BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

As to where to put one, if you're going to have only one, I suggest hooking it to your helmet. If you have a second, hook it to something on the back of the bike that won't be obstructed by rack, luggage, clothing. If you don't have/wear a helmet, then clip it to your shirt collar.

Check it/both periodically to make sure that it actually is on and pointing backwards. All too often, it's on but pointing down, or off onto the shoulder, and doing you essentially no good.

incidentally, i disagree with stu. if you have only one light, it should point forward. cars coming up from behind will have their headlights on you, whereas a car, say, turning from a side street into your path will have no way to see you if you aren't illuminating the way.

I was thinking of rear lights because front lights are already required by law. I interpreted the thread to mean "if you are going to have one light beyond what the law requires".

I'm referring to the folks with no lights at all, thats why I'm just asking for one light. Go nuts and get 14, but at least have 1.

Sorry to pile on Stu, but I've got to disagree as well. If you've only got one rear light, attach it firmly to you seat post or the back of your rack. That way you don't have to check if it's pointing the right direction because it is attached to a fixed point. Backpacks, shirts, helmets, etc. lend themselves to crooked lights. The most visible light is one that is pointing straight back behind you and doesn't move.

i'm going to give 1/2 support to Will, half to Stu, and half to HV.

Except for the rear rack mounting point (god love DIN), any mounting point is going to have aiming issues. LEDs are quite directional. The advantage of the helmet is that if you put the light on solid, you move your head around enough that at least at SOME point, it's going to be aimed at the eyes of the driver behind you. Backpacks, belt loops, messenger bags are definitely the worst. Seat posts can be good IF the mount doesn't loosen up and rotate so that your light is pointing at the ground.

I like fender-mounted tail lights. A bit lower than a rear rack-mount, but well positioned and difficult to obscure with cargo.

I picked up a huge taillight at the Trek warehouse sale for $10 and it usually goes for $25. This is the brightest taillight I have been able to find! It’s not available on line anymore but they might still have some at the Trek store.

http://store.trekbikes.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1536&itemType=PRODUCT&path=1%2C2%2C4%2C15%2C478%2C480&iProductID=1536

I don't think it's smart to ride without lights (and it's also illegal), but for the most part the city is pretty well illuminated by streetlights.

Back in the 90s I never used a light, and it was mostly out of sheer ignorance, but I don't really remember anyone using lights. I didn't really think I was doing anything dangerous. I bought a light once but it took 4 batteries and lasted an hour or two so I couldn't really afford it. I had no idea that a light was legally required for riding at night until I started hanging out on this board. A rear light is not required.

So, not saying that people shouldn't be encouraged to use front (and rear) lights, but I can understand how people don't.

If someone wants a cheepo LED Harbor Freight sells a red blinky for $5. I put one on my nephew’s bike and he though it was the coolest thing ever.

http://www.harborfreight.com/red-led-bicycle-taillight-98417.html

I think a big part of the problem (and this applies to many of the dangerous things that pedestrians and cyclists do) is that when you can see the cars it feels like they can see you, although once you get in a car at night you realize that this is obviously not the case.

Doesn't that mean the cars are "driving too fast for conditions"? Why is it the cyclists and pedestrians fault that people driving cars can't help running them over?

As far as rear blinky I use the Planet Bike Super Flash it is crazy bright I mount it low so not to blind the group ridders behind me. Trek Shadyside has the Super Flash Turbo. it is slightly brighter.

One more thing a trick I learned to make a cheap blinky brighter, switch out the batteries for the Energizer Lithium Ultimate, the batteries add a little more juice to the brightness of the light

I was sitting at BRGR the other night, at the intersection of penn circle south and s. highland, watching the street and watched too many people ride by without any lights.

Everyone who is a part of traffic is to maintain the responsibility of being able to be seen. This is why runners wear reflective gear and cyclists are required to have lights. 25mph is fast enough for me to not see a cyclist dressed in dark clothing traveling at 10mph until I don't have enough time to stop to save someones life.

If you want to uphold some sort of stance that involves "screw the man, I'm not wearing lights and I shouldn't be required to", thats fine for you, but it puts everyone else on the road, drivers, cyclists and pedestrians alike, in danger.

I'm not sure how violating a law you aren't aware of is saying "screw the man", but that's definitely not my point.

