BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Some form of cyclocross-ish bike may serve you well...unlike some road bikes, it'll likely have clearance and fittings for fenders, racks, fatter tires, and all that good stuff that makes commuting more pleasant.

I've drooled over the Surly Cross Check and Long Haul Trucker bikes in the past, although I've never done more than test rides; you can buy 'em as frames, or as complete bikes.

No reason you can't have a sprightly commuter that'll still haul groceries...

+1 on the cross or touring bike. Try a Surly Crosscheck or REI now has a few steel frame commuter/touring bike models to choose from. Most LBS are useless at this niche, but you could try Thick Bikes.

see, that's where I start to think that one $1k bike is more economical than 2 $500 bikes which won't last as long. Then I waiver and start to think it's bad enough I'm buying new, why so expensive? The cyclocross tip looks good, though, thanks!

If cost is an issue, look into Kona's line of commuter bikes. I have a Smoke 2-9, with 700c/29-er wheels, fenders, upright bars. I got mine new for under $350, plus a bit extra for a rear rack. I've upgraded a lot of components, but most have those have been gotten via trade or my parts bin. I've been quite happy with it, and I wouldn't hesitate to do a longer (15+ mile each way) commute on it.

I've done a really long (20+ miles each way) on a converted mountain bike (which also served as my all-around bike for awhile). It wasn't going to win any races, but it did fine on long hills. And when I rode a faster bike on the same commute, my times weren't that much less.

Your first order of business should be finding a bike that fits you well. Everything else can fall into place from there.

I'm a little surprised, in these days, that a salesperson would tell you what you want doesn't exist! Any idea what the big sticking point is?

Seems like you want a high performance hybrid (hybrids are cheap), alum frame, triple crank, v-brakes to install fenders, eyelets to install racks, and the possibility to swap to a more roady handlebar in the future. Anything else?

Also, if you can nurse Becky along for another month, there will start to be mark-downs...

I agree with Bill. So you can get a hybrid for around $400, which would be like a mountain bike with frame eyelets and semi-light weight and slick tires.

For around $1000 you can get a touring bike, like a Surly Long Haul Trucker. It uses road components (derailleurs, cranks, etc) has eyelets and has less aggressive geometry.

I don't know if this is the case with anybody else, but I think replacing parts is part of bicycle commuting. That being said, my entire drive train (crank, chain, rear cassette) was around $100.

I would recommend using the word "touring" instead of road with bike shops and tell them what you want to actually do with the bike and they should be able to tell you your options. Ambridge Bike Shop also stocks Surly products, and they're my hometownish Bike Shop, so I have a slight bias towards them.

I have about a 13/14 mile commute and I use a "fancy" (everybody who has seen my jalopy of a bike can laugh) hybrid that gets the job done. It isn't fancy (okay, forget the first sentence) but it gets the job done. A touring bike would be nice, but isn't necessary.

So it comes back to how much $$$ you want to spend

I like that Kona Smoke! (I'm a Kona fan in general) I had no idea they were that cheap.

For the 2-9, though, I don't know what the availability of tire variations are for 29" wheels yet.

Well, I tell them I want:

- light weight (lighter than Crate Bike ~45#ish)

- lots of lovely granny gears for my sorry butt to get up my hills.

- easily mounted fenders, front/rear racks, baskets, etc. -> solid front fork.

- comfortable distance riding (I like upright, but really I just don't want to throw out a hip or lose feeling in my hands like Crate Bike did after 30miles)

- inexpensive as possible without being cheap.

- GAP-capable (in terms of conditions I'm likely to ask of it)

For off the shelf, the solid front fork throws out most MTB, the fenders throw out most road.

That's why I threw this out there - my thinking isn't getting me very far, so I'm ditching it in favor of what more experienced people (yinz guys) point me towards

That Kona Smoke looks interesting, and there's a Kona dealer walking distance from my office, I think I'll head over for a look-see. I do wish they had bike weights online, though.

Surly LHT or cross check.

Salso fargo.

A trek 520 is a 1050 dollar bike and is like a

really good mix of all things. thick tires, low

gears, racks and fender eyelets... but you can

also run skinny tires.

y'all post faster than I type. Becky is missing more teeth on gears than is healthy, and the rear wheel is wicked untrue with a broken spoke (all the spokes are funky from the sound of it). I'd rather not put in another 100$ into her right now, that's $100 of new bike I won't be getting if I do. I don't know what my budget is - what I CAN afford is a great deal higher than what I am willing to afford. I'm on the fence about what I'm willing to afford, though.

+1 on using the term "touring." A lot of bikes with drop handle bars are not race bikes, nor are they the proverbial "10 speeds" of the seventy's. Asking for a road bike is kinda like asking for a two seater car (corvette or smart car). Also, find a bike shop that will fit the bike to you – besides inseam there’s bar reach, seat position and other adjustments that make a big difference in comfort and injury avoidance.

