAIGHT GAUGE - stainless spokes (DT, etc)

- BRASS nipples - not aluminum, apparently some shops charge extra for brass

- 36 spokes

- large flange hub, 3 cross pattern. gives shortest spoke vs strength

- *IF* you still break spokes - tie and, optionally, solder the spokes at the last crossing (nearest the rim). Tie-ing involves wrapping wire (copper or steel) around the spoke crossing to stop the spoke from flexing/moving. Soldering insures that nothing moves.

have them built 3x drive, 2x non-drive for good measure

Curious why would you go 2x NDS?

Optimum lacing pattern is a function of spoke angle (and thus # of spokes). Whether it's DS or NDS, 36 spoke should be laced 3x (or 4x w/ really low flanges) to achieve good spoke angles that are near tangential to the hub.

Functionally, 0x, 1x, 2x, 3x or 4x have a LOT more to do with the forces that a wheel will handle and spoke length.

0x (radial) spoke pattern gives best vertical (here defined as forces applied through the rim directed at the hub) strength and stiffness, as well as reducing weight, as this is the absolutely shortest spoke length.

BUT this has a major failure point which is horizontal (defined here as forces applied perpendicular to the plane of the wheel - forces pushing along the hub's axle) force resistance. Radial patterned wheels have no (very little) ability to accept side loads. This is why you will almost never see a radial rear wheel - it can not handle the side loads placed on the wheel by the driving forces.

As the number of crosses increases 1x 2x etc the ability for the wheel to accept horizontal load increases. However, as the number of crosses increase the spoke length increases too. Longer spokes = more weight, and more flex.

Also, as the number of crosses increases the ability of the wheel to accept vertical forces decreases, the spokes are flexing, and the spokes are no longer transferring these forces directly through the hub to the axle but are applying these forces tangentially to the hub.

The general rule, with standard spokes, newer spoke attachment mechanisms and one piece wheel design changes this.

Rear wheels, 3x or 4x. 4x makes a 'softer' wheel which is better for touring, 3x for stiffer wheel you *can* get away with 2x on the non drive side, but you will often find that the wheel will need more maintenance (trueing). Also, if you are a heavier rider, or are going to load the wheel/bike, such as touring with panniers, don't do 2x on the rear.

For the front wheel, you can reduce the crossing pattern all the way down to radial, but, by doing so you are going to decrease the ability of the wheel to handle side loads - so if you are touring, front panniers, are a heavier rider or are going to apply other loads 2x is safer. For Off-road use 2x would, to me, be a minimum because it is too easy to apply unexpected side loads.

Personally - I usually build wheels for my own use as 3x or 4x.

Wheels don't usually (ever?), have more then 4x there are a few reasons. spoke length starts to increase, the angle that the spoke has to leave the hub starts to cross over the spoke head (hub anchor point) of other spokes, and the wheel become too 'soft'.

2x (or less) non-drive can even out spoke tension in highly dished rear wheels. I'd avoid radial unless the hub manufacturer acknowledges that it can be done.

On hubs with high flanges, 2x can effectively give the same tangential angle as 3x on a smaller flanged hub, so it is sometimes used.

Edit: that said, out of the several dozen wheels I've built for my own and others' use, I've only ever done 2x non-drive one time, on a lower-spoke-count tubular wheel. So it's more of a theoretical advantage; a well-built wheel with enough spokes is durable. (period)

Woah lotsa info! Thanks guys, more than I ever knew about wheelbuilding.

I'm leaning towards the Mavic A319s or A719s that rsprake mentioned - they seem the best balance between cost and durability.

And I've been wanting to do this for a while - I think I'ma switch to a cassette and ditch my freewheel.

So by all means, keep the cool wheelbuilding info coming but I have two big remaining questions:

1. Shimano LX versus XT hubs: any significant differences that i would notice, esp. maintenance-wise?

2. Squeezing a 9-speed cassette hub into 6-speed freewheel dropouts (in my case, 1980 schwinn world traveller (edit: think it's 126 mm)): does this work? Anyone have any anecdotes?

Someone knowledgeable already says it should be no big deal, and from my former bike I'm no stranger to having to muscle the drops apart a little before squeezing the wheel in, but I wanted to get a Nth opinion that this is going to work before I order a $180 wheel.

