BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Thanks for sharing that Sara! I would pick these:

Not sharing the road with Trucks!

More bike lanes

Completely separated off-road cycling paths

Better connectivity/more direct routes

Wider lanes on the roads

More bike racks everywhere

Secure bike parking

Reduced traffic speeds/cars

More security and safety for cyclists

Better lighting along routes

More people cycling

Cycling with a buddy more often

Organized social cycling events

Increased levels of other women cycling

Friendlier bike shop employees

Completely separated off-road cycling paths

Better connectivity/more direct routes

What people say is often not descriptive or predictive of what they do.

Particularly when there may be an element of shame involved.

And that survey was pretty seriously flawed to begin with. I don't know why the APBP isn't willing to pay a professional to design high-quality studies. I'm sure they could afford to, so I have to assume it's either because they don't care, or else this is really what they intended. Both are disappointing.

Interesting reading. Thanks.

I realized recently that I rarely ride with other women. In fact, it's hard to convince girlfriends (those who do not already consider themselves cyclists) to ride with me.

Anecdotally, I would say their primary objection is traffic. The survey results appear to support that, with "more bike lanes" and "separated bike lanes" topping the list of things that would make women bike more.

I'd be interested to know how men would respond to that same list of options.

I think we as a community can help women become more comfortable riding among the cars, probably through group rides, bikepooling and coaching. It takes a lot of practice to become comfortable taking the lane.

@Mary - I believe I read somewhere that the fatality rate for female cyclists in London is higher than that for male cyclists, and timidity was suggested as an explanation. It seems that women have been getting left-hooked (right-hooked here) by trucks at intersections, likely because they are hugging the curb (or kerb, as the case may be).

I'll see if I can dig up that stat.

@Lyle- "What people say is often not descriptive or predictive of what they do."

That pretty much sums up my first thought about it. So, it's nice to get input and they are all concerns, but I wouldn't put much weight on the results.

In my opinion- Women have to see biking as something doable that can fit into their daily lives. Getting to that is a combination of many of the factors. They kind of all need to be addressed together.

Interesting. Very, very few of my friends are willing to ride a bike on the street, and their objection, male or female, is always the traffic. I wish I could convince people, particularly women, that traffic is really only SO intimidating at first, and that you get used to it. Traffic only affects my plans when I can't figure out how to get somewhere on smaller streets (read: streets with a low-ish speed limit). The only deterrents for me are hills/hot weather. I hate (as I imagine most do) arriving somewhere really sweaty.

oh my, and the demographics aren't representative of the general population. Unless of course they are only trying to get educated white women riding bikes. I'd like to see some real research and figure out how to get poorer people and more minorities out riding. There's a huge image barrier there and no one is really addressing it.

I also wish I could convince people how much fun it is to use a bike as transportation! Nothing beats a ride home after a stressful day at work. Standing at the bus stop or sitting in traffic offer no comparison.

I'd like to see some real research and figure out how to get poorer people and more minorities out riding.

PAT's working on it.

The majority of those lists seem to be completely gender neutral, and, well, duh.

For some reason, it really bugs me that "more women cycling", "more people cycling", "friendlier bike shop employees" and "more fashionable" are on there. Medium strength rant follows:

"more women cycling" and "more people cycling"... Then. Get. Off. Your. Computer. And. Get. On. A. Bike. There, that's one more. Next?

"friendlier bike shop employees"... what, so you don't buy groceries or eat food if the checkout girl has an attitude? A waiter sneers at you so you starve to death? Sometimes people are jerks - get over it, get on with your life, and get on a bike.

"more fashionable"... I know 12 year old girls like this, but no adults who admit in public to thoughts like this concerning activities (sweaters, maybe, modes of transport, no). At some point most people develop their own spines and do what they want anyway. I may be wrong, but I'm thinking either these respondants are immature or never have any intention of ever getting on a bicycle. The former, just wait. The latter are irrelevant (or potential Hipsters).

Get more PEOPLE on bicycles, women will catch up. I'm amazed "get my husband to cook and clean more so I have time" wasn't on there, but maybe I need to be recalibrated on that idea (for the record, my husband is AWESOME around the house, but that's how come I have the time to ride).

Simply put: Fear of traffic.

I think it starts out with not knowing how to cross a street as children. Seeing a car coming down the street, over a tenth of a mile away, kids are told to wait until the car goes by, even if that car won't get to you for almost 10 seconds. Nowhere is anyone shown how to cross a busy street, where you won't ever get a long break in traffic.

Even where signals exist, the ped crossing phase is far too often accompanied by allowing cars coming up behind you from the left to make a right turn right into you. Assuming you live through it, you become scared to death of shoe leather ever touching asphalt.

All of this translates directly to fear of actually getting right out there in traffic with those cars.

I grew up on a county road with a 55 mph speed limit. All visiting neighbors, all waiting for the school bus, all trips by bicycle, all the practicing the unicycle holding onto the mailbox, were dealing with the frequent speeding traffic. I learned not to be afraid of it.

