Friendship and Gross this morning, I'm waving some left hand turners in front of me waiting to go straight. Moron starts trying to pass me on my right side heading toward the park. The best part of it is that there's a sharrow no less than 50 ft from where he started his bizarre maneuver.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4sIJp3N3c
I'm not sure what he did wrong there. It doesn't appear that he was trying to pass you in the intersection but rather waited until you were through it. He was behind you in the intersection and after you went through, you drifted to the right and then he passed. Even if he is completely in the wrong, it's probably best not to be so confrontational anyway.
it's probably best not to be so confrontational anyway.
You should tell that to the driver who yelled at him as he passed and then pulled over in anger after quizbot had the balls to respond.
I agree from the video nothing looks terribly out of sorts, but I also realize there is a lot not able to be seen from this video.
Way OT: It would be great if there was some system that let people send letters to car owners based upon license plate. I realize it would be questionable on a privacy stand point, but I think it could take a lot of the adrenaline out of the question when it comes to these things. I've lost my cool or been confrontational more times than I should, and if I knew there was some way to calmly address the matter after the fact, it would have been much smoother.
Long story short, I too would try and be less confrontational (only because I too, am extremely right now, and trying to change that)
Why were you waiting to go straight when you had the right of way? Cursing at a guy for yielding like he is supposed to?
Acting outside of the normal flow of traffic causes confusion and that intersection is already confusing.
Then the guy behind you gets confused because you're pausing in the middle of an intersection on a green light and he tries to pass you. Maybe he thought you were trying to get into the park?
Then he appears to be following behind you, eventually passing you, and your response is more cursing
Had to find fault with a guy for getting confused and then cautiously passing you
Why were you waiting to go straight when you had the right of way?
Because he didn't want to get hit by the two cars coming around the corner?
No one thinks the driver's response is hilarious?
"I GOT YOU ON CAMERA TOO! YEAH!"
I am curious what the "normal flow of traffic" is at that intersection is. It's not a traffic circle, is it normal traffic flow for the cars to turn left there? If you don't yield to the turning traffic what do you do to avoid being hit?
Left turn yields to oncoming traffic, like the first white car was doing
In the past I didn't notice that white sign and shocked a driver myself because I turned onto gross like the oncoming traffic didn't even exist
@Pierce: I was waving the cars through at the intersection... can't see my hand there in motion signaling them. I probably should've gone straight through, but I didn't think the minivan was going to yield so I let them both go. Ya, the white car yielded, but the minivan didn't.
Then, the guy behind me was coming up as if to pass on my right, which is nuts.
What you don't hear is the guy in the Highlander yelling at me and cursing as he passed. He started mouthing off behind the glass, and I responded.
Then, instead of just passing me and calling it a day, he hits the brakes and slows down, falling behind me again. You don't think that's threatening? How about when he pulls over and stops? Is that threatening? You're ok with that?
This post is titled "driver didn't know which way I was going." The fact the guy is an asshat is irrelevant. What is relevant is clear from your title: the driver didn't know which way you were going.
One of the cardinal rules of safe cycling is predictability. As was mentioned earlier here, after the minivan, the next car yielded, you may have proceeded then. Perhaps if you had been more direct and purposeful in your placement in the lane, and obvious about your intent, it may have signalled to the driver behind you what you were doing.
It's borderline, but I'd say both parties share the fault.
As far as the driver hollering at you, you hollered back. By the time he pulls over, you're both equally invested in the outcome.
There is no way to signal "I AM GOING STRAIGHT" to a driver behind you. He was in the middle of the lane, it doesn't get all that much more purposeful than that IMO. The driver behind him was impatient and not paying attention to the situation going on in front of him and thought he could go around and decided to do so at the wrong moment. A smart and defensive driver wouldn't have reacted that way.
@rsprake - I don't claim the driver was being patient or smart or safe. I'm just saying it looks gray to me, and it doesn't appear to be a clear-cut case of "this driver is completely at fault."
Just because we are more vulnerable on a bicycle to the consequences of collision with a vehicle, doesn't automatically make us 100% "right" in this type of circumstance.
He started mouthing off behind the glass, and I responded.
Next time, don't respond. Or keep riding when he stops. Or make a turn to avoid him.
@chemicaldave: there are many many times when I do just shrug things off. Typically I try to be as zen like as possible. This guy got to me though.
I think part of what makes this interaction seem iffy the is the camera view... it's a wide field of view, so things are a bit distorted, particularly distance. Objects ARE closer than they appear. When the Highlander guy starts swinging around to the right of me, he's about the width of the crosswalk away from my rear (5 feet maybe) and coming on strong. He was definitely being overly aggressive for the situation. He had also just driven over a sharrow at the intersection that indicated where I should be in the road. My presence there should've come as no surprise.