Where's @cburch when you need him?

Thick has a myriad of options: old, new; mtn, cross, touring, hybrid, etc.

Reasonable pricing, and excellent service.

yup, you are looking for a touring bike or a cross bike and whoever told you the bike you want doesn't exist is either smoking crack or knows very little about bikes. nice thing about a cross bike is that many of them can take disc brakes, which are SOOOOOOO much nicer in the wet crappy fall/winter/spring of pittsburgh. go to thick, tell them what you want. this is their niche and they know it very well. plus if you bring your bikepgh card with you, you get 10% off!

fyi: the new entrance is around the corner on bingham st and dont park in the lot anymore during the week(and possibly on weekends) or the landlord will tow you. the lot is all for the ad agency next door now.

Consider using a trailer to extend the utility of a lightweight bicycle. Your "do it all" bicycle doesn't have to be able to "do it all all at the same time".

Reiterating bjanaszek's point: Your first order of business should be finding a bike that fits you well. Everything else can fall into place from there.

That really is key...being comfortable on the bike is what lets you ride longer distances. Trust me on this.

Okeedoke, Trek for lunch, DH's for dinner, Thick tomorrow after work. Keywords - touring/cross, "please help fit a bike to me". I'll stop using the words "road bike". If I lean towards something in the Surly LHT or Cross Check price range, I'll hit up Ambridge before I buy (it's wicked far away for me, but those look so awesome).

I'm really hoping to find The Bike in time to join the ride tomorrow evening

Thank you guys!

+1 for crosscheck/LHT. I have the former but if you buy the complete bike you might want lower gears (I put a triple crank on mine). LHT comes with lower (MTB-type) gearing stock.

I thought $1k was a lot to drop on a bike too but it was worth it. I probably saved that much in gasoline in the past year alone.

Don't get too caught up in comparing weights. If I can channel Grant Petersen for a moment...consider that most of the weight you pedal around is your own. A few pounds one way or another, unless you are steevo, really won't make a different in the quality or difficulty of your ride. Yes, a lighter bike will go up hills more easily, but it also won't carry stuff quite as well.

bjanaszek... that brings up a good question. I may be proving I'm not worth my degree, but why is that? Is it just the extra rigidity and perhaps higher stress limits that a heavier bike has that makes it good for hauling? I mean I'm not trying to carry cement bricks in paper sacks, but do I really need a reinforced steel cage to get them from A-B, or will a durable gunny sack do? (sorry for the analogy, I don't know bikes enough to talk real sense except through what I see as the comparison).

Or is it just the idea (common conception?) that weight == strength?

I've commuted on mountain, road, and now a cross bike and like the cross bike best by far. It's sturdier than the road bike in terms of trails and potholes but still somewhat lighter with a more aggressive geometry and bigger big ring than a mountain bike so I can still pretend I'm going fast when I forget I'm old and out of shape.

Many cross bikes have a tipple chain ring, and there is almost no road hill that you can't pedal through in the granny gear.

I mostly like my disc brakes. I've got a few steep downhills and I burn through fewer disc brake pads than I did rim brake pads and stopping power is definitely better when it's wet. Pads are more expensive, but there are some deals online where you can get them for about $7 a set if you buy 4 at a time. So about double the price of a rim brake pad but overall with the longer life and increased wet stopping power I think it's a win. I also find them easier to adjust and keep tight that rim brakes as you just need to spin the dial and not mess with wire tension and alignment.

I ended up getting a used one off ebay, but had been looking at the Kona Dew (flat bar) or Dew Drop (drop bars) but couldn't find a local dealer at the time. TRM now carries them so I assume they'd be at any of the local Trek stores.

I'd guess you'd be very happy with any bike store brand with the triple chain ring for going uphill and the disc brakes for going downhill. I don't know why, but cross bikes seem to command a premium price over similar looking bikes from the road, mountain, or hybrid categories. Going with a used one was the only way I could find to bring down the price significantly.

Much of a bike's load carrying characteristics are determined by its geometry. So, a bike can be reasonably light, and still carry a load (the LHT and Cross-Check come to mind) because they are designed with such utility in mind. Not every commuter bike is, ironically, designed to carry a bunch of stuff.

I suspect that given your needs, a Surly or maybe a Kona would fit the bill nicely.

fyi you can get the surly bikes at dh and thick (and probably trek, but i'm not sure) pretty much any real bike shop can order surlys even if they dont stock them and surly is owned and distributed by qbp and pretty much every bike shop in the country has an account with qbp.

also, for what its worth, stef(b) got her first two bikes at ambridge bike shop and they were both way too large for her (the road bike in particular would have fit a 6' tall man and she's a 5'3" woman) she hasn't been back there since we met.

re: bd, yeah, I've looked at cyclocross bikes, they seem to be a little "hot" right now (everything is relative ), few (what I would consider) good deals.

cburch - thank you for the tip. I'm going to ride Kona's at Trek in a few minutes, and while at DH I'll talk to them to see how fast they can get a bike in for me if I know what I want and they don't carry it. I'd rather buy from the shop that has given me so much great service, but I'd also rather buy a bike that I've tried and I know fits. Or at least someone that seems to know what they're doing thinks it fits. Apparently I'll ride anything that rolls and not notice until something goes inconveniently numb, so my opinion of "fits" or "comfort" may be grossly off.

