BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

It just sounds like drunken asshats being drunken asshats. I hope the judge throws the book at the them. Idiots like this give us all a bad name.

Sounds like they deserve tickets. Can't wait to see what the comments are going to be.

Passing a police wagon in the oncoming lane. Running from police (with lights and sirens). Attempting to flee once blocked by vehicle. I suppose it is possible there "may be more to the story," but this sure looks like a couple of jagoffs. Stupid is as stupid does. Natural consequences are a great teacher. At least nobody got hurt.

"Experience is a dear teacher, but some will have no other."

> Passing a police wagon in the oncoming lane. This one should be legal if they were under the speed limit--after all, if we're trying to convince drivers to cross over to pass us.... The rest, however, sounds like pure stupid.

it sounds as though there is more to the story than "cops chased erratic cyclist punks".

When I saw the subject, I was hoping this would be a practical "how-to" thread.

pbeaves wrote:it sounds as though there is more to the story than “cops chased erratic cyclist punks”.

No, not at all actually. Assuming the trib story is accurate, it sounds like some drunken morons were being drunk and moronic in front of the cops, and then, instead of stopping when confronted, they tried to get away and failed. EDIT: in the interest of fairness, I should not assume the cyclists were drunk. I made that inference based on this happening on a Saturday night in the South Side. For all I know, they could have been sober and moronic. I'm going to stick with my assumption that they were moronic.

Did anyone else see the news on WPXI last night (monday 5/20) as well? EDITED So I'm editing this post since I was just informed that the incident in-question was badly-reported by the news. While a person riding a bike did-get into an altercation with another individual in a personal level, it had nothing to do with cycling, bikes, drivers, or anything bike-related at all. Please disregard! And also FAIL to the channel. When I saw the news last night they made it sound like a bigger thing than it really is.

Do we think there is more to the story because they are cyclist and we can't believe cyclist would ever do such a thing? Is sound like they were delivering subs so fast they mad the police freak

The story definitely sounds to me as if the guys were riding aggressively with little regard to road law during a period of time that South Side streets are notoriously traffic-congested and cops are on the lookout for intoxicated machine-operaters, of which I'm assuming these gentlemen were two. They may have gotten away with a warning if they'd've stopped and talked with the police. Generally, when police try to pull you over it is in your best interest to pull over, not evade. Additionally, I have noticed increased police presence in South Side (due to recent events), as well as increased police interactions with cyclists (being pulled over, reprimanded, and given a warning for a right-turn-on-red). We beg to be given our deserved equal rights on the roads, but with that comes the obligation to adhere to all of the currently established rules of the road and if we do not, then we take the chance of police intervention. Obviously, with an increase in cycling, there will need to (perhaps, someday, I hope!) be more specific laws directed toward cyclists, as several situations specific to cycling (especially urban cycling) bring unique circumstances. Other cities that have a heavy cycling culture/presence have created specific laws, like allowing cyclists to use standard red lights as stop signs, which prevents cycling-related congestion, yadda yadda, but until that happens, there will be a learning curve. Best to be pleasant and listen to The Man, since in most interactions, they have the power.

"then one of the officers shoved Walsh off his bike when he tried to pull away" This somehow doesn't seem completely right, but I guess under the circumstances... Kind of reminds me of this.

Knocking him off his bike is the same as dragging someone out of their car if they try to drive off.

I think you meant this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J23HNJBbpcg I thought normal protocol in the South Side was to shoot at people evading the police; perhaps another benefit of cycling is that cops don't perceive you as a deadly weapon

This somehow doesn’t seem completely right, but I guess under the circumstances… This might be my inner curmudgeon coming out, but it sounds like a legit take-down to me. Given the circumstances, the officer probably could have justified using a Taser.