I find all the helmet cam videos I've seen never look as bad as they supposedly were. I don't know if its the distortion or the events taking place off camera or even that the visual is only part of the experience and it just doesn't fully convey the feeling of a vehicle bearing down on you. Anyway glad there were no injuries. I think that is a tricky intersection by any mode since ROW is vague.
The wide angle lens makes everything seem really far away and harmless.
If quizbot had described this event as a driver bearing down on him and attempting to pass him on his right while he was taking the lane and yielding to left turning traffic we would have been like WTF is up with that driver?
There's a lot of ambiguity going on between the multiple cars and the rider at the intersection, the fact that the Toyota starts to pass to your right doesn't seem all that agressive to me but that doesn't make it acceptable driving either. I think it's a similar scenario to a habit I have behind the wheel, that I had to consciously stop. The habit I refer to is waving someone the go ahead to turn on a four-lane road. While I might not be in a hurry and willing to slow down and allow someone to turn, I can't guarantee that another car may not come flying like a bat out of hell and not acknowledge the turning vehicle until their is a crash. Due to my inability to control other drivers, I have ended the habit of waving cars the go ahead in such a scenario because I'm afraid that I would give the turning driver a false sense of security (they may ignore other drivers and focus on the fact that I gave them the right of way). Better to just avoid being unnecessarily polite and let the other driver make the call.
I say that this is similar, acknowledging that it was not a four lane street, because from the perspective of the two turning vehicles, there was a potentially agressive driver behind you (and it turns out that was a correct assumption in this case). They were understandably hesitant as both a courtesy to the bicycle and as suspicion of the driver behind you. The moral to the story? Don't be nice, just go, there is less confusion that way.
The man in the Toyota clearly needs some anger management. The way that he swerved towards you while pulling over (clearly overly aggressive moves on both counts), was just beyond unnecessary and your anger is more than justified. It is irrelevant if you yelled back at him while he drove by, swerving to intimidate you and then actually stopping does not in any way compare to yelling at one another with windows in between.
*edit* On a side note, thanks for posting this as it gives me some great food for thought and ended my writers-block of attempting to write a paper for an interpersonal communications class.
For me, this looks something as-simple as the driver did too wide of a turn because he wasn't sure where he wanted to go, and then tried to compensate by getting back on the Friendship-loop and on quizbot's path....
I do think the driver was at-fault for not being clear about his driving, but I also think that quizbot should had played cooler and not escalate it.
BTW
Sometimes when I come into an intersection and cars look confused about where I'm going, I either wave them to "go on" so I have the road clear, or I waive my right arm forward to show that I'm going straight.
There is no way to signal "I AM GOING STRAIGHT"
When I'm waiting at a confusing intersection, I also point straight ahead. I probably look like an idiot, but I think too much information is better than not enough, and I think it helps.
If you don't yield to people turning left, you'll eventually get creamed. A lot of drivers get really confused by that intersection. It's also hard when making that left to see oncoming traffic.
That whole intersection is a terrible design.
@rsprake There is no way to signal "I AM GOING STRAIGHT" to a driver behind you.
Every day I bike to work, I go inbound on the Blvd of the Allies past Halket street and I signal that I'm going straight.
The angle of where I'm pointing makes it feel like a weird Dr Strangelove/nazi salute, but it lets the drivers know where I'm going.
like jeg and Mick, I also try to indicate I am going straight if an intersection is crowded or confusing. Sometimes I try two fingers pointing ahead. I feel like a dork everytime....
To me, quizbot's video illustrates why the "Pittsburgh left" is so dangerous. The car behind him should have waited until he knew where the cyclist was headed, but took a wild guess out of greed.
I've caught myself a few times waving traffic ahead of me, and then realizing that I forgot to check for oncoming cars or cyclists behind me. It could create a bad situation if someone were to pass me on the right or left not knowing I had just waved a car on.
I can see signaling oncoming traffic of intention to go straight - I often point to make things clear, particularly at high speeds. But how do you show a driver behind you that you intend to go straight? By not signaling at all.
quizbot, what's your camera set up? I like the idea. Do you always wear it?
I really do like the camera capability.
Camera is a Contour roam. Shoots at 1080p, 30 fps, 127º field of view in full resolution. It does a good job in daylight. Not great but passable at night.
Don't like:
- Microphone sensitivity. It's configurable, but even at the highest setting things are too quiet.
- No settings for light sensitivity.
Both things could probably be resolved with a firmware update.
Do like:
+ Weather proof.
+ Small-ish and usb rechargeable.
I've been wearing it since I got it for every commute. Maybe 2 months or so. A bad interaction with a certain employee of Petraglia Auto Service 3 months ago convinced me that it was time for a helmet cam.
Setup:
Today's jagoff resolution:
Other stuff: hindsight is 20/20. I could have run my green light, but didn't want to potentially t-bone a lefter. I was really just trying to be safe at the juncture. It is definitely an intersection in need of an intervention, which seems to be in progress.
