BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting the link. I've been riding on and off for over 20 years.

When I first started riding I refused to go to certain local bike shops. They would just ignore me and when I was with my husband they would always talk to him, even though I was the one buying the bike. There was not much in the way of clothing or accessories for women.

I think things have changed a lot. Now most shops have some women's clothing and gear, but I still don’t' feel comfortable going into most bike shops. I don't think I've ever seen a female clerk in one. They still feel like a men’s club.

I still avoid group rides. They are usually male dominated and the men seem very competitive. I loved the Girls and Gears ride this summer. There were all levels of riders and even though I was mostly in the middle of the pack I never felt intimidated.

Women have different needs in a bike. My husband is my biggest advocate. He customized my brake controls to fit my smaller reach; he added gears to help me on steep hills. He found a seat that worked for a woman’s body. Those are the kinds of things bike shops should be doing to attract women.

I know what I want in a bike, but I don't really care to memorize the makes and models of every component.

The article mentions image consciousness as one reason many women don't bike. I think this is true. I am not fat, but I'm no longer a size 6 and finding good quality shirts and shorts that fit is hard. Who is designing these clothes?

Just look at who posts on this board. I see many more men than women.

I now have a bike I love. It fits me like a glove and its beautiful thing to look at. What more could any biker want.

I think Elly has it exactly right. She could easily be in the Pittsburgh environment. My only observation is that my experience with local bike shops is not as negative. Most clerks in most stores are eager to serve me, although that may be based on low competition -- I am often the only customer in the store at the time. Elly might also have more detailed needs. My bike components are not customized. I don't ask detailed questions about gear ratios and such. So, mostly I am an in and out customer.

My local experience and our regional bike counts show about a 65/35 men to women cycling ratio at most count locations in Pittsburgh. That's for mostly on road riders, most of whom are commuters. Trail ridership may be different. When I ride, or do counts, I still can't shake the feeling that I should be able to put a name to every female rider I see on the road. I know that is crazy, but I see so few of them it seems like I should know most of them, at least. I have no such feeling about the male riders I see/count.

Yes, there are a lot of women who feel they have to be cautious in their selection of routes, time of travel, etc. We carry our car keys in our hands when walking at night or through a dark parking garage for similar reasons. It's not fear, exactly, just an understanding that we might be vulnerable. That's how I feel when riding the Chateau Trail. Not that anything bad will happen to me, but the feeling that it is not a place I would want to be - alone- if anything were to happen. It's something we are trained to do from about the age of 12. It has little or nothing to do with cycling, per se.

As for bicycle specific clothing, etc., don't get me started. If you are larger than a size 8, or over the age of 30, you best stock up anytime you can. We want less fit through the body, slightly longer shorts/skorts, and better options for real world colors and designs. Sizing is also a challenge. I don't think that is the only issue with image conciousness, however. There's also the "helmet hair" issue, the "I don't want to be wearing this when I GET there" issue, etc. The image concious element is often oriented at the DESTINATION not at the ride itself.

Scott, I am at your disposal if you want to look more deeply at this issue in the Pittsburgh setting.

Good article, especially telling coming from P'land of all places.

From the point of view of a man, it seems like Trek of Pgh has been pretty good. They have had a whole series of women in their shops who really know their shiz, they're not "pinking it up".

It also seems like Pgh in general has pretty good female ridership. If the community can continue to push biking more in the direction of a general everyday activity and less as "sport", that will improve things.

And I will be the first to admit that I am perhaps not the most sensitive or perceptive individual on the planet, so I welcome having my female comrades point out to me what I/we might do to be part of the solution.

Oh, and re: clothing, as a middle aged dude, I don't know who most bike clothing manufacturers DO cut their stuff for, little euro pencilnecks, apparently.

@Scott, thanks for posting this, an eye opening read.

For informational purposes I wanted to mention Beth at Big Bang Bikes. She's been there quite a while and is a cyclist herself.

first, i would say her closing paragraphs are right on. I have been hesitant to start this discussion because I don't want to alienate people and calling people out, as a woman, seems to lead to folks just brushing you off or getting mad.

and in fact I was talking to someone the other day about the bike pgh board and women...and we could only think of two women, one of which we weren't sure was going to remain on it. I know that when Lou gave a Commuting 101 workshop at Bioneers he told me later that it was mostly women and he hoped that he could answer their questions, since commuting and cycling in general is a different experience for us, especially if you have to dress professionally for anything at the end of your ride. I personally commuted for a year without ever wearing a skirt on a bike, and when I did, you can believe I got comments from pedestrians and drivers that fortunately a year's worth of commuting experience gave me the thick skin to ignore.

As for bike shops, apparell, etc... I have discussed that with men and women over and over. I have two shops I pointedly don't go to thanks to going with a guy, being ignored, having my questions dismissed, and then having the male sales clerk hand my companion a fat bike catalog with some ads featuring females who weren't riding and tell him it was great eye candy and toilet reading. Thanks pal. I'll go buy my bike somewhere else (and I got a sweet bike from a great guy on this message board after that!)

I feel like the only times in general when we think of women riding we think of pictures like the ones on the Girls on Bikes blog, or even if they are showing off their calf muscles they are still pictured in a magazine pin-up style in a skirt, not climbing hills or dodging potholes.

And I agree---when I ride I feel like when I see another woman I probably know her or met her... but I don't think that is totally true here.

Most of the men I associate with in the Pittsburgh Bike Community though, I really like and can't recall any even subtle sexism from them. They encourage me to ride crazy races, in the oval, want to lend me their smaller framed mountain bikes, show me step by step how to change cables and housing (which I hate to do) or do anything to my bike, and basically have been awesome. I sincerely thank Bike Pittsburgh as an organization for giving me a space to meet other awesome cyclists of all genders.

