BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

that is a shame. i have no idea what to do. i live in morningside and i like to use the bike lanes at the end of my usual ride. my husband has told me that he doesn't want me riding over there, especially at night. it really is a shame that i can't utilize bike lanes because of this reason.

going to dowd is a good idea. more of a police presence may help. or that helmet cam idea from another thread may be a good idea. but not everyone can afford to get one/should have to wear one. but in the event that this happens again, at least there would be proof and maybe the people could be caught.

Thanks for posting this Caitlin. This is so scary. I think we should organize a take back the night style ride where we just ride up and down ELB and make sure there is a ton of media there. Everyone who has been on this street have just been minding their own business, riding their bikes which is the most fightening aspect of it all.

I can't help but wonder if the people who attacked him were involved in the murder 15 minutes later at Negley and Rippey?

i am for a take back the night style ride

I like that idea, Scott. Ugh this super sucks, but I'm super glad Justin's alright. This area is really sketch. I live nearby and have to ride through it constantly. Such pre-teen mongrels in training have jumped in front of my bike on more than one occasion (during rush hour at that) to give me a good scare. I'm not sure if I am more upset by the fact that this shit happens or at the why behind it. What instigates such genuinely cruel activity?

Great idea, Scott. I am rarely out that way, but I am definitely down.

i was thinking of a take back the night style ride too. also, here is some info about upcoiming council to go and zone 5 safety meetings... both of which i am out of town for.

Of course, people are more than welcome to come to Council to Go (next one in Highland Park is this Thursday @ 6:30pm - check the District 7 fb page for all the details), but the most important thing is to get word to the police.

The next Zone 5 Public Safety meeting is Tuesday, June 8th at 7pm at the Union Project. We were told at a recent community meeting that the police had some leads on a group of young teens that have been committing these random acts (not just against bicyclists), and I will be curious if there is an update. I am sure that any information your friend can give will be helpful.

I'm going on vacation on Friday for a week so if we're going to do this we should do it soon (Wednesday?) or wait until the week of the 14th. Or you can just do it without me. Advocacy can definitely happen (and should happen) without my presence.

I'm in for a ride as well. I've never been attacked by bike, but I've had kids throw rocks at my car on stanton. I try to avoid driving/riding around there whenever possible.

I;m gonna be out of town or else i would oganize this. I come back on the 11th, so if nothing has happened by then I will try to do it. I know there are a lot of us who need to use ELB all the time, and who live nearby, as well as those of us who just want to ride without fear of this sort of thing. Are there other locations that this happens in that we should also hit on a ride?

Justin's going to be off his bike for a while I think.... broken collar bone and scapula.

Of course I'll participate if it fits my schedule... wednesdays are good.

Maybe we should contact Mary Robb Jackson? She has recently heard that cyclists get harassed on the road (and seemed to "get it") but this is tangible evidence. I don't have any contact information for her, but I know someone associated with the Ride of Silence does.

Is it possible to ask the police to put up security cameras in this area?? I've also rode around this vicinity and have felt quite uncomfortable by getting unpleasant looks and stared at.I purposely try not to look back at them to avoid a confrontation.I try not to bike on E.L.B. and feel much safer driving on that road instead.I get angry though,because these teens and young adults intimidate me and others when I have to take a detour to avoid biking on this road.Lets get security cameras, and signs stating there's security cameras, on this road!!

The area could certainly be made safer through improved lighting and such. It just makes me wonder.. what would drive these kids to attack cyclists? Must be emblematic of some kind of frustration or prejudice. It is that prejudice that I think needs to be addressed by the community itself.

I have Mary Robb's contact info.

I think a big part of it is that cyclists are emblematic, in their minds and unfairly of course, of the gentrification that is happening all over the east end. It's really hard to beat up an idea or big organization but it's really easy to beat up a vulnerable part of what they percieve to be hurting their community. I can only speak of Garfield personally, but I have daily meaningfull interactions with the youth there and some of them are really frustrated with what is happening around them.

There is a great deal of fear, which manifests into hatred, which then turns into violence. The quick fix is cameras and what not, but the real solution lies in fixing the inequity of the community that the bike lane travels through.

Just my 2 cents......

Scraper bikes?

I think you're giving these kids too much credit for thinking about gentrification... Besides, these were bustling, safe, well kept middle-class communities a mere 50 years ago. Afraid of them going back that way? Tough. No excuse for menacing people.

As for the attack itself, total bummer. I can't stand the kids I see around my house and the larger neighborhood and the way they treat people. I can't imagine having been such a shit as a kid.

i live in highland park and travel though east lib every day. i have had problems at this intersection and several others after school has let out and/or at night while trying to head up beatty toward stanton. kids congregate there. some of them are assholes.

my best advice is that if you have a headlight on and are traveling through these neighborhoods, TURN IT OFF. don't make yourself a mark and you won't get screwed with. i also find that a large visible section of chain at the ready around the waist works wonders too. also, if you ride a manual past a group of kids they are more amazed at that than grabbing the nearest chunk of matter that they can huck at you.

that said, why the police are not present and visible enough in the neighborhood to prevent kids hanging out at 10:30 at night from ever THINKING about causing trouble, is a complete mystery to me. i've seen groups of like 20 kids walking down stanton and get in a brawl with someone.

@spak: i have definitely had some kid like 8 or 9 years old yell "hey, look it's a white person in the hood!", but my response was, "yes, i own a house down the street and have lived here for like 10 years. imagine that, dude."

i'm sure that these kids aren't thinking much... if at all. thinking is definitely not "cool", anymore, it seems. in fact, it's unbecoming.

I agree with Brad, I put this in the 'Teenage boys being assholes' category. Unfortunately, this is a much too common behavior of teenage boys driven by peer pressure and mob mentality. It's not a class issue or race issue, random violent attacks happen against all kinds of victims, typically whoever happens to be the closest. An example is the beatings of homeless people by teenage boys ('bumfights'). The perpetrators were middle-class white kids beating up on homeless people, even killing some (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homeless.attacks/index.html). I don't think these kids articulated a desire to "take back the community from the homeless." Rather, peer pressure, boredom, and mob mentality (maybe mixed with alcohol), led to these violent acts. It's unfortunate and there's not an easy answer to solve the root problem.

As far as prevention goes though, there are things that we can do to not become another victim. I think many of us can feel like we've 'let them win' if we take a different route and don't ride there at night. However, know that by riding on ELB by yourself at night, unfortunately, you're not sending a message of 'winning back the streets', but rather giving these teens an opportunity to commit another violent act against a cyclist.

Jake, I also agree with the teenage boys being assholes theory. I didn't say that these kids were trying to take shit back at all and I think that you are getting the wrong impression from my previous post. I was trying to understand why it is geared specifically towards white cyclists on the ELB. I understand attacks happen to all groups but there are underlying factors. This is posted on ntmto and duane was almost attacked and they said, "Sorry, old brother, we thought U was a whitey!"

So why cyclists? Why not cars? Why not old ladies? Those are easy targets as well and I do know that those groups are attacked too, but there seems to be a specific hatred geared towards bikes.

Comparing the kids that did bumfights isn't an apt comparison either other than those kids had a different set of fears manifesting into violence against a different group that didn't deserve it. It's a different set of circumstances.

I am not being an apologist for the kids that are fucking with cyclists. I could just as easily be the next victim.

So what's the solution? Cops and cameras? That hasn't really done anything in other areas where it's been implemented as far as I know (maybe it does). You are absolutely correct about not making yourself a target though. It pays to be prepared for the reality of a given situation and plan accordingly.

Be safe everybody. Much love

I'm in for a take back the streets ride, or even if it was a recurring event.

I used to ride ELB when I lived over there a couple years ago, luckily I can say I never had an issue (except with a PAT bus that would honk at me and try to run me off the road).

I did have an incident with my car a few times- a group of kids would run out and run over the car at a stop light and keep going.

I think a lot of it is boredom and I do think there is something to be said about the hostility toward the gentrification going on in the area.

I just made an account here, after being lazy for a year, but i too am down for a take back the streets ride!

"So why cyclists? Why not cars?...there seems to be a specific hatred geared towards bikes."

It's not just bikes. I was sitting at the light at the corner of Negley and ELB in my crappy '95 Civic, and had a pack of young teen boys stand there and pelt the car with crab apples and rocks.

There was really nothing to do but wait for the light to change and move on...fortunately the car is beat up anyway.

I like the idea of taking this issue to the Council to Go meeting on Thursday. I think to be really persuasive, we should document the issues. To do that, we need a recap of the incidents that have occurred.

If folks who have been in an altercation on East Liberty Boulevard (or nearby location) would submit a simple statement on this thread, I'd be happy to compile them into a list that could be handed over to Councilman Dowd.

Ideally, we'd provide him with dates, a summary of the interaction (assault vs. abuse), time of day and a brief summary of the individuals involved (number, age, were they waiting for a bus or just hanging out, etc).

Whoa. Like others, I ride through this area every day.

I think it's probably important that the ELDI knows about this, too. They would probably be willing to throw their weight behind any initiative, given that they spearheaded quite a bit of real estate investment in that area--it's hard to sell a $250,000 house in a neighborhood that is perceived as "unsafe."

Just came back to my home in Highland Park after a weekend out of town, to find that my car's windshield and one other window had been smashed in over the weekend. The fuckers didn't take anything (as I had nothing to take - I used to live in DC and learned fast not to leave anything in the car). Nah just smashed them for fun. Probably the same punks who beat up this cyclist. I don't have the money for this shit, guess I'll be biking even more now.