The BS in question happened over a 10-20 second span. There's not much time to sit back and come up with alternate solutions in that space, particularly with a 4045 lb vehicle riding up your ass, but I do appreciate all the post-game quarterbacking.
If you know the intersection, passing on the right is really not an option. It's a one lane street with parking on the right. I was taking the lane until I was intimidated out of it. I bailed to the right in front of a parked car for safety because the jagoff hit the brakes and stayed behind me after he was in the position to be "cautiously passing" me.
I'm waiting for @Pierce's insight into what was going through the driver's mind when he passed me half way, then hit the brakes and dropped back behind me for no apparent reason other than to intimidate. Listening.
This is why I haven't bought a helmet camera. I've experienced similar reactions here when I've posted (without video) about things I've encountered - you're overreacting, you should have done something differently, the driver wasn't at fault, etc. And this is from fellow cyclists - I can't imagine the reaction you'd get from drivers. I can't claim to be innocent either; for whatever psychological reason there seems to be an initial "stop whining" reaction to other people's stories.
Yes, there's some validity to what people have said above, but it basically amounts to blaming the victim. The bottom line is the driver was being impatient, and created a dangerous situation as a result. Maybe he didn't know what quizbot intended to do - in that case the safe thing is to slow down or stop. If a car was in front of him, he might have been physically forced into doing that, but since a bike doesn't take up as much space he was able to try to sneak on by. Drivers do that kind of crap to other cars as well, but when they eventually screw up the result is a "fender bender". When they screw up with a bicycle involved the result might not be so benign. Of course it will subsequently be written off as an "accident" and likely not the driver's fault.
^+1. Saved me a lot of time, Salty.
I didn't listen to the audio, so not sure what QB's reaction was, but personally I would have exploded on this asshole.
"I'm waiting for @Pierce's insight into what was going through the driver's mind when he passed me half way, then hit the brakes and dropped back behind me for no apparent reason other than to intimidate. Listening."
Is it possible he thought better of trying to pass you, braked and waited? Is it possible when you pulled over into the curb lane he then completed the pass? Is it possible he was frustrated by what was at that point erratic and unpredictable behavior by a cyclist (specifically darting into the curb lane)? Is it possible your response to his hollering (inside his car) ramped up his response further?
This isn't quite as simple as "blaming the victim," and i'm not even certain there IS a "victim" here. He was at a light, a car almost - but DIDN"T pass him on the right, they hollered at each other. Does this count as an offense against bicyclists? Is our skin that thin? Really?
People on bikes aren't always "right" just because a car can do more damage if a collision happens.
@ALMKLM: "Is it possible he thought better of trying to pass you, braked and waited?"
I'm not talking about the initial attempt to pass me on the right. I'm talking about the 33 second mark when he had already passed me, then hit the brakes and dropped behind. In the screen grab, you can see that he has passed me, and the glow of the rear brake light. Why did he pass me, then hit the brakes if not to keep harassing me?
He wasn't braking and waiting. He was already in front of me. I'm all ears on this one still.
Is it possible he thought better of trying to pass you, braked and waited?
He was already clear of quizbot and could have gone on his merry way but decided to slow down and threaten him.
Is it possible he was frustrated by what was at that point erratic and unpredictable behavior by a cyclist (specifically darting into the curb lane)?
How is quizbot's riding erratic and the driver's isn't? He darts into the curb lane because the driver braked and went behind him after he already clear. That's erratic, threatening driving.
Hrm.... I don't think anyone in here was blaming QB for the situation, and saying to someone to "keep it cool on the road" does not equal blaming either, just constructive criticism.
".....How is quizbot's riding erratic and the driver's isn't? He darts into the curb lane because the driver braked and went behind him after he already clear. That's erratic, threatening driving....."
The driver was indeed driver erratically, but don't think he was directly trying to threaten QB by following him at the end,,,...., for me it looks like the dude just wanted to make a right on Friendship to go towards Penn Ave, and just wasn't sure which way/street to go. I really think he backed so he could make that turn away from QB, and instead just freaked QB -which is understandable....
Ultimately, I don't think this was a case of a driver purposely hating a cyclist on-the road, but rather, a confused driver driving badly....
I can't hear what the driver is yelling at quizbot but I am pretty sure he's not asking how to get to Penn Ave.
@quizbot and rsprake - by that point in the event, both parties are engaged. quizbot is clearly yelling at the driver, and has pulled over and appears to be gesturing. Once they are both engaged, how can it be only the fault of one side?
Again, I'm not saying the driver isn't an asshat. I'm just saying cyclists are not infallible. And once we engage verbally or otherwise, we are invested in the outcome, and own our share of the result. Which, in this case amounted to some loud words exchanged and some raised heart rates.
