BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

What time, Mark? Late?

it was around 10:45pm 3 blocks from the T of east liberty blvd and negley, they were waiting at the red light there... fortunately I saw them and didn't stop, they said "here one comes" as I was approaching, and then once they realized i wasn't going to stop they ran into the street from each side and one of them said something to the effect of "give me that fuckin bike." this wasn't a joking around "hey gimme that bike" and jump out into the street kinda thing, it was serious.

dang that's 15 minutes after I came through.

did you call the cops?

also, if anyone ever runs into trouble through here and needs help don't hesitate to call me should you have your wits about you I live at East Lib + N Euclid. 412//508\5194

i didn't call the cops, i put in a 311 report when i got home... i don't know if that was the right thing to do but i don't like dealing with the cops

Can you describe them? Height, approx age? Please make a police report. I have a lot of ambivalence about the police, but this is an example of what they're supposed to help protect against. The two bike officers who came to Try-A-Bike are regularly assigned to the Penn Circle /E Liberty Blvd area. I think it would be good to have more night patrols there & on Highland.

i didn't call the cops because in the only situation that I have had that was similar it was a huge pain in the ass, i don't feel like they took me seriously, and it took forever. I was at the tail end of a very long 14 hour day and didn't want to deal with it. If there is an easy way to file a police report online or through the phone that doesn't have to do with officers getting a statement from me in person I'd be into it, but I was too tired to deal with it then.

what they should really do is put a cop undercover on a bike, i bet after three friday/saturday nights riding around east lib blvd and highland they'd have more problems than you can imagine.

I'm glad you were not hurt. Thank you for taking the time to do the 311 report. Undercover a good idea.

Glad you made it through ok. You may need to change your handle... Ice, perhaps? Maverick?

Undercover - how bout a uniformed officer on a bike - or two - at night in that area. This isn't new stuff - same nonsense happened last year.

I think having uniformed bike officers would be a great deterrent.

Thank you for posting this. Glad you are ok. I pass through this area frequently. I may need to carry my ulock in my back pocket instead of my bag now.

So I heard on the news a story about a few guys in friendship that hit a guy in the head with a bottle in the parking lot of an apt complex and mugged him. I guess the guy had a tattoo under one of his eyes. Did you notice either way if either of the guys who came after you had one?

glad i moved out of that neighborhood. i remember this exact same dialogue a year ago. looks like nothing has changed.

First off, Mark, sorry this happened to you. It's frightening and unacceptable to live in a city where this is happening summer after summer. But I need to say something regarding this:

"what they should really do is put a cop undercover on a bike."

They'll only do this if they know there's a problem. They don't know there's a problem if you don't call the police. Sorry it's a pain, but you NEED to call the police on this one. Please call. Also call Patrick Dowd's office as he was integral in getting folks to take action on this last summer.

EDIT: Also think of others when questioning whether or not to call the police. It's not all about you. It's about helping prevent a future occurrence.

Frankly I doubt the Pittsburgh Police will send one or two Police officers anywhere by themselves, especially at night. Have you ever seen them respond to a call at night? It usually involves 2-3 cruisers and a van.

My partner and I just witnessed 6 officers give a man with mental illness a citation for feeding pigeons. When my partner confronted the citation-writer about their use of intimidation he got very defensive about the safety of police officers.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, sorry, I just witnessed this over lunch and am somewhat depressed about it. Community Policing starts with individual police officers, and shouldn't just be left to zone commanders.

That seems like overkill [6 guys on a man feeding pigeons]. It must be tough to be an officer, knowing that nut jobs like Poplawski are out there. On the other hand, there's no excuse for what happened in the case of Jordan Miles w/ undercover officers. In thinking this over some, I'd prefer an increase in uniformed bike cops regularly passing through in pairs at all hours. I think it would be a deterrent to all kinds of things and allow the officers to know the neighbors easier than if in a cruiser.

I was ridding around the same time might of been 5-10 minutes behind you, If it had been me they would of got me I had just finished a 16 hour shift and was tired and out of it.

thanks for posting.

i encourage cop calls, even if it is after you get home.

in all seriousness, i live at hays and chislett, not too far from ELB and anyone who is spooked is more than welcome to come to my house and we can deal with it from there and i will give you ice cream or popsicles. i always have those.

I often take Highland Ave. to Stanton skipping ELB I'm still not certain if thats a safer route or not.

@caitlin i will give you ice cream or popsicles. i always have those.

Will you be my friend?

@ caitlin, Ice cream and popsicles always make you feel better after a mugging

A police report can be filed online here. It has precisely the same legal value as an in-person or telephone report, or so I am informed. You will receive an email with a police report number in acknowledgement.

Please do it. It may not help anything, but it can't hurt. Doing nothing will certainly have no effect whatsoever.

(Sorry for your experience. I am glad you are alright.)

