BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Cycling Performance at UPMC

Everyone is different. I wouldn't trust the likes of UPMC for...well about anything, but I would let her "try" a few at a LBS. Most of that will be in her mind, so her picking a seat would probably be key.

Do bike stores usually let you go in with your bike and test out a bunch of different seats in there parking lot or wherever? My big fear is that testing them out wont give a great perception of comfort for a long ride. Do places have good return policies on seats so you can try something out for a weekend or so, and then return it if it doesnt fit you well? If they do, any nice attentive stores for this? Ive got stores I like to frequent, but usually my shopping experiences dont require a lot of patience on the retailers part.

REI has a great return policy. It might be helpful to find a shop with a female salesperson. The right kind of seat will depend partly on the type of pain she is having. Hopefully some of the women on the board could also speak up if the UPMC bike fitting people are knowledgeable about saddle issues unique to women. I have not gotten fitted there, so I can't say.

Thanks for the input. I know ive seen some female salesfolk at Trek in East Liberty (is that East Liberty? All those neighborhoods blend together.)

I'd be interested in checking out UPMC, but not sure how much money that might cost. Anyone here ever gotten a fitting there or perhaps even work there? Maybe its just the fact its called UPMC that makes it sound expensive.

Here is Sheldon Brown's article on saddles:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

On my main commuting bike I have a Brooks B17 which I hated at first but now love. The lack of friction makes a huge difference for me.

Before I started commuting regularly-- & was doing shorter rails-to-trails type rides in an upright position, I liked the Terry Liberator. It is wider, with a bit of padding and a cut out. PM me if you would like to borrow this one for a few days - I am on Polish Hill with some frequency.

There will also be a lot of different saddles on the Bikes at Try-A-Bike next Sunday. I can't tell from your OP if she is new to riding or not. If she is new-ish, she may find something more comfortable but be prepared to outgrow it and have different needs as she puts in more miles.

If she already puts in a lot of miles, hopefully some of the other females with more experience than me will chime in with some advice.

i'll second the brooks saddle. to me, the positives are: it "breaks in" to you, meaning you don't have to find exactly the right saddle—it becomes the right saddle. the top surface is super smooth as mentioned, and so you eliminate a lot of the friction that leads to chafing. it breathes, so you eliminate a lot of the uncomfortable hotness/sweating that leads to chafing. it can last forever if you take care of it. negatives: it's expensive. it requires upkeep. it takes a while to break in.

also: i've never actually tried this, but i believe bike shops have trial saddles that they will loan out for a period of time, so you can get a feel for riding on them for a while. everyone knows you can't sit on a saddle and say "this is the one for me." so, i believe bike shops can accommodate that. but again, i've never tried it. i would just walk in somewhere and ask.

I have had a bike fit at UPMC and I highly recommend it. Matt Tinkey is very good/thorough/ professional and he did a GREAT job for me. As far as I know they don't have alternative equipment there for you to try, but he does offer suggestions on that and can position/adjust whatever you have. Worth every penny to me.

I have San marco glamours on my bikes. I also start to get saddle sores from time to time, but I think there are other factors influencing that (riding fixed down hills, mostly).

A women's specific saddle is probably gonna be best for her, unless she has hips like a man (narrow pelvis, which some women do have). Brooks saddles seem to be great.

I also don't like upmc, but the bike fitting with Matt was one of the smartest thing I have done. Rocking hips because of incorrect saddle height can cause pain because of rubbing. if it is too far forward or backward on the rails, her girl parts and "sit bones" could be hitting the wrong part of the saddle.

The feeling you get from trying a saddle for a few minutes in a shop is not necessarily related in any way to the way it will feel for any length of time, so it is of very little use. Recommendations from other experienced users is probably more helpful.

Oh and +1 for REI. Worth becoming a member. You can return anything for any reason as far as I know.

@MichaelArtman: THe guys at Pro Bikes in Sq. Hill were kind enough to use a 'sit bones' measurement pad for me, recommend a seat based on those measurements, and even swapped the seat out to try it out.

I'm using a Brooks B-17S, womens-specific, on my touring bike & really like it. It works best for the rider who is generally in drops and leaning forward. I do have a B-67S-for a more upright position-that i had hoped would help my lower back pain on my old commuter. But that bike is just NEVER going to fit me. So, that leather saddle is sitting on a shelf. Happy to lend it out if she'd like to try it.

There's a thread on UPMC's bike fit by Scott somewhere on the discussion board. Worth reading. Bike fit is truly important, and worth the expense--perhaps $75-$100 @UPMC. I would actually spend the $$ on that first so as not to waste $$ on seats that ultimately might not work out.

