BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

26 vs 29 is always a big debate. I ride a good bit of single track, and sometimes have trouble on tight turns on my 26... I cant even imagine a 29er in these dense woods.

Ive got Rock Shox on mine, and man, they can be noisy little shocks. They are functional though, and aside from the sound they make, they work well enough.

A lot of singletrack around here can get a bit rocky as well, Id consider trying to pick up something used with full suspension. If youre not racing, you will lose a bit of speed by ditching the hardtail, but you wont regret going full suspension once you hit a nice long rock garden.

Also, if you wait till the end of the season when 2013's are rolling onto shelves, a lot of the time you can get GREAT deals on floor/test models.

I especially like a 29er on more technical terrain. The larger tires seem to roll over rocks, logs, and other trail features with much more efficiency. If you don't have much interest in that terrain I'm not sure you will maximize the advantage of the larger tire. I'm certainly NOT an expert on mountain bikes but this is just what I noticed when making the switch to 29er. Trek seems to have demos throughout the summer, usually at north park, and I think there's a "mountain bike fest" this weekend at boyce or frick. The mountain bike fest may just be a PORC event that doesn't involve demos or any particular bike shop. Depending on your timeframe and their schedule you may be able to demo some different bikes to get a feel for what works for you. I don't know what size frame you're looking for but I have a "medium" (inches...not sure what that works out to) niner. If you'd like to take it for a spin sometime let me know.

For your first bike, I reckon wheel size won't matter much. Both sizes have their advantages and disadvantages, and you'll do fine locally with either size.

As for a first bike, one thing to remember is: the more simple the bike is, the better the components will be overall. That is: spending $600-$800 on a new dual suspension bike means corners are being cut somewhere else. Personally, I'd try to be patient and see what comes along at Thick or Craigslist (or even other shops that might ship a used bike)--you'll get more bike for the money.

Just to add to what Brian said, cheap suspension parts also don't work that well, and are likely to break sooner rather than later. Rigid really isn't that bad, especially with bigger tires.

Don't dwell on the tech specs so much in your case, just test ride and see what feels right. Your desire to bunny hop will eliminate at least half of your list if not all of it... a bike that fits in what I'd call the "fun" category is actually not that easy to find, you just need to test ride until you find the right match.

Also the shimano style vs sram style shifters might eliminate a choice based on preference. What ever the rear derailleur brand is, the shifter brand/style will be. Figure out which you prefer.

Based on specs alone, the Fantom 29er is my choice, based solely on the front fork having lockout (a must if you plan on riding city streets with hills imho). The bikes direct give more bang for the buck, component wise, but you can't test ride them in a local shop either.

26ers vs 29ers

Personal preference... but if your go with a 26", you can probably find a late 90's/early 2000 Cannondale hard-tail for well under $300 and then build it up a bit... I think that would be the best way to go for a first mtb.

There's really no reason to consider 29ers in your budget, as it's not a (relatively) big investment. I'd rather have a 26" than a cheap 29"

Suntour vs Rock Shox

It's not snobbiness, it's the fact that the cheaper bikes usually have cheaper components regardless of the brand. Cheaper bikes usually have suntour, so it has a stigma attached. I'd be more concerned about lockout than brand.

Personally, I think chainstay length is irrelevant for your use, especially since it's just numbers... get out and try some bikes!

For what it's worth, I like the look of the Felt frame and the tapered headset.

I'd definitely hold out on a good used bike. I sold my Gary Fisher Piranha (2008) not that long ago for $400 which is half of what I paid for it. That particular bike is much better than any of the ones you listed and was only a couple hundred more brand new. I took the hit because, frankly, I wasn't doing much trail riding and needed the money to get a better roadbike. Good deals will come along.

Thanks for the input, guys. Brian and John, in referring to cheap suspension parts, are you suggesting that the Giant in the Craigslist ad (the only full sus bike I linked to) is cheap or is that more of a "general rule" type of statement? I wasn't really looking for full suspension, and I certainly wouldn't buy one from Bikes Direct for $500, but I've been reading reviews/forum posts about the Yukon FX (from the ad) and was under the impression that is was well liked and performed above it's price tag.

kelw, thanks for the offer! That is what I like about this message board. I may contact you when I get a little further into the process. And I think the fest this weekend is rides only. No demos.

Oops. Headloss, I didn't see your post (hadn't refreshed). Thanks for the good info. I wish I had known about your Piranha!

ETA: Why does bunny hopping eliminate my list? Weight (29ers)?

