BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Er, yeah, that was weird. At 7 pm, the barriers were actually placed in a way that made it seem like you weren't supposed to be hugging the wall along 2d Ave coming from jail trail, which I guess makes sense since there was no longer a separation between the trail and the road. But this means you have to make a left onto Second Ave, which I'm fine doing in low traffic, but which can be a long wait at busy times. In fact, I had to wait quite a while tonight, which surprised me since I though I had missed rush hour.

Is this related to the work being done on the Bates Ave. bridge? Any idea what the solution is here, for bikes coming from downtown and trying to get to Junction Hollow? That left turn onto Second Ave is a pain.

I read here about some secret illegal jumping over train tracks crossing. If someone wants to post a photo of this that would be cool, because I've never actually explored and looked for it.

its really easy, i would recommend it over that horrible section of trail any day... and its faster!

i was going to try to explain it but this map is easier. just go up the gravel ramp and then cruise through the parking lot to the beginning of the trail

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3778426

here's a streetview of the exit onto saline.

Sweet, thanks. I was thinking it was behind that giant building, and never went looking because I figured someone would be yelling at me. I didn't realize its just on the other side of the parking lot. Nice.

>Is this related to the work being done on the Bates Ave. bridge?

Probably this is related to the work being done all along Second Ave. They've been cutting and patching over the past few weeks, working their way outbound. It'll probably be that was for a few more weeks and then be back to normal. They may even clean all the debris that has been years collecting in the "bike lane"

I don't understand why there isn't a real light at that intersection. Murphy gave me some cockamamie story but it sounded like an excuse. The left turn is often fairly hazardous, but traffic was so heavy last night that it was easy, ironically.

Personally, I think and easier fix for this area would be to build a trail that through the short amount of brush at the end of the service road (formerly Swinburne St.) that would connect to Swinburne at the tight bend beneath the Parkway overpass and before its own bridge. You could pair with that a simple switchback that would go down from there to Junction Hollow/Boundary Street. Being a short stretch on this road, it might warrant installing stop signs.

Something like this would actually "legally" bypass the railroad tracks and would be a shorter straight-line distance between the Eliza Furnace Trail and the Junction Hollow Trail by hugging the hillside. Granted, it would be more of a hill climb than we have now, but it could be safer and "potentially" easier, not to mention better access to South Oakland and the upper part of Schenely via Swinburne.

I'd love some kind of legal bypass there. Failing that, a real traffic light would be sweet. Heck, even a 3-way stop would help. I usually ride on second (because I find the chute and the blind turns too tight for comfort riding on a bike).

Hopping the track doesn't work for me. I have a bad knee, and I find myself unable to balance properly coming down the hill on the other side, particularly with all the loose stone. I tried it once and was glad I was wearing my helmet.

I yell "BIKE!" as loud as I can when I round the corners on that cattle chute. Even a few well-placed mirrors would be a welcome addition if they are going to keep the horrible design.

I've always thought the 'walk bikes' sign here was a bit of a joke, as that would only make you wider and more likely to get hit by someone coming the other way.

I am not sure if there is the room to get by underneath the bridge if you follow the old swineburn street/maint road back that way. Haven't ever poked around back there enough…

I learned my lesson about riding with headphones from this stretch of road. Ironically, I was off my bike and crossing the tracks late at night after cruising through the lot. Did not here the train until he saw me and laid on the horn 100ft away. That would be an odd statistic to become!

word on the streets is that they are repaving that section of second ave

word on the street

Heh. Good one.

I've crossed the tracks by the edge of the lot several times without incident. The few trains that come along there are moving fast enough to catch you unawares, as wojty noted. Just pay attention, though, and you'll be fine, just like crossing any road that doesn't have a stop sign for cross traffic.

Impala26's switchback idea has merit. Think FtDuq Bridge & Herr's Island.

The gravel on that little access road is tricky, but do-able. I've done it on road tires, both up and down. I don't think walking makes much difference, but it does help to be part mountain goat.

However, DO NOT cross the tracks by the Glenwood Bridge. Trains along there are flying!

Speaking of that immediate area, please everyone be careful at the Alexis / Saline stop sign.