But as with most things, having more women involved in planning, workshops, rides, and in bike shops would be awesome and encouraging for new riders in general--male or female.

I think you already know I am at your disposal if you ever want to look more deeply at this too, or just have a larger women and biking forum or discussion in person at some point.

"...hesitant to start this discussion because I don't want to alienate people..." Uh, just like a woman (joking, JOKING!)

Really, bring these issues to light, that's the only way. If some people can't take it, then they're, uh, babies.

Can you reveal what shop(s) it was that treated you like that? Or other experience? I would think most shop owners would want to know about someone pissing off 51% of their potential customers.

I would rather just say that I love going to Trek. I have been in the bike shop argument before, and often am told "it isnt like that anymore". Sure it's been two years. But still....

Also one comment on that blog post lead me to this interview with Katie Compton, top female cyclocross racer, and check out the disparity in prize winnings between male and female races:

Q: I’ve heard about protests from female riders asking for increased fairness in payouts at World Cup races, but when comparing European WC ‘cross races with say, a USGP race in America, is there a big difference in payouts between each one or are they both about the same in relation to what the Elite Men are getting at each respective event?

A: They call it travel money now, and yes, we do get money, but not as much as the men.

that seems to be something that's a problem in all sports, not just cycling, which is a reflection of society at large. It's difficult to really grasp or comment on it because so few of us are elite racers.

as far as organizing rides goes, my experience is with bikefest, and although i don't have any numbers, my gut says that there have been more rides and events that women have stepped up and organized than that were organized by men.

as far as the messageboard, i have no clue why so few women use it. of course there is some macho stuff, but this board is mild compared to, well the rest of teh internets.

as far as organizing rides goes, my experience is with bikefest, and although i don't have any numbers, my gut says that there have been more rides and events that women have stepped up and organized than that were organized by men.

Well bikefest is a girl, after all.

Really though, interesting about the bike shops. All I can say from my position is, that sucks.

Crit mass always seemed to be well balanced, m/f. Or maybe that's just my perception, it may be just more balanced.

Would it be over-generalization (or maybe I'm just slow) to say that women are more likely to do group rides, especially when speed is removed, and guys are more likely to ride solo?

So by extension there needs to be more slow casual fun rides planned to get more newbies out? Weekend fun rides to scout common commuting routes so people could try them out with a group might be cool, go from a different neighborhood each weekend. People on the board probably take a lot of this for granted, but if the average newbie could just say they rode their bike from their house to town and back, that would be pretty huge. Coffee/cocktails after, of course.

I think this is exactly right: Would it be over-generalization (or maybe I'm just slow) to say that women are more likely to do group rides, especially when speed is removed, and guys are more likely to ride solo?

So by extension there needs to be more slow casual fun rides planned to get more newbies out? Weekend fun rides to scout common commuting routes so people could try them out with a group might be cool, go from a different neighborhood each weekend. People on the board probably take a lot of this for granted, but if the average newbie could just say they rode their bike from their house to town and back, that would be pretty huge. Coffee/cocktails after, of course.

What, I'm slow? I'm sensitive. Ha,ha!

Actually, I don't think it's really about group rides or solo rides. Sure, activities help build a community, but it's INFRASTRUCTURE and increased SAFETY that will ultimately get more women riding.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/in-urban-cycling-a-gender-gap-persists/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=getting-more-bicyclists-on-the-road

http://www.bikebeauty.org/english/

I'll second (or third) the bits on Trek, at least the mechanic in the back. He didn't seem bothered that I had a low-tech, bright sea foam green bike, and did exactly what I wanted done with the handlebars and seat. There are two other shops in the city that have been good to me as well: Iron City and Thick Bikes. In contrast, I did not feel like I was taken seriously in some Columbus bike shops when I went looking for my current bike. Perhaps it was because I wanted a hybrid mountain/upright thingie, but I don't think that should matter. Often, I feel like I have to walk into a bike shop with all the good components memorized and want some sort of expensive road bike in order to get good service for bike purchases.

However, scott's points about safety and infrastructure really do it for me, especially trying to get in and out of Oakland from East Lib. I don't ride a fast bike and I don't ride fast, so I often feel like car bait.

Scott, chicken or egg, I understand your point, and I'm going to blab before I delve into those links, but if you take someone out on a ride with a bunch of folks, right now, with or without the infrastructure, they're hooked, and you've got one more voice who wants to ride more, and wants to be safer, and wants the infrastructure, and you've got one more advocate for all that stuff, and the infrastructure gets dragged along. Leapfrog, to some degree.

i think you're arguing about apples and oranges here. they are both necessary.

i've talked to people, both male and female, who said that their first critical mass ride was the first time that they ever left Oakland on a bike. They felt like they couldn't do it or they feared the unknown. i'm not saying that's a quality of women, just that group rides often help people that are feeling insecure about leaving their comfort zones. i'm not sure some of these people would have left oakland even if there was a bike lane.

100% erok

To some extent "chicken and the egg" is true, since you need a few people biking to get the ball rolling. But lack of infrastructure can get established cyclists back behind the wheel.

I moved here with my SO a little over a year ago. Before we moved she felt comfortable enough biking on the roads (bike lanes/paths) to use it as her main form of transportation (full disclosure: we previously lived in one of the most bike-friendly cities in the US). She had a 6 mile round-trip to work, biked a few more miles to go out to lunch, went to the grocery store and hauled stuff home, biked to movies/bar/food on the weekend, etc.

In Pittsburgh I can't convince her to ride anywhere. The aggressive attitudes of drivers and rampant traffic violations can intimidate even the bravest cyclist. That, combined with the accidents we have experienced, seen, and heard of makes biking for her a far second to a car.