(Edit: I prefer this approach as I do not worry an Officer will mangle my statement. Also, it has been suggested I can be a little loquacious, and with this approach I don't fret over the Officer falling asleep as I prattle on. Even when I'm going to make an in person report, I do this first, so I know my statement is accurate. I'm told the gendarme appreciate this method too, and do read every report.)

postscript: One does not even need to supply contact information. Do not, however, provide false contact information like "Mickey Mouse" as your name, not that anyone here would. Contact information is optional. I supply it myself, but almost always indicate I prefer to be contacted in followup by email, and the Police have always complied with that request.

It's tough trusting police knowing there are officers like Michael Saldutte, David Sisak, and Richard Ewing out there.

Seems to me that these punks can recognize a cop from 200 yards in the dark. Assuming this is true, if we want to catch them in the act, we need to have a cop, uniformed or not, follow another cyclist by just enough back not to be seen by the punks. Punks jump cyclist, and cop is on them in five seconds.

I don't have a better idea; just throwing that out there. Now I'll go for a ride on McKnight Road and wonder how you guys manage in the city with all that crap going on.

I had a good time conversing with one of the bicycle cops who showed up at the try-a-bike event last Saturday. When I asked him how many miles they typically put on their bike each day he got a little embarrassed and then said only 10 or 12 miles. I assume this is a frequent question, and he had a ready answer. The gist for the low mileage is that they have to answer incoming calls just like car oriented police within their zone, so most of their time is spent interviewing people at 911 scenes (shots fired, domestic abuse, and cats in trees) and then filling out the paperwork that goes along with answering the calls. They seem to have have precious little time to just cruise around.

Well, 10-12 miles a day sounds pretty good to me, if you compare it with with the (extinct) cop walking a beat or some guy in a cruiser zooming by ever so often.

The right question would be how often each street in the precinct has someone riding through. The point of the beat is to have the police maintain a current sense of what's happening on the street and acting as a normal part of the urban scene (as opposed to a bunch of guys who show up ever so often in riot gear, tumbling out of an armored bus, batons swinging).

[yes, I know there are 'bad cops' out there, but if you've talked to any officers you'd realize that for the most part they are good people, if maybe a bit too picky about the law.]

Ugh. About a month ago I decided not to bike to my friend's party bc I would have to go through E. Lib Blvd and I just had a pit in my stomach thinking about all the stuff that went on last year. I'm dismayed to have that gloomy feeling vindicated.

Glad you got away, Mark.

One person getting hassled does not imply it is not safe to ride through there. I'm not going to stop riding through E. Lib because of a few thugs.

One person? That sort of behavior has been going on about as long as I've been riding around here (10 years).

I must say though, my favorite moment was last year. A lot of racers were sticking together when riding thru there after the track (like 10 of us) and we encountered Caitlin and another girl walking the same stretch. I felt real brave then.

I understand that, but this is the first incident in quite a while, and even at their peak they were not really that common. I'm not too brave, don't want to get mugged, and certainly not looking for a fight, but I'm also not going to leave my bike at home because of this kind of stuff. Actually, I did do exactly that once last summer and kicked myself for doing so afterwards.

I may have mentioned this before, but when I was young and riding in the big city, the custom was to drape your (longish) locking chain around the nape of your neck so that you could grab it with either hand and swing it at any assailants that might come your way (ideally on the side with the padlock). I personally never had to to do that, but word on the street was that it was highly effective in getting you out of tight spots. (Pro tip: do NOT wear the chain around your neck, that just makes it easy for people to pull you off the bike.) In comparison, U-locks aren't so good for self-defense.

@ Chris

we are pretty threatening. funny that you were sticking together, your group is probably the first one who could get away really fast!

in all seroiusness... reporting this and possibly having the place patrolled more often is better than having this incident occur over and over again. we can talk theorhetically about some bad cops that ruined the reps of them all, just like we can talk about some rude cyclists who are ruining other's perceptions of us too.

Is there a such think as a bicycle tracker that helps you find a stolen bike, maybe something you place in your seat tube or under the bar tape?

@mr Marvelous Is there a such think as a bicycle tracker that helps you find a stolen bike, maybe something you place in your seat tube or under the bar tape?

I would love to have tht on my bike, in my guitar cases, stereo speadker cabs, etc.

@mr m: RFID tags are pretty cheap, but tracking them...that's a whole other enterprise. Sometimes stolen bikes do turn up again. You're reminding me that I need to take some pics & write down the serial numbers on my bikes (usually found under the bottom bracket I think).

Please be as alert as you can riding through that area late at night. I'm glad you missed the abovementioned thugs.

Yesterday, I put in a 311 asking for increased patrols on ELB. Got a call from an rather irrate cop who did appreciate my my take on it "This is about police activity (or the lack of it)..." but he said he would put more patrols there.

The officer said he's been on the desk for most of a year and he's never heard of anyone on a bicycle being attacked. We need to report more.

OTOH, it shows that it is relatively safe to bike - even in the ELB neighborhood. (In spite of threats like Caitlin and friends attacking bike racers with ice cream and popsicles, I mean).

The governor signed the Pennsylvania Castle Doctrine legislation into law on July 1st.

Those kids are just protecting their turf.

It's a bummer to have that beautiful stretch of East Liberty Blvd feel a little "off limits". Has anyone had an incident there during the day?