So: Show your small children how not to die while crossing a busy, four-lane street, and in a few years you'll have cyclists, both genders, in quantity.

I think "more fashionable" is a misnomer. I can pick up 4 current magazines or cataloges right now that have bicycles in the shoot. Bikes are fashionable. But you know what's not? Showing up to lunch with friends in spandex or the opposite- showing up in a skirt and heels to be met with disbelief. "you BIKED here?? wearing that?!" This part doesn't bother me so much, but I can easily see how it could bother other people.

I had to laugh at what ejwme said above about cranky checkout people not keeping us from buying groceries. I totally agree, however I did have an experience annoying enough at the bike shop closest to my home that I have vowed to travel out of my way to the shop considerably further away. It wasn't just about them not being "nice", but about being badgered.

id really love it if i didnt get sweaty.

The US Census' American Community Survey came out today. http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DatasetMainPageServlet?_program=ACS&_submenuId=&_lang=en&_ds_name=ACS_2009_1YR_G00_&ts=

Good news is that PGH's bicycle commuter rate went up to 1.4% from .8%.

Bad news is that the breakdown between male and female cyclists widened, ie more men got into cycling to work than women.

2009: 2.2% male, .5% female

2008: 1.2% male, .4% female

remember. This is an estimate on Pittsburgh resident workers and how they get to work

Not to be snide, but most people deal with rude checkout clerks because they have no choice.

With an "elective" activity like biking, potential newbies can just decide it was a bad idea and walk away and collect stamps or something instead.

The M/F gap widened, but both increased slightly, so I see that glass as 1.4% full, not 98.6% empty.

re: "Increased levels of other women cycling"

Is that whole event to get dudes riding in bridesmaid dresses just some kind of decoy thing?

Actually, I suspect "increased levels of women cycling" would also result in increased levels of *ahem* young and single men cycling.

And, assuming the usual desperate-dude-to-chick ratio seen in most bars applies, you'll thusly always see a greater increase in the number of men cycling.

It's okay, it's just biology.

I read the paper over lunch.

The survey itself didn't have all I would have wanted, but with 11,000+ respondents it has a certain power. It can give a snapshot of the concerns of women cyclists.

The paper itself is a bit weak. With that amany responces there are a lot of differences that are unimportant, but still statistically significant. I dont' think the paper does a good job of figure out where the large improtant difference are.

The fact that 85% of the respondents had either a college degree (45%) or a graduate degree (40%) shows that a self-selecting web survey can have some inherent bias. (I might be misinterpreting here - maybe the 40% with grad degress is included in the 45% with college degrees. The paper is ambiguous about that.)

I'm guessing women with that education in the general population is a minority.

That would mean that the majority of the population of concern is represented by 15% of the respondents.

If it were me, I would want to see how strongly answers correlated with education.

How biased there results are would depend some on how they advertized their survey. "Would you answer some questions about transportation?" would yeild a different sample from "Are you wild about bicycles? Take this survey!"

Examples:

All of the questions are going to vary across ages and places of residents.

One obvious pattern: experienced riders in the city will have "parked cars opening doors" as a concern. Rural beginners probably won't. That result is trivial, but I'm sure other questions would have just as extreme a pattern, but not obvious.

The questions about "What would cause you to start or increase your riding?"

I would be shocked if the 59% that use bikes for daily trips gave similar answers to the 41% who do not use their bikes for daily trips.

This is important. Seeing what the two groups have in common and how they differ woudl be interesting.

They presented their age data in a really odd way. As near as I can tell the median distance ridden on a nice spring day (odd question. Not the same in LA as in Boston, for sure) for different ages

Age

< 20: 16 miles

20-30: 27 miles

31-40: 28 miles

41-50: 33 miles

51-60: 40 miles

61-70: 40 miles

>70: 9 miles

The paper put this is a big obscure table - although it rightly points out that many older women really go a distance, it didn't point out how the median distance keeps rising with age until the women hit 70.

I hope - and imagine- that with that many respondents, there was a more detailed analysis than is given here. Otherwise, there is a lot of information going to waste.

Overall, I also have a concern that they limited this to women. If they were concerned with finding patterns to increasing ridership? They would survey everyone. Ask a question about gender and you can get information specific to women (or specific to men) if you want - adn youcan contrast them.

The paper left me feeling uncomfortable in the middle: are these concerns of all riders? Are they specific women riders? Can't tell.

It felt to me like they weren't being so much inclusive of women as being exclusive of men.

This is going to be my favorite way of looking at bike commuting statistics in the future: "I see that glass as 1.4% full, not 98.6% empty."

Bridesmaid dress ride is not a decoy, just the most fun you will EVER have.

id really love it if i didnt get sweaty.

Hence the concerns about showers and changing facilities at work. Gender is irrelevant on this point; we all sweat when we bike. I keep a change of clothes at work and commute in grubby duds I don't mind sweating in and getting chain grease on.