I really encourage everyone to go to the zone 5 safety meeting, next tuesday at Union Project.

I really posted this here so that we can be aware that this is happening (again). At some point last summer I stopped riding ELB in the evenings, because of others posting about violence there.

I totally forgot to send this to ELDI, and I will. thanks for the reminder. I will send it to FDA too. I also posted it on the highland park listserv.

There are any number of reasons the kids did this... The truth is that at this point, no cops, cameras, or anything like that is going to change the lack of respect they have for others, or their lack of compassion. Why bikes? Easy to chase down but still a challenge, a game? Knowing the rider is vulnerable? Could be anything.

Be safe.

sooo. I live here. this is my neighborhood. let me know what I can do.

on the same hand, I REALLY want to engage these kids. how are they being neglected? how can we reach out and give them a full perspective of the people who live in east liberty (which is ever changing) and give them a sense of purpose.

like I said before, I am really committed to the kids in this neighborhood.

This and all the nice stuff happening on North Negley between ELB and the Sunoco by Penn Ave, is my commute route. I too am committed to the neighborhood but I am beginning to feel like Custer on that Sunday morning; the cavalry isn't going to get their in time, I'll have to get by on my own or fall short of that.

An entire neighborhood in need of adult supervision or playground monitors.

You are right; no amount of defense can meet the challenge this presents. Someone is going to keep the money for a full-face helmet and kevlar freeride rib vest and defend themselves with equal or greater violence when attacked.

It will be all downhill from there. Lord of the FLies all over again.

Having lived in the area for nearly 30 years (including 20+ in Lincoln-Lemington), these situations tend to be cyclical. Bad Things happen for awhile, then it quiets down for awhile.

It's also important to realize that stuff like this happens everywhere, not just East Liberty. How many of us have been harassed by students in Oakland? I've had my windshield broken in Shadyside (with nothing stolen, so it was purely for entertainment).

What a horrible situation. In addition to the attack on Justin, a 19 year-old kid walking down the street was shot and killed near this location at 9:30 Sunday night.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10151/1062147-100.stm

I'd be very careful fighting back or breaking out the pepper spray for a group of violent youths. No telling which one(s) of them have firearms.

Hey.

I just wanted to say thanks for those who have called stopped by and written. I'm feeling ok. Painkillers are a big help. This is my first broken bone. And I like to go big so I made it an even three. left Collar, scapula and one bone in my right hand I hope to attend that meeting on tues the 9th. I'd there's any way that me showing up somehere in my brace and sling will help get a point across let me know. I hope there can be some good to come out of this.

Anyon can email me if they want to.

Just message me on here and I'll try to check it as often as I remember!

Thanks again for the support. It really feels good to hear that people care.

I am really encouraging all concerned to go to the zone 5 meeting, Tuesday June 8th, 7pm at the Union Project to discuss all of the safety issues being brought up in this thread.

This is also my neighborhood and riding negley or elb is my only way in and out most of the time.

And its true, usually a cluster of incidents happen, then it calms down, and then they happen again. If possible, I would not like to see this happen over and over again this year....

And yes, this sort of thing does happen all over town. However, there has been a concentration of it in this area, at least that we know of in relation to cyclists and possibly a group of teens who all know each other.

also, update, Justin did file a police report.

And its true, usually a cluster of incidents happen, then it calms down, and then they happen again. If possible, I would not like to see this happen over and over again this year....

And yes, this sort of thing does happen all over town. However, there has been a concentration of it in this area, at least that we know of in relation to cyclists and possibly a group of teens who all know each other.

Agreed, and sorry if I made it seem like I was blowing off this incident. As I said, both my wife and I regularly ride through this area, and I don't want to worry about stuff like this all the time. Historically, East Liberty has a bad reputation (which it has, in part earned) and some folks feel like other neighborhoods are completely safe, which we all know isn't the case.

I will be at the Zone 5 meeting on the 8th. I'll riding there by bike, but I don't know precisely where I'll be starting from. Do we want to identify a meeting point for cyclists? If so, maybe FreeRide? Not too far to ride, has some parking (if needed), and is a known location for most cyclists. Or is that too far out of the way for the Morningside/HP crowd?

I would advise against parking at Free Ride/Construction Junction for the Zone 5 meeting on the 8th, as the gate to the parking lot will probably be locked. The meeting is at 7pm, right?

CJ closes in the early evening, and Free Ride doesn't have any hours on Saturday evenings, so even if you do park in that lot, your car will most likely get locked in by 7ish.

If you want to meet near Free Ride, there's street parking in the area..

how about the trader joes plaza? we could all ride down elb to the meeting together. even though i live in morningside i'd be more than happy to ride out just to ride back w/everyone.

I'll try to find a ride there. I'd love to go.

The meeting is at 7:00 p.m. at Union Project (on Tuesday, June 8th).

Meet at Trader Joe's Plaza at 6:30, planning to leave there as a group at 6:40?

Good for me.

Scott, Great idea to "Take Back the Night (the Right?)" to use the ELB lanes. I use the lanes bikeing and skating. I can mobilize the inline skating group to join in as well.

Keep us posted!

In addition to the Tuesday, June 8th Zone 5 meeting... from Patrick Dowd "Council-to-Go at Tazza d'Oro on Thursday night (June 3rd) 6:30-8pm. I anticipate hearing from constituents about recent incidents involving cyclists as well as other concerns. Please join us to share your thoughts and concerns."

I ride basically the entire length of the ELBL's going to work and coming back from work at night. I'll keep an eye out for people. People threw snow balls at me earlier in the year (even after one of the kids that knew me was like "chill! chill!") and I've heard of some other people having the same issue (people not on this board)

I don't think cameras will do jack except make the residents feel like they're in more of a police state and resent perceived symbols of authoritythe ruling class even more.

Maybe have some more bike outreach in East Liberty, geared towards kids? That's all my brain can muster right now in the form of a solution. From my tutoring experience, a lot of those kids are pissed off, don't have much going for them, and were hostilethreatening to me when I knew them and had all their contact info, so I can only imagine how crazy they could potentially get when they don't know who they're going after and the victim has no idea who they are.

Hoodlums, is it? Idleness? Yep, I've read about this before.

Over the space of 200 miles and span of 110 years, we have the wise and wonderful words of Elbert Hubbard.

Anyone wishing to see an actual copy of the 110-year-old book, printed and bound by the author himself, let me know.

Park a van full of ninjas on ELB, send some cyclist bait out in downhill gear, and take care of some business when they get jumped. Cops won't be around to see anything anyway.

No, Q, THAT will be when the cops show up.

Maybe you replace the van full of ninjas with an unmarked van full of Pittsburgh's finest?

there's a Facebook page for the council to go

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=115788241798265

A van with free donuts and coffee?

@bedmonds - will you be at the Carnegie TOD meeting tonight?

I keep hoping to but have a big deadline on the near horizon.

Maybe a regular group ride on East Liberty Boulevard would be helpful. Weekly, say. And rather than bunch up and ride fast and reinforce the us-vs-them mentality, maybe ride slow, spread out, talk to onlookers as you ride, invite them to join in. Carry a boom box, play some good music, make it a fun event, more like the join-the-party spirit of the Keg Ride.

Maybe have some more bike outreach in East Liberty, geared towards kids?

Scraper bikes.

Maybe a regular group ride on East Liberty Boulevard would be helpful. Weekly, say. And rather than bunch up and ride fast and reinforce the us-vs-them mentality, maybe ride slow, spread out, talk to onlookers as you ride, invite them to join in. Carry a boom box, play some good music, make it a fun event, more like the join-the-party spirit of the Keg Ride.

The way I interpret this is, FOC need to take over ELB

On the FOC some of the locals were definitely down with the ride, esp since we rolled down Penn Circle E right when the Kid'n Play or something like that hit. There was love.

Councilman Patrick Dowd’s “Council-to-Go”

* TONITE: Thursday – June 3, 6:30pm-8:00pm

* Tazza d’Oro, 1125 N Highland Ave, Highland Park (map)

* From the Councilman: “I anticipate hearing from constituents about recent incidents involving cyclists as well as other concerns. Please join us to share your thoughts and concerns.”

East Liberty, Zone 5 Citizen’s Public Safety Meeting

* When: Tuesday, June 8th, 7:00pm-9:00pm

* Where: Union Project, corner of Stanton and Negley

* Residents have planned a ride to this event, meeting at 6:30 in the Trader Joe’s Parking lot

* Click here to join a discussion about this

Long time reader (longer time biker), first time poster.

We could talk for quite some time about the use of racialized language here, with people directing their comments not only towards the kids who attack bicyclists but also to all of the kids in the neighborhood and what that really means, but I'm not really inclined to do that here. Not when the direct racial slurs -- calling the kids "pre-teen mongrels in training" -- didn't seem to bother most posters here enough to say anything about it.

Seriously, shame on you.

As for the other subject at hand, as what has already been pointed out a 19 year old boy was killed on monday not far from where people are giving reports of bikers being harassed. For as long as people, this bicycle "community," the police, city council, developers, or whoever, consider bicyclists getting harassed or even assaulted to be more of a problem than kids getting killed, we have larger problems that the law can't begin to solve. Streets need to be safe for all people, not just people who are your friends or coexist in the same milieu as you.

I didn't realize "mongrel" is a race. I guess from Mongrelia?

I thought it was just a general term like "douchebag". The more you know...

I had to look up the definition of "mongrel"

definitely not cool, tho i suspect the original poster didn't realize how loaded the word is.

i don't think anyone said or thinks it's "more of a problem," rather "another problem"

i'm sure that those powers that be are well aware of gun violence in our communities, but they may not be aware of violence against people going home from work, play, etc

Mongrel is a derogatory word which refers to people who are of mixed-race.