Bike lanes and infrastructure help a ton, but gaps in this infrastructure still present a problem. When you need to bike on some narrow 25-mph road (where all the traffic is flowing at a steady 45-mph) to get to the bike path, it presents a serious obstacle for a novice cyclist.

I see two solutions, fill in the infrastructure gaps (which bike-pgh is doing bit by bit) or step up the enforcement. There needs to be some incentive for drivers to not drive like crazed maniacs. Us asking them to be nice people doesn't seem like it will work.

Group rides = mobile bike infrastructure.

dwillen, good point. You've just shown me a huge flaw in my mental construct, in that, mine relies on a person developing an enthusiast or "passionate" mindset, as opposed to just having the bike being the most simple and practical (and safe) means to do what you need to do.

O.k. That said, f**king drivers.

As an aside (after watching the video on the "Media Coverage" thread), the Atlanta Bicycle Coalition appears to be entirely staffed by women. And the coalition looks pretty impressive. Rock on ATL.

I have so much to say about this but I'm having trouble getting my thoughts together. A few things though...

I don't encounter a ton of sexism within PGH's bike community. Sexism from the outside world is a different story. Certainly, I was intimidated when I went to my first bikey events/hangouts, but that's pretty normal when you're entering established communities, and I don't think being intimidated had any more to do with gender than usual.

Some women may just want to start commuting by bike and may not have interest in entering a community, so established sexism in general can make that intimidating and hard. I think seeing other women riding and holding leadership/organizing roles is really, really important. It would make other women feel justified in what they are doing, 'cause other cool ladies are doing it too. I'll talk about that more in a paragraph or two.

Speaking of bikey events, It's really nice that in general, people flyer in a way that is NOT sexist, like, there aren't drawings of babes on most allycat flyers, and events are marketed appropriately to both sexes. I like that when events which may seem kinda macho and jockey, like the Goldsprints, include photos of women racing and having a good time in the advertisements. I'm also glad that our advocacy organization doesn't post pictures of sundresses on bikes and calls them a "harbingers of spring." Anyway, good, non-sexist event marketing is important in getting women to understand that the PGH bike community is not a boys club and make them feel encouraged to come to events. I think Pittsburgh does it well.

Sexism in bike shops.. hmph. Trek gets the award for being the most welcoming. I can deal pretty well with people thinking I don't know what I'm talking about, but at times it's been a serious struggle with people at certain bike shops to get them to be friendly and helpful. Then again, it's such a Pittsburgh thing to walk into a shop or bar and feel like you're bothering them by giving them your money.

I help run Free Ride's women's/trans night, where I spend time talking to ladies about how to commute and how to diagnose problems on their bikes. Many of these people are coming to women's night for the first time and are visibly intimidated by being in a bike shop where, presumably, a couple of seasoned urban commuting ladies staffing the shop might judge them. We try to break down that wall really quickly for them, since those of us staffing the shop know exactly what's it's like to be on the other side. Once working on a bike, I try to make it really clear to the person that I DON'T know everything about the problem and that we're going to try to figure it out together. I think people across genders really respond to collaborative learning, women especially if they are doing it with other women. I love women's night because it's a time when I can watch people change, and watch them start thinking about mechanics (and commuting) differently. I learn a lot from it, too. I've seen the same women come back to FR with bikes, saying that they rode there and having been riding frequently, which is awesome. So, I guess what I'm saying that is it's important to have ladies helping ladies, have strong lady-role-models in the community, show other woman that commuting is fun, can be safe, and you can look and feel good doing it. It's important that men and people who identify differently find experiences like this too. We all need to be aware at how we're presenting ourselves whether we're teaching mechanics, explaining how to commute, inviting someone to a bikey events.. etc.. I'm starting to sound corny so I shall stop. You get what I'm saying.

I'm a big advocate about better infrastructure, but I'm not going to write to much about that because this topic is more about sexism (not that street-planning doesn't have it's own sexist, male-centric issues). But better infrastructure, with safer, well-planned routes at the top of that list will help us all a lot, and get tons more people on bicycles.

Certainly, I was intimidated when I went to my first bikey events/hangouts, but that's pretty normal when you're entering established communities, and I don't think being intimidated had any more to do with gender than usual.

Then again, it's such a Pittsburgh thing to walk into a shop or bar and feel like you're bothering them by giving them your money.

Good points. A feeling of intimidation in a bike shop or at a bike event isn't necessarily gender specific for a bike newb.

Having said that I believe the posters who have related feeling left out of/ignored in bike shop interactions when with a guy: I've observed that myself and it's annoying. Try tagging along to a mechanic with a female friend who's trying to get HER car fixed: it's silly.

I find it strange how many people, male or female, seem intimated by going to Kraynick's, even after I've told them about what a great shop it is and encouraged them to go. Invariably, those that end up making the trip are instant converts and want to do more of their own bike work.

I understand the feeling some people have about Kraynick's. Jerry is a great person, and a lynch pin in the cycling scene here, but people, of whatever gender, can be intimidated by him, particularly if they go in there to find someone else to do the work they don't care to do themselves.

I love the DIY attitude that is a part of most bike scenes, but it can be at the expense of alienating those people with out skill or interest in fixing things themselves.

On a seprate , yet related topic, did anyone happen to look at the demographics of the Bike-pgh members meeting a few months ago?

Well, Kraynick's is intimidating at first for a few reasons. Kraynick is no bullshit, and until you prove to him that you have a good attitude (note the sign about attitude hanging over the desk) and that you are able to ask a question that makes sense, he's pretty gruff and I don't really blame him for it. Dude gets a lot of frustrating walk-ins and people who go in there acting like they know it all. Second, the shop is TINY, seemingly disorganized, and not really designed for browsing if you're a total newb. Third, there's always someone else hanging around towards the front and commenting on whatever your question is/what you're looking for. Sometimes this can be helpful, sometimes it can be intimidating for people. The whole DIY situation in the backroom can be intimidating for a newb too.