I got in touch with Councilman Dowd's office about this yesterday. Hopefully they will be working with Zone 5 to get some more cops patrolling.

I was at a "used stuff" store yesterday, and saw one of these for sale:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2007/150/e/b/Midevil_Flail_by_The_Pwnisher.jpg

It was the real deal, heavy, very spiky. Not too big, could be carried easily. All I could think about when I was holding it was cruising around on my bike, swinging it around my head... It can be yours for $30 or $40!

I get that and a ball-gag and my dungeon's complete. "Go git da gimp..."

I have never had trouble during the day and I ride through there all time living on Euclid and Stanton. I am glad that you all did make some calls to get more police looking at that area.

I feel as though it is getting better in this area and people are loitering less and more watchful, but I still do not ride through the much at night in the summer.

fwiw i got a response to my 311 next day that my report was filed with the police. maybe not ideal, but next time i'll check out the police report online option up there somewhere.

mark there's no way to submit a police report online. that's just a police tip form. you actually need to call the police.

That is not accurate, scott.

While a 311 call goes to the Mayor's office, which may or may not forward it to CTIPs downtown, the online form goes directly to CTIPs, which screens submissions immediately. If a crime is being reported through that form, a CCRC number is assigned and the online form is immediately forwarded to the appropriate zone. An Officer will then get in touch with the reporter/submitter, and at that point a "technical" police report will exist, if you want to split hairs. Obviously only a Police Officer can fill out a Police Report. However, in non-emergency instances reporting a crime or incident through CTIPs is perfectly acceptable. For example, if the bottle throwing culprits are apprehended and if the person who reported it last night through the CTIPs form provided contact information, the DA can, once the information has been verified, use the CTIPs form as evidence.

CTIPs information is collated and coordinated downtown daily or even hourly, according to some accounts, and real-time according to others. But in all instances it is used to allocate and assign personnel. The Zone Commander with whom I spoke a few hours ago in person (to triple check my facts), already knew of the bottle throwing incident in East Liberty last night, thanks to the report made by the OP of the other "fussed with" thread. He considered it an assault as I did, which is one reason in that instance I recommended calling 911. Reporting it anonymously through CTIPs is better then not reporting it all.

Technically, no, it is not a "Police Report" until an Officer verifies the content of the CTIPs submission. As soon as that happens, however, it is a Police Report.

I credit the readers of this board with sufficient intelligence to recognize if they are in an emergency situation, calling 911 might get a more rapid response then filling out a form online.

So, scott, do your "legwork". My Zone Station is open 24/7, and I suppose yours is too? You are not doing anyone a service with your "legless" postings.

"A police report can be filed online here. It has precisely the same legal value as an in-person or telephone report, or so I am informed."

Apparently not, according to your own words above. Yet, you feel the need to insult someone for pointing that out.

Funny how every thread you're involved in seems to end up with you insulting someone amidst a verbose display of self-aggrandization. This board only has two rules and one of them is "be constructive".

salty:

Is it not "constructive" to let people know of a resource of which they were apparently unaware?

Who have I insulted and how?

Yup, you are correct, I should have written "It can have the same legal value..." Got me there. Good for you.

To be precise it should read "Make A Report To The Police Online".

All I care about is having people who would otherwise not go to the police and report an incident, file a report to prevent further incidents. That is all.

Fungicycle, it sounds like you agree with Scott that, technically, "there's no way to submit a police report online", since (in your words) "only a Police Officer can fill out a Police Report".

I guess you're disagreeing with his assertion "you actually need to call the police".

From what you said, it sounds like if you submit an anonymous report using that form, there won't be a police report (since the officer wouldn't be able to "get in touch with the reporter/submitter" to make a report), but only a tip.

But if you use the form and include valid contact info, and a police officer successfully contacts you, then there will be a report. The report results from the police officer communicating with you directly. No contact, no report, right?

That contact can be when an officer comes out in response to a 911 call and talks to you at the scene. Or it can be when he talks to you on the phone (or via email or in person) after you submit a "tip" on their web site. Or as a result of you mailing them a letter, for that matter.

One thing that's not clear to me is whether a report that's the result of just an email exchange is taken as seriously by the police as one where an officer comes out and talks to the victim. I could believe that when they can't directly assess a victim's credibility, they give it less weight. Even if an email report carries less weight, of course it's still valuable as an "if you can't be bothered to do anything more" option. But we shouldn't promote it as an equivalent if the police don't treat it that way, just a fallback.

For the record, I don't think you insulted Scott, but maybe your message could have been more diplomatic. A little "I understand the matter a bit differently my good sir" can go over better than a "You're wrong, wrong, wrong". You'll never be appointed Ambassador with the latter.

Steven:

Thought I was precise in my post above? "An Officer will then get in touch with the reporter/submitter, and at that point a "technical" police report will exist, if you want to split hairs. Obviously only a Police Officer can fill out (and file) a Police Report." [Added the (and file) now.]

I've heard a lot of responses as to how seriously CTIPs are treated. Saturday evening the Officer I spoke with said if someone goes to the effort of writing and signing a coherent CTIP form they take it very seriously indeed, more so then an easy phone call. Even anonymous ones are considered. It is not a analogy which completely carries over, but we all know an elected official weighs an original letter more heavily then a phone call.