With no other information to base it on, sound like a pair of douches. That said, made me think of this. http://youtu.be/5extIQ3EXjM

If the cop had pulled the guy off his bike that would have sounded ok. Or even stuck a nightstick in the spokes. Shoving implies you were close enough (or closer) to do one of the other things. But of course I wasn't there and can't possibly say anything about what actually happened. Just wondering. I'll let the judge decide.

I definitely agree with the above posters who stated the "shoving" seems to be a reasonable use of force by the police. I am by no means for the use of excessive force, but from the report it appears they needed to subdue the cyclist, who was obviously still attempting to evade. At that point, the police are considering/assuming that the person fleeing has a nice (criminal) reason for trying so hard to evade them, which is usually the case. Also why I stated that if they weren't obviously intoxicated and were polite with the officers, who knows—they may have gotten a warning to abide by traffic laws, or possibly just a citation for something minor. My interactions thus far with police (when I've been theoretically in the wrong) have been more tsk-tsk then stomp-stomp. Then again, my level of d-baggery was likely much lower, as I subscribe to the [STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING]/"Yes, sir/ma'am" method of interacting with authorities.

Ahlir wrote:If the cop had pulled the guy off his bike that would have sounded ok. Or even stuck a nightstick in the spokes. Shoving implies you were close enough (or closer) to do one of the other things. But of course I wasn’t there and can’t possibly say anything about what actually happened. Just wondering. I’ll let the judge decide.

Playing armchair quarterback is dangerous and presumptive, even when you have clear video of what happened. Have you ever played football, rugby, or any sport that requires you to bring someone who is attempting to flee to the ground? It's a lot harder than it looks. Sometimes your best bet is to knock your target off balance and then follow up by gaining wrist control.

Side note: Channel 11 tried really really really hard to interview me about this and about riding in traffic on the South Side while I was at work today (I do bike delivery for the Jimmy John's on the 1700 block of Carson), even though I don't work weekends and didn't see the incident and don't know anything about it. But I ride a bike, so I must know everyone else who rides a bike and know about everything they do, right? My managers refused to let us talk to them, which is probably for the best, but I have a feeling there will be a whole lot of B-roll of me delivering sandwiches on the news tonight, because they creepily sat outside the store filming us delivering forrrrever during our lunch rush, and then they sat with cameras at intersections nearby for a while too... I'm just hoping there's no footage of me doing anything ostensibly illegal

Fear not @pearmask they only filmed your feet. I know your shoes, pedals, and straps.

Ahlir wrote: “then one of the officers shoved Walsh off his bike when he tried to pull away” This somehow doesn’t seem completely right, but I guess under the circumstances… Kind of reminds me of this.

Wow. You never know. I think the Pittsburgh Police really need a total overhaul. It happened in NYC and the city has changed for the better IMHO. Around here it is a mess IMHO. There should be no off duty officers hired for door people anywhere in the city. That reeks of corruption and conflicts of interest!

God, if that kid hadn't been stopped he might have taken out any number of parked cars, pedestrians, and storefronts! Thank god! Wait, is zero a number? FTP.

edmonds59 wrote:God, if that kid hadn’t been stopped he might have taken out any number of parked cars, pedestrians, and storefronts! Thank god! Wait, is zero a number?FTP.

Unfortunately, "zero" is not a number in this case where a cyclist speeding through an intersection killed a pedestrian and is now being charged with felony gross vehicular manslaughter. Although certainly less deadly than motor vehicles, one must still respect the lives of others.

gg wrote:I think the Pittsburgh Police really need a total overhaul.

A total overhaul where, when you try to run away from the police, they don't try to grab you? Come on, now. If you try to get away, you're going to get shoved, grabbed, or stopped somehow.

I once saw a officer tackle someone running from then like a linebacker, and the guy still kept trying to get away. are you just sensitive about it because he was on a bike?