In my previous job, which had showers, I found it less that I needed a full shower upon arrival, and more just a quick wipedown with a wet paper towel, plus drink a lot of cold water. Whatever works.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle is getting more women to try.

I bike for practical reasons. This survey had nothing about kids I'd guess. Some former stay-at-home-mom observations:

- It's really hard to bike with preschoolers in tow if it's hilly.

- You can't take a trailer on public transit, can you? Probably depends 100% on driver whim.

- trailers only hold 2 kids (who should be at least 1 year old) but then a car that holds 3 carseats has no room left to take a trailer to a rail trail anyway

- if I can talk someone into watching the kids while I do something "for me", there are so many things that come before "ride a bike" starting with really basic stuff that a person takes for granted before turning into mom. Or if not there's always "I had a hard day/week at work and you going biking doesn't sound fun or important to me."

Cheap widespread rental of safe bike trailers at trailheads might get some recreational cycling going. For practical SAHM cycling we need safer roads and either no hills (ha) or some mixed mode options maybe. If I lived in silicon valley maybe going grocery shopping with kids would be as much a option as without.

I completely agree with Tabby about cycling not being fashionable--you can pick up any magazine that has even the smallest amount of focus on style, and I would bet there is at least one ad with a bike in it.

I recently had a conversation with an old friend who I hadn't seen in a while. She was moving to the city and we were talking about bikes. She had much of the same concerns (she is a young, educated, professional, white woman). We talked a little, and then I told her about Cycle Chic--after a little time on the website, she was excited to move so she could start riding to work.

Also, I think a lot of these issues are gender neutral. I think there is a bigger issue at hand--a matter of women having the confidence to do things on there own.

Maybe I am just surrounded by strong women, but I don't see any reason why women can't do what men can (with a few obvious exceptions*). Far too often do I hear things like something is good "for a girl," or, "but I'm a girl".

I may be wrong, but I don't know of many activities that women have heavy presence in.

Of the women I know who ride, most of them are somewhat similar in personality--self-starters, strong, independent, diyers... all of who are also active in some other type of activity.

With that said, I think going after getting more woman (specifically) to ride, is the wrong way to go. There are many men that have all the same concerns, reasons, and fears not to cycles.

In my personal experience, the best way to get someone interested in cycling is to take them on a scenic casual ride. Initially, most adults will enjoy the nostalgia of riding and happy childhood memories. Then, after you talk about how much fun you have, how much gas you save, how good it feels, the great shape you are in, etc, they are hooked.

Cycling can have a relatively high cost of entry--how many kayakers do you know who bought a boat without renting/borrowing on first?

*Slightly related: I knew a girl in high school would could use a urinal.

"*Slightly related: I knew a girl in high school would could use a urinal. "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hLUNYIoOE0

Unless of course they are only trying to get educated white women riding bikes.

I am, of course, in favor of all kinds of diversity. But it occurs to me that in early 21st-century America, what rich white people want, they generally seem to get. So if rich white people all of a sudden decided that they want bike lanes and more convenient bike commuting options (parking, shower facilites) and all the other things on the list, it's not crazy to imagine that those amenities might be forthcoming. Does anyone suspect that these things on the list would not also be enticing to poor and minority cyclists? If the symbol of having "made it" in society is no longer a couple fancy cars in the driveway of a suburban mini-mansion, would people's aspirations still tend towards that goal?

Recognizing that we may or may not have any actual studies on the matter, does anyone care to speculate on what ways that low-income or minority women (or men, for that matter) might differ as to effective incentives to get them to ride more?

@ieverhart: I somehow think that what the poor need is not so much "incentives" as simply money.

Buying and maintaining a bike is not that cheap for someone who's actually poor. And if you're poor you end up living pretty far out, where the rents are cheap. So your commute is non-trivial.

[Although I'm pretty comfortable at this point in my life, this was not always the case. At an earlier point I had to save up for whole damn year to have enough money to buy a bike for commuting. Today it's a choice; I suspect this is the case for most of us on this bboard.]

Also, I would say, don't wait around for some vague infrastructure improvements to magically convert more people to cyclists. Keep your ears open and if you hear a friend, acquaintance or co-worker express the slightest interest in trying biking, jump on it, offer to advise them, tell them where they can rent a bike to try it, take them out for a ride on a trail. You can't go out and build a bike lane by yourself, really, but you can make more cyclists, one at a time.

In the past 15 years, I think I can claim 3 successful newbie conversions to riders, one of which has been passed on to a wife and child, 1 strong unconfirmed maybe, 1 very strong re-entry rider which passed on to 2 children.

Right now I know a recently separated woman who I am gently trying to connect with another divorced woman who enjoys rail-trail riding. I have this strange vision of some kind of Freewomen's riding club, this one woman has recently separated from a human sac-of-crap, her son just went off to college, I would LOVE to see her start biking, it can't be an uncommon story.

"what rich [white] people want, they generally get."