It's also been used in reference to mixed-species or mixed-breed animals, especially dogs (that's how I heard it being used as a child living in the sticks).

I don't think the poster who used the word was aware of what it meant.. though that doesn't make it OK and I'm glad it was brought up.

Hello dannyp. I think that what you say here about the streets needing to be safe for all people is completely true, but this is a bicycle advocacy forum, not a neighborhood advocacy forum, and so the conversations here are going to form from bicycle-related issues. The fact that the focus of this conversation is not on the safety of the general community and not tackling the greater issue doesn't mean that those things are dismissed by the people on this board.

Regarding the use of the word "mongrels," I had to look it up to find out that it was a derogatory racial term, and while I doubt that the person who wrote it intended it in that manner, I think that it is very important to understand the words we choose to use.

As for the other subject at hand, as what has already been pointed out a 19 year old boy was killed on monday not far from where people are giving reports of bikers being harassed. For as long as people, this bicycle "community," the police, city council, developers, or whoever, consider bicyclists getting harassed or even assaulted to be more of a problem than kids getting killed, we have larger problems that the law can't begin to solve. Streets need to be safe for all people, not just people who are your friends or coexist in the same milieu as you.

I mentioned the article that detailed the death of the kid that died on Sunday/Monday. I don't see that as any less of a tragedy than Justin being beaten so severely he had to be hospitalized with several broken bones (I consider that far more than mere "harassment", by the way). The fact is, we have a complete story in the case of our friend and some first hand knowledge. It is easier to be upset when you know the whole story, and know the person in the story. If you know the child that was killed and the circumstances that surround his death, please post them here, because I don't trust the PG article even a little.

Further, this is all moot because any steps taken to stem the "harassment" (beatings, broken bones, dangerous objects thrown) cyclists are experiencing will likely stem violence in the area in general. It isn't as if we are going to magically make cyclists off limits and the maladjusted youths can continue to shoot and harass everyone else.

I'm not sure what the non-racial definition of mongrel is? Even if you're using it as a generic term to refer to animals (perhaps because of hearing the word being used without knowing what it means) it's still basically calling kids violent animals, which in this context is pretty fucked up.

It is a word that I have rarely encountered people who aren't down with the KKK using. (The KKK uses it all the time)

As for it being a different problem - the form of racism that happens here is institutional and does not require any individual to actually think it's "more of a problem" but rather it's the totality of the community response. No individual might think that having a bike lane is more important than having decent schools for everyone, but we get bike lanes and not everyone gets a decent school and people notice that.

Imagine how you'd feel if your friend was killed, and a few days later you see a memorial bicycle procession not for your friend, but for someone who (thankfully) wasn't seriously injured. We all have an instinctual reflex to protect "our own" and mourn "our" losses but throw in power dynamics and inequality and it's one of the sources of this alienation that, ultimately, hurts and endangers us all.

I always associated "mongrel" with Lord of the Flies. Violent animals. Exactly as you described. I'm too young to have any significant experience of what the KKK said or did, outside of what's taught in schools every February, so the dictionary definition of "mongrel" never sunk in.

danny,

we are certainly not a very racially diverse group here, and probably not that diverse in background either, so sometimes things like this slip through the cracks and they shouldn't, but this really isn't the place to be calling out anyone for being racist. the word choice was poor, and the attitude about the kids is uninformed and uninitiated, but as someone who has been both harassed in this area numerous times and worked with these kids in various ways i can say that some of them are rotten, regardless of race... this is true of some kids in troy hll just like its true of this group in east liberty. this is what saltym was referring too, the non-racial definition of mongrel is: despicable person.

over time this board has become less and less radical, which is ok, but it does cause problems when things like race issues are discussed at length. most of the time I just don't enter into these conversations because this is not the place to talk to people who don't live in the city or just moved here about race, if you want to do something proactive about it I can hook you up with a space to have a discussion about race, publicly calling out people who you don't know really isn't that helpful, especially when this is something based on a misunderstanding, not malice.

if you do want to start a discussion on race please start a thread about it, we can have that conversation. there have been numerous times in the past when people have gone over the line while demonizing motorists or other problems the cycling community has run into, every time the person has realized there error, usually just getting caught up in the moment. I think you will see this is the case here too, throwing around things like KKK and comparing kids to animals is taking things way out of context and pretty blatantly dramatic.

please go to the meeting tonight and make your voice prominent if you're worried about these issues, that's probably the best use of your time.

I was in the middle of a long response, but Mark summed up my feelings pretty well. +1

or, just maybe, its all part of THE SAME PROBLEM. Poverty, lack of opportunity and violence go hand in hand. if we cyclists can find a positive way to engage kids and the community as a whole that helps alleviate at least a bit of the lack of opportunity i think it would go a long way toward not only making cyclists safer and seen as something other than a target for misplaced but justifiable rage, but would benefit the community as a whole. people have a habit of splitting up the northeast end of the city into isolated little cells "thats a good (rich,white,etc) area, but thats a bad (poor, black, etc) area" and when we do that the entire community loses out.

i for one would like to leverage freeride a bit and create summer bike workshop programs for the community. i haven't thought too much about the specifics, but basically like the earn your bike program they already do, but out in the community, in the vast unused part of the home depot parking lot every saturday morning all summer or something. give kids something to do with a real tangible reward at the end while teaching tem a valuable skill along with the pride and self reliance that comes from learning a skill like that. similar to what the scraper bike guys have done in their towns.

CBurch - That's partly what the Mobile Bike Repair Project (@ Free Ride) does. We hire 3 teen interns for the summer (they get paid by an outside organization), teach them mechanics, and get them out in different neighborhoods to engage others and perform repairs.

We also have a Youth Earn-A-Bike program - I can hook you up with contacts for the Free Ride folks who organize this stuff if you have energy and want to get involved.

ALSO - and I don't mean to go on a tangent and this could be it's own thread - Free Ride has a great need for folks who like working with teens/younger kids to be "mentors," like if the kid doesn't have an adult family member/guardian who is willing to accompany them to the shop, the mentor will fulfill that role.

Sorry to hijack the thread, just wanted to directly respond to cburch's idea.

"Imagine how you'd feel if your friend was killed, and a few days later you see a memorial bicycle procession not for your friend, but for someone who (thankfully) wasn't seriously injured. We all have an instinctual reflex to protect "our own" and mourn "our" losses but throw in power dynamics and inequality and it's one of the sources of this alienation that, ultimately, hurts and endangers us all."

It is absolutely ridiculous to give cyclists grief for caring about cyclist's rights and safety.

rachel, i thought you did have something like that but i wasnt sure. i guess what i'm saying is that we should try to figure out a way to make that program much more visible to the community. i think its a win-win kind of thing and possibly something we could talk to mr dowd about finding ways for the city or citiparks to help support the logistics and figure out a good way to market the program.

i think freeride is mostly unknown and therefore vastly under utilized by many of the communities it could most benefit.

I think this discussion needs to come to an end. Danny has pointed out a connotation in an earlier post that was a) presumably unintended by the original poster, b) misunderstood, or just missed by many readers or c) uncommented on for fear of inciting this sort of discussion. It was an unfortunate choice of words, and that has been duly noted.

As for the question of the right to grieve, or to express sympathy for the grief of others, who is to say that one person's grief is greater or more warranted than the other? The memorial ride(s) held this weekend were to acknowledge all riders who have been killed or injured while on a bicycle. We were not implying in any way shape or form that the injuries to numerous cyclists -- including serious injury and even death -- was more or worse than the grief experienced by the family of the young person killed last week in East Liberty. We were sharing a common grief and a common concern about people who know, or hope to one day know.

It is my sincere hope that the young man killed in East Liberty last week had a strong family and community that will grieve his passing, and will provide love and support to the family members that he leaves behind. If I knew him, or his family members, or had even a passing acquaintance with him, I would probably have attended a memorial service for him as well. But to say that I don't have the right to remember a gentleman who was killed through the reckless use of an auto (as opposed to the reckless use of a handgun) or that by sharing my concern about an individual who was injured through no action of his own is somehow disrespectful of this other individual is just absurd. That's MY final post on the matter!

dannyp, I don't know their race, you don't know their race -- hell, the entire concept of race is bizarre. Mongrel IS a generic term to refer to undesirable animals, that's what it "really means", and that's what it has "really meant" for as long as English has been around. I don't give a damn what the KKK has done to pervert my language, and I'm not about to give them the respect it would take to keep track of their favorite codewords so as to avoid using them.

People who behave like animals deserve to be labeled as animals, no apology from this quarter.

The KKK? They deserve to be laughed at, and not an ounce more.