Meh, I'm not going to get heavily into this line of discourse because I don't actually care all that much. But yes lizzimac, through the revelation of evidence and due process, "that case" was entirely appropriate. I just believe that police response to things should be commensurate with the actual danger to society. And they need to be accountable for their actions. And no one should ever feel obligated to address a police officer as "sir", that's bullshit. They are public servants, not our goddamn overseers.

edmonds59 wrote: I just believe that police response to things should be commensurate with the actual danger to society.

I think the response was commensurate with the danger to society. The police saw some idiots swerving into oncoming traffic and ordered them to stop. The situation only escalated when the suspects attempted to flee. It was resolved when the perps were tackled, cuffed, and booked for their stupidity. Had the cops not ordered them to stop, they may have caused a collision by weaving through traffic, especially if they were crossing the center line. Think about what would happen if a car, truck, or bus swerved to avoid a head-on collision with some asshats that veered into the oncoming lane. The potential for injury and destruction of property was simply too high. Kudos to the cops for making the right call.

Ok.

pearmask wrote:Side note: Channel 11 tried really really really hard to interview me about this...

I saw this, I ate there yesterday and watched the girl try to talk to a few folks. No WPXI logo, so I wasn't sure what was going on. I may have been in the background as they were filming the one rider coming back as I was walking up to the store.

"At that point, the police are considering/assuming that the person fleeing has a nice (criminal) reason for trying so hard to evade them, which is usually the case." - Yeah, tell that to Jordan Miles "Wow. You never know. I think the Pittsburgh Police really need a total overhaul. It happened in NYC and the city has changed for the better IMHO." - Tell that to the NYC minority population who gets stopped and frisked more times than their population, and 90% of the time The Police comes up with nothing "I think the response was commensurate with the danger to society. The police saw some idiots swerving into oncoming traffic and ordered them to stop." And we automatically assume The Police are right. Isn't traffic in the SS on Carson St usually gridlocked during that time? So what I'm picturing is the bikes trying to go around essentially stopped cars. Not much room to maneuver. Maybe the bike was moving up the line of cars to make a left hand turn and crossed the line a little bit, something that cars do all the time. And yeah, that's really a danger to society! "where a cyclist speeding through an intersection killed a pedestrian" Nobody accused these guys of speeding through intersections or even breaking right of way laws The problem I think I and others have here, is that the cops can't be bothered to do anything when people actually get hurt by cars, myself included, and the other homicides, which have only been dealt with because people literally brought the offenders to the cops. They do essentially 0 traffic enforcement of people speeding, driving inattentively, etc, stuff that actually kills people, but when some dude crosses the yellow line on a bike, they're going on a Police chase

@Pierce, while I agree with you about the police mostly not enforcing laws that would protect cyclists, I really can't imagine any of us would want to live in a world where if the police tell someone to stop doing something illegal, and they run away, the police would let them go. Regardless of whether what they were doing was a really significant violation of the law or not.

Pierce: What happened to Jordan Miles was not okay, I'll give him that. I'm stating as a general rule when the cops tell you to stop and comply, it is in your best interest to stop and comply. It is not valid in 100% of situations, but that is life, unfortunately. As to you quoting my reference to the cyclist who killed a pedestrian—I was not comparing that case to this event at all. I brought up that case to indicate a situation in which a bicycle has been a deadly vehicular weapon in response to a comment that bicycles are never deadly weapons. I was not suggesting that these accused gentlemen were acting in such a manner as to kill a pedestrian or were committing the same actions as that case, although JaySherman5000 brings up a valid point where cyclists riding in such a manner could trigger a series of traffic events that could have the ability to cause property/life destruction. I'll end the discussion to say that I feel as cyclists we are at a drastic disadvantage on the road, but that doesn't negate us from having to follow laws or choosing to not follow those laws and take our chances at being reprimanded. If I decide to make an illegal action on my bicycle and am caught by police, I will pull over, and if ticketed, I will pay my ticket, and if said ticket is for speeding, I will post it to facebook.