I would go talk to Thick Bikes, they will be the most sympathetic to your price point and may have something used. Finding something new that you're not going to destroy in a year is going to be hard at that price point. Craigslist will have some deals so keep looking there too.

Get a single speed with GOOD platform pedals (replaceable metal traction pins, fairly thin profile) and skate or mtb specific flat-soled shoes. Way cheaper for a quality bike that won't go to shit inside of a year and it's way better to learn on. Nothing to think about but the trail, and it will teach you how to to maintain your momentum and pick lines without you even realizing its happening.

Also I will be starting up Friday evening casual (all skill levels but strictly no drop and very beginner friendly) rides in frick again this week. Probably meeting at the tennis courts at 6:30 and tailoring the ride to whoever shows up. I will have a loaner bike or two available each week on a first come first serve basis.

Weight, geometry, etc. I'm not saying that they wouldn't work, just that you don't know until you try them out. I've been hunting for a good cyclocross bike and many of those haven't been as playful as I would have liked. Bikes have personality, you need to find the one that fits.

So let me get this straight. Am I to believe that those bikes I linked to will be "destroyed" after a year of riding in the manner I proposed? And if that is true, how does one identify a bike that won't go to shit within a year vs one that will? I'm not trying to be combative, I just want to understand.

Oh, and thanks, Colin. I actually considered a single speed for about 10 minutes. However, one of this bike's duties will be to pull a trail-a-bike (and maybe a trailer as well), and well, kids are heavy. I think I'll need gears. And I may show up for your Friday ride sometime. Not during a Flock week, though.

Oh cburch, you lead those rides? I've been thinking of coming, I just ride around solo in Frick for the time being, and I'm pretty new to singletrack.

I bought this thing last November:

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/sport/29er_sport/marlin_single_speed/#

It's heavy for a singlespeed (31 lbs), but I've crashed it probably 20-30 times now, and I just pick it up and keep on going. Wheels stay true, chain never drops, no derailleurs to jam, break or bend.

My experience is that with lower end components, it's a crap shoot--maybe something will last, maybe it won't. You can take two paths:

1. Buy a less expensive bike with the knowledge that you'll want/need to replace parts.

2. Buy a more expensive bike with the knowledge that parts will break or wear out, but they should last a reasonably long time (with good performance).

I took the first path with my commuter, and the second with my MTB (SS). My commuter has very little original equipment on it, aside from the frame, fork, and seatpost. The shifty bits were low quality, and I replaced them quickly. Other stuff has broken/worn out. I have a pretty deep parts bin in the basement, though, so it wasn't a big cash outlay to replace stuff.

I bought a used MTB via Craigslist. It's rigid, so the other parts are all very high end, and by golly, nothing's broken in three years of thrashing on it.

YMMV and all that.

There is an existing ride, its not mine. This friday will be the first one i have done in a year or so. life kind of kept interrupting, but I'm taking control now.

The other beginner ride is the one that rick lithgow leads, but its REALLY beginnery. i'm more trying to do something like the old DORC rides we used to lead out of Thick (the Thick ride got really fast and is a great ride for people that really want to push themselves with some really high caliber local riders) something for everyone. i'd rather see beginners mix with more experienced riders and get everyone out on the same trails. its how you learn and its way more fun than riding the wide jogging paths. we don't do anything really advanced where there isn't a bail out option or easier line and we go at the pace of the slowest rider, breaking whenever anyone needs to.

"So let me get this straight. Am I to believe that those bikes I linked to will be "destroyed" after a year of riding in the manner I proposed?"

No. They will not be destroyed.

As I understand things, expense comes from one of two things. The more expensive parts are either more light weight, or more rebuildable. I suppose a third added expense is added complexity (like a remote lock out as opposed to a simple lock out on the fork itself). When in doubt, check the reviews at mtbr.

I only emphasize the need for a lock out based on my own experience. The shocks will absorb some of your energy when riding up hill if you can't lock them out. I ended up returning my first mtb because the fork drove me batty (it was a Marin... thank goodness for the REI return policy).

@rzod

I have no knowledge of what happens to components of MTBs during actual MTB riding

I do however have knowledge of what happens to low-end components. Depending on how much you ride, which your MTB doesn't sound like it will be ridden too often mile-wise, things just get worn out

On my hybrid, which uses the same components a stock MTB in that price range, most original things broke.

