That's a good, accurate article. This area could use a few more good group rides which 1) start at central locations; 2) start at reasonable times; and 3) aren't full-on road races, on the one hand, or unduly slow, on the other. I may try putting on a few this coming year, starting from the Waterfront and going down into the Mon Valley. Anyone interested?
Thanks for posting.
His idea of a group ride might be different than mine.
As riders get better, they seek to distinguish themselves by riding faster on more trendy bikes
Misspelled "worse."
Before the internet, before custom bikes, and before Lance, it was done better.
No it wasn't.
I'ts not my part to whine about geezers, but idea that things (music, young people, morals, whatever) used to be better is almost always a sign of brain deadness.
@Mick, were you riding with groups before that time? While I don't think Lance and custom bikes had anything to do with it the quality of group rides has really fallen since that time.
Hmmm ...
I tried doing a group ride once back last century. Not really my thing.
Has there really been a huge change? I'm guessing they are bigger with more people trying it out. You're right I was kinda projecting there cause I don't know much about group rides.
Everything I've encountered with biking has -without exception- improved over the last 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. Surprisingly that includes my abilities, which peaked with my 2009 DC trip.
Are group rides different? I really am curious as to the exact nature of the differences.
Lord knows I've heard that "Things aren't good anymore," for enough contexts where the person clearly means "There are largely cosmetic differences and I'm a zombie now."
(Primary example: "We didn't use to have crap like Justin Beiber." The mating call of dead people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozqfOzqMvlQ Double extra credit for lasting to the key change at 1:29)
BTW, I didn't mean at all be be critical of your posting that article. It was a good read, even though it made my eyes roll.
Mick, I think you would have a different persepctive if you had experience trying to lead group rides and riding in a peleton. What I got out of skimming the article was that there is an absence of good group rides where new riders can learn to truly handle a road bike well and be safe in a peleton. Outside of the local road racing scene I have found that to be mostly true, although I understand that the Major Taylor rides are very welcoming to beginners and you can learn a lot there.
When I think about "group ride" I think about things like flock.
A ride like Flock, say, obviously isn't included in the realm of what this article means by "group ride." They are using the words as a jargon term.
Me leading a "group ride"? Not a good idea.
Chris -- Thx! And I agree with you -- quility of group rides has fallen.
Very interesting piece, a different point of view than my current. Even when I was "young", "fast", and "hard", I mostly rode solo because any people I could find to ride with would want to stop for things like "rain", or "cold", or "hunger". I am much more laid back now, and would just like to see most people be so as well.
As a broad stroke, I am on board with Mick's position that people who think things used to be better is generally the domain of...what he said.
OTOH, I am totally with the author on his point that just because a person is 40 something and can afford the latest CF electric-shift sled, sometimes you just need to get a "humble bike" (I like that a lot), STFU, and learn the ropes. Worthwhile post.
Good to see people who don't know anything thing about a topic chiming in to bash it. Thanks Mick.
That list at the end of the article is a really good list of things to learn. Unfortunately I had to find out the hard way through racing and road rash in some cases rather than through a group ride. Not that I am an expert by any means now.
@tetris_draftsman Good to see people who don't know anything thing about a topic chiming in to bash it. Thanks Mick.
I know a lot about group rides. I've been to Flock a bunch of times.
(Ok, for effect, imagine me grinding teeth and now making the sound that Marge makes when Homer screws up) As far as riding cred goes, Mick has been car free since before most cycling newts were conceived. So as far as I'm concerned he can say what he wants. And (not to put words, but) he has consciously chosen not to be part of the "sport" culture that has prevented cycling from being accepted as part of everyday life in American society. Apologies if I am being combative, but Mick is kind of (and hopefully I'm not being presumptive) the real deal.
Jake, I would be interested in rides like this. I do need to improve on my bike handling skills and I get nervous riding in a pace line or very close to people. There are only a few people i trust to ride behind. This article does highlight the things I don't like about club rides I have been on. I do like trying to keep up with people faster than me, especially when I have one gear and everyone else has many. I feel Iike the club rides make me ride faster, but so does chasing reddan on smaller rides.
Thanks Edmunds
Actually I should apologize here -
Explanation - I DID start reading that because I'm interested in group rides. Then I got all pissy because the guy was not talking about group rides in general.
I could have phrased it all better. More or less: The change from only having peleton-type group rides to a variety that includes social rides is IMO huge compared with the changes the guy talks about here with his "group rides."