Now that I know better, I always ride with front and rear lights (sometimes 2) and often with a bright yellow reflective jacket. People definitely have the option to make themselves more visible, and at a minimum they should at least follow the law (although, I guess I'm still not doing that by virtue of lacking some "required" reflectors).

At least in the city, the streetlights already provide a lot of illumination, so cyclists and pedestrians are already visible. Extra lights and reflectors can make you more visible, but you're definitely not invisible without them.

Sorry, but I just don't think cyclists are visible enough at night without any lights at all, even in the city. They're a dark moving blur if you can see them at all, not to mention seeing them quickly enough to refrain from colliding with them. Motorists are forever "not seeing" cyclists during broad daylight. People don't think to be on the lookout for cyclists as it is, and darkness compounds this problem.

Just one blinky may not be enough to render you sufficiently visible, depending on conditions, but it's better than nothing.

FWIW, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but don't cars have a responsibility not to collide with things on the road, illuminated or not? Isn't hitting something you didn't see evidence that either (a) you weren't paying attention or (b) you were travelling too fast for conditions?

Sure, as a cyclist you want to reduce your odds of getting hit, and adding lights, reflectors, bright clothes, etc. can certainly help... but isn't that stuff all "backup" instead of primary? Pedestrians aren't required to do any of that, and they might be on the road, along with a lot of other non-illuminated stuff.

Assuming this message board is essentially preaching to the converted. I just posted a similar thread over on the roboto messageboard.

Not to be melodramatic or anything, but saying "cars have a responsibility not to collide with things in the road" is cold comfort when you're dead.

I hear some cyclists say things like "when I ride my bike, I ride like I'm invisible to drivers!" (or even worse, "I try to MAKE MYSELF invisible to drivers"), which is completely contrary to safety and common sense. Wear bright colors and lights and reflective clothes. Don't ride in the gutter or on the sidewalk. Maintain a visible position in your lane. The point is to make yourself visible so that you'll register as a presence in the road to drivers and they can plan what to do as they drive (pass you, honk impatiently, scream "GET ON THE EFFING SIDEWALK" or whatever ).

A driver who cannot see you, regardless of whose fault that is, is not making decisions with your presence in mind about how to negotiate the road and can easily do something in all inadvertence that will kill you. Invisibility can kill you.

Anecdata: I find that motorists often seem to be more courteous to me at night, perhaps because they see this slow-moving lit-up thing ahead of them but can't quite see what it is (a motorcycle?) and end up slowing way down.

And maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm under the impression that motorist/pedestrian collisions are not at all uncommon.

Clobbering a garbage can is trivial. Clobbering a cyclist is not. Put a light on, front and back. What more needs to be said?

I generally ride with at least a rear blinkie when it's daylight and grey. When it rains, front & rear. Rising/setting sun as well. I don't care if it looks dorky... I just really don't trust drivers' ability to pick me out of all the background noise, particularly when about a third of them are on the phone or texting.

I also admonish bike ninjas at night if I'm driving & really can't see them reasonably. Almost hit a guy at Penn & Negley 2 months ago... if you're not going to run with lights, at least get some reflectors. I understand the exceptions for wanting to be stealthy in some neighborhoods, but if you're in stealth mode, at least don't run red lights.

Salty: The "why should it be the onus of the pedestrian / cyclist to protect themselves against motorists" is what I see as a 'screw the man' idea. I'm just saying that it is everyones responsibility to protect themselves against everyone else.

Cars have lights so everything else can see them in any condition. Same with motorcycles, same with pedestrians, same with cyclists. I'm not pitting anyone against eachother, this is about sharing the road and sharing responsibilities.

More importantly, idiots dressed in black riding the wrong way on a one way street with no lights or reflectors.

I am going to be so pissed off if the thing that takes me out is a ninja cyclist.

People who think that streetlights provide enough illumination are probably under 30 years old. Loss of night vision with age is pretty striking.

Not that I want anyone to have any personal injury, nor do I want anyone to ever be in a situation where they hit someone who is not visible, but think about this: stupid people may be doing us a favor by taking themselves out of the gene pool.

@salty - no, hitting something at night is not definitive evidence that you weren't paying attention or were going too fast. The fact is, there's a practical limit to how well a driver can see at night, and it's unreasonable to expect every driver to be permanently prepared for an unlit cyclist (or pedestrian, or even another car) to dart into the road.