I've gone through several rear-derailleurs. Eventually the rivets holding them together become so loose, they can't hold to a specific location. They'll probably get bent first though

The chains wear out, the cassettes wear out, the chain rings wear out, overtime I cracked the brifter housing by holding on to them with my thumbs, the pad adjusters on my disc brake rusted into a fixed position (which admittedly could have been avoided with more frequently lubrication)

I'm assuming higher quality components last longer

I'll throw out an alternate view (as a dad with kids and a shiiteload of other responsibilities - edit; I only mention that due to the trail a bike comment, don't mean to imply that others don't have equally enormous responsibilities). Don't overthink it. You have a realistic price point, you won't get a Ferrari, but you probably won't get a piece of junk either. The bikes you have linked look nice. Get something you like and ride it in the woods whenever possible. If something breaks get it fixed. If you get so into the sport that you trash it in a few years, you will want something new anyway, and you will then know infinitely more about what you want at that point.

I recommend gears, especially if the thing needs to fulfill various roles you describe.

And if that is true, how does one identify a bike that won't go to shit within a year vs one that will?

I may be exaggerating a bit. But I speak from some experience. My Specialized hardtail which was the most money I ever spent on a bike has been amazing. I crash, ride rocks, been taking it off drops and I have only had to replace the bottom bracket after 3 or 4 years of use. The fork did fail but the warranty took care of the repair and it's been great ever since.

Before that I had a cheap Univega (old brand, but sold in bike shops) that I ruined after a summer of riding with friends who knew how to mountain bike. The suspension fork sucked too. I would have been better off without it.

To pick up on edmonds comments a little - When I was younger I bought a low end MTB that I rode on many long, aggressive trips through the woods. I had to replace a few things over the years, but nothing outrageously expensive.

My buddy bought a very high end MTB that saw some fire roads, but otherwise sat in his basement most of the time. He might have put new tires on it because “their tread is awesome” but not because the old ones were worn out or anything. My cost per mile (and smile) on that bike was minimal; his cost per mile was much more substantial.

Don’t get too caught up in the SUV mentality that most consumers do. Are you really going to push the limits with this bike? If yes, buy as high end as you can afford. Are you going in the woods occasionally and are more likely to walk around obstacles as go over them? Then don’t worry so much.

@rzod

To go along with their points, if the parts break, they're not that expensive to replace. If you buy a bike that comes with a decent frame (like probably most of those ones you're looking at), you can probably get a lifetime of use out of it in some capacity.

Plus, even a twice as expensive bike can still come with the same stock Shimano parts

A few points from your original post:

That giant is nice. Proven geometry and the maestro suspension design is a good one. The parts on it are a good bit nicer than what you'll find on a new $500-$600 bike. If its still around when you have the money it would be well worth checking out.

26/29, each has it's strengths and weaknesses. 29 will smooth out the trail for you a bit, they roll over small obstacles more easily and maintain momentum better than 26. There is a reason people that race or spend most of their time sitting and pedaling like them so much. 26 accelerate faster are stronger and more durable at the lower price points and are more playful, much easier to jump/throw the bike around etc. there is a reason gravity riders have been so reluctant to give up little wheels.

Rockshox/suntour isnt a snob thing but at your pricepoint you are dealing with mid to high end suntour or low end rockshox and there isn't much difference. When you get into higher Ed stuff that's where you'll see the suntour stuff fall off the map.

Geometry will affect the ride a lot and is exactly what you should be looking at since pretty much everything else at this pricepoint is identical or interchangable. Shorter chain stays will make for easier jumping and a more playful bike. Slacker head angles will slow the steering down a bit and make the bike more stable on the downhills. Shorter stems and wider bars will also give you a lot more control than long and short. Top tube length will affect how stretched out you are when riding, longer will mean your more bent over in a more race like position and shorter will have you a bit more upright. I prefer shorter to learn on because it's easier to move around on the bike when riding over technical terrain. Wheelbase will also have a big impact on handling, the shorter it is the quicker the bike will turn, but the less stability it will have at speed. Standover is obvious but important if you plan on trying new things as you WILL fall over, have to put your foot down to save yourself, stop and look at features, get off and say "fuck that!", etc. when the components are all the same this stuff is what will make the difference. Pick something nice and in the middle until you have a better understanding of what type I riding you will really want to do.

Bikes direct is a thing I would avoid. Some people really like them but they cut corners in odd places to get the bikes to look like better deals than they really are.

Higher end parts are more reliable, not just lighter. They are manufactured to much tighter tolerances from much better materials and generally have better engineering and improved technology. That said there is a definite peak on the price/performance curve where you start getting rapidly diminishing returns for the money. As a general rule it's usually the product line ine or two steps down from the top tier stuff. After that you are paying for slightly reduced weight and exotic materials that while completely awesome dont really offer a huge boost in performance (when you are at that level though you are generally looking for every tiny advantage you can get to win).