I love Kraynick's, but it took me a few visits to get used to it.

@Rachel Then again, it's such a Pittsburgh thing to walk into a shop or bar and feel like you're bothering them by giving them your money.

I think a lot of the "sexism" of the bike scene is just like that. If I was a woman and ran into some of the macho-fests, I might conclude it's sexist, but everyone has to face that stuff, sometimes.

Every scene has a little of that.

When hung out with an alternative medicine crowd, I often ran into this soft-voiced, zen-yoga-style "I've-transcended-competition-better-than-you-have," attitude.

("Yeah. And your turquoise belt is nicer, too!")

Mick

Thanks everyone for participating in this discussion.

On a seprate , yet related topic, did anyone happen to look at the demographics of the Bike-pgh members meeting a few months ago?

Eric to answer your question. of the people that i was able to keep track of, signed in, etc. from what i can tell, the breakdown was approx 66% male, 34% female

btw, which is off from our membership actuals, which is closer to 50/50 (but weighted to the male side)

Pretty darn close to swalfoort's counts, then.

The grouchy bike shop guy is sort of an archetype, they're all over the place. Has everyone seen the movie "2 seconds" (French)? Really good. I have the DVD, if interest, we could have a BikePgh movie night, once the office gets moved.

@edmonds omg bikepgh movie night I'm there.

that idea has been floated. the new space would be great for it

"2 seconds" is pretty good. Ken K. did a review of it in Urban Velo a while ago.

I also have access to a digital projector I can borrow for the occasional use.

There's a nice photo of a female bike commuter in shenley park in today's post gazette local section(she's definitely NOT in a sun-dress).

She's NOT wearing a sun-dress? Can they publish that sort of thing in a public newspaper?

Let me preface these comments by stating that I understand that most sexism is so deeply ingrained in our culture that a lot of it happens sub-consciously and alot of the time the perpetrator has no idea that they are being sexist. But I also believe that SOME of the time when the lines get blurry that simple human nature is to blame for a perceived slight. Some of the time being the operative word.

When I go to bike shops with my girlfriend and I initiate the conversation with a mech./sales person, they pretty much talk to me and ignore her. But when I hang back and browse while she initiates, they ignore me. I feel that a lot of men who go to the shop with their s.o. can be partly responsible for unfair treatment by asserting themselves as the 'more knowledgeable' rider.

Speaking on Kraynicks, I think that man is one of the least sexist people I have ever met. Yeah Gerry!

Whatever, thats my two cents, this thread is awesome because we all need to constantly evaluate our own actions and keep talking about this issue until it is squashed.

"Thats exactly why, privileged f*cks like me

Should feel obliged, to whine and kick and scream

till everyone has everything they need"

Whoa, where's that quote from? I like it. Beats the hell out of "Be the change you want to see..."

I agree, great thread.

Now, what are we going to do about the people of color? Anyone, anyone...?

A great ole' punk band

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propagandhi

uh, I didn't think that was a great editorial at all. She whines. She cites a study. She copies and pastes some quotes, which lead to more whining. Wah wah! Male dominated scenes in a patriarchal society, oh no! wah! Sigh. Yawn. She sounds naive or perhaps just young and yeah, like a bit of a pussy.

All unnecessary insults aside, I've never had problems in pgh because of my sex. Then again, I don't vibe that way. What I mean is, I don't play the "victim of sexism game." I'm a strong woman and I know it. That's how I vibe.

I probably get more crap for being older than for being female. Following this thought though, maybe it's different for younger women who are still trying to make peace/break free of their indoctrination into the male world. It does take some undoing, you know. At the same time, we need to embrace our fine brothers, not alienate them. What this means is that we have to address the larger issue by addressing our most intimate relationships with men, be it sexual or not. It's in our homes, whatever kind of living environment you're in, that the real struggle for equality begins - with our lovers, our sons, our friends, our families.

I don't want to be treated differently based on my sex, but rather based on myself as a whole person. Singling women out reinforces differences, reinforces the male domination vibe. Like, well, we'll change this for you since you guys are chicks. That's the antithesis of empowerment.

guys still need to take responsibility as well. calling out myself or other dudes on sexist stuff doesn't "reinforce the male domination vibe" in my mind.

and to be quite honest, it's an important component of it, especially in a scene like a bike scene where women are straight up outnumbered.

Erok,

I'll clarify since your comment doesn't relate to my thought as I thought it...or wrote it? By singling women out I mean, making special rules, aka exceptions to the "norm," due to the fact that an individual is female.

The norm, then, is male domination.

The exception to the norm is granted by the men.

We are then a step further away from equality because guys are still making the rules for the women or, dominating.

Another way to try to have my thought understood:

Let's use racism as a parallel. Special race rules can reinforce the idea that certain races aren't equal but are tolerated by the dominant race.

Does that communicate the thought better? Or maybe I've misunderstood you.

Let's use racism as a parallel. Special race rules can reinforce the idea that certain races aren't equal but are tolerated by the dominant race.

I know what you are sayin, but how can that work unless everyone is on an equal playing field?

I kind of agree in day to day interaction but on a broader socio-economic scale it's not a reality. When you get the shaft from birth due to a different skin color or genitalia, what then? You might need a helping hand to get on an equal playing field in the first place.

I'll shut up now. The world is a pretty messed up place in a lot of regards.

I know that was Erok, but I had to chime in on it.

it does clarify a bit

If it makes anyone feel better, when I walk into most bike shops I get talked down to or ignored and I am just about the most average white male ever.

It seems like what you may be saying is like, when a car driver believes they are allowing a bike to use a little piece of THEIR road - no the bike is entitled to a piece of road equally. Am I getting it?