After using a mountain bike with good shocks on the road the other weekend, I have to admit that comfort should be taken into account with longer rides/commutes. Even if you're riding on pavement, how many roads in the Pittsburgh area are in sub-par condition? I still think it might be in most people's interest to invest in a mountain bike but swap out for smoother road tires and other upgrades to make it more "hybrid". I still think the design of mountain bikes with shocks and a wide variety of gears is good in for riding in the Pittsburgh area. The seat is also likely to be upright, which gives you a great view in traffic. The drawbacks are that the bikes are heavier and the tires, but like I said you can find more road-like tires for mountain bikes. You would still need to get lights, fenders, and racks/baskets.

Still, I would suggest to most new people looking to commute in comfort to stick with a mountain bike and adapt it, or go with a hybrid type bike or something.

Performance Bikes is having a parking lot tent sale that started today. I have not been there since the grand opening but I recall they had some reasonably priced ($300ish) GT mountain and commuter bikes. They may be worth taking a look at this weekend.

http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_401502_-1_600000__

My wife and I have both been riding Specialized Cross bikes for the last year or so and love them. They come with 32mm tires, which are great for rail trails and lousy city streets. My wife has a second set of wheels with 28 slicks on them for road riding. The bikes can mount fenders, racks, etc. Three chain rings in the front and a road cassette gives a lot of options for going up hills and going fast on flats (not quite a road bike, but still). Anyway, they are great all around bikes. They were $1050 at DH last year.

Next week my wife is going to ride across Iowa (RAGBRAI) on her's!

In the past 15 years here in Pittsburgh, I have commuted on a Specialized mtn bike (old stumpjumper until the frame cracked, then a rockhopper), a Trek (original, frame cracked after 20 years, now a 520) and a Motobecane Grand Record (racing bike, yep, frame cracked, new frame). I had to lash a rack to the Moto, but it worked fine for a 7 mile commute. My preference is the 520, but "road" bikes are fine for commuting and light trail riding- I ride mine on Frick and Schenley trails sometimes.

As far as cost, multiply your car commute by $.50 for as many miles you will commute in a year, them by around 10 years or more. Compare that to bike prices. Factor in enjoyment, fitness, and earth friendliness.

I just test rode a Kona PhD (sale for $899) and a Trek... something that was $399 not on sale. (The Trek store may claim they sell Konas but they had exactly 2 in store, they were not that keen that I asked to see Konas) I of course preferred the Kona (though it was really "hard", I didn't like the tires I think). It seemed to have mostly everything I want, and the shifting felt... well, rich.

My old bike was a death trap. I needed new brakes. I know, because I completely flipped over the handlebars on my test ride rather than gently slowing down from a crawl to a sub-crawl, which is what I thought would happen upon "gently" applying the brake. I'm now less worried about disc brakes vs rim brakes since I've survived in what I had, which was, by comparison, no brakes. But the handlebars were not true to the wheel when I was done, they kinda shouldn't have let me test drive it without that being tightened, no?

See, I stopped by Performance on Tuesday after work, having remembered the Great Wall O' Bikes and the sale prices and the really nice sales staff, and they said what I wanted, they don't carry (that's where I was informed of my "niche market" status). But I'll be in the area this weekend, so I'll try again.

I'll see if DH has any more of those Specialized bikes tonight.

Any shop that tells you this is a niche market, doesn't stock a bike like this, or tries to sell you something else, isn't worth your time.

The "sturdy" road bike market is literally exploding with new models from just about everyone making bikes today.

Which trek store did you go to, shadyside? Doesn't sound like very good customer service. Maybe they're just absorbing the shadyside 'tude.

Oh, no, this was Cranberry, as I am currently in Hell. They didn't... I didn't offer them much in the way of information (other than to ask to see a Kona Smoke, he corrected me to point out they are a _Trek_ store but could order me one for money down). He asked for my price limit and I said I'd rather talk prices after we talk about bikes. Funny, I'm not sure he ever asked for clarification for what I'd be using it for, and I know I wasn't helpful there. I was not a helpful customer, but they were polite and did a fine job, I have no complaints at all! The first bike they showed me was actually pretty darn perfect for what I want (Kona PhD). The second was just too small. The third I just didn't have time to ride (someone else was out trying it).

They did admit that most of the traffic they get is "I want something to ride the GAP on" and a blank check from people with either more money than sense or just enough money they don't care. I think I just confused them, which is normal for most of the people around me, I wouldn't hold it against them.