Even though only vaguely familiar with his "groups rides" I believe that is true (and is relatively piss-free.)
I reserve the right - as a geezer- to get in anyone's face when they start up the "things aren't as good as they used to be..." though. A contemporary of mine once said "Those kids rode their bikes through my leaf piles and scattered them all over. We never used to do that stuff when we were kids," and I knew we had hit middle age - hard.
Big bike change for me: until about 2005, I could honestly tell people "I never ride for fun and I never ride for exercise. I mean, I have fun and I get exercise, but I never ride FOR those things."
The new social rides and my training to use the (new) GAP/C&O changed that.
Sorry to stink up the thread.
I had written more but will boil it down to this:
The article resonates with me because I've witnessed and heard of a lot of HUGE DISASTERS and near-misses when riders who can't handle a bike in a group find themselves in a "sport riding" setting for the first time. When I started to ride road bikes I had a ton of experience on many kinds of bikes, motorized and non-motorized, but I still needed to learn the group riding/pace line skills mentioned in the article linked above. I was fortunate to meet folks who really know how to ride well, and safely, and learned a lot. Bottom line: as the article suggests, it would be nice for that opportunity to exist more for others. If that style of riding is not your thing, so be it.
"His idea of a group ride might be different than mine."
This article was obviously about people on road bikes in spandex going out and doing long rides in pace lines. I know MIck rides a bike all over the city in his super low gears but he doesn't know shit about riding in a pace line.
Mick can be your real deal all you like but just because he and you Edmonds don't like racing doesn't mean you have to shit on it. How about Mick just keeps his f**king mouth shut about threads that he doesn't know shit about and quits being a dick.
You can say I'm not being constructive with this post all you want but was Mick's first post constuctive? No he's been on one group ride of this fashion in his 100 years of being high on this planet but he still needs to throw his two cents in because he hates racing and people in spandex.
"And (not to put words, but) he has consciously chosen not to be part of the "sport" culture that has prevented cycling from being accepted as part of everyday life in American society. "
Why is cycling accepted as part of everyday life in Europe when cycling is one of the biggest sports in Europe? I guess cycling as a sport is really ruining bikes though.
@stefb PMTCC has special the oval "rides" where people are learning to follow each other at 17-21 at approximately 1 foot and smoothly change and accelerate/decelerate. I'll let you know when we are going to do it again.
Another thing I'd like to stress -- whoever is leading the pack at the moment is responsible for clear communication: holes, acceleration/deceleration, gravel, car. door, etc, any change in course -- all this should be communicated to followers and it should be passed down th line.
Ooooh, testy.
I said nothing about not liking racing. I like racing. But any 40 yo beginner who buys a Trek Madone is not "racing". I think that would agree with the linked authors point.
Also, there is a huge disconnect even in holy Europe between spectator sports such as the TDF and everyday cycling. Watch the TDF. The "fans" who chase the TDF riders on foot up the cols are just douchebags, no?
@tetris_draftsman Jeez, easy man. Wouldn't it be better if people like you just start to teach other people? I was car free for first 35 years of my life. And used bicycle a lot. I had my three friends in bicycling while I was in t&f (age 11). I've learned a lot from those three friends.
BTW FoC are terrible in the sense of riding as a group. Even Tuesday's and Wednesday's rides have a huge room to improve.
I think we should argue about whether to call them group rides or bunch rides.
I SAY BUNCH.
@Mikhail what makes you think Tetris doesn't teach people?
So much anger. I think a nice ride in the woods is in order so everyone can chill out.
Science knows I've had my issues with mick but the attack on him was way over the line for what he actually said. He was actually having a constructive conversation with Chris that may have helped others like him with little experience in racing understand the points the article was making better until you shit all over him.
I think that tetris_draftsman forgot "- To take your cycling shorts off immediately after a ride."
Crabby much? Maybe I missed some interaction elsewhere, but your comment came off as a little too personal. It's only the internet!
@Chris Nothing. And I am not saying that he does not teach people. 
I am just trying to say that we can share knowledge and explain why it's important.
I'm sorry I thought this was the board where ALL people discussed riding ALL types of bikes in pgh. Not just a message board for a few people to discuss riding bikes real slow in an unorganized "bunch". My mistake will quit posting here. To quote Nick D. ,the person who started flock rides if I'm not mistaken, "I remember why I quit posting here". It's funny when people I know IRL to be good people quit posting here wonder why?