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point of being rich. If it didn't get you what you want, who would want to be rich?

what edmonds said.

six years ago I had a 4.7 mile commute that took me 30 minutes by car, no matter how I sliced it. I also had a coworker who was an avid cyclist and triathelete. I asked him about biking to work, and if he thought I could do it (Penn Hills to Wilkins Twp - so doable it's not funny). His response? "Only if you want to get killed within a month. Between the roads and drivers, that's a death sentence. But sure, do it if you want."

Kept me off a bike for 4 years, until I decided that some people, who otherwise appear smart and authoritative actually have confused their bums for their brains and are thinking and speaking using the wrong one.

By then I had a ~30 mile commute, and y'all know the rest of the story.

That's why I try and engage the "you're crazy" people. In the very least, the next time they talk to a "do you think I could..." or "I was thinking of trying..." they may respond with "you'll get killed" but maybe they'll add "I know this crazy chick who does something similar..." You never know what connections will be made.

@ejwme I have a friend who lives not too far from me who does several tri's a year and is constantly training. I've never ridden with him because he refuses to bike in the city or at night. Too dangerious! He puts his bike on the back of the car, drives "out in the country" and bikes there. I know triatheletes are not normal people, but what's up with that?

I could see a tri trainer not wanting to bike in the city - the stoplights and stop signs and traffic would get in their way of going fast and far and not having to stop. It's the reason I preferred jogging on side streets or parks and not where there's a lot of traffic lights.

But you're right Marko, it makes as much sense as that freakish exurban opinion that I've heard several times - driving in the city is not safe. I'm pretty sure when related to vehicle population, it's a lot safer, be it vehicles with motors or pedals (or both).

Plenty of cyclists that have racked up hundreds of miles a year put their bikes on backs of cars and drive "out to the country." They do it for many varied reasons; they may feel safer, they make like the scenery more, they may like being able to cycle for miles without having a stop light or stop sign, they may like the varied terrain. Whatever their reason, that doesn't make them any more or less of a cyclist than the people who commute on bikes or make the decision to ride from their homes into the cities. In addition, the type of bikes we ride and what those bikes cost; touring, tri, single speeds, road, mtn, doesn’t put us at a higher or lower “level” in the social scene as one another – our attitudes do. If you are judging another cyclist by their clothes, bikes, socio-economic background or where they choose to ride then you may want to look in a mirror.

As a woman, if I had visited these boards when I first began cycling I would have instantly judged the entire cycling community of Pittsburgh by the majority of the opinions that are expressed here. Luckily I never knew about the Bike Pittsburgh Forums until later, after I had met many cyclists riding different types of bikes, wearing different cycling gear, from a varied range of socio-economic backgrounds. These forums have taught me that there is an elitist group of cyclists out there and that bike snobbery towards the people who want to ride, no matter where, what type of bike or wearing what gear, really does exist.

the regular posters here are one of the most diverse groups of cyclists i know of when judging on the criteria you set forth, yet we all seem to get along just fine. we have everyone from pro racers to a self described "giant fat guy on a big orange bike" who just started riding again this year. everything from multimodal commuter moms with folding bikes to bat-shit crazy downhillers covered in tattoos. people that haven't owned a car in 30 years and people who make a living in the auto industry. i could go on and on. the one thing we all definitely have in common is cycling (that and a sense of humor) so i'm not exactly sure where you are getting this elite cadre of cyclists who all conform to exactly one standard and hate everyone else crap from. you should maybe join a flock of cycles ride sometime to get an idea of what this forum community is really like, instead of joining to spew bile and venom and then be outraged (and validated in your own mind) by the responses you will get from it.

I came to bicycling from a simple thought: Cars are bad technology.

Cars kill people, they wreck the environment, and the lust for car fuel taints world politics.

I oppose the embrace of car use as somehow normal and proper. Car use is not morally neutral in today's world.

Am I on the same social level as people who chose to own a car?

In some ways, yes. In other ways - ways that I feel are important- I am not.

For my part, I've always found this forum a pretty easy place to be the slow, dorky rider that I am.

sorry the board has rubbed you the wrong way, snail. I personally have found it to be very inclusive and have enjoyed meeting people in real life at rides such as Flock of Cycles. there really are all kinds of riders here, even if it does seem that the city commuters are the ones who speak up the most.

glad you are enjoying cycling and have found a what sounds like a nice group of people to share the experience with.

cburch, if you had viewed my join date you would have seen that I didn't join this board to "spew bile and venom." I joined this board when Don Parker was killed - you can go back through my very limited posting history to see this.

The topic of this post was how to get more women into cycling. I posted my thoughts on the matter and how it relates to this board, if anyone views that as spewing venom and bile then so be it.

Outraged? No, sorry.

@snail: In what manner would you suggest this board should change, in order to better encourage women to cycle?

I ask because your prior post did not include any specifics on what you dislike; general negative impressions are difficult to correct, but positive suggestions can be discussed and implemented.

I, too, am surprised to hear that someone has found this board elitist or snobbish; while we certainly have a diverse range of opinions, priorities, and profiles, I have not noted much in the way of exclusivity here.

