BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Uh oh. The helmet topic

See previous thread

http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/helmets

I didn't wear a helmet up until i moved to Pittsburgh, which was June 2009. And the main reason i bought one, was so i didn't get crap on every ride i went on. Haha. I do wear one every day now though and actually just bought a second helmet. (Race looking helmets are for road bikes.) Haha. But i see helmets much like religion. You wear one? Cool. Believe in Jesus? Good for you. Doesn' mean you have to preach to others the safeties of wearing one. We know they are safer than NO helmet. In the very rare cases i forget my helmet or go out without one that's my choice, no one elses. And that, i suppose is how i feel about helmets.

I have the 'might as well' mentality about them now, i don't mind them..and my Bern helmet, i actually really enjoy wearing. It's insanely comfortable and looks good!

What Bern helmet do you wear? I can't wear my Brentwood in temps above 50 without it being too hot.

Uhhhhh, it's the Macon or Watts? I wanna say. Not near it right now..It's the visored one. I'm sure in the Summer it will be a bit toasty but i've only owned it for a week now, used it three times.

Wanna see what my Watts looks like after my wreck?

My mom (a physician) got all teary-eyed when she saw it. It's chilling.

I'll be doing business with Bern again. It did its job, and it was comfy, too. (Although I don't know whether I could have handled it during the hottest parts of the summer, to be fair.)

Yes, please post pics. You appear to have a good head on your shoulders both before and after a major wreck, and the helmet made all the non-difference.

i dont wear a helmut but i want to start wearing one are those bern helmuts the best ones i want to get a good one

My bern helmet has more coverage and less vents than my road helmet. Too bad I probably will get too hot to wear it in temps greater than 50 degrees, but I do appreciate how warm it is probably keeping me.

What is the appeal of the Bern helmets over a decent road type helmet?

There may be some practical aspects such as, the hard shell may be more durable over time or something. But I think it's pretty much just style, an alternative for people who don't want to look like racer wannabes or "Cyclists", instead of just people who happen to be riding bikes. If that alternative gets people to wear helmets who would otherwise balk, it's a good thing. I have a white road helmet, a black mtn helmet, and am thinking of getting a Bern. Or Nutcase.

The bern style helmets seem to give more coverage, as well, at least on the sides and the back.

I have similar reasons to those CPollack originally stated. I rode without for a while, but bought one when I was living in the suburbs in Maryland for a bit (the scariest place I'd ever been). Finally got used to it, and I feel like so long as I own it I can't justify not wearing it. If anything happens, it's easy to say I don't have a helmet, but I have one and just didn't feel like wearing it today? so I have it and I wear it... and I don't get yelled at by people in cars who think they know better.

I've read a number of papers on helmet use.

Marko82 once posted a summary paper for me to critique. I haven't gotten around to it yet. I know what I think about that paper, but without actually doing a referenced critique, I see no reason to argue about it. (que: sigh of relief from onlookers)

The protection provided by a standard bicycle helmet is extremely limited. I wear a helmet for the same reason I used to wear a necktie: if affects how people react to me.

Various times I rode wtihout a helmet.

When I was kid, no one wore bike helmets. Ever. IIRC, I was well over 20 years old before I ever saw a bike helmet in a non-racing situation.

When I was arguing about the science, I rode without it on the street. It was a little scary. The first time I did it, I felt I was taking my life in my hand - even though before 1976, I had thousands of miles in without ever wearing a helmet. I found that there were situations where I felt very vulnerable.

But those situations, like going down a hill at 30 mph with traffic, are hazards that standard bicycle helmets are not desgned to be helpful in. They simply are not in the design specs.

That feeling of vulnerability was realistic, of course. But a helmet doesn't do much (if anything)to lessen that vulnerability.

The way people react to you without a helmet is very different. Getting yelled at, buzzed or cut off by cars, and shunned or ignored by other cyclists, was far more common without a helmet. The social aspects of riding without helmet were hurtful to me.

And what if a driver had killed me? I imagine the legal and media repercussions would have been, "He wasn't wearing a helmet. End of story." Even if I died of a crushed chest.

When I have ridden the trails to DC and back, there were some 90+ degree days that I took the helmet off. The irony is that these conditions, moderate speed with no traffic, are what a bike helmet is designed to handle.

I'm Downtown without a helmet myself today, planning on biking home. My biggest problem with being helmetless is that I'm also without my main blinky, which is attached to my helmet. I don't trust the ones on the bike, which tend to get blocked by what's on the rack, and anyplace else I've attached one it's gotten snapped off.

Mick, I have another site for you that (I think) represents your views on the subject.

http://cyclehelmets.org/1045.html

*If the risk of injury when cycling is very small, so the risk of head injury is much smaller. It takes over 3,000 years of average cycling to suffer a serious head injury, and the risk of death through head injury when cycling is very small indeed. Cyclists are a little less likely to die of head injury than pedestrians or car occupants.*

@marko wait. is that while wearing a helmet or not?

BTW there is one published study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457506001540) which measured the response (measured by the gap while passing) of drivers to cyclists riding with and without helmets, among other things. It turns out the best response was to a cyclist wearing a woman's wig with long blonde hair and no helmet. Wearing a helmet actually made drivers pass closer.