Apparently yes everyone has missed previous threads with Mick where he bashes anything that has to do with people racing. Everyone also missed my attempts to show Mick through PM's that just because people race doesn't mean they don't commute and ride other types of bikes and that were not all that different.
One last thing you may have not said you hate racing but you did say "the "sport" culture that has prevented cycling from being accepted as part of everyday life in American society. " Which shows that you obviously have some contempt for racing at the very least. Just because some douchebags chase riders up hills in the TDF doesn't mean cycling isn't excepted as a normal way to get around in Europe and I find it hard to believe some of that hasn't happened as a result of people watching racing.
I think that you are seriously reading into things....
I can only speak for myself, but a bike is a bike and I'm just happy that you are happy, however you choose to ride!
Jesus, why so sensitive about this "racing"? The posted article had nothing to do with racing, right? It was about good group behavior and etiquette on a casual ride, and about specifically NOT displaying cat 6 racer behavior on a ride. I have no interest in going on any ride that refers to itself as a "peloton", some people do and that's awesome. For those people this is an extremely valuable article and should be taken to heart.
Regarding "all types of people discussing all types of bikes", yes, that is what is going on. IIRC it was TD who threw the first and only "keep your f*cking mouth shut". Hardly conducive to rational discussion.
Also, what is with the trend of people taking their ball and running home when mildy challenged in a normal public discussion? Oi.
Anyway, sorry mayhew.
Actually my main problem with this board is the fact that, Edmonds, StefB, Cburch, Mick, and I'm sure some others can say whatever they want but if you aren't in that group you get comments such as:
"(Ok, for effect, imagine me grinding teeth and now making the sound that Marge makes when Homer screws up) As far as riding cred goes, Mick has been car free since before most cycling newts were conceived. So as far as I'm concerned he can say what he wants. And (not to put words, but) he has consciously chosen not to be part of the "sport" culture that has prevented cycling from being accepted as part of everyday life in American society. Apologies if I am being combative, but Mick is kind of (and hopefully I'm not being presumptive) the real deal."
Mick can say what he wants despite the fact that he himself pointed out:
"Hmmm ...
I tried doing a group ride once back last century. Not really my thing.
Has there really been a huge change? I'm guessing they are bigger with more people trying it out. You're right I was kinda projecting there cause I don't know much about group rides."
So I will leave this board to people posting shit they don't know about admittedly.
tetris, I'm sure you've heard the saying "opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one." Shrug it off. It's not worth being frustrated over.
FWIW, I know a few cyclists that ONLY got into b/c of the sport culture, but now commute too... so that criticism doesn't hold any water anyhow.
i dunno, i go out, i ride my bike, i have fun doing it.
having been on a few group rides over the summer, i know im not the fastest, also know im not the slowest, but since everyone is going to the same place, the arrival order doesn't matter to much for me.
You're just a dreamer pbeaver.
But i really appreciate how this article finds the truth about group ride (any kind of group rides): If you're gonna ride as a group, the first step is to actually ride as a group, not a bucket of individuals.
I could definitely stand to learn many of the things in this article. Even on slow rides, I'm the first to yell "stopping" as some sort of ex post facto indication that I've stopped. Must be all those years of riding horses--they won't run into each other even if their riders make a bone-headed move.
Amusing Thread.
As a group rider leader, here's my 2¢...
My ride attracts 30-40 riders every week, all types of riders; fast, spandex-wearing speedsters; medium-paced, stick-together types; and new-to-group-ride-types who have no idea what to expect.
In my opinion, we all have fun respecting each other's ride styles. Fast people wanna ride out front and race through the route - that's fun. Slower people are not interested in pushing their ride speed, they want to socialize - that's fun too.
I ride a fitness/comfort bike with a rack and carry bag - kind of an anomaly for the group. I feel great that I get along with all types of riders. To me, we're all having fun, our own way. There's no pressure on slower riders to be speedsters, or vice-versa. It's great that all of the riders in my group get along, regardless of their individual preferences.
Yeah, I'm the leader, but I have no desire to tell everyone else how they should ride. I can't imagine what would happen if I attempted to keep everyone together as a group. That would reduce the size of the group down to the few who agree with the speed I care for. I like a big group of mixed riders and styles.
The article writer suggests that ride leaders have an obligation to teach riders the ropes. I have very little experience as a rider myself - I've only been riding for 5 years - so there's really not much I can teach others about ride skills. Get on your bike, pedal, be responsible, have fun. If you're new, pay attention to others, emulate the riders that fit the style you like.