But if as a society we enforce equal rights in the real world, if that attitude still exists in someone's head, does it matter? Given that we can't get into everyone's head and change attitudes, isn't the only alternative to reinforce these rights externally and repetitively by saying "no, this is the way it is."

Also, I don't feel that the male dominant attitude is an all or nothing, black/white condition, nor do I think it is in any way the norm anymore. However, I think we have to realize that there are bitter hard core whack jobs who will not relinquish that belief until death.

Laurie, you said, "Like, well, we'll change this for you since you guys are chicks. That's the antithesis of empowerment."

Yes, while in many cases it takes a straight white male in a powerful position to politically and socially validate changes for women and people of color, you cannot deny the importance of women's, civil rights, and other social justice movements. Women would not have been granted the right to vote without their own grassroots organizing first, for example. The way you wrote your response makes it sound like it's men who initiate the discussion of differences and are the ones who initially desire the particular change or "special rule." From what I know, with some exceptions, it's marginalized people's (and often, their privileged allies') hard work that puts pressure on people in power to make the change. I find that to be empowering.

The fact that we're having these discussions with each other and recognizing that for most people sexism is a very real thing, is good. It's better to all be aware of this stuff than deny that differences exist in the public realm. I completely agree that's it's important to embrace men in our lives, and keep change close to home, but it's important to do this publicly too.

I just want to chime in and say that race isn't a very robust parallel to draw to sex, since there actually are significant differences in the way male and female bodies operate, and how their psyches typically work (some feminist writers espouse this difference as why women would be better in political power than men - can't say I'd take it that far, but there are inherent differences). None of these differences relate to the discussion of sexism in the bike scene in particular, but more generally, I don't think it's a good parallel to draw. Men can't bear children. Just sayin.

In contrast, other than some minor things (predisposition to some genetic diseases, lactose intolerance), there are no major inherent (non-learned) differences between people of different ethnicities/races.

What are "special race rules"?

i dont think anyone in this thread was asking for any "special changes" for women at all. so i am confused as to why it has taken this direction.

touché.

+1 caitlin.

It's very interesting to read all this. I'm a new female rider (don't think I can call myself full fledge 'biker' just yet), and have been commuting to work for over half a year now and using my bike as my main form of transportation. At first it was intimidating because while other commuting bike-guys I know are generally friendly and quite helpful when I have bike-related questions, they still maintain a 'boys club' attitude about it. I cannot tell for sure if this is the same among the pgh bike community at-large, but I have to say that while I've checked this boards for awhile, it is mostly male-oriented / initiated discussion, which has kept me from wanting to participate more in here and in the overall scene.

Regardless of this, or -outside- this scene, I've been very impressed by the number of women I've seen cycling and commuting on my travels. At work there were 6 women (including me) who biked to work this last year, with the numbers receeding due to the winter season. Of the 6, only I and one other have been constant on it. And on the streets, I have seen probably a fifty-fifty m/f ratio, with 2-ladies who seem to be 50yrs old taking the cake as the most senior-female commuters I've witnesseed. Most of the people I've seen riding have been rather friendly, and have even given me advice about riding-etiquette and what-not. Traffic wise, so far drivers haven't been that bad with me although I have been indeed been flipped-off once, and yelled at to "get off the road" a couple of times.

I'll admit that I'm scared of going to a bike shop for fear of being laughed-at..... The only place I've ventured for bike-mechanic help is REI since it seems more of a 'general' store, but even there sometimes I've felt slightly dissmissed. For the same reason, most of my biking gear has been bought on-line (all money that could have gone to local shops), as well as some of my bike education. Maybe I just need to bite the bullet & go to a store and it will be ok, but for the same reason that I feel 'dismissed' at my eagerness for cycling by the general male-population, I want to be as self-reliant as possible as a woman.

Ultimately, I think that from the women I know who commute and who ride their bikes regularly, most of them have less of a competitive edge towards cycling than men. That DOES not mean that they are less interested on it or are less passionate about it, but rather; that they are more organic about biking as a sustainable and healthy lifestyle choice. Granted, physically men are bigger & faster than women when it comes down to riding, but whatever -that doesn't diminish the pleasure it gives us/me to ride my bike everyday.

To finalize and clarify, I don't want to be treated differently or talked-down when it comes down to cycling or bikes JUST because I'm a woman or because I'm young -but rather, to be treated as an equal, and as someone who shares with passion the enpowerment and FUN that riding a bike gives.

well said. that made me realize that there's a parallel impression to going into some record shops and why many people would just as soon by a record online rather than face a record store employee.

Bikeygirl, thanks for your post.. a lot of what you said reminded me of things that have gone through my head at times. My original post, which claimed that the bike scene is mostly non-sexist, comes from the position of someone who is pretty socially involved with the bike community, or at least a chunk of it. I think that definitely effects how I perceive sexism in the community.

I must say though, a lot of the sexist vibes I've gotten have been in bike-shop situations, when buying something at a bike store or when staffing at Free Ride.

Bg, awesome job on the commuting. Sounds like your workplace has some pretty good people, also.

If I had to propose a definition of a biker, I would say that, the second time someone gets on a bike, they're a biker, so take that for what it's worth.

This thread has really caused me to think and self analyze, the only concluion that I have come to is that I will never reach a conclusion, I hope I will continue to investigate my relationships with people until I bite it. But where I am right now;

You have obviously started riding only for yourself, not to be a part of something, or to impress anyone. Your motivation seems to be completely internal, that is the most outstanding reason to do this that there can be, in my opinion. What kind of bike you ride, what you wear, whether or not you know how to fine tune and index shifter, is all just external icing, all that comes with experience, it's not some high-priest secret knowledge that some people would like to make you believe. I've been riding for a long time, and I've spent too much time listening to (usually guys, sexist, I know) unload on me all their vast knowledge, unbeknownst to them, I know to be complete horse dookie.