Their other customer at the time was up from Florida looking for a bike that "could handle all these crazy hills" (he said as he gestured to the mostly flat area around us).

REI might be another place to check out, at least to test ride some things. They seem to have an emphasis on practical bikes. A few ideas:

http://www.rei.com/product/796407

http://www.rei.com/product/775749

http://www.rei.com/product/796453

http://www.rei.com/product/791138

Don't know what they have in stock locally.

They also have Surly stuff, at least online.

Thought I'd add to the thread why I bought a cross bike when I sold my road bike. Like many women, my legs are longer than a those of a typical man of my height (men generally have proportionally longer torsos, women longer legs). So when I looked at road bikes that were "tall" enough for me (max distance from seat to peddle), they were generally too long (from the seat to the handlebars). That made me lean forward more than was good for my back for too long. There were women's bikes at the store I wanted to buy from, but I really didn't want a pink bike, or one with flowers (etc) on it. (Not that there's anything wrong with girly stuff, but I like to be able to opt out if/when I choose. I want a flower, I'll weave one into my helmet or something. anyway.) The cross bikes had a slighty different geometry - I was finding bikes with sufficiently long seat tubes and sufficiently short top tubes (tall enough, but not too long). So we put road tires on the thing and I'm extremely happy.

Good luck with this - I know it can kind of hurt to spend money, but at the same time, getting a great new bike has got to be one of the most exciting things around.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I've been to the Trek store in East Liberty, errr, East Side, but they had a decent selection of Kona models. That's where I purchased my Smoke.

If you end up looking at hybrids or upright road bikes, too, be sure the frame will accept full fenders. I don't understand how bikes billed as urban/commuter bikes can be designed with at least clearance for fenders.

Not sure if you want to go to this cost, but I spoke to "Jeff" at the Shadyside Trek shop. He said they have a Trek Portland commuter with disk brakes and fenders on sale. Normally $1549, on sale for $1299.

And I think he said they had a Kona Sutra which looks really similar, for maybe less than that.

Sorry to hear about your Cranberry experience. I hate what passes for "customer service" these days.

Oh @ALMKLM, it's not the bike shop that was hell, it's Cranberry itself - I have zero complaints about Trek Cranberry, they were very nice! I'll try Shadyside and other trek stores too though.

@bikefind - thank you! You put into words what I'd been pondering about fits and mens vs womens sizes and whatnot.

Don't know if you've made your decision or if you still want ideas...I bought my Redline a couple months ago using just about the same criteria that you posted. It's a cyclocross style frame, sturdy/good hauler, disk brakes. I posted a link and pics of it in this thread if you're interested: http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/road-or-cyclocross

I've been pleased with it and Glen @ Big Bang did a great job making sure I got what I needed and was fit accurately.

Thanks Tabby - I can still use advice. I may be borrowing a friend's daughter's bike for sanity's sake until I sort this out.

I was going to say that I'd mostly ruled out a lot of cyclocross style bikes because of the handlebars, but realized that I don't think I've ever actually ridden one (or a road bike, at least not in recent memory) and am purely going based on what I *think* it would be like to ride crouched like that. I'm hitting another bike shop tonight in an effort to actually give cyclocross/road style drop bars a fair shake. I'm not sure you meant to, but thank you for pointing out one of my personally erected mental roadblocks!

I did try a... well, I can best describe it as a 1961 Stationwagon with wood panel sides in bicycle form last night. I don't remember who made it. Aluminum frame, avocado green, white tires, wood rear rack panel. A very nice bike, but definitely a Crazy White Lady Bike. Very upright position that, surprisingly, I didn't like at all, lowering the handlebars didn't fix it much.

So perhaps I do not prefer the posture I thought I did.

funny thing about the riding posture and handlebars. I was VERY resistant to try any of the bikes with drop bars. Honestly it took quite a bit of test riding before I felt ok with them. I actually visited my bike 3 times before I bought it- mostly because of the handlebar issue. Now, not saying you'll convert over to them, but I ultimately feel that they are more comfortable and perform better in climbing hills.

Tabby, can you talk any about your process of having adapted to the drop bars? And what you feel you get out of the different positions? I'm almost always up high on mine, only (very nervously) going into the drops when I know my braking power won't be sufficient to stop me from the higher grip.

If you like the Smoke, I ended up going for a Novara Buzz V '09, I think the '10 has 700 wheels and is a nice ride.

http://www.rei.com/product/791144

The thing to remember about drop bars is 95% (or maybe 99%) of the time you are not riding in the drops. When you're on the hoods the posture is not that much different than flat bars.

I can say from experience, coming from MTBs, it takes some getting used to. It took me a long time (weeks if not months) to go from "I made a terrible mistake" to "these are pretty cool". The bad news is you can't really judge when you're out shopping - you're almost guaranteed not to like the drop bars because you're not used to them.