@rsprake I'm just speculating there. The first wide-turn the driver did at Friendship & Gross looked like he wanted to head that way, but instead went down Friendship again and turned at Mathilda.
So, QB placed himself in the most visible spot in the lane, and decided to wait until the intersection was clear to go, in spite of have a green light. Exactly correct. If he had stayed further to the right to impede the following driver from passing to the right, it's entirely possible this same dumbshit driver would have attempted a pass on the left and possibly hooked right in front of QB to go up Gross. I see nothing erratic or faulty about QB's actions. Waving on the oncoming left turning traffic was perhaps not the most appropriate action given that there was a car behind, but bottom-line, this driver needed to follow the law and not pass another vehicle until conditions were appropriate.
If I had to hazard a guess as to the drivers thinking, I'd bet this driver was steaming up the whole way up Friendship at having to be behind a "bike" (spit), and just took this opportunity to pull a dick move.
So F this old goat.
@quizbot But how do you show a driver behind you that you intend to go straight?
I don't want to criticize how you dealt with that driver at all, but I've found that people behind me seem to see when I point in the direction I'm going.
I usually signal with my left hand, but your right hand is what would have been visible in that situation.
NOTE: I don't believe for second that failure to understand where quizbot was going was the problem here. I just waqnt to encourage people to signal where they are going id traffic situations.
@ALMKLM: "People on bikes aren't always "right" just because a car can do more damage if a collision happens."
He's yelling at me, gesturing, and threatening me with a 2 ton suv. It really isn't excusable behavior. If he had hit me, it wouldn't have been a "collision". It would've been "aggravated assault by vehicle".
In no way was I ever a threat to the guy. Not so the opposite. All I had was my voice, so I yelled back. I pulled over in front of the parked car to take shelter from him running up my ass and maybe trying to hit me. I didn't know what he was going to do back there after he hit the brakes, so I got out of the way as quickly as I could. I never flipped him off or anything other then yell, and wasn't gesturing when I pulled over.
Let's say you find yourself with an angry asshat behind you, driving up your wheel or otherwise intimidating you. Do you yell? Or do you pretend that nothing is happening? Have you ever yelled at a driver for any reason? Ever? Implying that I was being thin skinned by reacting to being threatened is somewhat lame IMHO.
Anyway, I don't care about being "right". I've already admitted that I probably should've taken a chance at the green light, and just gone through it. What I do care about is the perception that it's not ok to react when being threatened.
@edmonds59: to your speculation on the driver's thinking - he wasn't stuck behind me on Friendship at all. I had just made a right onto Friendship at Winebiddle, a block from the light. At Winebiddle he was at least a block behind me, at Evaline. Maybe the nice new shiny sharrows all the way up Friendship pissed him off? If nothing else, he should have had a clue from the sharrows that he might see a bike somewhere on the street. I really didn't even know he was back there until he started trying to swing around my right side, and I'm guessing that he just rolled through the intersection without any wait to begin with.
One thing there is a lot the video doesn't pick up. There is that cycling spidey sense that we all have that tell us to stop when we could legally go. I understand why you stopped and waved traffic on sometimes there is something telling us to let questionable traffic move on. Also the camera doesn't pick up the felling of a car behind you driving in a way that makes you uncomfortable. Whatever happened it was enough to make quizbot feel unsafe.
I understand the feeling to argue with drivers but I never do, the reason is 20 years ago I had an acquaintance murdered in a road rage incident. It was similar in the fact that no one crashed but it was a near miss and both drivers felt they needed to argue their point. No heated argument will change anything and it wont change the way cars feel about us. I have been yelled at by cars plenty of times and I still ride. I'm not saying quizbot was wrong I just want all of us to remember that we don't know who that person is we argue with or what might be under their seat.
A couple of you posted they would of said more or really let him have it but remember often the driver will take it out on the next cyclist, and yelling doesn't teach them a lesson
Best. Post. Ever.
Thank you, Mr. Marv.
Good reminder. Not always easy to remember when amped on adrenaline.
Remaining calm in a stressful situation is a learned skill.
As for the guy being confused and not knowing where you were going, it appears that after the white car went through, you were almost up against the left side of Friendship, which makes sense with my belief that maybe he thought you were going into the parklet.
Then he passed you and you two started yelling at each other. My guess is he stopped in your screen capture because he wanted to engage you in a conversation. This is why he pulled over later.
@Pierce: I'm calm 99.99% of the time in general on the commute. I've learned when to let stuff go, which is just about always. This was different. I take this intersection 2x per day generally, and have for more than 5 years. Probably close to 1000 times. This was the first time I've had a problem that escalated there. I gave no indication that I was heading into the parklet. And if you know the natural line through the intersection you'd know that I was in my lane, a few feet from the parklet curb to the left.
I was also not born yesterday, and am fairly certain that he did not want to engage in any sort of civil conversation.