REI is great, & has a very generous return policy for members. But selection isn't opitmal there.

My girlfriend has a Bontrager woman specific saddle (this one http://bontrager.com/model/08800 ) with a strategically placed indentation instead of a cutout, and she loves it. She had a lot of discomfort before that, and always recommends this one highly. You should be able to get one at the Trek store, and they have a 30 day money-back comfort guarantee so your ladyfriend can test it our for some long rides to make sure it works.

For my own part, I have a Brooks B17 Imperial (the one with a cutout) and it is amazing, but you can't return a Brooks (though they have good resale value).

Some Fizik dealers (http://www.fizik.it/women.aspx) have saddles you can try out, though I'm not sure if anyone does locally (I saw this out of state). My wife and I both use their saddles on our road bikes and are happy with them.

I'm not a female, but I find less padding is actually more comfortable - so try as many saddle styles as possible.

As stated above, pro bikes has a sit bone

measuring device that gives the proper width.

They can do bike fits too. I think

specialized has demo saddles too there. I

have become a huge fan of specialized saddles.

I agree with steevo's comments. The Specialized saddles are great. I know quite a few men and women who agree. That's not to say that others aren't also good.

I have no firsthand experience but have heard good things about both UPMC and Pro Bikes' bike fit services. I have heard the same of Big Bang Bikes as well. Whatever the cost, it has to be cheaper than the medical costs of a fit-induced injury.

a good fit starts to look pretty cheap compared to buying the wrong components too. good saddles aren't cheap so i'd want to make sure i was getting the right one.

I think I bought my current bike (Specialized Cirrus) party because of the awesome seat, which I somehow could identify immediately (though I admit I was very afraid of being wrong).

I know that the issue I've had with seats (painless and temporary but awkward nerve damage) it didn't manifest itself immediately, but it didn't take long on the bike (toodle around the block at DH's) for a wrong seat for me to affect me (delayed symptoms till later). It did take a few 30 mile + rides before I was truly comfortable saying "my seat is perfect for me".

DH's in Verona has a sits-bone measuring pad too, and they spent a lot of time with me getting fit and everything sorted out.

Crippling pains quickly into a ride seems like something a parkinglot toodle could induce, unless it requires hills or speeds. If it's ALL rides, it may also be less a seat and more a fit issue. I'd see if your LBS has any fit suggestions before going for a new seat. Often big problems have tiny solutions.

Good luck!!

When I went to Matt at UPMC, in a mater of minutes he was able see that my saddle caused a lot of problems and he recommended a few different ones. I picked one of them up that morning and road 168 miles on it a few days later.

After trying 20-30 different saddles, I was amazing that the one Matt recommended made such a difference.

+? Matt Tinkey and a good bike fitting from somebody who isn't selling you anything

+1 REI's return policy.

I have a personal anecdote about bike seats. Fifteen years ago, my first metric century, I got a bike-seat related injury. I go visit my Doctor and he says, What's your seat tube angle?

I stare at him because I have no idea and he says, It's possible you've got the only doctor that worked his way through med school in a bike shop. Absolutely fantastic.

He says, go home put a yardstick across your saddle, front to back, he bets it's nose-up, tells me to move it to level. Tells me I'll be better in six weeks (which was exactly true thank G^d).

Then he tells me, everybody laughs at this, people scoff at it, but you should go and get a Hobson Original Easy Seat for $30.

I bought one that week. Ended up buying one for each bike. Rode nothing but EasySeats for about 12 years. When I got my LHT five years ago I got a Brooks sprung saddle for it, and that's been good too. My road bike and my mountain bike still have the Easy Seats.

People ask about them. I've tried to get away with saying, "they're designed for umm over-endowed men" but absolutely nobody believes that and it generally gets a chuckle.

It's a good seat and it's very comfortable. You do lose quite a lot of body english with a noseless saddle, it's very difficult nigh impossible to take your hands off the handlebar with an EasySeat, for instance. It gets jiggy fast.

But FWIW, in my experience, this funny-looking no-cred Fred-seat kept me on the bike for a decade. Good luck finding a seat, it's a puzzling search.

I like the specialized saddles as well. Pro Bikes does have demo ones you can try before you buy.

^I think I'll buy a 'bent before one of those...

I got the Spongy Wonder and liked it but not so much for climbing. You have less power without the seat nose and when you slide forward and lose contact with the seat you have a lot less power. But the ergonomic seat was great on long rides, like a day or more. No problem with sore butt.

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. Quite helpful, this board is.