Yeah, what cburch said about geometry being the deciding factor.

When I bought my Trek, I rode a few different frames from Focus, Specialized, Trek, and Giant. They all felt very, very different. While road bike geometry has standardized to the point that one frame will ride almost identically to the other, that doesn't hold true in the (relatively) young world of mountain bikes. Fortunately, most companies stick to a design philosophy, and upgrading from one offering to another from the same company (in the same category, don't expect a downhill bike to feel similar to a hardtail XC bike) was just a difference in weight and components, and not handling. Ride them all and then decide, even if it's just 5 minute ride on pavement. You will feel the difference.

My thoughts if I remember correctly:

The Spec and the Focus have very quick steering, and felt almost whippy (for a 29er).

The Trek steering is slower, but more controllable IMHO. It feels more like a raked out chopper bike due to it's shallow headtube angle.

I honestly forget what I thought of the Giant.

Edit: And by Giant, I meant Scott. Replace all the references above...

cburch +100500. Agree on an every point.

Thanks, all! Excellent info. Edmond's, Marko's and Pierce's posts echoed what I was already thinking, so I'm glad someone had the same ideas. I appreciate the differing views as well.

Regarding the Giant: the listing says it is a medium, which is a 17" according to Giant's website. I'm 5'10" and think I would probably get a 19" if I had a choice. Could I make a 17 work? New stem or something? Also, what sort of things should I look for when checking out a used bike?

I have a Giant XTC 29er and can't speak highly enough of it. If I were you I'd at least consider a 29" bike - much easier to roll over log piles and such that are pretty common in our area, and very stable on steeper descents. You might check out Giant's Talon: http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/talon.29er.2/9041/48916/ The ride would be different than my bike, but I have been very impressed with the value that Giant offers.

On sizing I am 5'10" (31" inseam) and ride a medium (17/18") MTB (I think a 19" would be on the large side for me). Any shop would help you with sizing though, so I'd try bikes out and have the sales staff advise you.

17 would be ok. A little cramped on long pedal fests maybe, but wider bars would solve that better than a longer stem. Also it would be a lot easier to throw around on the rough stuff. I generally go a size smaller than recommended by manufacturers when I get a mountain bike.

Also to pierces statement about a bike at double the pricepoint still having the same "stock shimano parts" I feel obligated to remind people that shimano makes some completely awful cheap stuff as well as some mind blowingly amazing high end stuff. Too many people see the name and just assume its all the same stuff.

Wouldn't your size differ between a 26 and a 29?

Aspects of the fit might vary a little between them, but generally if you ride a medium 26 you would also want a medium 29 (that said, try before you buy).

@cburch

Agreed and don't want to give somebody the impression that Shimano doesn't make quality stuff, but on most bikes under 1k I've seen, they have Alivo/Deore stuff, which is the bottom level stuff

It's also important to point out that brands don't make much of a difference either. People at work always ask me what brand of bike I ride at work, which depending on the day is either 2007 Trek hybrid or a 30 thirty year old Schwinn, but component-wise they're basically the same.

My Trek has the same $30 derailleur any brand of bike has that's sold in a shop, but I think people compare it to a Madone.

Actually, the $500 bikes generally have Altus level components which are lower quality than the Alivio found at the $700 bikes. Both of which are significantly lower quality than the Deore level stuff found on the $900 stuff and the SLX level on the $1100 stuff.

Alivio to Deore represents the same kind of jump as Tiagra to 105. One is the top of the recreational line and the other the bottom of the performance/professional line.

Just meant to edit that Deore combining with Alivio. I think I've seen Deore hubs, but not derailleurs.

So rzod, choices galore

Everything above Alivio is technically Deore. There is Plain-Jane Deore, SLX (replaces LX), XT, XTR, but its all the Deore family. They are starting to remove Deore name from the branding but its still there (most notably on the XT line).

Personally, I like SRAM's mtb components more anyway. At least the drivetrain stuff.

What about at the lower price points? I was just thinking, maybe I should buy a $50 Deore derailleur rather than buying Altus's from Kraynicks' every two years or so

You can't mix and match SRAM and Shimano derailleurs and shifters. They have different shifting ratios. That said you'd be a lot better off with a Deore or SLX derailleur than an Altus. If you are only going to upgrade one component in your whole drivetrain it should be the rear d.