So, for what it's worth, you're probably at less risk of getting pushed off the road by a car without a helmet than with one.

I think if you ask around you'll find the 3,000 years estimate is absurd. The risk of head injury is much higher than that. I myself have been riding for decades, not millenia, and have suffered a concussion -- I woke up in the emergency room after missing a turn. Broke my helmet but not my head.

@marko



Mick, I have another site for you that (I think) represents your views on the subject.

http://cyclehelmets.org/1045.html

Marko, that is an excellent site. I'm not sure about the particular quote you made, but the site has excellent references for both pro- and anti-helmet studies.

What does that mean? Like every 3000 years in rider hours or whatever someone suffers a head injury? There are a lot of riders...

I'm sure this has been posted here before, maybe, but it is a neat take on not wearing them: http://video.tedxcopenhagen.dk/video/911034/mikael-colville-andersen

I think the site’s position is that the likelihood of a fatal bicycle head injury is so small that it is hard to tell whether wearing a helmet helps or not. Our gut may tell us that wearing a helmet is a good thing to do, but the ‘statistics’ around the issue is less than conclusive.

According to that site, you are more likely to die of a head injury as a pedestrian than as a cyclist. I didn’t review their claim, but it sorta makes sense since just about all pedestrian ‘accidents’ involve getting plowed over by a two ton car, so yeah a lot of head trauma there. But a lot of bicycle/car accidents are less than fatal because of the cyclist’s forward momentum, higher body position, relative speed, etc. Mind you this is all speculation on my part. Hell, it might be that cyclist are in better physical shape than your average pedestrian and therefore have a better shot at recovery.

BTW, I am very pro-helmet (especially for kids), but I think after a certain age it should be up to the rider.

"BTW, I am very pro-helmet (especially for kids), but I think after a certain age it should be up to the rider."

The primary reason that I wear a helmet is for the example it sets. I don't really have any reasons not to wear a helmet.

I have had things fly up from the road. My eye pro and helmet took the impact, not my eyes and head.

Back to the Bern helmets. They just don't strike me as safer in that my experiences with that style of helmet (skate/freestyle BMX style) is that they often times hurt just as much when you hit your head. Has the padding inside changed drastically such that the helmet absorbs impact? In the woods I have fallen and had a helmet "crush" a great deal. I was fine, 100% fine. I know with my old helmet I would have likely had a massive headache. It seems that their protection is more for stuff flying up rather than impact.

For what it's worth, I got a head injury in my first year of cycling - a non-fatal one, if you were wondering. Definitely would have been worse without a helmet. Your mileage may vary?

Brains really don't like to decelerate rapidly, even from moderate-ish speeds like 20mph, and helmets can't entirely fix that. But they can, if nothing else, make it hurt a LOT less and prevent other (not-caused-by-sheer-deceleration) injuries when your head hits asphalt. (Meaning your brain may get knocked around and you may get a concussion or more even with the best helmet, but you might at least be able to avoid cuts and scrapes and giant bumps and bruises and additional headaches and broken skulls on top of whatever's going on internally.) Your call, if that matters to you.

@stu: I'll post those photos of my helmet eventually. The photos aren't actually that impressive compared to seeing the helmet in person and knowing about the accident + injuries, but they still make it pretty clear that I would have been worse off without it.

The Berns are now made with the same deformable foam interior, the stuff that does the actual absorbing, as the more typical bike helmets. The main difference is the rigid exterior shell. If my head was heading for an actual pointy rock in the woods, I would want the Bern type.

Ok, so the real difference now between the two styles is the drastic reduction in venting.

You could say that.

I can't do mountain biking in the summer with my Bern. It's just too damn hot. It was worse than trying bikram yoga with a hangover.

However, it did protect my skull when I went head first in to a barrier wall at Ray's. I think I put a hole in the wall, but I wasn't too much worse for wear, well, except a slightly kinked neck. However, I didn't see any noticeable deformation of the helmet.

It's worth noting Berns come in two varieties - they still have a multi-impact kind for skating and whatever (the kind you don't have to get rid of after a single impact) and a kind that meets bike standards with the styrofoam you'd expect in a bike helmet (the kind that has to be replaced after one significant impact). They sell some styles in both varieties (the men's Macon and Watts, the women's Brighton, etc.), so if you're buying a bike helmet, make sure you buy a bike helmet and not a "hard hat" or whatever they call the other ones.

@pearmask - If stills don't do the helmet justice, I wonder if you could do a quick video? Do you have the technology to do that? (I wish I myself did, but that's another story.)

spapperman - Helmet use has been well studied. If you are seeking information for an academic class, you would be better served by consulting the existing research. A quick search revealed several relevant papers:

The Bicycle Helmet Attitudes Scale: Using

the Health Belief Model to Predict Helmet Use Among Undergraduates

http://bit.ly/A4Idog (pdf)

Middle School Students and Bicycle Helmet Use: Knowledge, Attitudes, Beliefs, and Behaviors

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1746-1561.1998.tb00594.x/abstract

Barriers to Bicycle Helmet Use Among Children

http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/6/741

My helmet is a multitasker. It offers protection to my head in case of a fall, keeps my head relatively warm in winter, and flattens my hair, which is welcome now that I have short hair and it sticks up in every which direction.