And I really don't know what people deserve who try to score "holier-than-thou" points over their neighbors on account of how finely tuned and sensitive are their choices in food (oh, you know, you really should be ashamed of yourself for eating bread because it's got REAL animals in it. Yeast are people too!), clothing (frankly, I haven't been able to find any that are made from all-natural fibers harvested only by fully self-actualized white Oregonians with decent health-care, so I have had to resort to just not wearing any at all), transportation ("I don't own a car!" "Well, I never even rent one!", "Yeah? Well, I wouldn't even drive one if someone loaned it to me!." "Oh yeah, well, I have never even RIDDEN in a car!" "Oh yeah? I have never even ridden in anything with four wheels!" "Oh yeah? Well, I'm a UNICYCLIST!") religion, politics, and now even language. Maybe we should just all speak Esperanto. I'm pretty sure there aren't any hate groups perverting it by introducing racial slurs.

this is a really good example of when i duck out of conversations.

for the language nerds:

mongrel, definition

5. a. A person of low or indeterminate status. Freq. as a term of contempt or abuse, esp. in early use. Occas. in fig. context. derogatory

a1585 A. MONTGOMERIE Flyting with Polwart 772 Gleyd gangrell, auld mangrell! to the hangrell, and sa pyne. 1602 B. JONSON Poetaster III. iv. 2 Why how now, my good brace of Blood-hounds?..you Mungrelles, you Curres, you Bandogges, wee are Captaine Tucca, that talke to you, you inhumane Pilchers. a1627 T. MIDDLETON Chast Mayd in Cheape-side (1630) II. 22 How did the Mungrels heare my wife lyes in? 1647 G. WHARTON Ireland's War in Wks. (1683) 227 To the intent that this barking mungrel may not delude the ignorant with his pedling trash. 1764 S. FOOTE Mayor of Garret I. 19 Is that your manners, you mongrel? 1840 R. H. DANA Two Years before Mast viii. 64 We now began to feel like sailors, which we never fully did when we were in the steerage. While there,..you are but a mongrel. 1857 A. DOUGLAS Ferryden 85 Ye haena the speerit o' ony man, nor woman nether, 'it ever I kent, an' gif I was ye, I wid..an' mak a grite mangerrel o' myself. 1876 ‘G. ELIOT’ Daniel Deronda I. II. xvi. 333 You save an ugly mongrel from drowning and expect him to cut a fine figure. 1919 A. WRIGHT Game of Chance 20 A mongrel she'd known before me..put a tale over on her. 1929 D. H. LAWRENCE Pansies 126 England was always a country of men... Now it's a country of frightened old mongrels Snapping out of fear. 1974 Meanjin Q. 280 A mate of mine was exterminated like that. In a cellar. Some mongrel dropped a niner through a trapdoor. 1997 Courier-Mail (Brisbane) 26 June 3/4 Mrs. Jackson's grandson..was at the house yesterday fitting extra locks. ‘I'd like to get my hands on the mongrel,’ he said.

ok.

let's bring this conversation back to productivity now.

there's a few points that i feel in need to make.

a) this is a public forum, a varied group of people on here, and in no way represents the position of BikePGH. Sure it's on our website, and it's the risk we chose to accept because we feel that there is more good than bad that can come out of this.

b) I personally didn't know that mongrel was a racist term until danny pointed it out and i looked it up. i'm sure had the original poster known the connotation, he/she probably wouldn't have used it.

c) with that said, although i'm an admin, it's impossible to keep up on every post that happens on here.

while i do think that people should be called out on things that are said on here, which has happened many many times in the past, i don't think that this term was used as danny implied. but i'm not going to speak for anyone, just as anything said on here shouldn't be used to speak for BikePGH.

@Dannyp:

I (a long with most everyone else), had no clue that the word "mongrel" had any racial connotation to it. I've only ever heard it in reference to dogs.

I have had a few in-depth conversations (in person) with the poster who used the term, and I can almost positively assure you that is not what they meant.

To me, jumping in and label someone as a "racist" is of lower moral standing than to accidentally use a racially charged word in a non-racial context.

As for referring to people who senselessly assault other people as animals, I agree with Lyle.

On a more constructive note, Rachel, would FreeRide be interested in my scrap vinyl for decorating bikes? Although scraper bikes may not be of everyones taste, I think colorful self-adhesive weather-proof vinyl film could be a easy fun way to let kids individualize their bikes. Maybe set something up for bikefest?

Could I jump in and label people as specist? Humans ARE animals. And from what I know, there aren't groups of non-human animals targeting cyclists on the ELBL, they're humans. And in that context, "calling kids violent animals" seems accurate. I don't understand how it is "shame on us," for not knowing the origins of a particular derogatory term, and what percentage of the population knows the origins of the word? That being said, now that I am slightly more aware of it, I wouldn't go out of my way to use the word.

first, it's speciesist. second, wtf? third... seriously wtf?

edit: ok that edit you just did was a little more coherent but what does this have to do with speciesism. lets pretend i never wrote that and neither did you.

So, about that Take Back The Night ride...

Yes, the ride.

I can't go to the meeting tonight, but are we having a late night ride next week? Or is the take back the night ride, a ride to the meeting?

There seemed to be some confusion.

maybe that should be a new thread. this one is a disaster. while we are talking about race relations though i don't know that "take back the night" is the most appropriate name for this ride... kind of antagonistic... to be "taking back" streets means that:

1. we don't have control of them

2. we can control them

3. we want control of them

4. other people have the control that we seek, implying that we are against these people

the idea of "whose streets" "our streets" ringing out on ELB at 9pm is a scary one to me, not that i think that would happen but still... its an intense name for something that should be much more of a reach into the community.

i feel like "safe streets ride" or something witty someone else thinks up is better.

i thought the same thing

Mark, I thought the same thing myself, but your reply is much better than the 2 or 3 I wrote and erased.

I don't want to take anything back, I just don't want to get beat down without provocation.

Does it need a name? Maybe it is just a ride, one of many in the upcoming months in many of the neighborhoods in Pgh, a different one every week.

Good point Mark. I don't even consider them "my streets." I'm riding through somebody else's neighborhood. I just don't want to be targeted by people because of a morally irrelevant characteristic like riding a bike.

…woah.

Greetings from the ignorant poster. I certainly didn't mean to stir such harm (or conversation for that matter) with my exceptionally poor choice of words. Indeed, I had no clue of its weighted racial connotation. I do hope we can soon rest this discussion (it sure would help me sleep tonight), but having been the (unintentional) instigator of the direction that this thread has veered and steered, I’ll have no peace unless I first apologize and clarify. Had I known that this was such a loaded term, I never would have chosen it. Indeed it is my serious bad, for which I am sorry. Even without the knowledge of what racial weight these words held, I quickly regretted having said them, as I love the kids of this neighborhood and am both involved and invested in my community. At the time I simply happened to be really heated by this occurrence as this is my neighborhood and Justin is a friend of mine. I was quite alarmed to hear of his ordeal and pain. Still, I definitely didn't know the weight of this word, and whether you choose to believe me or not, I more so meant for it to infer something lighter, along the lines of “meddling kids”. And just that: kids. Not black kids or white kids (as those who've jumped in front of my path have not belonged to one specific race, or gender for that matter). I do now realize this was an incredibly poor choice of words on my part, and want to apologize for any offense or grief that I have caused to members, writers and readers alike. I hope you can all forgive me. I would like to request, however, that in offering attention to such matters, correction through education often proves more constructive than quick assumption. There is also a level of miscommunication that is experienced over the internet, texts, forums, or whatever other methods of communications that limit the interpersonal. Unfortunately, it also simply happens to be far more prominent, permanent and unforgiving.

All that to affirm that yes, we’re all human… And we’re all animals (guilty). My apologies for having responded to this situation so quickly from of my flesh. I’d much appreciate an extension of your grace. I’m reminded in plentiful areas of my life that I need it daily, and am sure I’ll probably need it on here from time to time as well.

But yes, back to the ride, whatever it is called, if anything. I would indeed myself like to go. And as for scraper bikes and vinyl, two of my friends are vinyl distributors, and I get some of their scraps every now and then for art/hoops, etc.. I am sure they'd be into donating some to scraper bikes, and I am happy to ask them. I’d be super stoked about such a project. Community engagement is indeed a passion of mine. It is part of why I ride.

Thumbs down to (at least) Nicholas and ndromb for their poor reading comprehension: I didn't call anyone racist at any point in this thread, so chill the fuck out instead of getting mad at me for doing something I didn't do. And of course, I'm not being critical of cyclists speaking up for cyclists. I do believe that saltm used a racial slur and have no reason to not believe him or her when he or she says that it was out of ignorance and not the intent to use a racist term.

That being said I am surprised by people are so shocked that this is a term that hurts the way that any racial slur does and that it really doesn't have a common usage (when applied to humans) that isn't a racial slur. When it's applied to dogs, it means the dog is of an unwanted/indeterminate/mixed breed, and it carries a negative connotation. Why do people think it means something radically different when it's applied to humans? I guess there's a significant number of people who have used this term without thinking about it, which honestly to me is just a little amazing.

I wouldn't have been cool with someone saying that kids in e.liberty are like unwanted dogs.

I think people (Pierce, etc.) need to put their thoughts about animals aside and realize that people of color (and women and many other groups) have been dehumanized repeatedly by being compared to various types of animals: being called apes, savages, dogs, etc. Not wanting that to continue is not specism, it's anti-racism.

dannyp, I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

However, you did say "shame" on us/them for saying such a racially charged word and tolerating such racial radicalism.

Wow.

saltm513: That was a really, really heartfelt message. It's hard to be accused of doing something wrong when you intended no harm at all, and I hope you don't lose any sleep tonight!

ndromb and saltm513: I like the idea of kids and anyone else decorating bikes with vinyl! That WOULD be a good BikeFest event. The wheels in my mind are turning... I also have a friend who is a vinyl-maker, and he has scraps too. Glitter-paint, paint markers, vinyl - yes please!

Also, dannyp, unless you are set on anonymity, I think the whole board would benefit from you introducing yourself here.

I think we all had a hard time with someone new and anonymous coming on and posting such strong opinions and shaming us.

So uhhhh... how was Council To Go?

Wow, indeed.

Wow, indeed. dannyp, you're also welcome to introduce yourself here.

This thread epitomizes just about every reason why I walked away from lefty organizing and never looked back.