"tell that to..." blah blah blah [red herrings everywhere] None of those cases are relevant to the incident described in the trib story in this thread. As I already said, ASSUMING THE STORY IS ACCURATE, the police were absolutely right to order the cyclists to stop after observing their reckless behavior. When the cyclists refused to comply, that's when the situation escalated. Had the suspects simply stopped and taken the stern talking to and/or citation, there would have been no police chase. Regardless of the state of traffic on Carson (or any street) there is a right and wrong way to filter through traffic, and clearly the cyclists in this story were doing it wrong.

"The problem I think I and others have here, is that the cops can’t be bothered to do anything when people actually get hurt by cars..." When cops see asshats careening into oncoming traffic at 1am, on a weekend in the busiest, drunkiest section of town, should it be any surprise that maybe they conclude that when cyclists are hurt by cars it's our fault? Idiotic behavior, such as that described in the news article above, is what makes people, including the police, hate us and not want to do anything when one of us hurt or killed in traffic. I can understand taking exception with police activity now and then, but I have ZERO patience for blatant stupidity.

Maybe if the Police used statistical data to engage in law enforcement rather than stereotypes they'd be a lot more effective at actually reducing crime/accidents I got hit when there were no other moving vehicles in sight on a four lane road, I'm pretty sure the guys who were killed on Penn Ave did as well Even if the story is accurate, your loaded terms like "careening," make my scenario seem totally impossible. From the manual: "it’s usually legal for you, or any driver, to cautiously disobey normal traffic rules when the road is “obstructed." For all we know, the guys were doing just that, but when the cop throws around words like "weaving" and you use words like "careening," the story quickly changes in the cop's favor

your loaded terms like “careening,” Well now you're just being pedantic. What other word(s) give an accurate depiction of cyclists weaving through traffic, haphazardly crossing into oncoming traffic at 1am on a Saturday night? And what stereotypes, exactly, were the police using to order two careless cyclists to stop doing illegal things? If the cyclists in question were acting cautiously, then why was there a confrontation at all? All signs point to this being a case of idiots on bikes being idiots in front of the police and getting called out for it. Regardless of whatever cases of alleged malfeasance you want to cherry-pick from the PPD's past, this sounds like an open and shut case. Again, this is all assuming the story is accurate. I don't think your scenario of "totally and always innocent cyclists being harassed by overlord neo-gestapo police-state enforcers" is impossible, but I do think its probability of being true is negligible at best.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/bicyclist-arrested-busy-south-side-street/nXybP/ Sharrows...bike lane..tomato...tomatoe

The last words of the report: "Police don't make many stops of cyclists because cyclists know the rules of the road and usually follow them."

I am the biker that this article is about and it's kind of a bummer to see so many people jump to conclusions regarding this incident. First off, this article and the other one floating around on the internet is complete and utter bullshit, that only managed to see the light of day because there was nothing else happening in the news that week. I was not drunk (didn't have even a drop of alcohol that day), I wasn't careening into oncoming traffic, and the police never told me to stop. I was biking through SS with my friend who was new to the city, I turned onto 18th street to start heading back to my house when I police cruiser ran me off the road, an officer opened the door into me, knocking me off of my bike. He stood over me and screamed, "If you stand up, I swear to God I will roundhouse kick you in your goddamn head." After being questioned and harassed, there was a misunderstanding with why my ID had a different address than where I was currently living, and they called more officers because they thought I was lying. When they continued to harass me, I said, "You should really be stopping the drunk assholes that ran my friend and I off the road two blocks before this who are probably going to kill a family, not two bikers who didn't do anything." The two officers got pissed off, handcuffed me, refused to tell me why I was being arrested, refused to read me my Miranda rights and I spent 18 hours in jail, and received bullshit several traffic violations and an "evading a police officer" felony. When I was finally freed, I read the report and it's pretty similar to this news report, except they added that "a pursuit was called in, unfortunately lines were down and there is no record". That is because there was never a pursuit, we didn't "careen into oncoming traffic", especially considering the fact that it was 1am on a Saturday night in Southside. Anyone familiar with traffic at that time? It's literally a straight line that doesn't move for miles, blocking the box through intersections, with drunk idiots teetering over the yellow line. Yes, we passed cars. No, we didn't do anything in this article, the officers were just mad because I had enough of their brutality and rude behavior, and confronted them about it. I know this is almost a year after the incident, but I just stumbled upon this topic after someone brought it up to me, and it is fairly disheartening how quick some people were to judge given only one side of this story. Although I can't quite say I blame you, considering the gross excuse for journalism that tainted my name and criminal record to this day. Hopefully at least a few people see this. Cheers, Cody Walsh