So, okay, that was more than 2¢.
And just a reminder to Mick - you've been on at least one of my rides - I recall, maybe 3 years ago.
I'll put my 2c in, too. JSYK, where I'm coming from is to get people out of cars and onto bikes, en masse. I don't race, my road riding is 100% solo, I rarely ride in the woods, and I'm uncomfortably close to geezerdom.
The first step is getting people on a bike and learning how to ride it at all. We've had several threads recently with adults just learning how to steer and brake. We invite them on Flock rides to help get them used to riding on the street at all.
Sure it would be great for them to figure out the finer points of riding in a group. That's not Flock's point. We're trying to help people learn how to get from A to B without a car key. Maybe after these people get a couple hundred miles under them, they can start to focus on the finer points of being near other cyclists. It's important to know how to ride in a group, but Flock is not that kind of a group. I think it's more important to focus at first on the finer points of being near other things that are not bicycles.
anyone willing to do a once-a-month 'training' ride.
maybe at the cycling oval in highland park, where people who want to learn can show up?
learn pace lines, dual pace lines, etiquette, signals, and just get used to riding a gnat's eye lash from the person in front of them.
People can't learn if they are not given a chance.
@tetris_draftsman C'mmon. Racing is fan. And people who I know as racers also commuters. If someone don't agree with you it's not a good reason to stop posting. If Chris or you can teach us how to ride in groups I would gladly join those rides.
@Been_there_done_that I like it. I'll go.
As I mentioned above, I may try to lead some group rides, like those discussed in the article above, before too long. I'd probably start in the Waterfront, since it's a central location for many riders, and head south into the Mon Valley. The trail from Homestead to McKeesport has created easy, safe access to a lot of good riding, and the roads allow a lot of opportunities to really learn how to ride in a rotating pace line and handle a bike comfortably in a pack. I imagine the ride would be less intense than the Sunday PMVC rides, but depending on who shows up, perhaps faster than what I understand the Major Taylor rides to be. Distance would be anywhere from 45 to 115 miles, again depending on who shows up. Unlike the Neighborhood Ride, there will be no fully-stocked food stops, but it would still be a good ride. It sounds like Stef and Mikhail are interested, and I can always round up some of my cronies. Who else is in?
I am in as long as we do make periodic stops for food, either bought or brought. I don't do well not eating regularly. I am also fine riding in the cold. I assume I should bring a geared bike with a freewheel?
I'm usually up for some Mon Valley riding.
I'm going to agree with Mick in that the author sounds kind of like a crank. Things he took issue with:
- expensive bikes
- middle-aged people with expensive bikes
- "trendy bikes"
- new bikes for new cyclists
- triathletes
- regrouping at stop signs
- people moving around on a group ride
- people riding close to friends while simultaneously remembering why he always ride with only a few friends
- lack of clearly defined leadership
- lack of ladder climbing aspirations
- inelegant cyclists
- ungraceful cyclists
- non-fluid pedaling
- middle/large rings
etc
"Every so often, I’ll ride a recreational group ride. [...] The magic ends by mile 10. The group will surge, gap, and separate, only to regroup at every stop sign. I’ll hear fifteen repeated screams of “HOLE!” for every minor road imperfection"
It sounds like he IS talking about something like Flock, but then expecting it to be like a ride in the TdF, and then being annoyed that his expectations weren't met
Maybe he'd find a better group ride if he sought out a group that was suited to his needs.
Now to the road racers out there, if that kind of group riding has also declined, okay, but the author didn't really seem to distinguish between the two
Instead, to kind of use his own analogy, it seems like he's going to a public swimming pool with people just messing around/having a good time and then complaining about how pools used to be and how everybody back in his day had a much better stroke
It seems like any other privileged niche group being upset when there's a wide cultural adoption of said niche and essentially, how all the new people lack discipline, rigidity, respect for the old original people, and are basically posers
See surfing, skate boarding, etc
Jacob, I am in. I am not the fastest guy but I always glad to learn new stuff. And I need to lose weight.
Alright, then. I will start a new thread for group rides as soon as the weather and my schedule cooperate to make them possible. And yes, Stef, I would bring a geared bike with a freewheel as we will hit some high speeds, and climb some steep hills, from time to time.
I would definitely be interested in this!
Count me in, too.