I am looking at the intersection right now from my room and nobody stops at all. I am not urging you to actually stop but please know that the cars don't slow down either, much less stop and quite a few of them are drinking beers.

Fun fact, the only reason that there is a stop sign there at all is because my neighbor had to get steel plates in his head when he was hit on his bicycle there years ago. (or so the legend goes)

Point being, that sign is newish and nobody stops at it that lives down here and the old people are not thrilled that their quiet street has become a bicycle superhighway recently so watch your asses.

Flying trains? So it's safe to cross the Glenwood tracks on a recumbent, right? (Putting the duck! in Duck Hollow.)

Which stop sign is new? I'm trying to remember why I'm in the habit of avoiding Alexis in favor of using strictly Saline & Boundary, and maybe it's because of the way the stop signs used to be.

if you're like me, you avoid turning onto alexis because it involves two sharp turns, whereas turning onto boundary from saline is one big rolling left.

I'm talking about the stop sign at Alexis and Saline. By 'new' I meant in the last ten years

Stu, I doubt the city would ever consider investing in a full switchback structure attached to the Swinburne St. bridge. My plan instead entails a cheaper and more "terrain-hugging" route.

Swinburne Street Bike Paths

I tried the best I could to lay out the route to take into account the terrain of the area. I think it could actually be feasible grade wise (read: not too steep), but I'm not sure how feasible it would be construction, drainage/stability, and legal ROW -wise. I know firsthand that the area of Swinburne at the underpass is actually pretty wide and might be able to accommodate additional bike infrastructure. The benefit of a routing like this is sheer flexibility and would give cyclists more options getting around Oakland and Schenley Park.

@Impala cool ideas. There's a fair amount of traffic on Swinburne at rush hour times.

I can't help but think it would be cheaper though if the city just spent a little time thinking about the "cattle chute" area and made it slightly wider and fixed the end down by the road up toward the parking lot, and fixed the very tight turn at the top. A foot or two here and there, some better, more regular, maintenance, and it would be 10x better than it is. Right now it's almost totally an afterthought but it could be fixed.

I'm talking about the stop sign at Alexis and Saline. By 'new' I meant in the last ten years

Well, yeah, but the JH trail is older than that, isn't it?

@Impala: Is that really possible? It looks to me like it would be awfully steep, but I can't tell...

that is a great proposal impala... we've had threads about this area before and never had something as feasible looking as that... if i have time before i leave on my next trip i'm going to try and bushwack that

So, I learned something interesting today.

Traffic was really backed up, so I wasn't getting a good opportunity to make the left onto Second. Eventually, I decided that although the left lane was backed-up, the right was open. I figured I'd cut across to the right lane, pass through the underpass, then hop off my bike and cross the street as a pedestrian. Suboptimal, but a way to deal with the temporary disruption for the repaving.

When I got to the underpass, I was surprised how many cars were making rights on red, despite a sign saying not to do so. I pushed the button for the ped walk light. While I waited, a woman reached the intersection in the right-turn lane, and (correctly) decided to wait for a green to make her turn.

The ped light and the right-turn light go green simultaneously. That's just asinine.

Fortunately, although both the woman and I were surprised (and I think angry at each other, because each of us clearly saw that we had the green, and so felt that the other was at fault), I think we both looked and realized the problem simultaneously, and parted without having done anything beyond exchange dirty looks.

Anyway, be warned. I found the whole thing a PITA, and I won't try that particular trick again.

Impala, it looks like your proposed path connects to Swinburne/Frazier Street under the Parkway. But there's a solid support for the Parkway there. If you come up next to the Parkway, here, it looks like the street is already well about ground level to cross the railroad tracks.

Or is Street View misleading in this case?

@JZ - Sounds like a good call for 311. That light should NOT be like that.

Coming home again tonight, I just cannot fathom how anyone thought it would be a good idea to leave the cattle chute as it stands -- with jersey barriers now blocking the path and essentially forcing riders to either salmon upstream along 2d Ave (and with the possible danger that a driver not accustomed to the old barrier placement might change lanes to the right) or make that left onto 2d, which is hardly better and basically impossible at times. Ridiculous. This has got to be one of the more heavily traveled stretches of fifty feet of bike path in the city; there's no way the city would shut down a comparable stretch of road like this.