This thread epitomizes just about every reason why I walked away from lefty organizing and never looked back.

+1

And I think that response indicates every reason why you haven't been missed by anyone I know, BradQ.

Cool dude, good to know.

Anything else to add?

Sweet, the personal attacks have started! I may be wrong, but I think this the first instance on this board. It's been a good run folks.

I think Godwin's Law has yet to be invoked. A good run.

Wow.... good intentions ran amuck, it seems...

Everyone relax..... go ride your bike!

Ahh, the joys of anonymous Internet flaming.

dannyp, we are a friendly bunch around here. Nobody goes around posting personal insults at other people on this board. Can we tone it down just a bit? You will get a better response if you try to keep the conversation on a friendly, constructive level.

Quite uncool, especially in view of the original topic. really. chill.

I am new to this board too, and I signed on because of this thread. I don't know why you need to know dannyp to take his comments seriously. That being said, I know dannyp, and he is one of the most articulate people I know on the subject of oppression.

I think it is important to take a day or two (maybe a month of reading some books) before responding when someone calls you out on your privilege. It hurts. And this pain can prevent a person from truly hearing. I am a white person, and I feel so appreciated when people call me out because it means that they care about my growth. Danny expressed his concerns about what people have been saying, and I really appreciate him for that. When I read this discussion board, I feel disheartened about the ability of the people around me to grow. I think there is a lot of what some might call "backlash" happening above.

I don't expect my comment to mean anything today. I just have this hope that someday in the future when one of you is getting called out, that you take a breath, and trust that the people who are calling you out are not trying to be assholes. And maybe instead of reacting, you could perhaps have a meaningful discussion about race or class or gender.

I think all forums are acceptable for deconstructing oppression.

new friends, lets have a real discussion out of this thread, i made one here:

http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/a-discussion-about-privilege-and-oppression-in-the-cycling-community?replies=1#post-35761

And just in case it wasn't clear, my comment just above was not directed at any individual, that was global.

I am wide open for discussions of race, class, and gender, areas with huge room for improvement in our society. And areas in which my own personal passion, biking, provides significant opportunities for building bridges. But not if we burn the bridges in our own house.

Welcome, roo.

Oh I get it. We are being punk'd right? Where's that rascal Ashton Kutcher?

so hows justin? it seems like today might be the day he wakes up not feeling too bad, maybe even thinking about when the next time he'll be on a bike is.

+1thanks brad.

I was starting to feel like I had to have been killed to win that persons concern. Though I'm sure even that would be made less important somehow.

Oh and Justin is ok.

I'm on vicodin and icing my collarbone often.

It still hurts to do everything and I don't have more than 4 fingers free to do things. Mornings Are the worst, pain wise. I'm also very bored.

I want to figure out a way to still be involved on the ms150 ride next weekend. I was supposed to ride it.

So what's the verdict on how you're feeling? Like Mark said, you might be starting to feel great about now, or things you didn't even know were sore may have started popping up. I've had it go either way after major crashes.

**Beat me to it**

Good to hear things are looking up for you! Who knows what may come out of this. Ten years ago I broke my wrist being stupid on my bicycle just as summer was heating up. I picked up a camera seriously for the first time and have been shooting ever since.

when i got hit (although not nearly the same) day 6 was the day that I woke up and didn't immediately feel like dying. although its a little late for this i kept a journal about how i was feeling a couple times a day (and then a couple times a week, and then once a month for a full year), reading it now makes me feel really grateful about how little pain i still have from that accident... might be worth doing.

as far as being bored goes I learned PHP in my first 3 weeks... between computer, TV, and reading i can't really say i did a whole lot else though

'cburch: misplaced but justifiable rage' Seriously man? This is a joke to them. This is just their idea of good fun. A great way to add a little excitement up an otherwise boring evening. If this was a red neck in a pickup truck running you off the road or throwing beer cans at your head you would be absolutely indignant but since these are poor inner city down trodden youth you relate and sympathize with there 'rage'. Whatever man. I have no pity or sympathy for them, their actions are absolutely despicable. These are probably of the same group of cretins that looted the Sunoco right down the street when the power went out two summers ago. @#%# them.

Shred303: Ok, that was not what I wanted to read.

O.k., shred, so what do you think we ought to do? Shoot em' in the street, kill 'em? Or just throw 'em in prison. Wait, that's what we do now, and how's that working out? If they're black male urban teenagers, they stand a pretty good chance of ending up with one of those results no matter what they do. And that's why they don't give a shit.

So if you ever throw a beer can at me from your pickup truck, I guarantee I will be indignant.

While you're at it, check out the origin of the term redneck, it's not what you think. Blair Mountain, WV. I'd actually be proud to be a redneck.

Hey look I live in the area, have dear friends that live just a few blocks from the incident and ride my bike through the vicinity quite frequently.

I think cburchs bicycle based youth outreach is a great idea. I just don't think the perpetrators deserve any sympathy. Defending myself is also a consideration but there's little you can do when you are alone and blindsided on bicycle.

BTW I don't drive a pickup or drink beer from a can and yes the original red necks have plenty to be proud of.

@edmonds59 I have to respectfully disagree. If you're assaulting innocent people & sending them to the hospital with severe injuries, you need to be locked up. Doesn't matter if you're white, black, green, or purple.... there's no excuse for the behavior. There may be underlying reasons for it in this case, but certainly no excuse.

I would also like to add that there are also a lot of decentcool kids that are in similarly shitty situations, but deal with it in different ways. There might be a couple of assholes, but doesn't mean the entire neighborhood is like that.

Of course something has to be done. The police need to do their jobs and find these people, stop them from hurting others, and the legal system needs to assign punishment appropriate to the crime. But there is an enormous abyss between that and #%*#% them.

One on one, the kids around here seem to be 99% cool. Put them in a pack though, even worse with maybe a little bit of alcohol... on the later side of night the tone definitely changes. I have tried to engage some of these kids over the last 10 years... crossing the bridge is very difficult, if not impossible. It's really very sad.

my thinking is that the outreach isnt for the assholes attacking people. thats what the cops and jail are for. the outreach is for the bored/angry/frustrated/etc kids in the neighborhood who are decent kids but the assholes can easily influence if there isnt a better option.

also http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/elbeast-side-ride

"Put them in a pack though, even worse with maybe a little bit of alcohol... on the later side of night the tone definitely changes."

That's applicable anywhere, I know it is out here in Robinson with the spoiled little white shits who hang out here. The thing(s) that keeps these little rats out here from crossing the line is:

a. There is usually someone at home who will hang them out to dry if they do something really idiotic.

b. They actually do have some vague notion of a future life that they don't want to screw up.

How effective are those as inhibiting factors for the demographic group in the city that we're talking about?

Oh, I forgot, sometimes they (Robinson) just go out and kill themselves or someone else with a car. That tends to quiet things down for a little while.

I think your (b) is a big one. But it's not just a sense of having future opportunities, it's also a matter of having been trained to take a longer view. I've seen some interesting reports of teaching kids to plan ahead by getting them involved in chess.

+1 on planning ahead. Probably the biggest factor in the poverty mentality is the lack of planning. That is also sort of wrapped up with the idea that things happen to them, as opposed to making deliberate choices.

While you're at it, check out the origin of the term redneck, it's not what you think. Blair Mountain, WV. I'd actually be proud to be a redneck.

incidentally, this is either a false etymology, or an independent one. the term redneck had already existed in popular usage for decades before the blair mountain incident, and referred to field workers whose necks had been colored red from the sun.

from the source:

redneck:

3. orig. N. Amer. (usu. derogatory). Originally: a poorly educated white person working as an agricultural labourer or from a rural area in the southern United States, typically considered as holding bigoted or reactionary attitudes. Now also more generally: any unsophisticated or poorly educated person, esp. one holding bigoted or reactionary attitudes.

Quot. 1830 may represent a more specialized use.

1830 A. ROYALL Southern Tour I. 148 This may be ascribed to the Red Necks, a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians in Fayetteville. 1891 in Amer. Speech 76 435 Primary on the 25th. And the ‘rednecks’ will be there... And the ‘hayseeds’,..they'll be there, too. 1904 Dial. Notes 2 420 Redneck, an uncouth countryman. ‘The hill-billies came from the hills, and the rednecks from the swamps.’ 1913 J. DAVIS Life & Speeches iii. 42 If you red-necks or hill billies ever come to Little Rock be sure and come to see mecome to my house. 1936 W. FAULKNER Absalom, Absalom! 122 Rich and poor, aristocrat and redneck. 1959 Times Lit. Suppl. 28 Aug. 491/4 The ugly faces and..the uglier actions of a handful of red-necks, crackers, tar-heels and other poor white trash here and there in the South. 1969 Observer 7 Dec. 25/3 They [sc. communes] all shared two experiences: the search for new values, and attention from local rednecks and the police. 1977 D. JAMES Spy at Evening x. 71 Middle-class rednecks like you..get all worked up about it. 1991 J. WATERS Jiving at Crossroads xvi. 157 The media line was that his was the politics of the stroke, the fix, the parish pump, of graft, crookery and whatever you're having yourself; he was the archetypal rural redneck, corrupted by power. 2005 New Yorker 3 Jan. 12/3 Her stories about ass-kicking and rebel-yelling may not prove she's the redneck she claims she is.

I stopped taking pain meds today!

Also woke up this morning and sat up with out assistance or much pain! Even worked / went out last night. Though took it easy.