Seems like marko's comment was directed at a specific person, who he knows personally, who has decided to narrow their personal view of riding to the very narrow scope of "tri-training", and refuses to consider the possible advantages of other forms of cycling, so that person gets a poke and a chuckle.

Not sure what it was that elicited the vociferous accusations of elitism and snobbery, I think it was just making fun of someone, which I wholeheartedly endorse. Vigorously defending people who put bikes on their cars to go ride in the country? Uh, Ok.

I gotta say I disagree with snail on this one. when I first started cycling years ago I purposely did not get involved with the pittsburgh cycling community because I figured that they were a bunch of lycra wearing elitists.

I'll admit when I first got involved in the forums I came in with a chip on my shoulder.

I was wrong.

what I found was a great bunch of people. Some of whom I have had the privileged of riding with, and would ride with again (anytime they dont mind going slow enough for me to keep up)

Some of whom I have verbally sparred with here on the forums. there have been times when I have had to apologize for what I said.

You are going to find elitist people everywhere, it has nothing to do with socio-economic backgrounds, it has nothing to cycling.

all of the forums I have been a part of

cycling

music

podcasting

photography

writing

I could point to posts in each that say it isnt really (insert name of action) unless you use (insert name of product)

You're not cycling unless you have a carbon fiber bike.

You're not a guitarist unless you play a gibson

Unless you Use a condensor mic there is no reason to record your podcast

if it isnt on FILM it isnt photography

if all youre writing is sci-fi fantasy then all you are doing is wasting time.

The trick is to learn to ignore those kinds of comments and learn to appreciate the comments from those who have a true passion.

>Vigorously defending people who put bikes on their cars to go ride in the country? Uh, Ok.

Which takes us back to the OP's question:

What would cause you to start or increase your cycling (check all that apply)?

Has anyone learned anything from these past 40+ posts? Apparently not. Because someone who doesn't ride might conclude that you can't just simply put your bike on your car to go for a d@mn ride w/out someone commenting on it. Drivers and cyclists alike.

"Vigorously defending people who put bikes on their cars to go ride in the country? Uh, Ok."

I was operating under the assumption of that being the default position of the average American, if that helps, that you can't just take your bike out of your house and ride down the street. That's the funny part.

I've been trying to get the females in my own family to ride more. I live a ways out in the 'burbs, at the bottom of a hill, wedged between two busy roads designed exclusively for cars.

Wife is almost never on a bike. None fit, and there isn't space in her life to put one.

Daughter rides every once in a while (was even on the June Flock ride), but all her friends are even farther into the 'burbs, and/or their parents won't dare let them on a bike at 17 any more than they let them ride at 7. (e.g., "Stay in the driveway, dear." Uh-huh, right.) Since she got her driver's license in August, I don't think I've seen her on a bike twice.

It's societal (land use planning, traffic law enforcement, etc.), but also individual (fear, whether justified or imagined). For either, there are no easy answers.

In my experience, cycling is one of the "gateway sports" for women. (Swimming is another.) Also for people of any gender who never considered themselves athletes. So I think this is a really important thing to continue to work on.

Lots of "non-cyclists" already have bikes, or can borrow one easily. They already have all the skills they need to get out and ride, since most kids learn to ride bikes. Then they find out they like it, or that it's good for them, or that they can accomplish a lot more than they thought. The more they get themselves off the couch and onto a road or trail, the more confident they become and more willing to try other things, whether it's riding in traffic or bike touring or a triathlon or even completely unrelated sports.

I think it's important for people to have that feeling that comes from athletic accomplishment. Pride, confidence, a feeling of empowerment. Cycling is one of the few sports that you don't have to be any "good at" in order to get that feeling - you don't need a team, and nobody asks about your time when you tell them you finished your first metric century ride.

Now, ON AVERAGE:

- Women tend to be more risk-averse than men.

- Girls spend less of their time throwing their bodies around in space than boys.

- Women worry more than men do about social acceptability and inconveniencing others.

For cycling, this translates into people being uncomfortable riding in traffic, aversion to mountain biking (at one point 70% of the women in my social circle were road riders who'd tried off-road once and decided it wasn't for them, but all the men did both), feeling that they shouldn't ride if they're not good at it, and being easily discouraged when they hear negative things from apparently experienced cyclists (like ejwme's story).

On the plus side,

- Women tend to be more patient than men.

- Women tend to have strong legs and good endurance.

So there's potentially a big payoff just around the bend when a woman gets interested in cycling.

I've spent a big part of my life thinking about questions like this. I've been a feminist since childhood but an athlete only half my life (which means more than 20 years now). I like mountain biking but I'm pretty bad at it (this holds true for me with most sports, at least for the first 10 years) and I continuously struggle with fear and feelings that I'm holding the group back. I wish I had learned more physical skills when I was a kid and was less aware of consequences - I'm sure girls today are doing better, since I know that more and more girls are involved in sports these days.