Yeah, I thought about the parkway retaining wall again. There does look like there would have to be some legitimate construction of a trail or something in that corner formed by the parkway retaining wall and Swinburne St. I still think there would be room to build a path along the hillside there, but again would require more construction than just "bushwacking".

I think the same could be said about a trail between Swinburne and Boundary St. The way I mapped it out roughly follows the contours of the hill there, but it would still have to be constructed in a way that wouldn't be degraded by soil erosion. And you would have to do something about the guardrail there and there would have to be some sort of "traffic calming" measure near that bend like a stop sign.

Sorry for deflecting the thread.

The problem with some people cutting up the "gravel" to cross the tracks and parking lot is that lots of stones migrate down onto the existing bikepath and roadway. I would much rather stay on my bike and go through the chute (which is currently still very ridable as the cars stay out of it because of the barrier paocement at the east end) than walk up and across the tracks.

As far as blind turns, there used to be a mirror on the west end, but am not sure it is still there. A quick "YO" (if you don't have a bell or horn) alerts anyone coming the other way. Having ridden that section hundreds of times a year for the past 8 years, I have rarely had a problem.

Maybe after they finish doing what they intend to do, I might finally bring my shovel down there to move a lot of stone so it does not migrate onto the path as much.

Overnight they scraped the road and put down a layer to asphalt, including the space that will (hopefully) be returned to the trail. They will need to set down a second layer of asphalt before they can put the jersey barriers back.

Overnight they scraped the road and put down a layer to asphalt

Indeed, I enjoyed the (slightly) smoother transition from 2nd Ave to the parking lot/trail access road (does it have a name?) this morning.

Not to be whiny... er, well, actually, I'm gonna whine.

Closing a heavily-used (by cars) connection between two roads without warning and without posting a detour for what is obviously pre-planned roadwork would generally be considered a bad idea, but apparantly the city doesn't see things that way. I appreciate that they're including the barriered portion of the connection, even though I don't use it, and I'd like to see the city continue to include bicycle/pedestrian only passages in regular roadwork and improvement projects, so I don't want to just complain to the city and give them the mis-impression that I'd be happier if they weren't doing the work at all. Does anyone have any ideas about how to constructively suggest that a little warning would help?

Also, I think a set of detour signs that were also clearly visible to drivers would help. The current situation has more cyclists than usual making the left onto second and merging with traffic, and many of those cyclists are more accustomed to using the passage, and as a result I've seen some awkward interactions. Perhaps some signs would help drivers be less surprised.

Sometime between 7 a.m. when I was inbound and 4:30 when I was outbound a solid white line was painted on the road where the jersey barriers were located. This at least provides a visual lane for traffic coming around the turn.

...a solid white line was painted on the road...

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? When Mommy Biker has Little 8-Year-Old Biker and Middle 12-Year-Old Biker and Big 15-Year-Old Biker along for the ride, and then Dipstick-In-A-Nissan-Armada comes flying around the corner, and one of the bikers is on/near/justover the line, have we really gained anything?

OTOH, I still remember the girl who took an elbow dive into the wall when I came through the chute once last year.

That corner is the weak link in an otherwise really nice chain.

@stu I think it's just temporary until the finish paving and put the barriers back. But I agree with you completely that no one in the city thought this out. Another example perahps of one department having no idea what the other is doing.

I've asked this before, but do they really need 2 lanes outbound? Why not get rid of one of them and push the barriers further out? Even better would be if they continued that all the way under the underpass..

Wow, very much agreed salty. No reason that one of three of those "passages" on the rail underpass couldn't be a bi-directional bike lane separated from traffic. Maybe put bollards or something on the Greenfield side of it so that bikes could actually enter that intersection either continuing down 2nd Ave to Hazelwood, or up Greenfield Ave.

Well, unfortunately the double-yellow is painted in the same place it was - seems like kind of an opportunity missed... especially since the chute is so heavily used by recreational cyclists, we might actually be able to get a lot of support for doing that.