Of course, in the course of transition from being "a report to the police" to a "police report" the Officer will use their judgement in assessing the validity and accuracy of the complaint.

Yes, this option specifically addresses those who have something happen to them, or witness something, and do not want to be bothered by a two hour wait for an officer to show up, or whatever.

It also addresses situations where something has happened which is not an emergency. The Zone Commander I spoke with Saturday evening told me they are up to 180,000 phone calls this year already. Last year I reported a break-in to the building next to mine through the online form, and fifteen minutes later the force and dogs were going through the building. I knew one of the canine officer handlers, (and the dog too), so asked if someone else had called it in, and was told no, they were there in response to my CTIP submission. I've written reports after accidents and promptly received the CCRC I needed for insurance purposes. I rather fancy this approach unless it's an emergency.

I believe I wrote "That is not accurate, scott", not as you put it, "You're wrong, wrong, wrong"?

Maybe if enough people (who otherwise could not be bothered) had submitted a CTIP about dangerous and suspicious activity at the Negley Sunoco, maybe the biker wouldn't have taken a stray slug?

Hey, it's worth a shot, isn't it?

All I care about is having people who would otherwise not go to the police and report an incident, file a report to prevent further incidents. That is all.

Saturday evening the Officer I spoke with said if someone goes to the effort of writing and signing a coherent CTIP form they take it very seriously indeed, more so then an easy phone call.

That's what I would expect. An actual piece of paper signed by a witness counts for a lot. Something easier like a phone call counts for less. I'd say an email is even easier than a phone call, so I wouldn't find it surprising if it counts for even less in their eyes.

On the other hand, your description of prompt police action following your online report is encouraging.

...a stray slug ... worth a shot,...

Ouch.

All I care about is having people who would otherwise not go to the police and report an incident, file a report to prevent further incidents.

My concern is that some people who would ordinarily call the police might decide to use the web form instead, and never see an officer, and that might result in less of a response. I agree that the people who would otherwise do nothing should be encouraged to report each incident some way or other.

I'll be interested to see if Scott gets the same info from his police contact as you've gotten from yours.

"My concern is that some people who would ordinarily call the police might decide to use the web form instead, and never see an officer, and that might result in less of a response. I agree that the people who would otherwise do nothing should be encouraged to report each incident some way or other."

Read the "fussed-with" thread. OP was "assaulted". I made no mention of the online option and tried to talk the OP into calling 911. Another poster presented the OP with the CTIP option. The OP chose the CTIP option. People are entitled to chose. It is patronizing of you or me or anyone to make that choice for them.

"Saturday evening the Officer I spoke with said if someone goes to the effort of writing and signing a coherent CTIP form they take it very seriously indeed, more so then an easy phone call.

That's what I would expect. An actual piece of paper signed by a witness counts for a lot. Something easier like a phone call counts for less. I'd say an email is even easier than a phone call, so I wouldn't find it surprising if it counts for even less in their eyes."

You misread and misunderstood. No physical piece of paper was discussed. The CTIP form is the online form, and by signing the Officer meant providing contact information.

"I'll be interested to see if Scott gets the same info from his police contact as you've gotten from yours."

I've spoken with multiple independent contacts over the past five years. If scott does not get the same answers, he's asking the wrong questions of the wrong people. Hey, as I've mentioned in another thread on this subject. Fact check me. Your Zone Station is open 24/7. Or perhaps you'd rather not call or visit the Police? I know where there's an online form you can submit?

Review the thread about the two doctors who were victims of a hit and run. I think three posters mention a similar encounter before the doctors were victimized. Not one of them to my knowledge thought their encounter worthy of reporting by phone or in person. Had those posters the option of submitting a report online, and done so, perhaps...

Point is here is a means to alert the Police to all those "marginal" encounters, an option for people who would otherwise not go to or call the Police to report an incident, and another choice for citizens to report an incident or crime.

@fungi - your earlier post in response to Scott was helpful and appeared to be researched - as we have come to expect from you.

But then at the end you tag on that last paragraph. I thought it was really unfortunate and unnecessary. You made your point, but then to go after Scott like that was really uncalled-for.

It's clear that by now (if ever) you don't care how you rub people. If you did want to change the impression you make here, you might start by not insulting everyone with whom you disagree.

@fungicyclist. when did I recommend people call 311 over submitting the tip form that you recommended? I recommended people call the police which means calling 911. If you continue with your completely unconstructive behavior I will ban you.

I hope it doesn't come to that. Fungicyclist has made some very good points recently. For example, he's pointed out an option for people who otherwise wouldn't report an incident to the police at all, and his work on interpreting Title 75 subsection 3301(b) was illuminating. I've raised questions or partially disagreed about both, but have to give him credit for figuring this stuff out in the first place. I'd hate to see someone whose points have often been constructive and educational banned over a question of diplomacy.

Sounds like what you need is a POLICE vest if you're going to be riding ELB after dark.