So, yes, this is important, and it's not just about women. It's about those computer geeks who never learned to throw a football and people who think they're too fat to feel comfortable at a gym but have their kid's old bike in the garage. I see them on the rec trails, and after a few weeks they're not weaving all over the road, and after a few more weeks they're doing the family fun ride or a Tour de Cure, and all the time they're learning that they are strong and competent and can do anything they put their minds to. That's awesome, and we all need to think about how we can help people have that experience.

snail, and anyone else who's taken umbridge at the Cyclists Who Normally Drive Far Away To Ride comments by me and others - in the past I've probably made comments that I don't think much of that habit. I don't, though for uninterrupted distance I can understand it. But that doesn't make them more or less a cyclist. Cyclists come in all flavors, about which everyone is allowed their opinions. This board is full of Lycra-ites and Hippies and Everyone Inbetween all arguing and agreeing all the time - gender has little to do with it either, not sure why being a woman would be a special reason to be put off this board. But I'm an a-typical woman, I admit it, so maybe I'm missing the undertone.

What really twists my undies though is when people who drive out to the boonies to ride their bikes "where it is safe" discourage others from anything else because "it's suicide". They are flat out wrong, perpetuating a personally comforting myth that keeps people like me (who hate driving anywhere for any reason) and others (who just don't want to die for a hobby) from getting on a bike because a supposed "expert" has trouble incorporating statistics into their life and perceiving that there are other options in life.

It's not their bag, they think it's dangerous, fine, express it and back it up all you want. But at that point in the conversation, to be of use as a helpful expert or just a nice person, they need to point people here, or to an acquaintence, or in whatever direction will get them a second opinion, because LOTS of people do it safely and successfully. THAT is my issue. My issue is with exurban tri lycra people who have a mental block about urban or suburban cycling, but they're on a bike and think it's the only way to go, discouraging anything else as not cycling or deathwish. I'm not saying they have to agree with me, just acknowledge, as I do them, that they exist in happy, healthy quantity.

Oi.

And also - ++++ what ErinK said, all of it, spot on and well put.

Sometimes, I think it's also about the bike itself. There are tons of disused bicycles available to most anyone who wants one, but despite their mechanical simplicity that pile of neglected metal and rubber can be an additional barrier.

If no one is there to say, "Bring it over and I'll get it tuned up for you" when, in casual conversation, someone who's bike-curious, first offers up, "I have my/an old bike in my basement, but I don't think it works" we lose a chance to overcome all the other obstacles discussed here.

So, if you've got some fixing skills, some tools, and maybe a stand, don't let an opportunity to help someone who doesn't, keep them from riding.

+ 1 Dooftram.

I think type/ style/ size of bicycle is a major factor as well. I'm just five feet tall and so finding a bicycle in my size has proven EXTREMELY difficult over the years. I ride a 43-44cm and not many companies make bikes for people that compact.

Sure I can find some things, but finding a bike that suits my needs is really hard. And I've had no less than five bike shop employees recommend that I just get a kids bike or a BMX. NO!

I don't like riding a bike with a straight top tube. I like to mount my bike without flashing anyone and I wear dresses and skirts and I'm not going to change my wardrobe for my transportation, I change my transportation to suit me.

I finally found a lovely mixte bike last month that fits me (my last mixte was hit by an uninsured driver.. and then stolen!) and I'm swooningly happy with it. But finding bikes that FIT is difficult and also could be a deterrent. I was not going to ever stop searching until I found a bike that fit me but I'm sure there a lot of women who are in a similar situation as me and may lose interest when faced with condescending attitudes and ill-fitting bicycles.

Lolly, your comment gets at just how difficult it is for bike shops to make headway here. I had the opposite problem, going bike shopping all the women's bikes were too small for me to test ride. Obviously I wasn't going to special order a bike I hadn't ridden, so it was very frustrating for me as well. I feel for the shop owners who have to make choices on the sizes and styles of bikes to occupy valuable square footage.

"condescending attitudes and ill-fitting bicycles"

Limited inventory for an LBS is kind of understandable but the attitude and ignorance is not. Real help finding a bicycle happens best outside retail land.

I think it was Sitting Bull that said, "The white man can make anything, but he does not know how to distribute it." Still applies, metaphorically or otherwise.

For the record, I was recommended by bike shops in DC to get a BMX / kids bike, not Pittsburgh.

Lolly, I'm totally enjoying imagining you riding around in your cute outfits on a little BMX bike. Ha!

Ha! I should probably get one of those awesome running bikes that the kid is riding from the other threads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga72-ASP1uM. Love it.

Wow. Sorry for sounding elitist. I’m going to take my 17 year old bike, blinkies, bags, sound system, neon shirts and go stand in the corner. ;(

Initially when I was shopping, I would go in to bike shops (tried 4, different style shops in different areas) to ask what they had for commuters. My wish list was step-through, lots of gears, something to protect my pants/skirts, fenders, upright-ish, lots of rack/cargo potential without sacrificing lighting options, disk brakes, very light weight (and while I was shooting for the moon, folding as well). I learned that much of that is contradictory, or that I could have most all of it for a ridiculous amount of money after a few months of custom building. I refocused on fit and STILL had a time of it with my incredibly average sized self (bought a mens bike, I'm pretty sure) and incredibly patient bike shop attendants (Shameless Dirty Harry's Plug Here).