I ran into a guy with a little kid in the run one day trying to figure out how to get to the jail trail... I could tell he was uncomfortable when I was telling him to be careful on the blind corners.

I don't see why the one section of the underpass couldn't be closed off to bikes and peds. At least outbound from that intersection, all the roads are single-lane for car traffic anyway (Saline St., 2nd Ave., and Greenfield Ave.). The corners are the worst aspect of this loop, if the one section of the underpass were just closed completely then nothing would have to be invested to improve those corners. It sounds like an easier (read: cheaper) option for the city in my opinion.

Also, going down there in person the other day, the sidewalk/trail from that underpass to the other underpass at Boundary St. is covered in debrs: of the plant and heavy gravel variety (from the railroad service road shortcut). Besides 311'ing it, would anyone be up for devoting an hour or two someday to just volunteer to clean this up? I have my machete and gloves... all else we would need would be like brooms, maybe a shovel for the gravel, and garbage bags.

Might need an actual AUTO to bring some of this equipment though...

this is also a great idea... someone call supersteve

bump..

So they seem to have finished repaving this, but the barriers have not been replaced. Instead there is a line painted (and the gravel is starting to collect.) I'll ride through anything and this isn't that bad... but it's not exactly a inexperienced cyclist friendly.

At the road up to the parking lot, the removed Jersey barriers are still blocking the sidewalk and the one on the corner has a piece of steel plate (they use it to fit them together) sticking out of it. That'll hurt if anyone ever falls on it after getting surprised by one of those parking shuttle vans.

I actually like it better without the barriers but wish they could work out the turn under the bridge.

I always clung to the stupid cattle chute, but since they moved the barriers I've just been taking 2nd Ave. I like it way more. Yesterday, coming back from the Bike-Friendly thing a car stopped on 2nd and highbeam-flashed us through.

I actually like it better without the barriers...

Yes I think you are right, it is better this way. The turn under the bridge could be improved by just moving that barrier.

Sorry to go offtopic here, but is that Sylvan Ave

cycleable? Is that the "hazleweood greenway?"

I hate the chute. Nobody walks their bikes and I'm sure it's pretty common to have surprise encounters between cyclists and the people at the bus stop.

A few years ago I overheard a cyclist complaining about the chute because it collects trash. Apparently a lot of bottles get thrown near there, and the glass just stays in the chute, it never gets swept out (by sweepers or by rain, whatever cleans the rest of the road). Without the barriers it's much cleaner.

I frequently ride on the road between the Schenley trail and the underpass. I also like having the option to get onto the road easily after turning off 2nd Ave, because I hate that little steep weird turn into the parking lot - the road is much more manageable.

That being said, it's probably preferable to have the chute than any other solution. A lot of inexperienced cyclists use this route and they absolutely should not be trying to make those left turns from the Jail Trail to the hollow.

Mirrors would be a really really good idea.

I rode this last week when the white line was there. Out of habit I ended up driving the wrong way in the inbound lane (inside the line) for 500 feet and it was terrifying. (There wasn't any traffic in that lane while I was there.) Not sure it's worth trying to make the real left (traffic is just too fast and I'm not sure which lane to use in the underpass), but I might walk that way next time if it's still there.

Steevo, didn't even know that was there. Looking at aerial photos (bird's eye view) from the maps over at Bing (they're better than satellite images when they have them) I'd say not on a road bike.

2 points:

1) re: gravel on the trail

-while I believe that some of it comes from cyclists and peds walking up the access road, most of it surely comes from the massive maintenence trucks the railroad has going in and out about ten times a week

2)re: why are there 2 lanes outbound on second?

they are neccessary during high traffic times as the line would be backed up beyond the hot metal bridge if there wasn't.

@spak, I was just talking about the gravel on 2nd avenue itself, which probably comes from rain washing stuff down through there from all over the place. It gets skittered to the side by passing cars and into the painted bike area. My parenthetical aside above was a brief lament for the 36 hours the new pavement was smooth and clutter free. It's still fine. No doubt you are exactly right about the gravel and rocks up around the bend.