The variety of hand positions is a big win IMHO, especially on longer rides.

the hand positions thing is a huge deal to me. my hands would always start to hurt after a mere twenty miles on flat bars, and have made it 140 miles in a day with no difficulty.

one way to make the transition easier is to get a bike with inline brakes on the top bar. this way, you can hold yourself in a more upright position, on a flat bar, and still have control over your brakes. it's hella convenient.

Thanks salty and HV,

I'm on the hoods most of the time, on the top bar when my hands need a break, and in the drops when I'm on a scary downhill where I need to know I can slow myself down.

When do you find yourself using the different positions? Like where are your hands when you're climbing vs descending vs uneventful flats? Or do you just try to mix it up to save your hands without any particular pattern?

HV: I actually have inline brakes, but have yet to use them. Thanks for the prodding to do so. On the older bikes there was a brake in that position they called a suicide brake, I think? I understand that the brakes in that spot on modern bikes are much more effective, but there's a part of my brain that maintains a leery aversion.

personally, i find that i don't keep my hands on the hoods all that much, unless i need to shift frequently (e.g. in traffic). if i'm just cruising around, i'll usually have my palms on the top, and if i'm trying to get somewhere or if i get tired of that position, i'll dip down to the drops.

as for the inline brakes, i find it a lot easier to stop there than in the drops, plus when i'm braking hard, i like to be upright for a) air resistance, and 2) better sight lines.

@bikefind- getting used to them just took a bit of practice. nothing in particular besides riding around in an area where I could focus on myself and not traffic. I'd say it took a week of riding to feel at ease with them.

Most of the time I'm on the hoods, very comfortable. I use the drops down hills, sometimes climbing hills mostly. I only use the top bar occasionally when I want to sit upright and stretch a bit.

If moving your hand position is awkward you could try practicing moving in and out of the drops while riding somewhere flat. If you only are moving to the drops when you're about to go down a big hill, I could see that feeling not so good.

Thanks Tabby - I'm going to have to dedicate a few rides to playing with the drops. Up til now it's been one of those "can't fix the roof in the rain / why fix the roof - there's no rain coming in?" situations. I know better but am still susceptible to that.

Thanks again HV - it helps to hear what other people have come up with, even if they're not all the same.

Drop bars didn't evolve just because cyclists are masochists. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with pootling around the block on a 50-pound gaspipe upright tank if that's what you want to do. But if you get to the point that you want to cover some distance in a reasonable time, then you'll need more speed, and there is equipment that has evolved to suit that task. There seems to be a kind of reverse snobbery about this, sometimes, which is silly.

If you really think there's nothing wrong with it, and if you'd like to help reduce the amount of reverse snobbery (or stuff that might come off as reverse snobbery), I might suggest not calling it pootling.

Not that some people might not choose to take a slow easy ride around the block and see it that way, just because that's what they're in the mood for that day.

But you could also easily have people in your audience who have had to put as much effort into what would be pootling for you as you've had to put into some of your greatest accomplishments on a bike. It's hard to know what challenges each person may be dealing with.

That said, I'd be really interested to read more about how the equipment relates to the task. If you feel like writing more about that.

Hey, ejwme, how tall are you? I bet I could lay hands on a 'cross bike if you want to try one out.

I could lay hands on...

mayhew is a paladin? who knew?

Pootling is relative to the pootler. I don't mean it as an absolute term. There are people who use bicycles as a substitute for walking because walking is too much work. They only bicycle distances that they're easily capable of walking, but the great thing about a bike is that you can do it SITTING DOWN, and you can coast. These are the target market for the Segway (though that seems not to have caught on too well). In my hometown, the latest fad seems to be little gas scooters. They have a top speed of about 16 mph, and their owners ride them three or four blocks. On the sidewalk, half the time. (It's probably better than starting up the Chevy to go to the corner store. That's a tough call.) This is pootling.

Something you do, and put an effort into, that's not pootling.

I've taken some road-style bikes on some short rides on occasion, and one thing that kept bothering me was my neck when I was down on the drops. It was immeasurably more comfortable to be looking down right at the front wheel, but of course you want to be looking forward to avoid potholes and all manner of road hazard.

Is there some secret to it that I'm missing? It's quite possible that the specific bike I was using was a bad fit, but I couldn't imagine doing any real distance or duration with my neck in such an uncomfortable position.

Whoops, sent too soon. How the equipment relates to the task:

1. You generate more power when you're bent over at the waist. It gets your glutes into the action, which are the biggest muscles in your body.