Maybe rather than (or in addition to) educating the general public on how not to hit cyclists when they're out driving, it might be worth it to educate the general public on how to become a cyclist at all (of any flavor). There'd be more varied demand for bikes that fit, bikes that fit women, and maybe more women cyclists too. Bonus - maybe some of those people who also drive would be a little more cautious as well.

Some new converts might then find other ways to ride just by exposure to being on two wheels - downhill people might hop on to enjoy the sunshine in their neighborhoods for a few minutes, commuters might try their hand at a tri, a road racer might borrow a trailer and take their kid shopping.

Thus there'd be more people out on bikes, more people out on the roads, more people asking for infrastructure, more people driving around that understand we don't like being buzzed.

There's a football team at every school, but most people don't play football after school. Are there cycling teams at schools? I've only ever heard of them at expensive boarding prep schools (Exeter & like). Even clubs could help.

I guess I mean "outreach".

I think the the most effective method is a person to person interaction. We, as cyclists, need to act as ambassadors for non-cyclists. We need to educate ourselves so we can educate others, and we need to offer assistance before it is ever requested.

You want more people to ride bikes? Talk to the people around you and get them on bikes--your odds of getting a friend or aquintance on a bike by offering to ride with them is much higher than your odds of getting the same person to ride by petitioning to get bike lanes (but I'm not saying that the later isn't just as important).

(Also, I have to agree that this board is extremely diverse (socio-economically) and some how we manage to all get together great--bikes bring people together. I also passionately feel that there is no group of people more welcoming and willing to help than the people on this board.)

@ejwme I think finding bikes that fit is even more hopelessly hard than finding bras that fit (insert canonical wrong size bra statistics here.)

Lolly -

What bikeshop was it in DC? That one in Adams Morgan off of Columbia?

@ErinK says: Now, ON AVERAGE:

- Women tend to be more risk-averse than men.

- Girls spend less of their time throwing their bodies around in space than boys.

- Women worry more than men do about social acceptability and inconveniencing others.

I think all really depends on what you're doing. For example in another corner of my life I do social dance (I even teach it). In that sphere your list exactly describes most men. Way fewer women have those issues.

It might be that you can go out and bike without necessarily directly interacting with other people that makes it more accessible to men. Or maybe it's because it's just conventionally "athletic" and guys are supposed to be athletic. I don't know.

In any case, once you're out on the road, it's a matter of perseverance: you both have to get in shape so that you can actually move yourself and you have to develop the confidence to mingle with the cars. I'm not sure that there's an intrinsic sex difference in the ability to tackle this challenge.

oh sprite - you are so correct. So maddeningly, hair pullingly, frustratingly correct!

@Noah, that was one of the places. City Bikes. But it really depends on the person because another person at that shop spent 1.5 hours (!) with me pouring over things. Which was awesome. But then he gave me his phone number ... I did end up buying my bike from them anyway. Sometimes there are uninformed people that work in the same shop as really awesome and helpful other people.

(1) Make the roads safer. Give bikes a place on the road.

(2) Have more bike shops like Dirty Harry's, Thick Bikes, and Iron City where we are treated like normal folks looking for a bike...i.e. with respect.

(3) Have bike manufacturers understand that women's specific bikes still aren't good enough. I.e., I'm 5'9 and most women's bikes are too small, indicating to me that there is still some room for improvement.

well, this is probably an issue that's specific to me, because I'm not in shape at all - but I don't ride up the hills, because I sometimes have asthma attacks, which I get really self-conscious about. maybe if there were some kind of training rides for hills, I'd go more places. I can't say for sure, but I think I'd be into that.

I really like the Bike Commuting 101 zine that Bike PGH puts out. That and the map (and the marked uptick in bikes on the road in PGH since I bought mine ~ 9 yrs ago) really helped motivate me to start commuting this year.

I think showing additional female-specific info (or having a version for females) would be helpful. True, not all females have the same needs/fears, etc, but it would be GREAT to have sections on evasion tactics, personal safety at night, [sorry guys] tips for issues that come up w/ menstruation, logistics & etiquette of changing at work if there is little privacy or a non-clean bathroom.

I am a semi-frequent overseas flier and have found lots of good tips for packing light, cleaning up after a 12 hr flight &tc...but not too much for female cyclists yet.

RF:

I'll do some hill-climbing practice with you if you want. I'm not a personal trainer or anything (and not a medical professional, so you'd have to assess any risk the asthma might present yourself) but if our schedules have any common openings, we could pick out some hills you're up for trying and give them a shot.

I'm going to be away from the computer for a while, but pm me and I'll send you my contact info by tomorrow morning.