I would also recommend the planet bike blaze 2 watt superflash combo kit. As an aside, you can get other mounting brackets for the taillight, like http://ecom1.planetbike.com/3108.html

http://www.rei.com/product/797836/planet-bike-blaze-2-watt-front-bike-light

http://www.rei.com/product/772679/planet-bike-superflash-stealth-rear-bike-light

I have, by pure accident and on very few occasions, found myself cycling through certain neighborhoods at night and intentionally turned off my lights, at least my headlight. That was for safety.

Now i've got pedals that light up that I can't turn on/off, so if that happened now, I'd still be a little sparkly.

This week I finaly procured rhinestones and reflective rainbow heart and star stickers to adorn my bicycle with. For safety, of course. Everyone should apply Safety Rhinestones to their bikes

I've got a question - the plastic part that holds the clip onto my rear blinky (planet bike superflash) just broke. In order to not be the subject of this thread, I was wondering what kinds of things people have rigged up in such a case. Do you think superglue would work, or should I find some other way to keep my light securely in place?

Don't use superglue. You're looking for more of an epoxy like JB-Weld.

Could also give the nice folks at planet bike a call - they're pretty cool about helping people out and might just give you a new clip.

In my experience neither superglue nor JBWeld work on thermoplastic. I've been enjoying success with the urethane adhesives like Rhino Ultra Glue, but I would not rely on it for a stressed clip alone.

One can find instruction for "plastic welding" online, but lacking the specific tools I have not tried it.

Can you drill and install a metal clip with mechanical and adhesive connection? (In other words it can be kluged.)

Giving planet bike a call or email is a good suggestion too, robjdlc.

This thread makes me want to reread Zodiac.

the white part (the square that holds the clip in place) is what broke.

I should have read this thread first

I just superglued the white part back onto the body of the light, then the black clip into the little square part that it sites in.

I really hope it stays until I can get a new one or call PB, I'm pretty much terrified of being lightless.

RF - one time I fixed a different light by disassembling it, drilling a hole from inside the case and sticking a screw through. Then I bolted it onto my rack. Just be careful the screw doesn't short anything out. You might be able to rig something with zipties too.

Just to give the dead horse one more whack - definitely it is in your best interest to make yourself as visible as possible. I wouldn't call people who don't use lights "stupid" - it's a bit on the "blame the victim" side of things for me. If people are doing other things like riding the wrong way, blowing red lights, or darting in front of cars, that is an issue regardless of their illumination level.

@RubberFactory: I do hope that works for you, but I've little confidence your repair will endure the sharp shocks of cycling. Can you wrap the whole assembly in clear wide packing tape too?

Also, if no packing tape or you're reluctant, slip a clear produce bag or similar over the entire assembly and secure. If it does fall apart, the parts won't go anywhere and everywhere.

If you do decide to replace it entirely, please don't send it to the landfill. I'll be happy to relieve you of the damaged device. Or freecycle it? Or offer it up for grabs here.

What salty said: live light or die dark.

It's only wrong to blame the victim when the victim is blameless. Darwin Awards exist for a reason.

You can thank me later.

Or for the same price, you could buy twenty of these.

But you wouldn't get a "personalized invite to the launch party" and a reflective sticker.

I'd give my money to some hipsters from New York with a neat idea rather than the Walton's and a Chinese sweat shop owner.

Kickstarter is not Groupon. You aren't buying something because it is a good deal.

(re: Kickstarter sample photo:) Holy sh*t. I wouldn't stand that close to a cab going that fast if I was a 1000-watt human freaking lightbulb.

kickstarter.com is a scam.

Why should I put up investment capital and not earn a return? The t-shirt (or whatever tchotchka I end up with) will certainly be worth less than the money that I put in. And I don't get any share of the business that my money helped get started. I don't care if it's 0.1%; that's just how investing is supposed to work.

I'm all for investing in neat new ideas, but this is not "investing".

A friend of mine got funding to do research needed to write a book she's been working on to expand on the documentary she made through kickstarter.

Fleeting pages also got it's funding through the site.

It's not necessarily about getting a return, I think it's just more about, "I think this is a cool idea, I'd like to see it become a reality."

Kickstarter is in no way a scam nor does it play itself to be an investment in the traditional sense.

Route A:

"Hey I've got an idea for this widget. Need a bunch of money to make it happen."

"Oh cool, that looks like a neat idea, heres five bucks"

"Sweet, thanks"

Route B:

"Hey I've got an idea for this widget. Need a bunch of money to make it happen."