9-speed cassette hubs aren't necessarily wider than 6-speed because the chain is narrower. You want to measure the dropout width on you bike and then use that as a guide to choosing a hub. You can spread the rear dropouts a little to fit a wider hub if you need to.

Edit: BTW there's all kinds of wheelbuilding info at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html.

Requisite link to Sheldon Brown instructions on rear dropout spreading. On steel World Traveller frame, indeed, not a Big Deal;

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

edit; bruced!

Nine speed hubs are spaced 130mm road, 135 mountain. So, LX or XT will probably require that you widen the frame rear spacing.

XT has better bearing sheilding than LX. It's probably the best bang for the buck hub as it's often on sale online somewhere too.

A719 is a great rim. Mine's still doing mountain service after surviving a car wreck.

@alnilam

I used to be in your situation too. I'm notorious for carrying lots of crap on my rack and I made the mistake of buying that $35 dollar wheel

Go to Thick and ask Larry to build you a wheel. I think you can get a decent one for about $250. Then to go Kraynicks and widen your dropout for modern sizing. I'm assuming you have a steel frame.

Rather than ordering two hohum wheels, I recommend dropping the cash on one solid hand-built rear-wheel. My front wheel is from freewide.

It's a little out of true now, but I think that's because of those stupid several inch cutouts they put downtown on BLVD of the Allies. (which I didn't notice at first and I don't even think they were marked like they are now)

What if Thick says they're going to order the wheel hand-built from a wheel specialist elsewhere, and then give it a final, post-shipping tune-up in house? Cause that's what they said for the particular rim I'm looking at (mavic A319 or A719). Figure it's still okay though.

What matters is that if there is something wrong with the workmanship of a complete wheel, ordered by Thick and tuned-up, they will get it fixed with minimal hassle.

Ordering the wheel will save you money, and as long as they stand by it, that's the best way to go.

My last wheel was from handspun via my LBS. I went with the DT Swiss TK 540 (XT hub) and am very happy with it. I have LX hubs on my other bike and I'm equally happy with those.

I think the XT has better seals than the LX, but it's hard to tell from one model year to the next. You really need to investigate the series number more so than the hierarchy. They are close enough in quality that I'd just go with whatever the best deal is. Either will last a long time if you get them adjusted at a reasonable interval.

Lose weight. Problem solved.

p4nh4ndle

Simple way to handle this -

drive side spokes are 2mm shorter then non-drive side this 'auto dishes' the wheel.

Dish - is the centering of the rim over the center of the axle rather then center of the hub. On the rear wheel, more of the axle is exposed on the right side, so the center of the axle is not the same as the center of the hub.

If you use spokes of the same length, the drive side spokes usually need about 1 full turn of the spoke nipple more then the left side to get the dish correct - this is on a 6 speed freewheel/cassette hub. This can be more if the spacing on the axle is even greater, such as with 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes.

This is why I don't discuss bicycle mechanics on the internet.

I never thought these wheels would hold up, and they do scare me on long distances since the spokes for them are almost impossible to find anymore without paying out the NOSE on ebay ($10 each or more) — but the Shimano straight-spoked Rh-550 wheelset I have on my touring bike are super strong.

I CONSTANTLY ride this bike loaded up long distances, have slammed the back wheel into potholes, etc etc and have at least a few thousand miles on them, and the worst that has ever happened is the rear goes a bit out of true once in awhile after heavy abuse.

I just rode to D.C. Labor Day weekend on them carrying at least 40lbs in my Panniers, and I weigh over 200lbs (heavier than the recommended weight on these wheels) and other than some spoke tension settling noise when I first took off from my house, without any adjustments I only had a slight wobble when I got to D.C., easily trued when I got home.

The fact there are no bends in the spokes from the rim to the hub are the main reason they are so strong. I am always scared that my 20 spoke rear and 16 spoke front are the WRONG choice for multi-day long distance rides due to the sheer unavailibility of replacement spokes but I have never had to replace one. I slammed into a pothole super hard once on a 400 mile ride, enough to cause me the need to open up my rear brakes really wide — and still never bothered to true them up on the ride itself and once I got home, trued them up and they held up until the next time I royally abused them.

Might be worth looking into. I also have read people complaining about the same wheels online that they CONSTANTLY break spokes but I've never broken any of them.

"This is why I don't discuss bicycle mechanics on the internet."

Too much ballast? LOL