I just got wind of this thread, but I had already heard about the rash of assaults through a few different sources over the past few months. In fact, a couple months ago I was driving past Trader Joe's (headed towards Friendship) with some friends and saw a pack of 7 or 8 teenage girls beating the crap out of someone on the sidewalk directly next to Trader Joe's. It wasn't quite dusk, but it wasn't exactly broad daylight either because it was overcast and rainy. We called 911, and doubled-back into the Giant Eagle parking lot to try and wait for the police and see where the girls were headed. We never did see the victim unfortunately, but we did see the girls head towards the busway/Ellsworth. By the time the officers showed up (about 3 or 4 patrol cars/vans all at once), the girls were gone. We told the cops what we saw, and they took off looking for them. I don't know what ever came of this, but it looked and sounded so much like the incidents I had previously heard about. And it sounds similar to the more recent incidents as well.

I'm not sure what age/gender Justin's assailants were, and I'm not a detective, so who knows whether or not all these incidents are originating from the same group of people. But based on what I've heard from others, the incident I witnessed was not the only one that involved teenage girls, and it seems that cyclists are not the only ones being victimized.

Unfortunately I will probably not be able to make the meeting this Tuesday, even though I would love to go and learn more about what's going on share what I witnessed. I hope to keep tabs on things from here on out, but if anyone would like more information about the incident I witnessed (in case it is helpful at the meeting or otherwise), feel free to contact me. I ride up and down Negley frequently and while I don't hit ELB very much, these assaults are obviously a big concern to me.

Dave

Good to hear, Justin!

i heard tonight that there have been 15-20 violent attacks involving cyclists in EL.

I'll be there Tuesday.

Justin, so good to hear. But the great question at hand is how fairs the ice cream supply?

all i know is that it seems like the police aren't doing their jobs very effectively in my surrounding neighborhoods.

not really bike related; but i was at the sunoco the other morning at 8:30AM topping off a u-haul i had rented before taking it down negley run and saw two dudes stare directly at me and "make a deal". i see drug deals go down right on the street at euclid and ELB all day and night. you'd think the cops would be able to do some undercover work, but hey maybe it's the undercover cops dealing the drugs and knocking over cyclists in 's'lib... (that was 98% a joke)

one simple thing that cops could do is be more visible and present in these areas... and i don't mean "fly through these areas at about 80mph in packs of 5-10 cruisers on stanton ave as a shortcut/expressway through the east end."

call 911. you dont have to tell them where you live or have the cops come talk to you. you can just report seeing a crime. also if you see the same people doing this in the same place at the same time all the time, call 311 and report all the info that you have. they will forward to the police as well as give you the 311 ticket number so you can follow up later if they dont fix it.

in short, if you see something REPORT IT. otherwise it didn't happen.

Ice cream supply is getting low!

Although my mother emailed deanna and went way overboard on baked goods! So now I'm up to my ears in simple sugars!!

yes, perhaps i should have reported it, but 8:30am is a a rough time for me to be awake especially after a day of moving heavy things. i actually don't have that big of a problem with selling or using drugs being a so-called "crime". what i was getting at, is that seeing this sort of thing out in the open in front of dozens of other people means that these dudes "know" they aren't getting caught doing that where they are doing it.

the law of averages would dictate that if i'm seeing these things, so is everybody else, and some of those people are reporting stuff like this.

personally, i will only ever report to police what i would call "real" crimes which have a victim or property loss/destruction. i feel that their time is better put to use on those types of crimes.

dude. drug dealing is totally a "real" crime, in that it is the type of activity that attracts all kinds of other "real" crimes.

as long as no one bothers to report it (out of fear, apathy,thinking someone else will) they WONT get caught. so if YOU see it YOU should report it. you can call the next day, later that day, etc etc. if its always the same people in the same spot and you let the cops know they WILL send plain clothes detectives to do a buy and bust the dealers.

while you may be cool with people smoking weed or selling it, i most certainly am NOT cool with the turf wars and shootings and other violence that comes with it. and if they are selling anything harder/more expensive than weed i am definitely not cool with all the "petty" crime that occurs to support people's habits. not to mention the self-destructive attitudes that its okay to get yours by poisoning your own community that drug sales represents. it might not affect you, but it is affecting someone's life, in a bad bad way.

i'm definitely not trying to get into a philosophical argument about whether the government needs to tell people what to put into their bodies. all i'm saying is that focusing police on those sorts of crimes takes away from enforcement and investigation of all other crimes that actually have victims who were not in the "drug game". the fact that drugs are illegal allows some of the police (and corrections officers) to make money ignoring it when needed, and selling it when they feel like it. therefore, i'm not contributing to that waste of my tax money.

i am certainly not a believer that the use of certain drugs lead to certain behaviors automatically, like violence. i am a believer that some people are horrible humans and poorly equipped to deal with reality and some of them happen to screw up a lot. this has nothing to do with drugs.

my main argument here is that if the cops were doing their damn jobs in an effective manner, there would be a FEAR of getting caught and a desire to be more clandestine.

if it obvious that the expectation of getting caught is NIL, especially within about 200 feet of a public school, there is something to be said about a "police presence", or complete lack of one.

i'm not trying to start a frickin' community watch, just expecting that there should be a cop around seeing these things more often than i (or you) do, but i don't see that in my community. neither do the crack dealers.

i'm not trying to start a frickin' community watch, just expecting that there should be a cop around seeing these things more often than i (or you) do, but i don't see that in my community. neither do the crack dealers.

But why wouldn't you want to start a community watch? As far as I'm concerned, if neighbors aren't looking out for each other's safety, what's the point of living in an area with neighbors? I'm not suggesting that we all become vigilantes, but the police cannot be everywhere all the time. Public safety is very much contingent upon people in the community being the eyes and ears for the police force.

That said, yes, sometimes police presence is a bit lacking, but again, with enough reports from people on the street, they have to increase their presence in a particular area.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's not drug deals that plague my area, but stupid drivers doing stupid things like passing stopped school buses and blowing through red-two-full-seconds lights. Tell the cops about it and they'll patrol it.

as far as drugs not being real crime, hey i'm all for legalization/decriminalization, but for now drugs are a)controlled by criminal organizations that violently defend there sales area against other criminal organizations and b) lead to all sorts of burglary/petty theft/robbery crimes in order to get the money for the drugs. if you want to inject yourself with battery acid, go for it. if you want to mug me to steal my bike or break into my car to get money for more battery acid, we have a problem. unfortunately this is quite often what drugs lead to. not to mention all the other destruction they cause.

saying "that's the police's job" is a cop out (see what i did there?) to avoid the responsibility we ALL have to report and stand up to this kind of thing. Its OUR job to take an active role in OUR community, not to sit there and wait for someone else to fix it for you.

Its OUR job to take an active role in OUR community, not to sit there and wait for someone else to fix it for you.

Yep. That's kinda what 'community' means. Otherwise, you just have 'inhabitants'.

New to the board, but I'll definitely be at the meeting tonight. Live on the border of Morningside/ELB/Highland Park and have had plenty of vandalism happen to me in the 2 years I've lived here.

One of the issues I've seen, is the lack/responsibility of parents. Who lets their kids out at 11pm to wander the steets...

I have taken mesures to secure around my property after some expensive incidents happened with my cars (again, nothing stolen. Just for amusement.)

Organizing a neighborhood watch has been on my agenda for a few months, and I think reporting what we see - along with developing a call tree/email blast to let residents know - can start slowling violence and vandalism in the area.

There is also a city curfew for those under 18 (starts at 11pm weekdays, midnight weekends). If this could be enforced, it may help to alleviate more issues.

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/dailynewsmckeesport/s_684472.html

I'd be interested in seeing if we can partner with a pair of officer's for the neighborhood watch, so we can build a relationship with them and track/monitor certain areas.

To kinda bring this thread back on track, a 16 year old girl has been charged in the murder that occurred at Rippey and North Negley last week. The shooter is apparently still at large.

at the ctg meeting last week we found out that the curfew center has only had 18 kids in it since it opened. so theres is a LOT of room for improvement wen it comes to curfew enforcement.

I'm wondering if the girl that was arrested is the "ringleader" behind some of the kids behavior around Rippey St. that the officer mentioned at CTG last week.

@bjanaszek - yes.. I saw the PG news too.

Does this give some comfort that the attack on the cyclist was unrelated to the homicide? I would think so....(I mean, in the least bit). While something has to be done or improve to have more safety on the ELB and neighboring ares, at least we know that it is still 'random' and not actually premeditated. Although one could be at the wrong place at the wrong time too.

To be honest, random violence worries me more.

when's the last time you saw a bike cop or a beat cop anywhere near ELB, or in this city, for that matter?

is it because these two methods have been proven historically effective?

I see beat cops all the time... hanging out at the Sunoco on Liberty Ave. If I'm ever in trouble in my neighborhood that is absolutely the first place I'll go, I swear there are more cops hanging out there than at the station.

exactly brad... and remember that whole two weeks last summer of actually seeing bike cops in the bike lanes?

(not on ELB lanes, of course, on the liberty sharrows)

so because they aren't doing their job as well as they should be, you have no responsibility to say or do anything? come to the public safety meeting tonight and tell them you want to see beat cops and bike cops in our neighborhood. tell them what you saw and that you see it all the time. make noise, be heard, force them to do their job the way it should be done.

Well. It just (almost) happened to me. I stayed late after the meeting because I needed to make a phone call, but decided I should get off the street after erok and ian left. So I headed home down ELB. I generally avoided stopping, just slowed down so I would catch the greens, and figured I was out of the woods around broad st. But I caught a red at hamilton, and as I was waiting, I saw a bunch of teens wandering up katty-corner. I thought for a second, decided better safe than sorry, and ran the red making the left before they would reach it. Just as I did, one shouted "hey, bike!!", and they came charging after me. They didn't catch me. I called 911.