However, I'd probably still wear it if it didn't do the last two things.

Stu, I do have the technology. Photography equipment is the other hole into which my money disappears (other than bike stuff). I'll post one eventually. Video/photo stuff is the kind of project that I tend to get way too wrapped up in, so I'll do it once I am caught up on real-life things. (Bike wrecks are not a good use of time when you are a graduate student. Blergh.)

I guess I should also minimize how much I post here about that accident until the legal stuff is figured out, but I don't know whether posting something like that would be an issue.

Probably a good call. Hang onto it, and/or make the video while fresh in mind but keep it under wraps until the dust and lawyers settle.

I read a few posts in the thread but the topic is too damn boring.

Sometimes I wear a helmet, sometimes I don't. I would say I wear one when riding more often than I don't. When doing other things like rollerblading I only wear one if I am with a yuppie skating group that won't let you be in their club without one.

Wearing one is not a bad idea, nobody should feel stupid for wearing one. Its a personal choice. My kids will wear one because I make them. When they are old enough they can decide for themselves.

Sometimes I wear a seatbelt in the car, sometimes I don't. Why? Because sometimes I feel like it, other times I don't.

I don't think it gets much more complicated or require this whole in-depth analysis.

I was hit head-on by a car going 30mph while I was also going 45mph down a hill. I flew over the car and landed 20 feet away in the grass on my back and sprung up off the ground and attacked the 90+ year old senile old hag who ran into me (who subsequently lost her license for life). The people who saw it thought they just witnessed someone's death until I got up and thought they were about to witness the death of an old lady.

I've been injured for an entire season TWICE while wearing a helmet as well.

They say cigars will give you cancer and make you die, then George Burns smoked cigars every minute of his life and lived to almost 100 years old (or older, who knows) while "Jim Fixx" the health guru dropped dead at 52.

I don't wear a helmet when I ski. I'm sorry but snow doesn't hurt as much as pavement. Trees? Sure... But I'm not wearing a helmet when I ski anyway.

You know you live in a country full of idiots when they need to get into these huge debates about things that are basically a personal choice where people's choices really have no effect on your own life (unless it is a spouse or good friend of course).

Do you think they are having a drawn out bicycle helmet debate in the 3rd world where kids are getting AK-47s for their 12th birthday?

Also... The hypocracy of MAKING people wear seat belts while some stupid pig on a billboard is telling you to "CLICK IT OR TICKET" just makes me feel the need to tell THEM to "SUCK IT OR F#CK IT!"

Yet people who ride motorcycles don't need to wear one. They also get to have the loudest exhaust known to man and that's cool but I can get a ticket from a pig for an air leak in my car's exhaust.

I think there are more important things to give a crap about this day and age than whether someone cares about their own personal safety or not who has nothing to do with you.

Hey pearmask, heres a link to some software that will let you make a 3D model out of your helmet !

3D models from photos

sweeeeet. i'll have to try that if i can find a computer with the system requirements.

My head is going to explode from just reading this thread. I can't comprehend..... Ugh.

spapperman apparently hasn't come back to see all of this or participate and you guys just keep on yappin.

Internets version of a dropped cell phone call.

Internets version of a dropped cell phone call.

Or getting stood up on a blind date...

More like a blind group date, where the guy who originally planned the thing didn't show, but a bunch of other people did, and stood around jawboning.

To the OP... what kind of class?

I can think of a number of reasons to poll "whoever" or mine ideas from here, but the useful answers depend on the question's context.

There's psychology - risk assessment/aversion, avoiding the questions, (not) wanting to look like a member of a group, confidence in effectiveness.

There's physiology - comfort, ease of use.

There's economics - perceived cost vs. perceived benefit.

When I don't wear one, it's because I think that I won't get pestered about it by the people around me (motorists, cyclists, pedestrians) AND believe the risk of needing its protection is negligible. This is most likely to happen on a trail, and least likely to happen on the streets.

@ADAM - you might be the coolest person on this board...EVAR!

FWIW - I generally don't wear a helmet when I ride. I don't race any longer, so don't see the need to "train" with one on, since I am not racing and need to replicate the heat and other itchiness, etc caused by wearing a helmet.

That being said, I do own a nice high buck ($150+) SpecialED race helmet that I occasionally wear (maybe half dozen times a year). Not sure why I choose to, but occasionally do. I now have a fixed gear bike with no brakes and I do tend to wear it when I ride that figuring my chances of hitting a car or something might be increased due to the lack of brakes. I always wear a helmet when I MTB - a hospital trip helped cure me of that. But I tend to crash a lot when I MTB since I am doing jumps and drops, etc.

Noting an earlier post, I think the Bern helmet are really good looking and if I could be sure one might be better ventilated- that might get me into more regular helmet wearing. I like the Watts - but I take an XXL and most shops don't carry that.