Given the state of that which passes for "Police", as well as the weak bullshit that passes for journalism now, it is not a stretch to believe your side of the story. Until the good law enforcement officers, as well as their union, reject the actions of the steroid pumped power tripping assholes in their "brotherhood", I have meager respect for any of them. As I said back in May, F.T.P. And F does not stand for "flee".

JinxxedPenguin wrote:it’s kind of a bummer to see so many people jump to conclusions regarding this incident

I apologize for contributing to that. Sorry for what happened to you.

I'll add my bit since I contributed to this thread: A lot of the discussion hinged on "assuming the news reporting (and tangentially, the police reporting) to be truth." Unfortunately, reporting is not always based in facts and truth. The sheer amount of bias I've witnessed in journalism recently has caused me to become skeptical of any/all news reporting. I've been working to be more present in such conversations and to consider opposing sides of issues/arguments, especially when the proposed "facts" (ohgod scare quotes are needed here) are gleaned from news reports. Thank you for the reminder!

@JinxxedPenguin: I'm curious, did you cross into the opposing lane to pass through traffic? Based on what you said, it sounds like you either didn't hear or possibly ignored a lawful command from a police officer. Then, the police interpreted your non-compliance as willfully fleeing, giving them justification to pursue and detain you. Maybe you never heard the command from the police, in which case, it sounds like you were the victim of some bad luck. It sounds like a crappy experience no matter how you slice it. Thanks for sharing your version of the story. I'd like to point out one other inconsistency in the tale: how exactly were you moving through traffic? It's well known that the PA Bicycle Drivers Manual gives advice on getting through a traffic jam, but Pub 380 also says there's a right and wrong way to do it. For example, moving on and off the sidewalk, moving quickly in dense traffic (which can be done, especially when cars are lined up at a stand still for miles), and so forth are generally bad/unsafe practices. Can you describe how you were filtering that night?

Cody, I'm also curious...what was the outcome of the case?

No, he is not a victim of "bad luck." He is a victim of a shit police force that has absolutely no oversight and is never held accountable for anything they do. This is a majority white, middle class community and we have tales of police brutality. Go into a minority community and they have tons more stories that never make the news. I'd also like to pat myself on the back for getting part of the story right: "And we automatically assume The Police are right. Isn’t traffic in the SS on Carson St usually gridlocked during that time? So what I’m picturing is the bikes trying to go around essentially stopped cars. Not much room to maneuver. Maybe the bike was moving up the line of cars to make a left hand turn and crossed the line a little bit, something that cars do all the time. And yeah, that’s really a danger to society!" I mean damn, this is the first time police overreact, right? Bring hyped up charges for non-existent crimes and then drop them after the heat is off? Not at all similar to what happened here: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2014/03/31/Jury-reaches-verdict-in-Jordan-Miles-civil-trial/stories/201403310142 I think the story is even funnier because they were tripped up on a fucking outdated drivers license. Like yeah, nobody ever moves and then forgets to update their license and carry around that stupid card for x years. Never happens. Recall that we live in a society where carrying a license isn't required. But the prick cops decided to hold him on it, I'm assuming, as another form of punitive punishment.

Seems I was spot on. Thanks for posting.