Nearly six years ago, when we were first discussing the idea of launching an online message board, we knew that the only way it would work was if people were respectful to each other. We don't want this to be like other online communities where people hide behind screen names and behave like jerks. We don't want this to be an exclusive club that's tough to break into. We want this to be an asset to the local bike riding community, where people are free to post their opinions, meet other people, and ask questions without feeling intimidated; and without a doubt it's been an unbelievable success. In large part this is because nearly 100 percent of all of you who contribute to this message board are at very least respectful, if not outright warm, kind, funny, welcoming, generous and creative.

Good points aside, even more importantly to me is how those points are made. This message board is not meant for only those of us currently posting. We want to encourage many many more people to feel comfortable posting for the first time and engaging in constructive dialogue. In order to do that the forums need to remain respectful and welcoming, even when people disagree with one another. Fungicyclist has not been respectful since starting to post here. If he wants to be a jerk, fine by me, but he's not going to do it here.

+1 to Scott's comment. Aside from very infrequent trolling, this is quite likely one of the politest, respectful corners of the internets. There are a lot of divergent views held on this board, yet we manage to have intelligent (mostly) conversations (except when jerks post dumb pictures). I think that's a result of two things:

1. Most of us post with our real names.

2. We are very likely to see one another on the street, so the maxim of "don't type something you wouldn't say to someone's face" has real traction.

Your mother named you bjanaszek?

Damn skippy.

I started posting here about a year ago. In that time two things stand out to me:

1. The sense of community this board helps to promote among the people who use it -- especially among you folks in the Burgh who are on it every day.

2. The joy of watching a bunch of bright people with a ton of mental energy to spare burn it off in all sorts of ways:

(A). Tag-O-Rama, which has taught me more about the city than I ever knew.

(. A thread about protractors complete with protracted punnery.

(C). Verbatim quotes of Marx Brothers movie dialogue in the middle of some hijacked thread.

(D). The meaning of "DO NOT HUMP" on railroad cars (This is one of a number of things that sent me off to research or look up and learn something interesting that I didn't know before)

(E). The caring and compassion you show for each other. Dr. Vacarello is the best example.

I wish I got to Pittsburgh more often from Butler. It would be nice to get to meet you all in person.

@bjanaszek

I thought for the most part that conversation was quite intelligent

We want to encourage many many more people to feel comfortable posting for the first time and engaging in constructive dialogue.

Your words mean nothing without action. Why is timito still an active poster then?

To be honest, no one came forward to tell me that Timito was making them feel uncomfortable, and I've never really read his threads too closely to monitor the situation. Sorry. I usually don't have time to check the message board all that frequently (for example, I completely missed the vegan vs. carnivore thread until bjanaszek posted a link to it). In this case I heard directly from one other person (besides me, who was the direct recipient of Fungi's jerkish behavior) that they felt that Fungi wasn't being a constructive member of this board. If people notify my I can try my best to get a handle of it. Sort of like my earlier comment regarding calling 911 - the police can't respond if they don't know it's happening.

Timito... I've noticed that the arguments he gets into here tend to be very focused flashes in the pan, and he self regulates and disappears for a spell afterwards - something that I really appreciate (and often do IRL).

fungi - I think adds a whole lot of good to the board, I just think he comes across the wrong way sometimes and the way he reacts to the response doesn't always sit well with me, maybe others too.

I struggle with the distinction in general, personally - is blocking out a voice that is difficult to listen to comfortably an act of self defence or a missed learning opportunity? Both?

The only thing I'm ever sure of is that communication is difficult in the best of circumstances, and I'm probably not as good at it as I could be.

I'm hesitant to throw in my tuppence and extend this any more than necesary, but I must.

Scott is one of the most level-headed, well-spoken, and diplomatic individuals I've had the pleasure of meeting, and if he perceives something as a problem, then it's a significant problem.

Everybody occasionally has issues that they get particularly fired-up and passionate about, I know I have and I've had that pointed out to me, but when someone abjectly fails to recognize or even admit that they have stepped over a line, sees absolutely no wrong in something they have posted, that's a problem.

There was a post toward ejwme not long ago that was absolutely awful.

The other one who's name I won't name but starts with a t tends to run off and "self-ban".

I don't know edmonds, fungi made me think. I don't think that's an awful thing. It maybe wasn't the easiest thing to hear, but on reflection, I decided he had a good point and I really needed to hear it. I'm glad for it (despite my relative silence at the time, it's been a while digesting). I know MOST of the time the things I need to hear are the things I don't want to hear.

But that's the lovely thing about this board. I think we're all comfortable enough with each other that we can say some stuff that's hard to say, support each other through it, and ride together after.

ej, you're a kind and understanding person, with a robust underlying strength and confidence that allows you to accept constructive criticism. If you did not posess these qualities, you would not be out mucking about in the automotive status quo. Rare qualities.

Nonetheless, the most valuable of messages can be completely lost when it is delivered with the thick end of an axe handle, rather than with some tact and diplomacy. I would certainly not advocate draconian board moderation, it has not been the case, it does not seem to have been needed. But axe handle criticism will not draw tentative new recruits to the cause. I believe that is the point.