2. You can be more aerodynamic if you present less frontal area to the wind. Drag is proportional to the square of the velocity, so an effect that is not significant at 10 mph with a 13 mph tailwind becomes *very* significant at 12 mph with a 13 mph headwind. When you're only going a couple of blocks, most of your time is spent getting on and off the bike, locking it up and so forth, so you really don't care if you average 7 mph or 14 mph. But you probably can't afford to spend more than two hours a day commuting to work, and if that commute is 12 miles each way, you're going to need to be traveling somewhere around 15 mph most of the time. So aerodynamics starts to become a practical matter. Even if you think you're not a strong enough rider to develop any speed, we have a lot of hills around here. You can easily reach 30 mph on some of those downhills without working a bit. You paid gravity's price to get up that hill, now if you want to get as much of that payment back as you can, you'll care about aerodynamics. Drop bars reduce your frontal area in two different ways. First, they allow you to bend down and get some of your torso behind the rest of you. Second, if properly sized, they bring your arms in closer to your body so you're not making a parachute of yourself.

3. Drop your hands to your sides. Relax. Now, without moving your hands, lift your arms up in front of you. The position your hands are in is a nice neutral position for your wrists. The more you deviate from that, the more likely you are to develop carpal tunnel syndrome, or just plain numbness and tingling in the hands. Mountain bike bars are about the worst on this score. There are various kinds of upright bars which provide better hand positions, and could also be an option.

Yeah, it's time for bed now, so that's it for the moment.

Drag is proportional to the square of the velocity, so an effect that is not significant at 10 mph with a 13 mph tailwind becomes *very* significant at 12 mph with a 13 mph headwind.

drag is only linearly dependent on the drag coefficient, so remaining upright will contribute the same multiplier to drag at 15 mph as it will at 25 mph (though what it multiplies increases, as you say, with the square of velocity, so the magnitude of the effect is larger).

i apologize to all for my pedantry, but i'm a sucker for precision, especially in re: physics.

re; ieverhart, it's just a matter of getting a different set of muscles in shape and up to the task, it takes some getting used to, but after a while it's nothing. In reality you don't have to crane your head back nearly as much as you might think, you get used to letting your head drop down more naturally and turning your eyes up to look forward. I don't know if you know much about swimming, but think of the crawl stroke, beginners tend to struggle to keep their head way up in the water and waste tons of energy, experience teaches you to let your head down in line with your spine and go fast.

What Edmonds Said.

Also, nobody really spends all THAT much time in the drops. Unless they're riding into a 13mph headwind.

A few more items on hbar choice:

- drop bars are sized so that they're nearly the same width as the cyclist's body. This is in part so that nothing sticks out when riding in a pack. That's a criterion that is irrelevant for most of us, most of the time, except for the start of the MS150 and splitting lanes in Oakland...

- some people, such as those with back or neck problems, or the heavily overweight, will find it actually impossible to achieve anything remotely like the classic roadie aero position. They would need a higher stem position, and perhaps one of those other new/old-fangled hbar styles like the moustache bars or the albatross or something else. There are lots of choices. However, people often tell themselves that something is impossible for them, when it really isn't, they're just unwilling to try. A minimal level of core strength is required. I'm probably the walking example of that minimum ;( Yoga or pilates exercises will help there.

I have a handlebar fetish, so I'll jump in.

For commuting and general noodling, I find a nice upright bar like the Albatross (or the new FSA Metropolis, of all things) works very well. I've also done long, fast-ish (not race/training pace--think "club ride") on several bikes with non-drop bars. I had no issues getting getting aero-ish if I needed to, and I appreciate the comfort of the upright position, too.

That said, I have no reverse snobbery against drop bars. No other bar style offers as many different hand and wrist positions. Heck, even Grant Petersen extols their virtues. If you aren't sure about what bar style is right for you, check out the above link.

Thanks Lyle!

My intuition was completely backwards wrt (1). I think on some level I was comparing the hip joint with a mechanical system you're trying to loosen with a couple of wrenches, where a bigger angle makes the job easier. Completely not taking anything about human anatomy/musculature into account.

Anyway, all the explanations you gave have me really psyched. This time of year I'm kind of obsessed with mtn stuff, but once all the autumn leaves cover all the dangerous stuff on the trails, I'm going to get out and play with all this on my cross bike.

Thanks again.

@Chris - I'm 5'8, but Dirty Harry's has a few that I tried on Friday evening.

I love all the advice/perspectives. It all helps make sense of all the bikes I tried.

I think I tried like 6 different bikes adjusted about eleventy thousand different ways Friday evening. The Most Awesome Bikeshop Guy Ever had me trying different bikes, positions, and interpreting my responses "Crouchy but light" and "Wobbly and pinchy", and my least helpful, "my elbows went wrong". I rode a road bike for what I believe to be the first time ever, and WOW it felt fast just to get on it. The only thing that I wasn't so keen on with the road bike was the shifters - they just felt... sketch. They were also the cheapest shifters possible, so maybe if I try something sturdier it might be better. But the shop was closing.

So I can now honestly say that what I like in posture is a DECENTLY FIT bike, and what I do not like in posture is an INCORRECTLY FIT bike. I like crouching and upright equally, recognized as different styles, but comfort-wise I can feel both as comfortable - as long as the bike actually fits *me*. For my commuting, upright is not what I want, though I may not be slower, the psychology of *feeling* slower will be a disservice.