All you want to do is ride a bike, that's all you need to know at any given time. If someone makes you feel intimidated or dumb, they are doing damage to biking, say the heck with them and move on.

Take it from me personally, there are people out here who want to see no-one kept from biking, or whatever it is they may want to do.

Reads pretty clumsily, so, sorry. meh. hope you get the point.

Index shifter? What is that?!?

No really---- sorry if it has taken me awhile to respond here, but I was very touched by all of your words of support, and I wanted to respond accordingly -Thank you!

Most definately, by getting to know more people within the bike scene in-town, weather male or female, one will feel more comfortable regardless of who one is. Also, I never said that I didn't feel part of the bike community -I do! I might not participate in it as a, let's say, a 'known member', but I think that by biking everyday, giving 'high-fives' and 'hello's' to fellow commuters I run into in the streets, by daring to ride along fast-moving cars along Liberty Avenue while commuting to downtown everyday, I'm being part of the community and supporting it. I also admit that by having people actively involved in public advocacy and law-making activities (like what Bike-Pgh does), is important and detrimental to keep the cycling community safe & growing. But as in anything, one needs people in all areas to keep the momentum going.

While I do ride for myself, and try to improve within my sphere of training, I have to admit that ultimately, it is abit to impress too (after being a heavy smoker for awhile, one can't help it)... but most definately, to be part of the community and Pittsburgh as a whole. I love this city! And while I already know it like the back-of-my hand, it is a whole-different perspective to see it while riding in two-wheels!

So, yeah, I guess that in retrospect, sexism doesn't really play that much of a role within the bike community -I know enough women who bike at their chosing becaue they want to and makes them happy-healthier-independent, regardless of anything. Being afraid of places and people who one doesn't know is also normal (like mythical & mysterious bike shops), and perhaps that should change, which it will probably be with time.

Ultimately, respect to anyone who can ride a bike! And even-more respect to those individuals who take it upon-themselves to keep bike-community active & growing, regardless of their sex, age, or riding skills.

@bikeygirl: Opps, didn't mean for my post to read like I didn't think you were part of the community. I was just musing on why it is that I feel the way I do. I can see now how it would be read like that!

This si an important thread.

It's important to remind men that women are participants in all this, too. and it's its to fall into offensive stuff. (Referring to someone who doesn't pedal as hard as you do with a crude name for female genitalia, for instance.)

It's important that some like Laurie speaks up every once in while and says "Sexism? No, they treat everyone like a wimpy outsider, what's so special about you?" (Laurie, I hope you're OK with that paraphrase).

You can't have a good community without soem balance that works for everyone.

Mick

(I have this Dr Jeckyll-Mr Rogers thing going...)

After my last post I went for a nice ride, and this whole issue simmered in my head for a while, something right at the center of why I posted on this thread in the first place, why would I think my opinion would be of any use to anyone?

I said "If someone makes you feel intimidated or dumb, they are doing damage to biking, say the heck with them and move on." The important part I forgot, is to speak up, if you're in a situation where you feel like you are being treated differently, say something, and if the only backup you have in that situation is a little disembodied voice in the back of your head, from an internet message board, saying "dude, this isn't right", then it helps I guess. Speak up, that's the only way this horse-shizzle is going to get changed.

I think Elly's article was right on point about a lot of things. She is certainly not "naive or perhaps just young and yeah, like a bit of a pussy", but an articulate and active advocate, organizer, cyclist, and journalist in the bike community.

Even if she were young or naive, flinging insults or calling someone a pussy is counterproductive and demeaning to everyone. I'd rather see young and naive people riding bikes and engaged and confronting issues they observe than be silenced by thinking their inexperience can't also be valuable. We can learn from everyone.

I've known Elly for years and my projects have benefited directly from her assistance and insight. We met when I was planning the first Carfree Day in DC in 2007, when there were very few resources available and Elly, on behalf of Shift to Bikes, provided invaluable support, without which Carfree Day would have likely not happened.

I wrote about this article last week (http://onenightlemonadestand.wordpress.com) and I think it is important to do everything possible to break down any barriers that stop a single person from riding bikes.

"flinging insults or calling someone a pussy is counterproductive and demeaning to everyone."

+1

Haha.... not exactly trying to resurrect this thread, but saw this today and thought I had to share!

(this is from the "Married to the Sea" comic blog)

nice... I'm new enough that this thread is new to me... I'd been wondering about what I like to call "The Boob Factor" and whether that was the reason drivers in the 'burbs have been so nice to me. I even thought about asking on here but wasn't sure how it would be received, then I realized that 1) I don't care (as long as they stay nice to me) and 2) this thread answered most of my questions. Gender is an issue if you allow it. People will be jerks if you let them, regardless the reason. Jerks (aka thoughtless idiots) can generally be played like pianos anyway, so it's not all negative.

@ejwme -glad to see you found this helpful! Welcome to the board!

(plus.... boys are silly)

(plus.... boys are silly)

Of course we are. Otherwise, we'd have given up on girls long ago, and the race would have died out.

Haha! Touche!

I will never forget the time I walked into a local bike shop that used to be in Monroeville. At the time I was overweight and just got done with chemo treatment. This was about the time Lance Armstrong was the big news with his cancer treatment, ect. He was my hero so I wanted to buy my first bike.

I went into the store and was ignored. Finally I got someones attention and was looking at road bikes. The guy was rude and told me that it was for athletic people. Arghh!!! I was so mad. I haven't been back in that bike shop since.

Uggh, that's a shame, yes, def do not take your business back to a place with someone with an attitude like that. Have you found a good shop to work with?