Finally, I've known three people personally to have been killed riding their bikes. One guy ran a stopsign and got hit broadside (massive internal bleeding killed him, not head trauma). he was not wearing a helmet. the other who was wearing a helmet, died from severe spinal and neck injury sustained in a race , the last was hit on a backroad by a passing car (was wearing a helmet) and again massive internal injuries.

I've generally been of the non-scientific mindset that if you "crash" your bike while riding you probably won't sustain major head injuries and if you get hit by a car, your injuries will probably extend well beyond head (and quite possibly be fatal), so the helmet becomes less important in both scenarios.

As i may have posted in the other thread - I also own and ride a motorcycle. This is a completely different argument. I ALWAYS wear a helmet, full leathers, gloves and full boots. If you are in a single-bike crash (you) at anything above a relative crawl - you are in for major head injuries at a minimum. And if you get hit by car - forget it. luckily, on a motorcycle (unlike a bicycle) the throttle can allow you to take evasive measure to AVOID getting hit by a car. You don't have that luxury on a bicycle - bicyclists are truly vulnerable and are highly victimized. this is why I generally think motorcycles are SAFER than bicycles. I know others in this forum feel similarly.

I don't believe motorcycles are safer than bicycles strictly based on the speeds involved - and the statistics I've seen (which I know are suspect) do not agree with you. What is "above a relative crawl", because that sounds like a speed you can easily reach on a bicycle.

As I posted in another thread, I wrecked my bicycle on ice doing probably 10-15mph a couple weeks ago and basically did a high-side. Pretty sure my knee and hand hit first then my head (right around the temple), so I'm not sure how much impact my head took. It felt like someone sucker punched me and I was woozy for a minute or two but basically fine after that. Not sure how much worse it would have been with no helmet - at the least the scratches on it would have been on my head instead and likely a nice bruise to go with it. Beyond that is just speculation. Does a helmet really have to prevent "major head injuries" to be worth wearing?

Really trying to avoid saying something that will touch off the helmet wars. I'd like to add one thing to the discussion: your chances of survival of a fall (of any kind, not just from biking etc.) from a height of just 10 feet are 50/50. Above that, you are more likely to die than live. So we are far more fragile than we generally believe.

@Adam

"Yet people who ride motorcycles don't need to wear one. They also get to have the loudest exhaust known to man and that's cool but I can get a ticket from a pig for an air leak in my car's exhaust."

What good would a seatbelt do on a motorcycle? There's no protective box around it so keeping a biker in place is basically useless. If anything, I imagine the operator might be more likely to get crushed underneath it.

As far as sound goes, I think I've heard more people with aftermarket mufflers than I have have noisy bikes and my neighbors used to rev their sports bikes down my street all the time. (Not sure why they stopped recently; maybe because it's winter or I'm just not around.)

"I think there are more important things to give a crap about this day and age [...]" Can you please allow us the freedom to choose what we want to care about?

Seat belt laws were enacted because they save lives. I bet if you posthumously polled drivers whose lives could have been saved by seat belts, most would have chosen to wear it if they knew it would have saved their life.

As far as helmets go:

That's from a crash I had last Thursday, going down a hill about 30 MPH. Between my knee, hips, and shoulder I probably have about a four inch square of road rash, excluding the more lightly abraded areas.

Notice how scratched up the glasses are and how scratched up the helmet is. That would have been my forehead if not for the helmet. Also, it's cracked.

I was able to ride home. I'm not sure that would have been the case if I wasn't wearing the helmet.

Another time I fell on a patch of black ice and the back of my head hit the pavement. I was wearing a helmet. I kind of phased out for a few seconds and got the tinny ringing noise in my ears. I was able to get up and go to work. If I wasn't wearing the helmet, I think I would have had a mild concussion.

When I was a freshman in high school I didn't wear a helmet. One of my neighbors always cautioned me and said I should. One day after a field trip I went unconscious while riding my bike home. My forehead hit the pavement and I just laid in the street like a sack of potatoes until an ambulance came and got me. That time half my face was scabs and I got a mild concussion.

My life may not have been saved by helmets, but I think it's certainly saved me trips to the hospital, scrapes, and lowered my potential of lost wages.

Wow Pierce, I hope your ok. Were you on 885?

I am indeed okay, just missing some skin.

Yep, the road I've been on hundreds of times... Going down Lebanon, got a yellow in the middle, lady hit her brakes ahead of me, then I hit mine (I don't think I was tailgating either) and it was slippery.

I also realized my rear brake was out of tune, so when I hit the brakes, my front wheel probably slipped out more so because of the inadvertent unequal application of braking

Glad you're OK.

Technically I think you had a mild concussion. Moderate concussion is when you lose consciousness but can remember up to the point of the accident (that's what I got when I woke up in the emergency room after missing a turn. Helmet cracked but not my head). Severe concussion is when you lose memory prior to the accident.

@salty:

Does a helmet really have to prevent "major head injuries" to be worth wearing?

+1

re noisy motorcycles: I have a neighbor who I really like, but she's got a boyfriend who rides a Harley. I know when he comes over (every time). I know when he leaves (every time). I know which direction he turns off of our street, and the next street, and even the street after that.