Thanks, I will!

Having that third ring would make any hills easier. So maybe a requirement for any woman who has significant hills to surmount, asthma or not, is to have three rings in front, regardless of how many it's equipped with in the back.

I think another part of the problem is that I don't use the front rings properly - most bikes I've had, including this one, they take a while to switch into the gear I want, if at all. This one does, but it takes quite a while to get there.

Building on what RF said...

I started off biking assuming that if the bike could obey my command, then I was doing appropriate things with it. Then I was told that using the largest diameter front gear and the largest diameter back gear (or smallest and smallest) is not so great for the chain (cross chaining? I don't remember - no 3-1 and no 1-8 for me basically). The person that told me this is an adored relative, even if it weren't true I'd do it just 'cause.

But it does make me wonder what else I'm missing, if anything. I was told by the same relative to subscribe to cycling magazines - I just don't do magazines. I was also told to go on group rides, which I've done, but nobody's pointed out "ohmygod you're going to destroy your Whatzit if you keep that up" so maybe I've not missed anything else or people are just being polite or think I wouldn't take the advice. I don't know.

At this point, I'm too far in, too tired to wonder, and have faith in Dirty Harry's to fix it if I break it, but I'm sure there are plenty of other women out there who could use a riding course structured to be female friendly, non-judgey, and non-meatmarket (typical things that turn women away from perceived "men's" activities). Maybe men could benefit from that kind of course too, I don't know. I don't even know what it would consist of, other than how to ride hills, how to shift appropriately, how to stop appropriately, how to load up a bike with cargo for easiest handling, when to take the lane and when to gutter, etc.

Could be combined workshop and informative ride. Not to give totally new people the impression that there's this huge long list of do's and don'ts, but maybe give us sophmores a bit more of a clue.

or people are just being polite or think I wouldn't take the advice.

I avoid giving advice on rides because people often respond poorly to unsolicited advice. It's just not worth the risk to me of getting snapped at.

If I do give advice, it's usually limited to one tip per group. On the other hand, I'm sure if someone said "I'm know I'm not using my gears effectively, can you tell me anything that will help?", I'd be happy to do so.

The risk for the novice in asking is that she is bound to find someone who thinks they know what they're talking about, but is mistaken

i think ejwme just hit the nail on the head. imagine how much more confident ANY beginning rider would be with a little proper instruction and help with the basics to go along with the encouragement. i think this would be an excellent thing for bike pittsburgh to do a few times a year. but ESPECIALLY in the early to mid spring. i think waiting till bikefest risks losing a lot of people who will have given up on the idea by then.

Hey EJWME, let's talk about this, I was working on something like this a couple of months ago but it got pushed to the back burner.

And I could use it too because I don't know ANYTHING technical. I think I'm totally happy with how my 8speed internal hub is for getting up hills and I don't want to mess with the magic.

I'm in Lolly - but I don't know what I don't know

I wear dresses and skirts and I'm not going to change my wardrobe for my transportation

amen.

Hey smaller ladies, there is a guy that's been trying to get rid of a really small road frame from time to time on craigslist. Keep checking there, I forget the exact frame size but it's for someone between 4'8 and 5'ish. I will post it if I see it

any idea on approximate price? I know a couple of tiny girls who might let me talk them into buying it if the price is right.

Yeah, I know someone who might be interested as well.

I have a small but extremely heavy C.Itoh bicycle that is suitable for someone that is 5' or smaller if someone is looking for something like that. It is pretty not-wonderful though.

ejwme:

I agree with what your adored relative said - either of those positions is going to run the chain diagonally, putting too much tension on it. On top of that, you don't really need those extreme combinations. By the time you get to 1-8, 2-1 will do you just fine. And 2-8 gets you past the point where you need 3-1. There's generally a fair bit of overlap in what the gear combinations do for you. (meaning it's not 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, 2-1, 2-2... in that order.)

I'd actually avoid the next-to-most-extreme positions. By the time you're thinking about going to 1-7, I'd go into 2. (maybe even iterate this idea one more time.) similarly, I wouldn't use the big ring in front with any of the 2 or 3 easier gears in back. So mainly using the easy (little) ring in front when you want to go as easy as possible on yourself, using the big ring in front when you want to be in the other extreme, and middle ring in front (with the full range of gears in back) for everything in between.

@ ejwme I was told by the same relative to subscribe to cycling magazines

What he said about chain rings was good advice.

On the other hand, I got a "Bicycling" magazine and there were 11 pages of car ads in it.

Urban Velo seems pretty cool though.

The final word is usually

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears.html

The answer to RF's shifting problems is in there too.

I think the small roadbike was around 50 or 75 usd

i havent read this whole thing but if you want to CELEBRATE WOMEN ON BIKES you can come to the Babes on Bikes Dance Party tonight at Belvederes!

At the Portland presentation in the library the other night, the adult gender breakdown (I may ahve missed a few who slipped in and out when I was focused up front) was 26 women and 31 men.