I don't know how well I accept constructive criticism (I do tend to take everything too personally ) but I see the point. I think that's why the mix on here is such a vital thing - the more independent views the more likely two people will find agreement and support in each other for whatever they're thinking outloud about.

I do hope the tentative are always encouraged. A quiet voice is no less valuable for the lack of volume.

ejwme- you're too kind. Fungi, I think likes to be a contrarian and just take the opposite position of whatever is being said.

Regarding the other poster, he can cause a kerfluffle when he posts, but sporadic enough that I don't think it changes the tennor of the message board.

and Scott, thank goodness you aren't spending more time monitoring the boards and less time advocating

@ejwwme: if only everyone were as forgiving as you...

However, you are overlooking the key factor to all of this: Fungi clearly puts a lot of thought into his posts. And I agree he tends toward the cantrarian. The problem we are discussing here now relates to his insults and attacks towards those with whom he disagrees.

We all disagree from time-to-time, but this Board can do without the insults and personal attacks (both passive and aggressive) that were too common in fungi's posts.

Here on a thread about someone being physically attacked, and we're fretting over people's feelings being hurt by text on a screen. It's the internet, everybody comes off as a jerk sometimes. It would be a problem if it were the primary tenor of the forums, but it's not.

This post was started about whether to call 911 or use some web form to notify the police and whether they are equivalent. This is VERY important to have a correct answer to and should NOT be anyone’s “opinion!”

Having any poster comment that they have talked to a cop friend, etc., etc., is not good enough. Scott said he would check into it and have an official response and everyone should wait for that response – attached to a known official police person. There is real safety involved here, not just people’s feelings.

Everybody comes off as a jerk sometimes, others, it's their MO

One reason I joined the message board was because it seemed safe. I read different threads for a few months before I joined. Because of how friendly everyone was not only did I join the board I also joined group rides and participated in lots of activities posted here. The result of that my monthly milage went from 80 miles a month to 300 miles a month. I try to proof read my comments and quickly apologize if I sound rude. ( like in my "I need a team decaf buddy" thread) I do appreciate Scott keeping this a safe place for us all, because of that I sold my 2nd car and ride more than I drive.

i know off-hand at least a dozen people that read but don't post. and thats just me and my mtb riding, car (and suv) driving, friends. extrapolate that across our entire community. i try to keep that in mind when posting here.

Back to the topic at hand. My contact in the Police Department (who is very nice and incredibly community-focused) had this to say:

"The online tip form functions as its name implies. The tips are forwarded to the appropriate unit for follow up and investigation. It is NOT an official police report. If an officer follows up on the tip by phone or in person and the tipster wants to provide their name and more information a police report can be filed (assuming there is evidence of a crime, not just suspicious activity.)

"You are correct about calling 911. If a person is assaulted, robbed, threatened, accosted, harassed, etc., 911 should be called right away. The first step would be ensuring your personal safety. Call 911 and give a description and direction of flight for the suspects. The caller should give a description of themselves and their exact location and wait for the officer to arrive. I would not suggest waiting until you get home to call. By calling as soon as it is safe, you give the officers the opportunity to search for the suspects and potentially make an arrest. The more time that passes the less likely we are to find the suspects. If you are a victim of a property crime when you have no suspect information (stolen bike, vehicle break-in, etc.) time is not necessarily of the essence. You can call 911 and make a police report over the phone or have an officer come out to take your report in person."

Someone broke into my car a few months ago. I called 911 to file a report per my insurance company’s request. The 911 operator took my information and about 10 minutes later a Pgh Police officer called me back. She asked me if I needed an officer dispatched or if I wanted to file the report over the phone. I gave her all the details over the phone and she then provided her badge number and report number for my insurance company. It’s not that difficult to file a report over the phone.

Can’t we all just get along?

Thanks Scott. Looks like the online tip thing may be an online work-around to eventually get the same place, but the workaround takes time that may not be the best idea in all situations.

I kind of like that they have to actually speak to a human (even if only over the phone)... maybe eventually we'll be to the point where an "online chat" is an acceptable substitute, but I hope not. So much is lost when you remove all that extra visual and audio information (she types on an online forum).

There are plenty of times where I don't expect the police to do squat about it but it would be nice to have something on record for statistical purposes or whatnot. but I'm not sure if the "tip form" is any good for that or not.

"Looks like the online tip thing may be an online work-around to eventually get the same place, but the workaround takes time that may not be the best idea in all situations."

Well... not really. Sorry for belaboring this point, but it is not a work around for 911 and can't replace what a 911 call will do. Is it better than nothing? Sure, but no where near as good as getting the police on the scene searching for the perps ASAP.

OH - no, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to confuse things more, your post was clear - I wasn't!

I meant an online workaround for filing a non-emergent situation type report, not an online workaround for emergency calling 911. Nothing replaces a 911 call (I've heard even running up to an officer won't get you what you need when you have to call 911, but that may be anecdotal heresay).