I don't want to know these things. I wish them both well and I'm glad she's happy with him, I just wish the vehicle they both enjoy so much were a little quieter (thank god he's not one of those people who sits down, starts up, and revs it for half an hour without moving). If they were prone to traveling later at night, I'd not wish them well, and I'd not be able to be friendly.

While the two worlds overlap in some interesting ways, and with some interesting people, I'm not sure I'd call them similar enough for any kind of comparison at all. Besides, motorcycles have more and better paid lobbyists. (this is my impression - is it true?)

@ejwme: Motorcycles certainly have scarier lobbyists. For example, Exhibit A versus Exhibit B:

PA motorcyclists also have their own lobbyists

http://www.abatepa.org/

I.E. They became lobbyists for their own cause

re motorcycles: A few things. I will NEVER not wear a helmet on my motorcycle. I always wear a full face helmet, gloves, armored jacket, and shoes that cover my ankles. I do ride in jeans, and that's a tradeoff/risk I'm willing to accept.

I will also admit to having a slightly noisy exhaust on my bike. The stock exhaust is pretty quiet, and on the highway especially, there's no hearing it over wind noise. My aftermarket one helps me to be heard by drivers a bit more, maybe making me less invisible to them. I also like the way it looks and sounds. That being said, it's nowhere near the noise level of some of the Harleys and other bikes you hear.

I like graphs. This one shows a steady decline in motocycle fatalities until states start repealing mandatory helmet laws. Then the rate begins to immediately start a steady climb. I should like to see the data from before 1993 but it is fairly clear.

Freedom. But at what cost?

The libertarian in me says that people should be free to do whatever sort of moronic things they want but the socialist in me realizes that as more people kill and severely injure themselves because they are not wearing helmets the more hospitals fill up with patients, the more trips the ambulances have to make, the more police we need to manage traffic while the mess is cleaned up, the higher insurance premiums go up, the higher medical costs go up as hospitals have to manage the increasing levels of carnage. At some point society decides that they don't want to keep paying for everyone else stupidity and institutes restrictions for the good of all. It happened with seat belts and other automobile safety features. It happened with motorcycles as well but society forgot, influenced by a powerful special interest.

The cycle continues.

@Dan: I thought that was a 'bent lobbyist, actually.

@Brian: Why are you dissing Scott like that?

Something new on this: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/really-the-claim-cycling-is-the-top-sport-for-head-injuries/ Not trying to start a helmet war, just thought people might like to know.

So, I'll follow the tangent and speak up for the motorcyclists here. There are two types of people that ride motorcycles: people that don't wear helmets, and people that actually know how to ride a motorcycle. Generally speaking, the people you see cruising on their Harleys are amateurs who ride short distances a few times a year. Motorcycles are extremely deceptive in that they feel very easy to ride, until the moment that they don't. Anyone who has ridden a motorcycle for any appreciable length of time eventually experiences the moment when they learn how quickly their control over the vehicle reaches its limit in terms of its ability to avoid an accident.. That's why anyone who has ridden a motorcycle for any appreciable length of time wears a freaking helmet. (It's also why such a large percentage of the MSF's excellent motorcycle safety course is firmly focused on using attention-focusing techniques to try to minimize the chances of getting into an incident in the first place, rather than just talking about recovery techniques.) Yes, it's completely stupid that motorcycle helmets are not required in Pennsylvania. Please don't use that as a reason to not wear a bike helmet. Because the people riding motorcycles without their helmets are basically playing Russian Roulette with a semiautomatic. It is not a question of if they will be seriously injured in an accident; it is a question of when.

I lost my helmet last week and did a couple days of helmet-less riding before it showed up. I freely admit it was cooler and more comfortable going without. It felt freeing, even. And if I were just riding the GAP or something I'd probably go without. But I felt indulging that line of thinking too much would be dangerous. I put a time limit on things... if I couldn't find my helmet that weekend, basically, I'd just buckle down and buy another. Fortunately, I found it. I was relieved, and I found slightly to my surprise I didn't mind putting it back on again. Perhaps it's that being klutzy and not all that confident, I just come up against the edge of my feeling of control a little more often. But ultimately, I think it's the same story for anyone... it's fine without until it isn't. And maybe that never comes, maybe even for a majority of riders. But if it does, dunno, the perhaps slightly elevated risk of a rotational neck injury doesn't scare me like THUNK head hitting the pavement.

October 15, 2008. ER doctor to my wife: "If he had not been wearing a helmet, he would most likely be dead." End of discussion in my world.

I heard of doctors saying that. More than anything, it is an indication of lack of rigor in medical education. For the most part, bicycle helmets are too flimsy, and skulls too thick, for the helmets to make much difference other than as a fashion object. If it is unsafe to do without a bicycle helmet, it is also unsafe with a helmet.

Something new on this: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/really Why are they comparing bike head injuries with sports injuries? The hundreds of thousands of car-related head injuries are not listed as "sports injuries," are they?

I got hit, thrown over the hood of a car, and landed on my head. The helmet cracked. As it was, with the helmet, I suffered a concussion, and don't remember anything for ten minutes after the crash. Including getting my phone out of my seat bag and calling home and work to tell them what happened. I came to in the ambulance, and it was ten minutes before I could tell them my name, where I was going, and how old I was. Would it have been worse without a helmet? I believe so. Dead? I'll never know. But I'll also never take that chance.