I always thought that part off Sylvan was a utility line cut..

Just went by the spot an hour or so ago, and I have to agree that I actually like it without the Jersey barriers. Granted, this might make things a bit worse for inexperienced cyclists, but I think it will improve the drainage there considerably. I think the corner from 2nd onto the service road (formerly Swinburne) needs to be leveled out better. Right now the jersey barriers are blocking that side path up, so it somewhat forces people to ride on the service road itself rather than the side path.

@spak: I'm still not sure why two lanes outbound are necessary there. It's not like you have tons of people trying to turn left onto Saline like other nefarious roads (see: Bates and the Boulevard). And if the traffic backs up there, so what? This would simply be a matter of moving the backup to another spot because currently 2nd Ave through Hazelwood is bumper to bumper during rush hours ALREADY.

@john & steevo: I checked out Sylvan myself a few months ago. It's a rough-shod dirt trail more or less. If you look on the "map" view of google maps it shows property lines. It also shows many long-forgotten former right-of-ways of old streets in the city that were abandoned over time because they were no longer used or practical. Oakland and Greenfield have a bunch of them near the hillsides if you check this view, it's pretty impressive. I think there are enough of them that warrant converting them into official greenways/trails. The Sylvan Ave ROW could potentially be a part of a new route that would serve as an excellent alternative for Greenfield Ave.

Here's my ongoing map of trail ideas/improvements in the Oakland/Greenfield/Squirrel Hill area: http://www.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=113038755676662691776.000485c71f63c0bf7b791&ll=40.424278,-79.943819&spn=0.027443,0.098019&z=14

I don't think they need two lanes inbound immediately after the bridge do they? couldn't they consolidate to one lane or is one lane not enough for the large trucks?

I think they should put the barriers about a foot farther out than they were, to make it reasonable for bikes. Of course, that would narrow the inbound roadway quite a bit, and it would be tricky to drive fast through there, so put up signs that say "motorists must walk cars". Or, to be realistic, "Speed Limit 5"

There was already a good amount of paint on that barrier from cars bumping and grinding around the corner. We should make it as narrow as those little twisty ramps in parking structures. That should calm traffic.

What do people think of bollards like this (not the flower pots)? i sent this to the trail org for consideration. i don't really have hope that it will happen, but i think it's a possible solution that could improve drainage, allow plows and whatnot to get in, and widen the area as the bollards have a smaller footprint than the jersey barriers.

I like the use of bollards, if you need to exit the lane for any reason you can. I've always felt trapped behind the Jersey barriers. Of course I think the best solution would be a legit crossing of the RR tracks, but we'll take what we can get on this one.

Are you thinking of retractable bollards?

I vote for the flower pots.

But seriously, bollards would be cool here. You don't even need them that close together.

Anything that widens the lane would be good.

I hate the chute- I always wait patiently to make the left using the road when coming from the jail trail.

Bollards good. Would they really let the chute get cleaned? I like the new clean glass-free state of the chute and gravel-free state of the road turnoff which I fear is temporary both ways.

For the casual cyclist we need something that looks and feels safer than hopping train tracks. I don't mind taking rights but like your stereotyped woman driver, not so much for lefts so I take the chute outbound and ring my bell a lot. Very strange experience with no barrier (AND two way bike traffic in the chute.)

The city has water spraying trucks (as opposed to the sweeping ones). They could pretty easily drive past and spray the path, let the crap flow out between the bollards.

The Jersey barriers went back up along Second Avenue overnight. The statis quo is restored.

By any chance did they sweep it before putting them back?

After the repaving, there was no debris. In the week since I haven't noticed a significant buildup so it's pretty clean and smooth. I'm sure the broken bottles will be installed this weekend.

Boooo!

Yay! The gravel at the intersection is back! My commute was getting boring without it. Now I have to slow way down to a walking pace before I can take the corner, which I'm sure will make the lead-footed motorists behind me happy to have an extra chance to clip me.

It's supposed to be that way. It's a valuable opportunity to enhance your bicycle-handling skills.

Gravel installation: Thursday downpour.

Glass installation: Regular weekend festivities.

At your service.