I also managed to figure out that... bike seats matter, and I really like the stock Specialized one that comes on a Sirrus Elite. Heck, I would have bought that bike Friday night, but The Most Awesome Bikeshop Guy Ever said he wanted to think more to see if he could improve on it, and he's completely earned my trust. But bike seats matter to a degree that will prevent me from cycling at all if not tended to with the utmost care.

glad you found a shop you like and trust. dh is a quality shop and the people there definitely know what they are doing. also glad you have learned that fit is EVERYTHING before buying your first expensive bike.

I've ridden the Sirrus and have to agree that the seat (and the hand grips) are really comfortable. The difference in comfort and performance between your old and new bikes is probably staggering. You're going to be showing up places 20 minutes early!

hey - if I show up 20 minutes earlier that'll only be 30 minutes late!

But really, the difference in comfort will probably force me to donate Crate Bike, or in the very least get a new seat. It's like the difference between running uphill barefoot on potholed pavement and taking a stroll on the beach. Even uphill cobbles feels better.

I'm so ridiculously excited - and I haven't even picked a bike out yet.

Dirty Harry's is awesome, they actually measured me and swapped out stems until I found a size I liked on the mountain bike I bought from them.

Isn't riding the hoods actually bad for your wrists/hands? I believe I saw something on Sheldon Brown that discussed how the handlebar jams into that valley at the heel of your hand, putting undue pressure on the nerves and vessels there.

Or I could be totally wrong. Hope so, cause that is the most comfortable.

I think maybe on older setups that might have been the case, esp with smaller hoods. Look at the guys from the 80's and how their bikes are set up. The bars are pretty high but they are in the drops a lot. Also, the hoods are pretty low.

Nowadays most roadies are set up so that they can barely reach the drops but have the stem low to the hoods are a nice comfortable all day position.

And a proper 'cross racing position is about being almost entirely on the hoods the whole time.

Noah - I saw the same thing on Sheldon Brown's site - I think he was more cautioning against pressure here, rather than just being anti-drops...

http://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#fingers

much of what is on sheldon's site is a bit old and more than a bit biased. lots of good info on certain things, but too many people take his every word for gospel.

You dare criticize Sheldon?

May you be forced to ride a Real MAN ® saddle from Cranberry to Meadville until you repent of your heresy!

sheldon started it when he said downhill racing was an abomination and not a true discipline of cycling.

not to mention the almost luddite stance he took on many things new and different. if i want to learn about older road bikes, bents, or anything fixed or single, hes my first stop. anything about suspension, high tech parts or gravity disciplines, not so much.

regardless, pressure where anatomy wasn't designed to take it (soft parts, hand, non-sits bones parts of butt, etc) = not good. That's what I got from Sheldon on that. I missed any anti-downhill bias. I think going downhill as fast as possible is one of the bonuses of riding a bike. Reading the top of his post on posture makes me think that his anti-stance is mostly anti-people setting up their bicycles for a posture that is not anatomically efficient for their riding goals/style.

But I DO have a pro-Sheldon bias. I just like the guy's writing. Easy to read, easy to understand, a good place to start my learning while I figure out what words to google to get more details/perspective.

not riding a road bike down a hill. downhill mtb, along with dirt jumping, slope style, four cross, dual slalom, bmx, etc. were all in his mind bastardizations of "true" cycling and therefore not worthy to be included in the sport.

the problem with the thing about the hoods on his site is that its outdated. the basic idea about keeping pressure off soft tissue is good, but it was relevant when he wrote it, but the design of the hoods has changed a lot since then, along with the design of the bikes they are on.

it isn't that he didn't have a ton of knowledge, its that people believe that he was infallible and everything he wrote is the absolute truth now and forever. no matter what.

i like sheldon's site because he explains his reasoning for everything. that makes it easy to disagree with his stance, if you disagree with his reasoning or find that it's not relevant (in the case of outdated material, for example). he wasn't afraid to express his opinion, but he also didn't hide the fact that it was opinion; a demagogue, he ain't. we have a d00d who spent a whole lot of time thinking smart thoughts about bikes and wrote it all down - what's not to love?

that said, i've never seen him call anything "true" cycling (or not) or anything snobbish like that, and i'd like to give it a read if you can point me in that direction.

i'll see if i can dig it up. it was pretty crappy.

my issue isn't really with sheldon. its with the people that blindly follow everything he said. he was always very clear that it was his opinion, but more and more he is referenced as FACT. and with him being unable to add more or change opinions, due to not being alive, it is now UNCHANGING FACT. the following that he has among internet engineers and would-be know-it-alls has achieved an almost religious state of blind stupid faith.

found it!

from the glossary:

"Downhill Racing

I consider this fad to be bad for cycling, and contrary to the spirit of cycling. It is effectively just a variant form of motorcycle racing, since most of the power is provided by the machinery that carries the rider and bike to the top of the run. Bicycling should be a human-powered activity, or it is not bicycling to me."