And how are you doing now?

I only got to Pittsburgh Pro Bikes. The guys there are awesome. Every bike I have bought came from Pro Bikes. My health is also great.

I will never forget the jerk at the other shop. I couldn't believe I got that kind of attitude for being overweight and hairless.

So what was that, like the late '90's? Are you 10 years in the clear?

I don't know what your particular type was, but my wife runs this;

http://www.youngwomensbreastcancerfoundation.com/index.html

Pro Bikes has actually provided support for them in the past.

It was in 99' and I was around 26. My particular type was ovarian. Thanks for the link. Pro Bikes is the best.

I couldn't look any more like a cyclist if I tried (tall and skinny), and I go into bike shops where the employees treat me just as poorly. This guy was probably a dick to everyone but his "pro" crowd.

In Davis, the late Steve Larsen owned a bike shop called "Wheelworks" but everyone around town called it "Wheeljerks" because the employees wouldn't look up from their magazine when you walked in, unless they knew you were the rich, leg-shaving, carbon fiber having, racing type. When I was actually in the market for a higher-end bike, and went in there (because that is what they carried) the guy told me to "go online to the cannonade site and find what you want" and he can order it. Customer service at its best!

Glad you are doing well.

when i started to ride about 4 or so years ago, i got my first hybrid bike at a shop in beaver county. i have no idea if it was a good fit or not, but i did ride the hell out of that bike. first i did pedal pittsburgh with friends, and we quit half way through cause of cold and rainy weather. i signed up for the ms150 and i overtrained, going to north park literally every day (since i lived close at the time) and putting it into the highest gear, doing 25-30 miles each time. i did the ms, the prostate ride, and the tour de cure in june. guys were actually telling me that i was so fast that i should "quit my job and race semiprofessionally". i really had no idea how to take care of my bike or even how to really ride it properly. looking back, i really was in great shape and probably should have started to compete with a proper bike.

a year later i got a road bike at the same shop and it was a size large. it wasn't a Women specific bike. it was way too big for me, and i had no idea until i started dating my now husband. the people at the shop were nice, but i think that they just wanted to sell me a bike that day, even if it wasn't the proper size. i should have done more research, but i thought people at the bike shop would help me, since they work at a bike shop. i don't know if they would have done the same thing to a guy.

i was ultra competitive, but not as much now. i never rode with groups, and i have always liked to do my own thing, riding at my own pace. my husband has done a lot for me as far as getting up my confidence to ride in the city/commute, and he takes care of my bike. i decided that i need to start taking care of my own bikes instead of just riding them.

as far as being a woman and cycling, i don't really consider it any kind of issue. i am not the same size i used to be, but i can still find clothes. i usually buy guys pants to ride in anyway. i'm kind of a tomboy anyhow. i used to get annoyed by girls on the ms wearing those skort things. i dunno why. i don't really care now.

i joined this board cause i want to get involved more and know more about group rides and participate if it fits my schedule. i do kind of stay away from "womens riding classes" or "womens whatever" because i'd rather hang out with and do things with both guys and women. that's just how i am.

though one thing i did notice while doing pedal pittsburgh: i did the 60 mile, and i didn't see any women doing the 50/60, and most certainly not making it up to mt washington. maybe i was ahead of them cause i left at 7? i normally just see people on a bike as a person riding a bike.

i later

@stefb -your my hero now!!!!!!

There were a bunch of women on the longer routes but I think they left around 8 or 9. Two rode with me, a half dozen with the MTCC, and a lot of randoms. We were *real* late though. We stopped at mullin's for breakfast en route.

that's awesome.

I've gone into Iron City Bikes a couple times with random questions; the guys there didn't ignore me but definitely didn't do more than answer my questions. Trek in Shadyside, the guy was very helpful. Trek in Cranberry, a friend works there so I have no problem there. Pro Bikes, though, was probably the best experience I've had--very friendly employees who didn't ignore me just because I'm a girl. Mind you, none of these times were shopping for a bike, just random accessories and parts.

I'm really into snowboarding, so I'm used to being the minority as far as gender is concerned. However with that, I can hold my own with guys in terms of skill and knowledge better than I can with cycling.

Konagrl, I think I know exactly what shop you are talking about. If it matters, being a fit young 20-something, I was never treated any better there.

Kayla, I think that is the general consensus with Iron City. I used to get that feeling down there until I met some of the guys there outside of the shop.

Though, my favorite shops in Pittsburgh are still Thick and Kraynicks.

Though all around, I think there are very few people in the cycling community (locally, at least) who care about gender. I think some of the bad experience women have in shops have nothing to do with them being women, and more with them being non-regulars.

I'll admit that I sometimes in move involved in regular customer's shopping than someone who is in my store for the first time. The reason is I know them, I know what they like, and I know they like to talk. Sometimes I am hesitant to talk to a new customer too much as not to annoy them. I think you'll see this in any type of specialty retail.

i think that had there been more girls at the midnight ride last night there would have been a little more talk about gender in the bike scene today... as it is we didn't really experience that because there were so few girls, but that was a good example of testosterone out of control on that first hill.

"Out of control"? Really?

It was fast, but I don't think it was out of control. The style of the ride is quick but very patient and I try to maintain that attitude the best I can. Do you really think it was that bad?

i think it was too fast for a 'no drop ride' on the first hill before anyone knew that people would be stopping at the top. i'm sure it calmed down after that because it was a lot of downhill from there but i definitely would have been intimidated if i didn't ride 20 miles a day... i was probably spinning at like 80-90 rpm at 38x16... thats a long hill and i was near the back by the end.

i don't think it was inappropriate since everyone was stopped at the top, i do think it was a bunch of guys (and one girl? good for her) flexing their muscles, thats kinda what fast(er) rides are about though, which is why i posted it in this thread and not the midnight mass thread.