"Oh cool, that looks like a neat idea, heres five bucks"

"Looks like not enough people thought this was a good idea so I didn't raise enough money, heres your five bucks back"

"Bummer, thanks"

It would be a scam if no one ever got their money back. This, like Rubberfactory said, is a way of showing support, and sometimes you get a kickback in product, service or recognition.

If one views Kickstarter as a democratically driven micro-MacArthur program, rather then a Kiva model, it is in no way a scam. Seems to be more a "Sprout Fund/Seed" model, like that which gave BikePgh its start, but funded by the people not the "powers that be". Now how could anyone on this board have problem with that?

I'm all for upsetting aristocratic tendencies in this country. That's why we had a revolution, right?

Ok, I should have been clear that I make a distinction between community/artistic kickstarter projects and purely commercial ones. The former are great, because it's a way for non-commercial enterprises to get funding for, basically, stuff that's unlikely to ever make any money, thus unlikely to attract an investor.

The latter just doesn't sound right: I'm not helping someone write a book or do a photo essay; I'm giving them seed capital to start a business. If they want money to start a business they should be ready to share the rewards with the investors that made it possible. Of course, this is America and if you can convince people to give you money...

I'd like to think I would donate (time, money, things) to a business if I liked them and wanted to see them remain in business. No incentive needed except for their continued existence.

anyway, I wonder if they'd make a reflective shirt or bag that says "You can't say you didn't see me" on the back.

@RF: that's a great idea!

Following the kickstarter philosophy, why don't you make that into your own kickstarter project? Realize that you might need to come up with a catchy video. If that's not in your skill-set, I bet you can find someone who'll do it, for a cut of the revenue.

(OT: I'm barbecue'ing ribs for company just now [Texas-style, why do you ask?] and cruising the interwebs to pass the time. I just read this article, which somehow seems a propos of the subject at hand.)

Post your address and I'll be right over to kickstart your rib eating... I won't even make you pay me!

I just heard a bit on the radio this morning about kickstarter.com, and the founders seem to be still getting used to the idea of the commercial/product ventures that happen on their site - that was not their original intention (more artsy than commercial, but they're adapting as their site changes).

Personally, I love the idea. If a product/idea interests me, or I think it's super worthwhile, it's $5 well spent. If I think a product/idea is butt, pass. Nobody's mandating giving or hiding the true nature of the gifts. Nobody's required to do this to get any funding at all (traditional avenues all still exist). I really like it.

RF, if you haven't lost your light or completely fixed it by now, I'll second the clear packing tape suggestion. It's useful like duct tape but see through - I use it to keep one of my lights that's prone to breaking in one piece and attached to my bike.

It hasn't fallen apart yet (knocking on wood). I may just buy a new one if I ever get the money. in the meantime, I'll just be extra careful not to let things get bumpy.

RF: Bumpy happens. Enclose the apparatus in a clear plastic bag then wrap that with clear packing tape if you don't want to stickyfy the blinkie.

but then how would I clip it to my bike/bag?

Try either wrapping it after clipping to intended target, or, if you want it to remain removable, slide a folded section of the plastic bag up into the clipping slot.

Okay, I get it now. That sounds easy, I'll try it...probably when I remember. Heh, too braindead lately. (All work and no play...)

OMG. Around 9:00 p.m. tonight, I was going westbound on Ellsworth Avenue approaching Morewood when I see a shadow up ahead in my lane. A no-light cyclist, I can tell. Sigh.

But wait. He's coming towards me. No lights, wrong way. I cross Morewood and he's still in my lane.

He must see me at some point, and we do an awkward dance of avoidance--I hear his tires skid and for a second I think he's going to fall. But he doesn't, and he rides out of my way. I yell "wrong way! Wrong way! Lights!"

Ugh.

Driving through midtown Philadelphia at night last week, Joe and I were dumbfounded by how many cyclists there are dark, salmoning, and have no regard at all for traffic laws. Pgh cyclists by comparison are fairly well behaved.

I Was quite excited tonight. I took the dogs to North Park to run around and there were multiple groups of cyclists, the racer types, with lights on their bikes. Not just enough light to say they have it, obnoxious "look at me" lights.

@ian we are going to be doing a targeted light giveaway in Oakland soon. Stay tuned for more info.

Pgh (insert anything) compared to Philadelphia are fairly well behaved.