it used to be even more of an attack on the sport but i cant find an old enough cache of the page. the beginning still shows up on a google search though:

"Down Hill, specifically, down hill racing. This activity goes against the spirit of cycling more than any other branch of the sport, since it is the only ..."

also whenever he refers to downhill he adds "(yuck!)" before it. such as:

"These are mainly intended for use on (yuck!) downhill bikes,"

or

"even if it does involve (yuck!) downhill racing."

downhill is also the only bike type that appears in quotes consistently throughout the site. its: cross country, road, touring, etc for everything else, but with downhill its: "downhill"

Have you tried The Wayback Machine?

couldn't go back far enough to get the original definition. i saw it somewhere else before so i can look around for it, but i did notice that he made a small but important change to the current "definition" a few years ago. he added the "to me." at the end. it used to say "Bicycling should be a human-powered activity, or it is not bicycling."

the thing is, he never did it and has no idea how much "human power" it takes to do, which is a LOT. its more relevant to me as someone who is very passionate about the sport of downhill, but its really just an example of how one sided and biased his site can be. that in itself is fine as long as what he writes is taken as his opinion, the issue is when people start pulling the "well sheldon says..." card as though it were "IMMUTABLE AND INDISPUTABLE FACT"

err... while his statements are all very disputable, what Sheldon actually said is immutable, since he's passed on and can't revise it anymore.

that being said, I'll keep an eye out for Sheldon Worship in myself and others, and try to keep it in perspective. He's made me think, and I'll try to let your comments continue that activity in my head

immutable opinion is one thing, but when people start talking about immutable facts i take issue.

again, i liked sheldon's writing and valued his knowledge of all things fixed and single, not to mention older bikes. he seemed to be a pretty cool old curmudgeon from what i knew, but the nearly religious fervor that surrounds him should be taken with a grain of salt.

all right cburch, i think we've heard just about enough out of you. one more word against sheldon brown, and i will ban you! the moment i gain control of some website somewhere!

It's a darn shame old Shel's gone, I'd like to see him and Grant Peterson go head to head in a mental cage match of cycling profundity. On Versus.

FWIW, I rode the MS150 once on a MTB with straight bars, no bar-ends, no gloves, no real thought to varying my hand position, and my hands were numb for weeks afterwards. I was in a band at the time and couldn't play - fretting the strings was complete agony. I was extremely worried that the damage was permanent but eventually it went away.

I put on a set of bar-ends the next year and didn't have a problem. Drop bars this year, even better. I spent a lot of time on the hoods, but there are at least 5 different ways you can grip the bars (plus you can ride no-hands) and the point is to vary things. Don't get hung up on being in the drops - especially when commuting you won't be spending much time there.

Ok - the search is over and results are in.

I should have actually purchased the bike on Friday evening, because I went with a Specialized Sirrus Elite anyway. Standard everything, all I added were fenders (some plastic german things with safety features, the package said they were recyclable and I plan on testing that should they fail). They moved my rack over for me, the basket will follow when I get the different sized little pieces to fit the different handlebars (which I love). I was concerned over the seat, turns out there's a magical little non-embarrassing measuring device to make it somewhat scientific, and the stock seat is pretty much "my size" in addition to being the most comfortable (as far as I can tell) for me.

It's waiting for me at the shuttle stop to ride home (I drove it there), and I'll get to toodle around tomorrow on it some. I've gone past excited to just relieved.

And I'm going to fix up the Crate Bike anyway, because there's some stubborn part of me that insists anything that CAN be repaired and reused SHOULD be repaired and reused. That and it just looked so forlorn and naked when they took off the racks and everything, like a puppy at a pound that lost it's home-made sweater or something.

And so a huge and giant "Thank you!!!!" to each and every one of you - the information, stories, and just plain support has helped me feel very confident making such a subjective choice from a relative place of ignorance

congratulations!

and have a great time tomorrow

Wow, you've got some serious self-control to get a new bike and then lock it at a shuttle stop! I usually have to be looking at it every couple minutes. Have fun!

edmonds - it's actually in the trunk of my car. I was going to lock it to a light pole by the shuttle, but decided that was too out in the open. Then I was going to lock it in the bike racks behind the building, but decided it was too hidden. I thought about the bike racks in front of the building, but decided that was too... something not right. So I figure if they can get it out of my locked, alarmed trunk without security or shuttle staff noticing (it took me 20 minutes to get it in, bigger wheels are trickier), then they are craftier than I am and perhaps deserve it more - all I did for it was pay some money.

But WOW am I itching to ride it.

But WOW am I itching to ride it.

i wonder if this isn't what edmonds meant. my first thought was he was thinking security, but then i remembered how much i actually enjoy just looking at a new bike, and smiling like like an idiot, then deciding at 11pm in the rain that it must be ridden right this moment.

congratulations on your new bike!