@Mick, the danger is not in the skull cracking, it is from a brain bleed. Helmets are flimsy so they absorb the impact of the crash and prevent the shock to your skull that would result in this. I was riding my bike to work one morning, with new panniers on the back, missed a turn and hit a curb because of the unfamiliar handling, and woke up in the emergency room. Helmet had a nice crack right over my right temple.

jonawebb wrote:... I was riding my bike to work one morning, with new panniers on the back, missed a turn and hit a curb because of the unfamiliar handling, and woke up in the emergency room. Helmet had a nice crack right over my right temple.

This. Like @byogman, I went for a while w/o a helmet due to forgetting it at my sister's house in CT. I actually ended up stopping wearing a helmet for several months... but, I eventually realized I wear a helmet because I am 1) clumsy and 2) tend towards the obliviousness side of the spectrum. If I get hit by a car, a helmet may or may not save my life/mitigate the damage. But it's already saved me from two serious falls and a one low hanging branch. YMMV, more graceful/observant cyclists could very well be fine. But for me this is a choice that works.

Picture of my son's helmet after going down on the perfectly flat jail trail moving around 18 mph on a misty morning when his foot slipped off the pedal and into his wheel, causing him to endo. He bent his steel frame, buried his chainring into the frame, and warped both wheels. Had this been his scalp, I can't even imagine...

I occasionally forget my helmet, but I try not to make a habit of it. I don't have a story of my own, but I do have this: My mother had a college friend who, around the time I was born, was hit by a car while riding without a helmet. I was 20 or so when he died, having never regained consciousness.

Bike helmets SAVED MY LIFE TWICE in ONE YEAR. Well worth the sixty bucks each one cost. Both times no cars were involved. 'Nuff said.

How is it that I know over a dozen people whose lives were "saved by a helmet"?

Related: Washington Post asks, Do bike helmet laws really save people? (For my own part, I find that when I do end up without my helmet, I ride more carefully and am given more space by drivers, such that I seem to be marginally less likely to need that which I am without. Perhaps only confirmation bias, though somewhat borne out by Ian Walker's research into motorist behaviour around male- and female-appearing cyclists with and without helmets...)

I am a very good athlete, so I really just don't understand the need for a helmet. As I watch other cyclists riding about in a fashion that is... well not exactly smooth and fluent, I would have to agree, most people should not only wear a helmet, most probably shouldn't be on a bike and should consider walking instead.

Mick wrote:How is it that I know over a dozen people whose lives were “saved by a helmet”?

...because you know lots of bike riders who wear helmets, and it turns out that the research shows that bike helmets are effective at saving lives? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23706604 (Bicycle Helmet Laws Are Associated with a Lower Fatality Rate from Bicycle-Motor Vehicle Collisions.) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23377086 ("Helmet use was associated with reduced risk of head injury in bicycle collisions with motor vehicles of up to 74%, and the more severe the injury considered, the greater the reduction. This was also found to be true for particular head injuries such as skull fractures, intracranial injury and open head wounds") http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23071369 ("Not wearing a helmet while cycling was associated with an increased risk of dying as a result of sustaining a head injury")

Eh, wear one, don't wear one, it doesn't really matter to me. Helmets are out there and available, everybody knows helmets exist, it's up to each individual to decide whether to use one or not. Sometimes I wear one, sometimes I don't, it's not really anyone's business. I see dozens of people out toodling along on cruiser bikes at 8 or 9 mph without helmets and I don't think they're in particular mortal danger. The best thing is that they're out riding. At this point in history, I do find evangelizing about helmets incredibly freaking annoying. This is one of the most rational statements I've seen about the issue: http://momentummag.com/features/moving-the-conversation-beyond-helmets/

I do wonder how much it depends on how fast you're riding. If you're "toodling along" at single-digit speeds, even if you fall over you're probably not going to get hurt particularly bad; you might even manage to not hit your head at all. On the other hand, if I'm riding to work at 20mph and go down, there's a good chance I'm going down head first or nearly so, and I like the idea of at least having something between my scalp and whatever I land on. I don't support helmet laws because, yes, they scare people off, and the people they scare off are the people who aren't likely to need them. I support wearing helmets because you never know when you _will_ need one, and, well, better safe than sorry.

gg wrote:I am a very good athlete, so I really just don’t understand the need for a helmet. As I watch other cyclists riding about in a fashion that is… well not exactly smooth and fluent, I would have to agree, most people should not only wear a helmet, most probably shouldn’t be on a bike and should consider walking instead.

trolly troll troll troll. Thanks for the valuable insight into your superiority. If i was as amazing as you I wouldn't waste my time complaining about every god damn thing under the sun on a message board, I'd be outside being totally pro.

@cburch, true, but let's pick this apart anyways. It'll be fun!

I am a very good athlete, so I really just don’t understand the need for a helmet. As I watch other cyclists riding about in a fashion that is… well not exactly smooth and fluent, I would have to agree, most people should not only wear a helmet, most probably shouldn’t be on a bike and should consider walking instead.