?x ? pittsburgh, ?y ? philadelphia, f(s) : well-behavedness of s, f(x) > f(y)

@ian westbound on Ellsworth Avenue approaching Morewood

Ellsworth is a frequent conduit for street salmon. I think the bars in Shadyside may be a major spawning ground.

I must go investigate. I am, after all, a scientist.

Studying salmon spawning territory, eh? Sounds like a tough roe to hoe...

"Roe to Hoe"?!?! oh I cant bear it!!

Always something fishy happening here.

Sounds like a boating problem, row v. wade.

I bet some of those salmon are half baked, too. I prefer smoked salmon to smoking salmon, personally.

I sure thqt in spawning areas of Shadyside, one could find smoked salmon. Or baked salmon. Or marinated salmon.

Just saying.

at least they're not fully baked salmon, that would truly be a shame.

every time i see this subject bumped up to the top, i just think of the many people who don't understand what the term "Mark" means. yeah, sure - be visible - TO SHIFTLESS CRIMINALS WHO WILL BREAK YOUR COLLARBONE OR SHOOT AT YOU FOR FUN.

i frequently ride lightless, and guess what? i am fully aware that i am not visible - so i ride accordingly - which, coincidentally, is about the same way i ride in full daylight: i assume that nobody can see me and it's up to me to not get hit or hit anybody else. i will wear a back light most of the time if i have my bag, but if i don't have anything to carry or i'm riding my seatless trials bike - screw it.

if it bothers you that much that someone is riding in the dark without lights, then you should become a cop or something - then you can apparently paralyze some dude for not having a light if you want.

and furthermore - whatever happened to the phrase "no harm - no foul"?

...what the term "Mark" means (from the Free Online Dictionary):

"In Arthurian legend, a king of Cornwall who was the husband of Iseult and the uncle of her lover Tristan."

Now we know.

or: Author of the second Gospel in the New Testament and disciple of Saint Peter.

@unixdork: Serious question here: what happens when you have multiple people on the road, going in different directions, at different speeds, and none of them are particularly visible?

Any mode of road operation that is based on "it works if I'm the only one doing it" leaves something to be desired, in my opinion.

I understand your fear of other road users; yeah, there are quite a few jagoffs out there. But seriously, most of the hazardous ones are dangerous because they're OBLIVIOUS, not malevolent. Hiding only works to help protect you from the rare psychopath; it makes getting clobbered by Typey McTexterson even more likely.

(Not to mention, in the rare case you do encounter a "let's knock over the cyclist" monster, he's got a tailor-made excuse for why he hit you...)

I fully believe that no matter the driver, the ride is always partially responsible for what happens. This includes MAKING yourself visible, no matter the vehicle.

Unixdork- Sometimes we need to remember that like it or not, our actions will be lumped in as representatives of the cycling community. Sometimes it is only that thought that keeps me waiting at a red light even though there are no cars approaching in either direction. Do you really want to be identified as another one of those scofflaw cyclists that ride without lights?

"to live outside the law, one must be honest" Bob Dylan

i have personally witnessed groups of kids jumping out at cyclists in front of me who had lights on because they had their MARK picked out from a mile away thanks to the flashing light heading right toward them. ...it's like a "moth effect" for juvenile delinquents.

most often, i'm riding a bike without much of a seat and a near 1:1 gear ratio... you really think i should mix in with traffic and be a "good cyclist"? really?! LOL. i'm only in the streets when i feel it's safe or when i need to cross - or when i decide to be lazy and ride a bike that is super efficient compared to a trials rig.

the problem i see is this: a bunch of ninnies getting worked up about people cycling without lights for no real good reason.

honestly - how often do you think that the main reason a bike accident happens is because of a lack of lights or reflectors on the bike? i would bet it is so small compared to any other cause as to be near insignificant. also, some people can't afford $40 worth of lights for their trashpicked commuter - which i see plenty of. there is no reason to sic law enforcement on "scofflaw ninja bikers" who seem to not be causing much destruction and pestilence, despite the outcry.

a few years back, i had some useful idiot driver stop behind me at 5th and neville as i was waiting to turn left toward ellesworth and shout at me "i can't see you!" - i was totally wearing a red flasher on my bag and one mounted on my bike and a front light to boot. i had shoes and a jacket with reflective material on both. need i mention the required powerful halogen headlights on the front of this idiot's car lighting me up? this guy is the same as anybody who claims they "can't see" all these people that they clearly are "seeing" - a whiner. i would not be surprised if this guy was also a cyclist.

i pretty much use lights only when riding in groups at night - which isn't often.

seriously, it's no wonder we live in a nanny police state here in the USA - nobody seems to want to let people make their own decision to take their own lives into their own hands. i'm fine with knowing that if i screw up and don't pay attention i could get killed. i simply don't understand what is so horrible about that.