I always hated calling 911 for anything other than an "I'm bleeding/on fire/he has a gun/they're in my house" kind of emergency. Like "stupid jerks broke a window and stole the quarters from my car" calls - things that require police reports but I hate taking up 911 operator time to explain/talk about. Thank god I've never had to make a call of the former type, just the latter type - and now that I know about the form, I might use it for the latter type rather than trying to simultaneously and clearly apologize and declare a non-emergency to the poor operators. They're always cool about it and super nice and polite, but I feel like the worlds' biggest jagoff for taking up their time when they could be saving choking babies or helping terrified people in pain.

I think it's because I saw a movie/show with Marlee Matlin in it where someone is after her and she dials 911 from a pay phone and starts screaming into it but since her character is deaf she can't hear that it's a busy message asking her to wait for the next operator... I know it's not real, I know they staff the phones to support a call volume that includes non-emergent calls for police attention... It will just always bug me.

Again, I'm sorry for confusing things worse!

so can I call 911 and only have a conversation with an officer on the phone, or is there another number that i can call to just file a police report without having to talk to the police officer in person or stay in one place?

I've tried to call the district precinct directly, and they told me to call 911. Maybe you can request to just file a phone report?

Mark, you need to call 911 in an emergency. If you want to talk to an officer on the phone, call the Zone nearest you and ask to speak to an officer. They can take a report then.

i understand the importance of alerting the police of these situations in a timely fashion. In most scenarios I don't want to deal with police face to face after something like this happens for personal reasons. if we can come up with a solution that meets both my needs and the needs of the cycling community then I'm all for it... if we can't then I'll be using the tip form unless it is an emergency in my eyes, which is probably a lot different than what an emergency in the police's or your eyes.

after I was hit by a car and went to the hospital in an ambulance 4 years ago the cop who interviewed me in the hospital not only made several comments about how i was a dirty bike kid (i was on the way back from doing demo work on a house and was pretty dirty) and i should clean up my act and get a car and this stuff wouldn't happen, but also was just plain uninterested in the fact that i had been hit by a car less than an hour before and was sitting in the hospital (blame the victim, blame the victim, blame the victim). between this and several run-ins with police during group rides over the years I know there are several cops that view cyclists as a separate subclass of people when it comes to their time and energy.

this is my first problem with calling 911, I don't think that police necessarily should have anything to do with two groups of people that they continually marginalize. this is not to say that I think cyclists have to deal with anywhere near the amount of bullshit from cops that the youth in that area have to deal with, it's not even comparable.

the second reason i don't want to deal with cops face to face. if one of those officers shows up at my house undoubtedly sitting outside with its lights on at 11pm any night I have just invited a 20 questions game with each of my 70 year old neighbors that will probably contain the phrase "those rotten black kids." I'm not into this scenario for so many reasons that I'm not going to list them all, but the biggest one is the race relations in this city, especially between the older steel generations and the younger black generations, are horrible. I don't want to contribute anything to making them worse, or give the neighborhood another vague and soon to be vastly exaggerated story about how a guy on a bike in the neighborhood was attacked in east liberty by a gang.

the best solution I can think of in the middle ground is to find the police station nearest to this situation, sit down and talk to the chief there and have an agreed upon plan for when this happens. this could include calling 911 and asking to speak to that zone, calling the zone directly, or cyclists knowing where this station is and just going there... i know a lot of people would probably feel better if they could sit down and collect their thought for 10 minutes in a police station (a station that has is aware that these people might be coming in) if something like this happened but the person rode away relatively unharmed.

so, questions:

is there one zone that covers stanton, black street, negley, highland, east liberty blvd, and penn ave? if so what is it, if not where is the closest police station, is it a reasonable bike ride, and would cooperate with us? this is the only place in the city that anything like this has happened to me and its happened multiple times to me and other folks too, this is the area for which having a plan would be useful.

can we insist that we just want to report it over the phone if we don't need or want any medical attention? is this some sort of breach in the rules that will cause problems?

sorry this has been such a long discussion, but dealing with the police is scary to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and if there was a plan that most people agreed upon that could get these things reported quickly without making shaken up people even more uncomfortable then I think it would be reported more often and in the long run fix the situation sooner. to me calling 911 and being able to say i was attacked in zone x and i'd like to report it, knowing that zone x police have an understanding of whats going on (and maybe they do, but I would like to know that) is much better than a call into 911 where they tell you to stay put till an officer gets there.

attacking this problem from a community organizing standpoint is another option that needs a thread all its own if people are interested in doing it, and I would be interested in helping if there is interest.

Mark, I believe that area is all zone 5. The station is now in the old state police station on Washington Blvd, next to the cycling oval.

You can call 911 and use it as a "tip line" as well. They ask you if you want to wait for the police to show up, if you want to give your name/contact info for follow up. you don't have to wait around or give your name.

For instance, there was once a violent situation outside my old house, i called 911, didn't give any of my info, and they came pretty quick to the scene. and dealt with it.

they are very sensitive to the fact that some people want to remain anonymous.

...then, when you get home, you can write a more detailed report. the reason i think this is so sensitive is because (i think it was) last year, there was someone who was attacked, but got away, didn't call 911, then a several minutes later, someone else ended up getting attacked for real instead. had 911 been called, the police may have shown up before the second person biked past.