Giving credit to Kayla, she was in front of a few guys.

I think it is partially my fault. I think as a bunch of us become use to the ride, we forget to introduce the ride to new comers. I think I'll start the rides with a short explanation before we start out (like FOC).

I think it was also odd to only have one girl. Usually we have at least 5-6 during MM (~1/5 female). I know a few of the usual female riders didn't make it because of other obligations.

I'm not really sure why there isn't more girls. Maybe they have more exciting (non-bike) social lives than the guys?

i have to admit i was impressed at how nerdy the group was... just missing a couple triatheletes and a bent to round it out.

This post is kind of paralleling my post in the MM thread, but had it not been for my ankle giving out I would have been in decent shape. Sure, I don't ride 20 miles every day (if only...) and I'll admit I was a little intimidated by the fact that it was all guys...but whatever. Here's hoping next time goes better.

Wow, I actually never noticed that cycling was a formidable masculine enclave.

I've been riding in Pittsburgh with other cyclists for 25 years, and there have always been women role models around me. One of my first big events was our first 150-mile MS150, and there were plenty of women riding and attending the training seminars. I helped organize Tour de Cure about 15 years ago and the organizing committee was about 70% female. When I did trail work regularly with PTAG my main contact there was a woman; the IMBA Trail Care Crews I've met were all hetero couples. The editor of Dirt Rag is a woman. I volunteered at the Arts Festival bike valet last Saturday with another woman and her male partner (plus a male mechanic). A lot of the riders whose bikes we parked were women, both solo riders and with a date or families.

True, I'm not easily intimidated. I probably have a bigger ego than the average woman. But still, I just don't see the lack of women described in the editorial.

I have had issues with local independent bike shops ignoring customers who don't look like they're going to be buying a $4000 tri bike. (Used to be just Pro but ironically BikeTek is just as bad now.) I don't really see that as sexism. The chain stores seem better.

Also, Speedgoat in Ligonier is awesome (they are independent but not exactly local). I bought my last bike there and had no problems. One example, I have small hands and short fingers and I had problems reaching the brake/shift levers on the bikes I test rode (my first drop bars). The guy working with me immediately suggested some shifters that had smaller tops (hoods?) and fit much better.

There is one bonus of being a woman cyclist in a sexist society - I think motorists are less likely to hassle us. Nobody wants to be a guy in a car picking a fight with a chick.

To me cycling has seemed to be a bit of a boys club. As an outsider - even now it can feel that way - the idea of urban cycling was one of young men engaging in some macho posturing. To be honest that was a bit of the draw for me - to be different, to be a female on a bike and prove that I could do it too.

There were many other more important reasons, but as a woman I think you always have it in your head that you are in the minority, and that unless you are dressed attractively and act in a deferential manner (ie, don't speak unless you have something nice and lighthearted to say, don't draw attention to your accomplishments and knowledge) your presence doesn't really matter. Cycling, as a female, has been a great challenge to this lingering conditioning I was brought up with.

Recently I was sitting down with two other bike riders, both male. I ride a single speed around the city and have a geared bike - my first bike! - that I recently took on my first tour. The conversation came up about fixed gear riding. One of the men made the comment that fixed gear riding was "all about the size of your dick"

My other male friend asked, "So what if you are a female?"

The man reiterated - "it's about your dick"

Yeah. It's this sort of attitude that intimidates women - and it intimidated me for a long time - that leaves room for us to feel that urban cycling and commuting is a boys club. This is especially true when the men pouring out this crap know more than you as a woman do or have more experience riding. You start to feel that you don't belong by virtue of your sex. Being able to challenge that just by getting out there and riding feels good though.

Luckily, most men I have met - and it has been men who have shown and encouraged me - have actually treated me like a human, and are happy to explain things when I show an interest.

I have found that when it comes to displaying my knowledge of MY bike, I have to speak up A LOT more in order to get it through. . . that if I don't know something, I don't want you to do it for me. . . teach me, and let me do it myself even if I am slow at first. I have found myself frustrated at times when a man is all too eager to make a repair that I can make myself. . . leaving me to have to step up and say "Hey, THANKS, but I'll be doing that with my bike." Then, being a woman (HAHAHA), I feel like a jerk for asserting myself

I had a good experience at Iron City bikes not too long ago, when I went in to ask some questions about a problem I was having on the bike. I was intimidated, and my boyfriend spoke first about my bike, but I stepped up and began asking some questions. The guy told me what was going on, made a few adjustments and suggestions. Didn't feel any sexism there. It's always intimidating walking into a bike shop where people know more than you do. The fear of looking like a fool crosses gender lines, but in my experience at a few LBS, I've never felt talked down to or taken less seriously.

& I personally don't find it nice that motorists are more likely to hassle my male friends than me. It's more evidence that I'm not taken quite as seriously. On my recent bike tour, a man who decided to lecture us about how unsafe we were riding in the road - and by doing so, holding up a lane of traffic - chose to direct his lecture to the men! It gets tiring, feeling invisible because of your sex, and sometimes you wish someone would yell at you. Someday maybe all of that will change.

I liked the article & thread though and it's good to see that there are so many other women out there - with much more experience than me - riding and organizing events. I believe that alone can encourage more women to get on their bikes.

TurkeyClaw (interesting name), you should think about coming out to a Flock of Cycles ride, or Midnight Mass. Both are very welcoming to everyone (except red-light-runnners and traffic-blockers).

Don't worry, if you are sluggish on MM, I will tease you just as much as I tease Impala26 (our designated caboose) .

Also, it was mentioned earlier that MM only had one female rider--that isn't usually the case. I'd say on past rides it was 20-30% female (that is an estimation, I don't really pay that much attention)