Don't pretend like reckless behavior doesn't affect the rest of society.

i'm fine with knowing that if i screw up and don't pay attention i could get killed. i simply don't understand what is so horrible about that.

It's not just about you, my friend. It's also about whoever else is involved.

IMHO, taking your own life in your hands is utterly cool, so long as you aren't screwing around with other people's. And, putting someone in the position of having hit or killed you is very much messing with their life, even if they're breathing afterwards. Believing that no-one else will be affected by your death is a bit short-sighted.

I've worried about reflectors before - if a car is threatening me to the point I want to hide, reflectors can't be turned off.

As for visibility, I became committed to lights after driving down that major salmon stream, Ellsworth Avenue, at night. Bike riders were so little visible that I was in danger of hitting them.

As I used more lights and reflectors to became more visible, I've found that the harassment from drivers has dramatically diminished. Only a part of this is from changing attitudes towards bikers, because I made most of my changes in visibility habits last century.

I was so angered at flashlights with a buck of specialed equipment for bikes costing $40 that I used maybe $10 worth flashlists, rubber bands and red cellophane. I can't afford to ride without lights.

So, I'm guessing that the "harassment" you're getting, Unidork, is mostly due to drivers being legitimately angry when your behavior threatens to put them in a fatal accident.

Sometimes we need to remember that like it or not, our actions will be lumped in as representatives of the cycling community.

i have heard this trotted out time and time again, and i just don't think it's true. certainly there's no real evidence that it's true.

the people who complain about other people on bikes are going to do it no matter how well behaved folks are. they're just not going to get it, unless something changes their outlook. all we can do is wait for them to die off, so to speak.

now, i'm all for well-behaved bikers—i'm one of them, if you'll take my word for it. but i'm not doing it because i represent you or anyone else.

i would be happy to change my mind given sufficient evidence that i'm wrong, but a bunch of people complaining about cyclists isn't the kind of evidence it takes. they won't like us "ir"regardless.

+1 unixd0rk (and HV). i already got kicked around earlier in the thread, good luck.

I light up with an abundance of caution because drivers suck at what they're doing to begin with, let alone with a smart phone in one hand and a beer in the other.

...let alone with a smart phone in one hand and a beer in the other.

HAHAHA!!!!

"when your behavior threatens to put them in a fatal accident."

this strawman position you've built never happened, therefore why worry (or complain) about it? the times i have had to educate drivers that they almost killed me in broad daylight while commuting had nothing to do with me riding without lights. i have had ZERO problems riding without lights, and i suspect i won't ever - i have many thousands of miles in on these streets in the last decade-plus and i have never once been in a bike/car or bike/bike accident regardless of how i choose to ride at any given time. it's all about paying attention to your surroundings and correctly gauging risks and making safe decisions in the control of your vehicle. i have also never been in a car accident while operating a motor vehicle in my almost 2 decades of driving.

some idiot was creeping into the crosswalk the other day here in oakland, so i manualed across the walk about 8 inches from the front of his car. he had some shit to say - but i don't think it was because he was worried about anybody's life. some people think that their "personal space" extends outside of their stupid cars - so they whine and complain about things they IMAGINE could have happened. i mean, this guy had every RIGHT to pull right into a crosswalk with people walking (and manualing a bike) through, right?

again, i wonder - how are the people complaining "seeing" these supposedly "invisible" riders? ...or is it just your imagination? if you "see" invisible riders, then THEY AREN'T INVISBLE.

if you are riding at night, i'd say look out for "invisible" pot holes and jaywalking pedestrians and opening car doors before worrying about someone riding without lights who most often you actually SEE, just not so well.

I've been a motor vehicle driver, driving after dark in my neighborhood (5 blocks from my house), with headlights on, going pretty darn slow (it's my neighborhood, full of people/dogs/kids to pay attention to even at night), paying decent attention (no texting, no conversation, no personal crises), and DIDN'T see a ninja cyclist salmoning my way until he was 6 inches from my bumper. It wasn't just difficult to see him, I couldn't see him at all until his spokes (from the side) started reflecting my headlights (matte black bike, black clothes, matte black boots - I'd actually seen him other times riding at dusk, and recognized him). Luckily he was 6 inches to the side of my car, not 6 inches in front of my car.