Good luck, and may the force be with you.

"You have less power without the seat nose and when you slide forward and lose contact with the seat you have a lot less power"

I produce much more power when I am standing and there is no contact with seat. In this case I use both push and pull movements and use stirring bar to apply arms muscles and stomach muscles for pulling.

Yes, when you stand and pump, you have more power. But when you slide forward, still crouched, there's less -- or that was the case for me.

Trek in East Liberty also has or had a sit bone assessment device. Also have some knowledgeable women with experience on fitting bikes (and saddles) for women. I am pretty sure they said that if they sell you a saddle and it doesn't feel comfortable after a short period of time (a month, maybe?), they'll let you exchange it for another (type/brand) of saddle.

That information was received a couple of years ago now, but I have not heard that it had changed.

You don't have clipless pedal, do you? If you shift forward you should use more your gluteus and biceps femoris/semitendenosus and less quadriceps. If you shift back then your muscle usage goes in reverse.

@Mikhail, I do have clipless pedals. Wherever the power was coming from I had less of it when I slid forward off the saddle.

mikhail: assuming your bottom bracket is closer to the front of your bike than your hips when you're comfortable in the saddle, sliding forward will shorten the distance to your pedals. this results in a suboptimal stroke, assuming you optimized for where you normally sit. for example, if you don't extend your leg (almost) fully at the bottom of your stroke, you might still be exerting downward force at the bottom of the pedal stroke. additionally, your ability to generate (instantaneous) power goes up as your knee straightens out, which would be inhibited if you shortened the distance to the pedals.

@hv Mechanically this is true. But latest researches propose to not fully (or almost) extend your knee. And some articles showed that maximum power output is around 155-160 degrees. Now this is for cycling only for repetitive motions only. If I remember correctly, they were talking about some problems with knees, etc if you straighten knee completely. Plus rear muscles bigger and more powerful but it's a tricky to make them work.

I've noticed lately that my back sometimes hurt when I'm trying to climb a hill (say, to keep up with a group). Part of me suspects it's my body responding to me trying to move quicker than I'm used to. I feel like I should adjust the height of my seat, but I'm comfortable with it at every other time I'm riding. Any ideas?

Sit bone analyzer worked well for myself and a riding buddy. I have never had many issues, the friend has.

@rf - that sounds to me like plain old muscle fatigue. is that what it feels like to you? sometimes when i am climbing some really steep hills after not having done so in forever, all the force that i'm using to push on the pedals causes my back to feel like it's tiring out, and it might be a bit sore after. i have back issues, though, and hill climbing actually seems to help with it.

@RF http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=1166853#1166853

> It's possible you've got the only doctor that worked his way through med school in a bike shop

@vannevar: whos your doc??! i want to go to him!

@HV: I also have back issues from working in restaurants for the past 8 years...I did stop noticing the pain after I was riding on flat ground for a bit after the hills where I noticed it, so it may be that. Guess it's tiger balm time.

@CM: that sounds pretty complicated to me. It probably isn't, but I'm more of a "change it over and over until it feels okay" kind of person.

It's incredibly simple, really. And just moving it around by feel is not a great idea, really. It's hard to diagnose yourself. Plus you're not able to take measurements every time you do it so it's hard to know where you were or where you're going.

Whatever Chris said. ^

Is anybody else bugged by the fact that this thread isn't labeled "let's talk saddles"

Well, recumbent bikes are also bikes.

@vannevar: whos your doc??! i want to go to him!

@melange396: he's departed the area and become a surgeon. Although I've seen several doctors, he was the first true Physician I was fortunate to know.

Hm, I guess the part that's confusing me is:

Step 3: take the desired percentage of this number.

How do I know what the desired percentage is?

Is anybody else bugged by the fact that this thread isn't labeled "let's talk saddles"

I'm more disappointed that we don't call our bikes "steel horses"

I believe the term is replacement horse.

Also, I've been really happy with my Terry Liberator-Y Saddle, regarding male-specific pressure relief on 60+ mile rides. I do think that, ultimately, I prefer the Brooks though.

Is anybody else bugged by the fact that this thread isn't labeled "let's talk saddles"

i knew i wasn't the only one.

@RF 96-100% per other posts in that thread by the same poster.

okay. I think I get it now. Though I had to read that sentence about 5 times to realize what you were saying (my brain comprehended it as "96-100% of her posts in that thread are by the same poster." I was trying really hard to figure out why that matters)

haha sorry, I could have worded that better! :p

No, it was worded fine, after I looked at it again. It just takes my mind a little bit of time to catch up with my eyes sometimes.