FFS... what happened when you called 911?

Anyway, quite glad you didn't get hurt. You should relate that story to the old-timer who was complaining about those pesky stop sign- and red light-running cyclists...

They said they'd send out a cruiser. Asked for descriptions which I couldn't give. Asked if I wanted to talk to the officer on the scene. I said I wasn't going back there. Though if there was an unmarked car there, I would. Undoubtedly it's the same bunch of kids but I don't know how you prove it.

helmet cam! from now on, i am actually keeping my phone in my pocket and i will have the camera app ready and open to record video in the event that someone harasses me or tries to harm me in any way. hopefully i won't ever be in a situation where i'm being beaten and can't get to the phone. this applies to any place i ride

omg Lyle, glad you got yourself out of there quickly. I used to commute that route just 2 years ago and never had an issue. I wonder what gave these kids the stupid idea that cyclists are prey. Gah!

Too dark for helmet cam or phone cam, I think. Definitely wasn't time to dig out the phone and stand there like a weenie pointing it at eight criminals. I think the best plan is just get the hell out of there.

Damn Lyle it was EIGHT people? Shit.

this is getting beyond stupid. i don't even know what to say.

Time to get these cycle officers on the streets NOW. The police spokesman was being quite coy about their apparent plans to tackle this problem (why?) so I hope that means they actually have a plan together... it's summer which means it's only going to get worse, and people are already getting hurt every weekend, it's time to round up these SOBs.

I say eight, it was more than four and less than 12. Could have been five. At least one was female, and knowing boys, the others were undoubtedly showing off for her. I think only two or three were actually chasing. I wasn't making a careful count.

I think the cmdr was keeping his cards close to his vest for a good reason. Let's not speculate further in public.

I felt kind of silly being all paranoid and shit. Until they started chasing. And I wouldn't have known enough to BE paranoid if not for this forum. So, I guess I owe BP and Justin a debt. And I am glad this happened to me and not someone slow.

damn, yah. Someone slow like me. And I just got back from riding there thru EL on Highland. Was with someone else though. I don't go out at night by myself like I used to. Again, debt to Justin and BP. So glad you're okay, Lyle.

GREAT JOB CALLING THE COPS

The cop at the meeting tonight mentioned that pepper spray & tasers are ok to carry for defense.

Residents were concerned that cyclists are riding without lights at night around here, but considering the circumstances, it's probably wise to not advertise your presence. It's your call. Elsewhere, get some lights.

Another point to emphasize: if you feel threatened by ANY behavior that you witness or experience, call 911. Don't be shy, call 911 ASAP. Zone 5 really wants to get to the bottom of this.

The meeting was good, I think we won some support in the community... one old guy complained early on that we were talking for 30 minutes without getting anywhere, but came out of it with a 'well, if it's happening to the bikers, it's our concern too' attitude.

where can i get a taser (bro)?

My take is, at this point, even if you're getting verbally harassed, call 911. Because now people are being physically attacked, so the verbal harassment isn't just a "shrug it off" type thing. For all we know it could be same SOBs who ghost-rode into Justin. Anything to get them caught.

Lyle, around what time were you harassed? I passed through that area around 8:00-ish, and again at 9:45, on my way to and from the climbing gym. There was a group of kids on the corner of ELB and Frankstown/Broad on my way home, but I was on the scooter, so I was moving with the flow of traffic, and they didn't say anything to me.

> The cop at the meeting tonight mentioned that pepper spray & tasers are ok to carry for defense.

So are firearms if you are licensed to carry.

9:44

Wow! Lyle, I am very sorry to hear of your experience. I rode through that very intersection about an hour before you did, and didn't see a soul -- I was definitely watching any and all cars, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. The thought that a single (and slow) woman riding East Liberty Boulevard at dusk was probably not the best idea in the world did occur to me, but just a little too late.

I thought the meeting went well. I believe that Zone 5 is sincere in its statements that they want this problem solved as much as we do, and that they have a plan to do someting creative that will permit them to approach the problem in new ways.. I believe that the (non-cycling) residents at the meeting came away a little better educated as to the cyclist perspective on traffic laws, safety, etc. Several came up to me after the meeting and said good things. I think this meeting created some goodwill in the community at large, if only among the two dozen or so residents there. I also believe that Patrick Dowd's presence at the meeting means that the value of this meeting was not just a one time discussion with the Zone 5 police, but the start of a an on-going dialogue with the City and the Police on matters of cyclist safety.

It was a good meeting. Thanks to the two dozen or so cyclists who stayed for the meeting. I think the police and the residents were impressed by the numbers and the calm demeanor with which the discussion took place.

9:44

Apparently the same group, then. Yeesh.

sigh. firearms?? I must have either come too late to hear that, not have heard it through the echos, or chosen to block it out. I'm pretty grieved by a form of violent response. IMO I'm not okay that that's okay.

Well riding home from work should be interesting tonight. Maybe I'll just ride around and take a different route. Has anybody seen the group well enough to remember any faces? Has anybody thought of looking at a Peabody yearbook? There's a good chance that's the high school they go to.

So Pierce brings up a good question--that of alternate routes. Has anyone had issues riding through the Highland Avenue corridor within Penn Circle?

Wow, just minutes after that rather positive Zone 5 meeting and cyclists are already being singled out by hoodlums. Sorry to hear this Lyle and it was great to meet you on the ride and at the meeting last night (rode next to you on ELB, I was on the white rocky mountain cross). Good thing you called the cops. I'd recommend contacting Dowd's office directly (there's an e-form on his site) or calling. He seems very engaged in whats going on (last night and at Tazzo the Thurs before) and he'll want to hear this. It might also help get this up on the Zone 5 commander's radar.

I thought last night's meeting was rather positive and I'm hopeful the city will be able to catch the three thugs who are hurting cyclists and pedestrians. My guess is these three are just the tip of the iceberg .

It was great meeting all the folks who did the pre ride before the Zone 5 meeting and the turn out was great (approximately 25-30 folks, approximately doubled the attendence of the meeting).

I talked for several minutes afterwards with the older lady who was complaining alot about "young kids without lights/reflectors wearing dark clothes". She was actually very sweet and very positive, particularly when she saw my blinkie setup. She thanked us all for coming out and encouraged us to attend more meetings. I think the residents at the meeting, in general, were very receptive to have us there and to hear our concerns.

> I'm pretty grieved by a form of violent response.

Pepper spray can be as effective against the user as against an attacker. Tasers are useless if you have more than one attacker. Stun guns you have to allow them to get right up on you and, again, with multiple attackers you're pretty much done.

Unless you run away, these are all violent options and sometimes, especially as the number of attackers increase, you simply can't run away. Speaking from experience, sometimes a firearm is the least violent option, setting attackers to flight by its mere presence.

I won't get into the pros and cons of various forms of violent self defense. However, I will ask one thing of anyone who chooses to carry any form of such: PLEASE get practice/training in how to use it properly. One of the most effective ways to make a bad situation worse is to pull a weapon and use it ineffectually, or on the wrong target...

"

> The cop at the meeting tonight mentioned that pepper spray & tasers are ok to carry for defense.

So are firearms if you are licensed to carry.

"

FWIW Kordite, Pennsylvania is an open-carry state. You need a concealed weapons permit to carry a concealed firearm, but technically you can walk around Dirty Harry style with your gun on your hip as long as you are the legal owner and you do not walk into a school, Post Office or other Federal building. You cannot be charged in court with brandishing simply for having it visible on your hip, even if the police aren't that well informed of the laws and may decide to arrest you for it anyway.

I'm not really advocating such things, but since it was brought up figured it would be worth mentioning.

http://paopencarry.org/

Please don't flame me. I didn't make the laws or the website.

Also, although PA is an open-carry state. It is almost always frowned upon (by law enforcement and citizens).

For anyone interested in responsible firearm ownership, head over to PAFOA

oh sweet, i'll buy a taser. problem solved!

regarding alternate routes:

honestly, i had a problem with the ELB lanes when they were put in. great idea for "traffic shaping", horrible idea for bike commuting. people go 65mph on there in their cars! now they just have one lane and a bike lane to swerve across while doing those speeds. i'd rather see that as a parking lane for the whole stretch and clear off parking on highland ave and put in a bike lane there. i mean, that's where i see people biking most often.

use highland. use euclid to penn circle. you won't have as many problems with cars OR punks.

if you want to ride anywhere else in that area at night and don't want to get screwed with, turn off your "hey i'm on a bike and headed your way!" front light that will alert punks to your existence blocks and blocks before you'll ever see them. even then, use caution and pay attention.

I don't recommend open carry, either. I think it's suitable for things like hunting or going to the shooting range or protecting your business but it is inappropriate for walking around the street, riding a bike or attending political rallies.

@unixdork - you should also be leery of Highland after a pedestrian assault on June 6th. Multiple fractures, kids laughing as they did it, no robbery, just beating the shit out of someone for kicks. Same M.O. as the assault on Justin, likely the same bunch of punks.

Good idea to turn off lights. I also don't recommend carrying weapons (other than having cannons for thighs), just wanted to mention that the cop brought it up for those who may feel so inclined.

As I mentioned in (maybe) this thread, my wife was hassled on Euclid. Not the same group, but there are plenty of miscreants to go around.

I think the route takeaway is "there are no good routes through East Liberty if you are at the wrong place at the wrong time."