I bought a Giant Talon 29er 1 from West Liberty Cycles back in April, and I love it. I paid between your price and the MSRP of the bike. Components are SRAM, and it has awesome hydraulic disc brakes. I commute on it, but with a quick release removal of the rear rack, I'm ready for the woods. It is the most fun bike I've ever had. I would definitely check with Rob at West Liberty to see if he can hook you up close to your desired price.

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/talon.29er.1.2011/6966/43133/

@Pierce, I've had the same Deore RD on my hybrid since the first owner who bought it in 2005. I've been happy with it. My GF's bike has an SLX and I really haven't felt compelled to bother with an upgrade. I think you'd be happy with the Deore.

Regarding the SRAM vs Shimano, I definitely prefer the SRAM ratio, but I can't stand the shifter design.

That said you'd be a lot better off with a Deore or SLX derailleur than an Altus. If you are only going to upgrade one component in your whole drivetrain it should be the rear d.

This. I upgraded the Altus rear mech on my commuter a few years ago to a Deore, and I haven't touched it since.

@brian: If that's the LX mech you got from me, it had a couple years in service on my rando bike even before it hit the Kona.

I try not to be a parts snob, but there really does seem a pretty big jump in durability and quality as you move up the lines. On the first bike I built up, I put on a brand-new Alvio takeoff gruppo...got a couple years out of it, but pretty much everything was shot by then. The aforementioned Deore rear mech, on the other hand, has been in (ab)use for what, 5 or 6 years now?

@Dan: Yep, same mech. Quite a reliable bit of equipment there.

So, after all this talk, out of curiosity, about what is the price point for a good all mtn ride before you enter the realm of diminishing returns? Say, a light hardtail 29r?

the sweet spot is probably about 2-3k

What is the SRAM equivalent of Deore? X5? And after reading this thread, am I correct in thinking that it is probably better to spend the money up front and get a bike with that level (or better), because cheaper components will wear more quickly and need to be replaced more frequently, eliminating any perceived savings on the original purchase? And that it is also cheaper to get the "good" components with the bike because said components are more expensive to buy off the shelf?

Ha ha. My Stumpjumper three years later costs $2200 retail. I paid quite a bit less than that on an end-of-year deal.

Well it only saves you money if you use your bike enough for the lower line parts to wear out enough to need replacement

That's what I originally meant by stock; whatever the bike comes with from the manufacturer, I think bike shops will hopefully? cut you a break on getting upgraded components, which they'll install at the shop

Rzod, a $600ish mtb is perfect for someone just getting into it. Ride it till you kill it and you'll h e a better idea of what you really want once it's dead. There are so many different categories and so much variation within each category that you coul very well drop a couple grand on exactly the wrong bike if you do it now.

And yeah x5 would be equivalent.

Colin, do you ride with 10 speeds now? I'm still back at eight, and I think I read playing with the chain gets more annoying with 9 and 10 speeds

My downhill bike is a 1x10, my trail bike is a 2x10, stef's dh bike/my slopestyle bike is a 1x9, my xc bike, stef's xc bike, my bmx cruiser and my dirt jumper are all single speed. If you want anything that isn't super low end you'll have a hard time not at least going 9spd. I'd just go for 10spd as the 9spd stuff is starting to get phased out pretty aggressively. 2x10 is the new 3x9

This seems like a good deal, no? If you are interested in double-boingy bikes.

Just a thought, since summer is half over. 7Springs resort clears out their mtbs every year (I believe). Watch their website for some decent deals on used full suspension bikes.

You'd be wrong. Our downhill rental fleet is as small as we can let it get and we have no idea right now if we are going to have budget to replace it next year. Also the only full suspension bikes we have are 8" travel downhill bikes, very purpose built and no fun for trail riding.

And our season is only 1/3 way over. We're open until the end of october.

So maybe I'll start devising a mental project for the winter. I'm thinking carbon hardtail all-mtn 29r frame (Trek winter sale?), mid travel lockout fork, but set it up with like 35 mm cross tires so I can ride 20 or 30 miles to the woods. I'm more interested in fast trails than log jumps and drops. Crazy?

You don't want an all mountain bike then. You want a trail bike. All mountain is bordering on freeride/dh

Cool, trail bike. I don't have all the terms sorted out. Thx.

Good to know I've got until October to get out there.

Thanks for clearing things up!

I'm definitely sold on singlespeed after riding Colin's Chameleon in Frick. I've only done 3-4 real mountain bike rides now and am still debating if I enjoy it better than road riding. I actually can't recall having more fun on a bike, ever.

I also have a relatively low budget and am hoping I can get a nicer starter bike in the 400-600 range without gears and upgrade to something nice in a couple years.