When someone calls about being assaulted, mugged, or an attempted mugging the police need to send an officer to verify if you need assistance. The person calling in the report could be the Black Knight from Monty Python…I'm ok it’s only a flesh wound…

of course, but they ask you that, and you can refuse.

I don't want to contribute anything to making them worse

The ones who are making the situation worse are those who violently attack others for no reason, not those who call the police when they have been attacked.

Edit: Found a better version of the Police Zones Map:

http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/police/zonemap.htm

In that area, you can either go down to the Washington Boulevard station or to Squirrel Hill--neither is very easily accessible.

the people that assume every black adolescent is rotten contribute evenly to the problem. I saw a kid ride out into the street in sq hill the other day and stop a bus tankman style. when the bus honked its horn after about 5 seconds the biker just flipped off the driver and rode off. i'm sure that everyone on the bus went home and told this story of this rotten biker and that effects all of us. how the person tells the story has a lot to do with how the story evolves, and when there is a prejudice it usually evolves in a way that more negatively impacts the prejudiced community, and the more people that tell the story the more it spreads and evolves.

that's what I thought about the police stations, its a shame that the police station near penn and penn circle isn't there anymore... that would be perfect.

i feel more comfortable calling 911 now.

"The ones who are making the situation worse are those who violently attack others for no reason"

To say the least, it's kind of a confirmation bias. I doubt those engaging in the attacks are basing their behavior on how racists are going to interpret it

Mark, the community organizing approach was briefly talked about last year, but the conversation dissolved as fast as the rash of attacks. As others mentioned, and you probably already know, there's a plethora of issues involved, and I think it's going to be hard to single out bicycle attacks from the entangled issues

A road block to the community oriented approach would be the (relative) lack of community along ELB--not many people live along that stretch of road, so there aren't neighbors who are concerned about safety (and I suspect those that live along Larimer Avenue have bigger things to worry about). Then again, if there were residences along ELB, we might not even be having this discussion....

i havent been able to read all of the responses to Mark, but this is what I do:

I live in the area that is Zone 5. Sometimes at 2am, there is an incredible ruckus outside. Sometimes I ignore it, but once or twice I looked out the window and watched a guy physically beating a lady. so I called the cops. I made 300x sure that those cops WERE NOT TO SHOW UP AT MY HOME. I obviously did not want the guy who was harming this person to see where his potential next victim was. They obliged and I have never been visited by officers when I have called them, though they do ask for my address.

as for the tip line, I would use that to report the amount of activity and traffic going on at a neighboring home that I may have become suspicious of. Say what you will about snitching, but I own a house and I dont want some slumlord renting his out to drug dealers that are causing a disturbance where I live, and I dont want to pick up heroin needles when I mow my lawn. So, that is what I believe the tip form to be for.

i would now like to invite everyone to read the first chapter, about sidewalks, porches, and eyes on the street, in Jane Jacobs' The Death and Life of Great American cities

Mark, do you remember the name of the officer who interviewed you in the hospital, his badge number, or anything about him?

I can look through the stuff that I have and see if it's on there... it might be tough because he was not the same guy who was at the scene who took the witness statements or the same as the "investigating officer" who I dealt with for the next couple months afterwords (the investigating officer was really nice)... i'll look through the papers I have and see what I can find.

caitlin, i would like to read that! shall I visit the library?

bike pgh should have a library for members!

But The Library has this book and a lending system in place already! We could come up with a cool reading list, but really, the publications themselves should really be taken out at the Library. We shouldn't recreate a system that has already been established and works.

I actually love the idea of a reading list. There are really interesting books mentioned here. CLP ftw

actually a reading list with the places you can get them is a way easier way better idea

Here are a few off the top of my head (not nearly exhaustive).

Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs

City: Rediscovering the Center by William Whyte

Traffic: Why We Drive the Way We Do by Tom Vanderbilt

Green Metropolis by David Owen

The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoupe (this one is real long - might just want to read some stuff online that synthesizes it)

Pedaling Revolution: How Cyclists Are Changing American Cities by Jeff Mapes

The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York by Robert A. Caro

+? For Traffic and Moses books

When people complain that it takes too long to plan, design, and construct large public works, point to the works of Robert Moses and ask if haste and hubris are precepts you can live with.

The Geography of Nowhere is another good one.

Traffic (or at least some chapters of it) should be required reading before anyone is allowed to buy a car.

Kunstler has a more recent one on peak oil that Erok said is pretty good

I would be glad to lend the Jane Jacobs book but I want it back. The library has it though. She lived in Pittsburgh fora bit.

I am reading the geography of nowhere right now.

I keep mentioning the parking book in another thread! Read it! In the parking thread (I think) I posted a link to an article that synthesizes it pretty well.

There is a 'zine collection at the Oakland library with several bike-related items. It would be neat if they made a display during bike fest....hmmm, maybe I'll suggest this to my friend who works there.

hyla, they've done that in the past. but def bring it up again.

It's very nice the way this conversation evolved back into community again.

Chris Briem on his blag, has a nice "Carousel Widget" of selected books.