Quizbot, did the commander mentioned when the assault took place on Highland? My experience is that Highland has a bit more traffic than ELB, thus making it a bit harder for kids to just out into the street and tackle someone.

Bah. So they're attempting to attack on Broad St too? That was my alternate route idea.

I'm coming into town from Frankstown so I could drop off Frankstown on 5th avenue, head south to Penn, then ride Penn to Negley, but I don't think Negley is overly safe either. Come to think of it, I'm not even sure how safe Penn is after I go over the East Busway.

Bah, it just seems like a big pain in the ass to do all that

"My experience is that Highland has a bit more traffic than ELB, thus making it a bit harder for kids to just out into the street and tackle someone."

Justin was attacked near? Peabody, which seems closish? to that gas station. Not sure how much traffic it would take to deter these kids.

@bjanaszek - pgh police blotter for sunday the 6th shows Aggravated Assault, 600 block N Highland Ave, 12:40am. I think it was up around the seminary.

There was also someone shot in the shoulder on thursday the 3rd, but I dont have any more details on that other than that there were 2 arrests in connection with the shooting.

All of this bullshit is happening within .25 mi of my house... not liking it one bit.

Yeah, that would be the block with the seminary and Peabody.

Very crappy.

Yah, Broad can be a bit shady. I had a scary encounter there a couple years back (was chased on foot for a stretch when I was out for a run), so be cautious.

I personally would really like to see more lighting along this stretch of Highland, between EL blvd and Stanton. It's between this stretch that I feel most unsafe, and it's just really dark at night. I feel like EL is generally otherwise relatively well-lit on Highland.

yeah - shit, i've been telling people i'm happy to ride on highland any hour of the day or night, as long as i stay away from negley... now that feels like wishful thinking at best.

The stretch of Highland between Penn and ELB is sketchy during the day sometimes. The condition of the road there is atrocious, so at night it would be hard to watch for large fissures in the concrete plus potential bad situations around you too.

And the intersection of Highland and Penn is equally tricky, given the poor lane markings and atrocious road surface. Throw in pedestrians who don't really pay attention to much of anything, and it is a recipe for disaster.

Fortunately, due to the aforementioned elements, traffic moves relatively slowly through that area.

Ugh. Highland between Penn and ELB is a total clustf**k. Really bad potholes (like the skinny kind that want to suck in your wheel and flip you), cars that dart out willy-nilly from the side streets apparently without looking, and all kinds of sketchiness going on all around.

I was stuck on Highland, just north of Penn, with maybe 12 or 20 kids going wild one Saturday at about 3 in the afternoon. There was still snow, so it was February or early March. Still pretty warm.

Just kids getting rowdy and showing off. Mostly they looked 14 to 16 years old. These weren't particularly hoodlum-like kids. Just kids. Some racial component to it- the kids were all black and the people they were harassing white.

A guy ran out from the sidewalk towards me. Maybe 14 years old, 120 lbs - 75 lbs less than me. At first I thought it was just an unobservant pedestrian so I turned away from him (mistake, see below). He raised he fist as though to hit me and backed off at the last second.

On one hand, this seems a little like "just fooling." It really is a guy checking out a cyclist to see how easy they would be to roll. How to do it.

A rehearsal, as it were.

I had my B.O.B. trailer - the dayglo flag was stolen from it. Made me slower. I had seen a person throw something - I think maybe a brick at a car and the car driver stopped. I was ready to ID the perp if police came around.

The guy whose car was hit pulled out his cell phone. A kid instantly grabbed it and ran. Standard Operating Procedure, I'm guessing. Be careful pulling out a cell phone.

I bailed.

***

A long while back, I read a suggestion for defense if you are on your bike and being attacked by people on foot. I used it. I'm hesitant to recommend it.

Basically, unless you can clearly get cleanly away, don't try to get away.

Point your bike directly at an individual. (Not "the group." One person.) Pedal as aggressively as you can, and let THEM be the one to get away.

I got a chance to try it out about a month after I read it. Reynolds Street, just east of the Frick Museum, midnight on a Saturday, 4 or 5 large kids spread out on the street as though to block me.

They had aggressive posture. Lined out on the road, crouched like boxers, hands out like basketball point guards. Like "OK, dude. TRY to get past us."

I picked one near the middle. A little smaller than the others. My target.

I sped up. Pointed directly at him.

At 10 feet, it looked a little iffy. For a moment, I thought that it just couldn't work. I started to shake.

But I stood up on my pedals. I flipped my dim, inadequite headlight up to point in my target's face. I could see the moment my target realized that I was headed directly at him.

Not him-and-his-buddies. Him.

He ran behind another guy. I tracked him. Both of them, he and the guy he ran behind, pushed a third guy out of the way to make their escape.

After I passed them, one of them shouted "Hey man! You almost hit me!"

It was gratifying.

***

Good points: 1) A person on a bicycle, with a helmet, cuts a profile like they weigh a lot more than they actaully do. Like 30% to 50% more. 2) It's hard to stand your ground when something that isn't small closes towards you at a fast running pace. More so when the light is pointed at you. 3) They won't be chasing you after you pass. Really.

Bad points:

Bad point #1) So you're 50% bigger on your bike? I'm pretty big to start with (5'11, 195) not everyone is. A 110 lb person against 180lb teens is out of luck.

Bad point #2) there were 4 or 5 guys when I tried it. The groups of kids I've seen around East liberty tend to be more like 8, 10, 12, 20. There is chance that they could NOT physically get out of your way, no matter how much they would like to.

Bad point #3) You have to keep going. Even if you injure someone or they injure you. Stop and you are soooo stomped.

Bad point #4) Danger of escalation. I'm guessing that the guys carrying firearms in East Liberty aren't fussing with penny-assed rolling of bike riders, but you never know.

Bad point #5) MAJOR BAD POINT. When I had my experience, it was the mid 1990's. The guys were looking to roll a pedestrian or two and then saw a nerd with a bike light. A bike was a surprise. The response most people would give to a bike then and there would be WTF?

The ELB kids KNOW bikes. Saltm talked about someone running out at her and breaking off. Same thing has happened to me - a few times.

Those were rehearsals.

These guys know how bikes move. They've talked with each other about how to attack a biker. They've had practice. And success.

My guys were pushovers.

****

Practical points:

1) If I go through East Liberty at night, I'll turn off my headlight. No sense in letting them see A) how I'm moving and I'm a geek.

But I set that light to point at the eyes. I'm ready to turn it on again quickly.

At just the right moment, a bright blinking light pointed at the eyes might give you 2 seconds - if you are very lucky. It will likely cause a 3/4 second's confusion.

At 10 mph, 2 seconds is 28 ft and 3/4 second is 11 ft. "Gimme three steps, mister..."

2) A loud shout will help. An "I'm-gonna-kill-you" scream is more effective than an "I'm-being-attacked" scream.

3) If someone runs at you, they want to push you over and beat you until you are hospitalized.

Just being realistic.

A person can push you over from the side. If you manage to point towards them, they can't push you over. (Easier said than done.) If you point right at them? They will move out of the way.

4) I put my u-lock where I can grab it fast. I'm ready to throw it like a frisbee, if I have to.

5)For bad neighborhoods in general. Wad up a bunch of $1 bills in your pocket. Don't have anything else in that pocket.

If you have to run and you are afraid you can't run fast enough? Let them chase 5 or 10 one-dollar bills on the road, not you. Not one punk in 100 is gonna leave the cash to come get you.

Well worth the money.

***

It's only a matter of time until we see trouble-makers ON bikes.

I appear to be 50% bigger on a bike than I actually am? No wonder I haven't much troubles, people must think there's a freaking rhinocerous coming at them.

I know this thread has been beaten like a dead horse, but I really feel like I have to put in my 2 cents. I grew up in the east end back in the 90's when the gang shit was really big. I've been held up at gunpoint (for a bike when I was 12), I've been jumped, and I've been robbed, all during my teenage years. A few things I have learned over the years.

1. The police are never where you need them to be.

2. You cannot rationalize with teenagers, especially when they are boys and they are roaming in packs.

3. Most of these kids are probably 12-16. While they may be menacing and sometimes dangerous, their bark is worse than thier bite. If they were real hard asses, they wouldn't be wasting their time fucking with some cracker on a bike. Hell, they're not even robbing people.

4. BB guns these days look pretty similar to real guns.

5. Being passive usually makes you a victim.

6. It is your right to protect yourself.

It's important to make the police aware of the issues at hand, and taking it to the community is positive also, but realize that change may not occur, or at least quickly. Until things improve, I think everyone that rides through these problematic areas needs to be prepared for such encounters, or avoid riding though these areas at all costs. Like I said earlier, being passive can make you a victim. I think part of these attacks involve cyclists because cyclists typically are passive, and the other previous attacks haven't resulted in much fight back from the victims (at least from what I gathered). If you encounter some of these punks and you can't get away, don't be passive - they feed on that and they'll just give it to you more. Bust one persons nose and you'll see them split because that's not what they bargained for - we're supposed to be easy pickins. If you are comfortable doing so, protect yourself. And like another person mentioned, make sure you know how to use whatever you may choose. A weapon in unsure hands can quickly be turned against you.

Maybe this bicycle thing isn't such a good idea. Maybe we should go back to riding around in our cars with the doors locked, windows rolled up and air conditioning on.

@mick:

Then one of them throws his bicycle at you unmanned, and all that force you generated turns into how far you fly over your handlebars and how hard you hit the ground.

ie: me, and I wasn't trying to use myself as a weapon.

also @mick, it's not a matter of time, they were on bikes when they got me. the future is now.