Maybe you are very athletic. You know what? So are a lot of people who get nailed. Whether they do comes down to a complex stew of riding style, luck, where they ride when and in what conditions, and how much. From an old thread I seem to recall that you had no interest in the behaviors statistically proven to be safer, and that your appraisal of your riding style markedly differed from another who rode with you. Your statement was then that your fellow rider "couldn't understand" your riding style because you used a mirror. Well, a mirror is a nice aid, but not a mysterious one. It does not make much of any difference in what basically is and is not a safe way to ride. And nobody is especially objective about themselves. I'll take his assessment over yours any day. I also recall later in that thread you were hot on a brakeless fixi and riding in that style because it's so fast (reading only the tiniest bit between the lines, I'll take that to mean that you don't plan on stopping much when you ride the thing, which is a dangerous plan). And then you acknowledged the danger of it, but said it's your choice. Indeed it is, but when you make plans like that, and broadcast that you're throwing caution to the wind there's no reason anyone should think later that you really care about safety all that much. So then, if safety isn't your thing, why post on this? To brag about yourself, or to down people who go about their business in a slower, less skillz oriented way? Cause that's all that's left. Look, athleticism and skillz can help in some situations, but many of those situations can be avoided in the first place by riding in a way that's more visible to and predictable for drivers. Most riders who aren't elite still manage to ride in a perfectly safe way. Being willing to stop, and generally not expecting skillz to get them through any dumb situation they put themselves in (and therefore not putting themselves in dumb situations) helps with that. And lastly, those that are not athletic are the ones that much more to gain in terms of years to their life and life to their years by taking up riding. It takes character to put yourself out there, damn the appearances. When I see someone who's badly out of shape struggling hard and very slowly up a hill, I give a nod of respect. You should learn to do the same.

gg sucks.

To go along with Ben, For me i still consider road riding to be the most dangerous riding i do, more so than downhill, dirt jumping or cross country. And I have ruined helmets many times pushing my boundaries in those disciplines, including splitting a few in half. There's no way I'd be caught on the road without a helmet. i would be willing to wager that i and many other helmet wearing commuters i know would leave your bike handling skills in the dust begging for mercy. This is a group that includes actual pro cyclists, ultra endurance riders, trials riders, downhill racers, fixed gear freestylers, dirt jumpers and all sorts of other amazing athletes. The most accomplished cyclists i know always wear a helmet for the same reason that i do, on the road you DON'T ultimately control your level of risk. The drunk, angry moron texting his boss and screaming at his wife while eating a burger and going 10mph over the limit while running red lights to do a no-look right hand turn does, and I don't trust that asshole.

I didn't know gg stood for Gaston Gaston? No one bikes like Gaston!

@byogman, Nicely said.

byogman wrote:I freely admit it was cooler and more comfortable going without.

Ben, I sweat a lot and I found that bandana works really nicely by wicking sweat, evaporating it and cooling my head.

byogman wrote:But if it does, dunno, the perhaps slightly elevated risk of a rotational neck injury doesn’t scare me like THUNK head hitting the pavement.

Yeap.

gg wrote: ... As I watch other cyclists riding about in a fashion that is… well not exactly smooth and fluent, I would have to agree, most people should not only wear a helmet, most probably shouldn’t be on a bike and should consider walking instead.

Well isn't that special. You know, when I was 10 my hobby was walking/running across fences. Around baseball diamonds, ice skating rinks... anything really. Whether they were topped with metal bars, or a 1/2 inch wide plank of wood, I could make it across almost anything. Later, I made my own tight rope rig between two trees. Adults suggested that I look into working the high iron when I grew up. I was balanced and graceful as child. In my mid-20s a virus attacked the sheathing that surrounds my nerve cells. I won't go into details about the illness or the long, long recovery. But I'll just say that to the day (15 years later) when I'm tired, I get a little wobbly, my fine motor control is off, and yes I might have some issues concentrating. So, yeah... when I've ridden 50, 60 or a 100 miles it might affect my riding. Although I doubt its anything that people who know me or have ridden with me have noticed. And I take what I feel are appropriate measures to compensate for that, taking into account the safety of myself and others. One of those things is that I wear a helmet whenever I ride. That way if I suddenly decide to turn a 10 mile ride into a 60, I'm all set. But your statement has made it clear to me that whatever the reasons for my failings, I am clearly unworthy to be on a bicycle. I'll stop cycling forthwith.

I think as part of Bikefest we should have an event where we can sit in the shade of a nice tree somewhere along gg's commute. We could then be enthralled by his athleticism and superior cycling skills as he goes by. I think it would be well attended.