I'm really glad that I saw him as I passed him and not as I hit him. That time, he WAS invisible until it would have been too late for me to change course. I don't care about personal space for my car, I care about maintaining my personal ignorance of what it feels like to injure another person. I care about my ninja neighbor staying in one piece.

I don't want people to wear bright colors, use reflective clothing/bags, and use headlights and tail lights because I want to tell them what to do. I'm not demanding that they travel the same direction as traffic in an attempt to take away their independence and right to make decisions for themselves.

When something shines and sparkles in the gray murkey distance along the dark road, it catches attention. When attention is caught early, reaction time is longer, enabling a distracted, impaired, fatigued, or otherwise compromised driver a better chance at avoiding collision (sometimes just NOT doing anything and letting the cyclist take care of themselves, sure).

Able bodied drivers of sound mind who are alert and driving in the city on a well lit road may have no trouble at all seeing and reacting to a ninja salmoning cyclist. Just like, yes, I've biked through a place and intentionally turned off my headlight due to my personal perception that being seen from the front was more of a danger than a help (rear blinky stays on, but I don't salmon). But on the whole, it's just safer to be seen than not, and it's easier to be seen lit up than not.

Maybe you're lucky or that good or whatever that you've never had a problem over a long time of riding and driving. But saying the problem doesn't exist because it's never happened to you doesn't make sense. I'm really glad you've never had an issue, and no matter whether you're a glowing beacon of perfect legality or a salmoning ninja, I hope you never ever have any problems. But I personally believe you are more likely to be safe if you are more visible to drivers.

I think most drivers whining that they can't see you is really a confession that they were startled (thus scared) by you or fear that while they saw you they think others will have trouble. It comes from fear. Some drivers are just jerks, true. But on here, nobody asking you to light up is doing anything other than trying to help you as a cyclist stay safe, and trying to keep themselves from reading on here about another accident involving a cyclist and the statement "I didn't see them..." True, it probably won't work, we'll continue to see those posts. But that's not going to stop the majority of people on here from caring and trying to convince people to do something they truly believe will help keep them safe.

@ unid0rk. Dude, you are classic.

this strawman position you've built never happened,

I don't know what you mean here.

You mean, a classic strawman argument?

Like you addressing a post to me, then ranting incoherently about the use of the term "invisible riders," when I've never used that term?

(Neither on this forum, nor anywhere else. Just a strawman of your imagination.)

Classic.

How are any of my arguments like that? I hope none. I don't see any in this thread.

Are you trying to tell me that drivers never get freaked out and hostile over near-accidents with barely visible bikers?

If you are trying to tell me that, you are simply mistaken.

Are you trying to tell me it never happened to you?

What was that driver that said he couldn't see you at Ellsworth and Neville complaining about, then? If him shouting at you wasn't a problem, then why did you mention it here? If it WAS a problem, then the problems you've had with drivers due to you not having lights is greater than zero.

Sure, people here refer to dangerous, barely visible bikers as "invisible" when we all know they are at a least a little visible - possibly when it is too late to avoid hitting them, but still somewhat visible. I don't think they are trying to fool anyone.

You ran into driver in Oakland who was hostile to you for reasons other than you riding lightless (perhaps for other reasons, I should say. Jury's out on that one.), so drivers aren't concerned with near-fatal accidents?

i mean, this guy had every RIGHT to pull right into a crosswalk with people walking (and manualing a bike) through, right?

Classic strawman argument there, too, isn't it?

Can you find any better examples of a strawman on this board?

I mean, like, ever, not just in this thread?

You know, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, you will find that immediately juxtraposed to him using a dishonest rhetorical tool, he names that tool, by accusing the "maintream media" of frequently using it.

Were you trying to highlight your uses of the strawman in a similar way?

I'm not even sure what's happening in this thread at this point...

I was thinking though. I kinda want to be seen better now. So, I'm going to scrounge up the cash for something like this -> http://www.rei.com/product/819679/pearl-izumi-elite-barrier-convertible-bike-jacket-mens In the bright yellow. I need a new bike jacket anyway. I'll need to check the store and see if that's a reflective panel in the back or not though.

I think being seen is kinda cool. And the statement ejwme made about the "all black" rider got me thinking, that sounds kinda like me (I have lights though). The death thing is something I'd like to avoid till after I've had kids at least.