Mick wrote: How is it that I know over a dozen people whose lives were “saved by a helmet”? @peterB because you know lots of bike riders who wear helmets, and it turns out that the research shows that bike helmets are effective at saving lives? Please cut the shit, dude. Don't patronize me then cite three paper where two of them are trash. You're wasting my time here. I started riding in the 1950's and, as far as I know, no bicyclists wore helmets then. The people I've known that have died in traffic accidents, and there were many, were all in cars. If all these guys who"would have died" if they didn't have a helmet were real, then I'd have known friends to die on bikes. A LOT of them. I haven't. I really believed in the efficacy of helmets until I started reading the scientific literature "supporting" it. Plenty of people have good careers publishing rah-rah helmet papers that are a waste of time and paper. Peter, one of your papers is actually interesting. It seems to actually show what it proports to show. That is interesting because there are very few (if any) pro-helmet papers for which this is true. I've searched befreo and had not found any. (Zip. Zero. Nada.) So if that paper does hold up, it's really important. Some signal amongst the copious noise. I'll have to look at it carefully later. The exercise of riding a bicycle is a health benefit that overwhelmingly outweighs the risks. Some minor difference in safety with helmet-wearing, if it even exists, doesn't change that. Convincing people that riding a bike is so unsafe that you need a helmet? That is a dishonest and unhealthy message that increases mortality.

@Mick, I'm not sure if you're including me in the list of people whose lives were saved by wearing a helmet, but I'm not including myself. I might have died, but there's a good chance I would just have had brain damage. Which, you know, concerns me quite a bit, too. If you ask around when you're on group rides you'll find quite a few people who have had an accident where a helmet made a difference or would have made a difference if things had gone a little bit differently. My own accident is nothing special, and it's only the third serious accident I've had in a lifetime of riding. And in the other two my helmet didn't matter -- could have, though. So, I'm guessing, if you ride without a helmet the chances are pretty good that it won't make a difference. But the downside is pretty rough.

Speaking of asinine debates, can we talk about the superiority of circumcision versus not being circumcised? I'd also like to start some discussions about theism versus atheism, Star Trek (Original) versus Star Trek TNG (specifically, which is better), grape versus raspberry jam, jam versus jelly, Coke versus Pepsi, bacon consumption versus veganism, and the best way to prepare a steak for the grill... I assume this is the proper thread for all of those topics?

Seriously? Star Trek TNG is totally better. Also, atheism beats theism hands down, raspberry jam is better, jam is better than jelly, Coke beats Pepsi, veganism is better, and the best way to prepare a steak for the grill is by cooking it sous vide and then finishing it at high temperature. Ask me something hard.

Star Trek would have been better if it featured bacon. Bacon makes everything better.

Star Trek is a serious subject and should not be taken lightly. I have had many serious debates about the greatness of Star Trek. If you want to make jokes there is always those silly Star Wars movies.

Mick, you make a sarcastic comment, and then swear at someone who responds with a little bit of snark an links to three scientific papers - not very constructive. If you think some of those papers aren't valid then go ahead and say so, but so far the most egregiously unsupportable claim made so far was when you claimed that bicycle helmets are too flimsy to protect a human skull. There may be a debate about whether it's important from a policy perspective to encourage helmet use for cycling, but the idea that a proper bike helmet won't improve your chances when your head hits the pavement is ridiculous. http://www.vitalbmx.com/videos/member/ARF-Presents-Certified-vs-Non-Certified-Bicycle-Helmet-Impact-Test,43560/kylecarlson,363

@Mr. Marv: I take my bacon very seriously. And it makes EVERYTHING better. Even sci-fi movies featuring the dude from Fantasy Island (the one with the accent, not the little dude - although he did have an accent, too.).

@AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe I was going to suggest a helmetless/helmet/vegan/vegetarian/omnivore debate if we wanted to get into a REAL debate, but since I just watched an episode of Star Trek TOS, I'll jump on that TOS is pretty jokey. I watched The Menagerie, where Spock contrives all these things to get to a planet they're forbidden from contacting and Kirk is like "What the hell Spock, I would have gone, no problem." And then the whole reason they went there was to drop off a former Captain who is like the old guy in the wheel chair from Breaking Bad with the bell for yes and no (robot chair can control movement, but not language, makes no sense...) and the old guy meets up with a lady who he previously was like "You're ugly and deformed, so obviously the only solution is to leave you isolated on a planet of aliens..." and they both go in ugly exile together Also, the reason the lady gave why she was deformed was "the aliens didn't know what humans looked like" but the aliens are humanoids and look essentially human with just big craniums Makes no sense! Also, the latest movie was bleh. Crappy remake; and any remake that tries to reuse iconic lines from the original always fall flat IMO

@Pierce No! Noooooooooo! [Smashes glass] I will not sacrifice the *The Message Board*. We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. You invade *every thread* and we fall back. You assimilate entire *posts* and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make you pay for what you've done! Consider that your final warning for insulting Star Trek, go pick on Star Wars it can't defend itself.

An interesting and timely article in Bicycling Magazine this month: http://www.bicycling.com/senseless/ And Mick, before you pooh-pooh the article because it came from a source you might call trash, read it.

mr marvelous wrote:@Pierce No! Noooooooooo! [Smashes glass] I will not sacrifice the *The Message Board*. We’ve made too many compromises already; too many retreats. You invade *every thread* and we fall back. You assimilate entire *posts* and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make you pay for what you’ve done! Consider that your final warning for insulting Star Trek, go pick on Star Wars it can’t defend itself.

best captain ever.

"And he piled upon the driver's white hump the sum of all the rage and hate felt by his whole race. If his chest had been a cannon he would have shot his heart upon it."

@WillB

mick

2013-06-05 10:55:26