...after your kids are decently grown. Having said that, I have no plans for offing myself anytime soon.

I fear for my son, though. Not sure if by intent or negligence, but he tends to wear black a lot, and has a flat-black helmet that I've equipped with lights more than once, only to have them disappear again (like now). I can keep buying and installing them, but he still has to turn them on. There's only so much that anyone who cares can do.

Oh well, time to run over to Thick and buy a couple more lights.

If you want to be seen right now! the simplest, cheapest, and most effective this is just a roadworkers reflective vest, cheap, from Home Depot or someplace. You can wear it with anything you already have, stuff it in the bottom of a pack so your are never caught without. No batteries, always works. Get a mesh one and you can wear it in the summer without a shirt and look like a Village Person.

Yeah Stu. That's what I'm saying. I wear a lot of black. And I'm black. My bike is black and even my accessories on the bike are black (this is just the way things happened BTW, I prefer lighter color bikes, but this bike was only available in black)... And I ride at night a lot. I can change my color much, but I can change my clothing color.

As for your son: I don't know how old he is, but I've seen teens respond to Monkeylectric lights pretty well. It doesn't exactly fit the legal requirement, but better than nothing. I liked them. (Still do...)

Get a mesh one and you can wear it in the summer without a shirt and look like a Village Person.

Sold! haha...

stu, you could install lit pedals on his bike - dynamo powered, not able to be turned off or forgotten or lost and no battery to die. That's why I got them. They're not a substitute for good blinkies, but they're something more shimmery than nothing.

They're also expensive. But I did find that ordering them through DH's resulted in a significantly lower price than I could find online. http://www.pedalite.com/home.aspx (annoying gifs, but lots of cool products)

Stu, you might have more luck with something reflective rather than battery. This Reflectiglow company sells things billed for motorcycles, but has images that might appeal to the youth. http://www.reflectiglow.com/catalog/specials.php?page=4



Or get him a few sheets of 3M reflective adhesive sheet and tell him to go nuts.

I've been looking for black 3M tape everywhere!!! Has anyone seen any before I finally just order online?

ETA: as in reflective black.

Nick D?

Thanks for the tips. Myself, I have my trusty orange vest, which shows up well in dim or dark. Didn't we have a thread a while back suggesting if someone worked in a company or township sign-making department, they could get their hands on all manner of scrap in various road sign colors? That'd be just dandy.

btw, Gabe is 22. I don't think he's trying to be a ninja, sometimes he just doesn't think. Lights come off to replace batteries and don't get put back on, little stuff like that.

Here's my vest on the first Flock ride last May. (photo credit robjdlc)

Yeah... 22 was a crazy year for me, so I understand. haha...

I see you're riding with my partner in hoop there. I need to check this Flock thing out.

*Get a mesh one and you can wear it in the summer without a shirt and look like a Village Person*

Edmonds, you talkin to me?

http://www.amazon.com/3M-79942-Scotchlite-Reflective-Striping/dp/B0010ASWF4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1316271533&sr=8-2

@Humble - You should try to make it in for the mega Flock this Friday (the 23rd).

@rzod: I should be able to make it Friday.

$45 for tape. Oh my God! That's a DIY-person's nightmare.

non-black is cheaper.

Oh no, it HAS to be black... haha... I don't know. I did happen to find a kit online that fits my purpose. Just someone who take the tape and cuts what most people need. http://www.brightthread.com/

The city of Pittsburgh makes road signs, and so does the County. If you could figure out where their sign shop is (I want to say strip district), they probably put enough scraps of reflective material in the trash to do dozens of bikes.

I just got a new Lab Safety Supply catalog in the mail. They have a ton of safety vests at all different prices - we're talkin' <$7 to >$100.

And, the ultimate gnat- and rain-avoidance unit!

That's for when you ride your bike to the meth lab.

If you're doing meth, you probably sold your bike long ago.

Then again, if you're doing meth, a walk to Nebraska would probably seem normal.

humblesage, if all else fails, maybe silver, the brighter version of black, might do? It's easier to find reflective silver stuff than reflective black stuff, and it's in the same monochromatic family (achromatic?). I look forward to seeing the results

I would love to cut my own pinstripes and designs in silver. Maybe that's what I'll do.

FYI, $45 is for 1" tape. It's cheaper if you go with 1/2" or 1/8". (The 1/8" is the same price as every other color.)

^ Cool. That's a good bit of info to have.