BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Wow. Sorry to hear that...but glad you're okay.

Well I think that's a first.

Had a bottle thrown at me Thursday night by that convenient store on Second Ave in Hazlewood. The hooligans are clearly back out

(Didn't call the police because I had a paper to write and turn in before midnight)

Yeah if the kid would just take my money and anonymously bring back my bag with everything else I wouldn't care... but yeah I don't think that's gonna happen.

no way. how horrible. who the hell does that? i guess that kid does that. ugh i hope your things turn up. those bags are not cheap, either. to be honest, a few months ago someone in east liberty was approaching me trying to get my attention. the person seemed like she was on drugs or just not exactly normal and i ignored her and rode away through a red when it was all clear. i guess you can't trust anyone. sorry.

Sorry to hear this. Alas, one more reason to worry about being slow.

that sucks so much! really sorry that happened to you.

So sorry to hear that Tricia! That is ridiculously brazen and audacious, I'd want his head. Are you okay?

how does this affect your enthusiasm for our planned ride to ohiopyle and back this weekend? I have extra (nonwaterproof) paniers if you want some.

why didn't I just hop on my bike and run the guy over?? No, I ran down the hill like a complete idiot. Man, I hate how irrational we get when under pressure.

@Gordon, I think I'm not up for an overnight. But a long ride in the rain is just fine. I have my other pannier, but not the rain covers I just got shipped to REI (along with a new sleeping pad).

I'll reconnect with you and Quinn tomorrow.

What sort of sleeping pad was it? If it was a Big Agnes Air Core, you can borrow mine.

generic REI brand...but that doesn't matter. I don't feel up to bike camping in the rain.

Helmet cams.

So sorry this happened to you. Be sure to call the bank a.s.a.p. and have new credit/debit cards issued immediately. Even if your bag gets dumped, some other person may find it and try to use/sell the stuff.

Even if the kid took your cash and returned everything else, I hope you would have still reported it.

It's just not acceptable to go up to other people and grab anything from them.

Some super sketchy guys were closely observing me remount my panniers at the Penn/S Braddock Walgreens today, and commented on them.

Shaky, runny-eyed dudes in pairs who frankly seemed like they were fresh outta rehab or on prison work release. It made me super uncomfortable, even though no crime was committed.

There are some group homes in my neighborhood, so I need to be more careful and hope these guys keep a handle on their impulses.

[edit]

Also, if your keys and ID are together, it would be a good idea to change your house locks a.s.a.p. You can have a locksmith do it, or get new locks at Home Depot (probably cheaper & not too hard to install if you have basic screwdriver skills). Even if you just change deadbolts, you'll be safer. PM me if you want to do this & need help w/ it.

I know this won't help Gimpac,but within the last few years, I now only cycle by myself in very select neighborhoods.It's really too bad,but I also know I'm much more inclined to get assulted or robbed in high crime neighborhoods such as Garfield,Rankin,Hazelwood,parts of East Liberty and Parts North Side.I've learned that also from personal experience. Hope they catch this guy who robbed you,and glad you weren't physically hurt.

Lenny, I'm sorry but I beg to differ. I may have been robbed, but within a minute I had two people come to my aide. Try that in Shadyside.

Thanks for your concern and I'm glad I wasn't hurt either, but I hate that people use this as a wedge for certain neighborhoods. ANYWHERE, ANYTHING can happen to you. It was night and dark, I was going slow...I should have been watching behind me instead of concentrating on the hill. I know now to be more aware in general, and particularly after I'm approached for money. But this won't stop me from cycling in certain areas...I've been cycling alone at night in this area for 5 years and nothing close to this has happened. I can see your point, but sorry that just pisses me off.

Thanks Pseuda, I did have all of that taken care of, cards cancelled, phone changed to an old one, and my housemate changed the locks. It's just really annoying...I'm going to ride around this morning and take a look around some dumpsters and such to see if the bag was trashed... I wish the police was more helpful, but they would have had a better time if I had a better description.

oh and I did report it...some lady helped me call the police... I have a report(?) number... I think I gave them my number but said the phone was stolen too...should I call to follow up and say I activated another phone if they need to call with more developments?

WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED:

I noticed what happened. Calmly give a two-second count while taking details of the guy. Mount my bike and fly down the hill after the dude. Jump off my bike and tackle the guy. Grab my bag while I use my helmet or freshly retrieved u-lock as a weapon crouched over my bike like a mother lioness protecting a cub, grab phone and call 9-1-1.

Nope, did the idiot running with her bike thing.

Though there was another male with the kid off to the side, I have no clue where he went...so that might not have been smart either. I just should have been more aware after approached. He would not have done that if I was watching my back.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would much rather read about this in your words than a news reporter's. People are crazy and desperate people can be dangerous. You are right that these things are less likely when you are paying attention, but once the situation starts the criminal's adrenaline is flowing just as fast. If he had a weapon, this could have been worse.

It sucks but it's just stuff. Keep the important stuff on your person.

Thanks Morningsider. I know, I'm glad it wasn't worse and it is just stuff. I still have my bike!

Keep the important stuff on your person.

That's the problem with tiny pockets on women's shorts these days. Also it was pouring down rain so I had everything in the bag to protect it from being soaked.

Yeah. No matter how hard I tried, it came off kind of "Monday-morning quarterbackish." Glad you're ok.

I believe this is why we need to increase the number of cyclist on the road. Hearing about cyclist being harassed may make you feel like giving up the bike but I feel the opposite is true. The more of use that are on the road the safer it is. I am still going to bike in East-lib and Garfield, not that I'm fearless but because we need to stick together. Btw I glad your ok and It was smart not to chase him down who knows what the guy was carrying.

This royally sucks chicka

Glad you are ok. I'll keep my eyes peeled since that's my hood now too

Thanks all, the bag is black, Axxiom brand, with a shoulder strap, red tape around the rack attachment parts. There is/was a rolled up sleeping pad in the gray bungee part at the top of the bag... The bag has a drawstring enclosure with a flap that clips overtop...a zipped front pocket and mesh side pocket.

I had a brown leather wallet with a Steelers logo (I know, I know, it was on sale!) with about $40 and my credit cards/etc (cancelled), a black camera bag with shoulder strap with a Canon SX2100 Powershot inside, my bike computer, two new yellow Camelback rain covers I was going to try to use for the panniers, locks, pump, random bike maintenance stuff, keys (replaced lock to house), my LG Ev Touch (cancelled) and a change of clothes. I think that's about the inventory if you see any of those scattered about East Lib.

Probably lost about $200 - 300 right there.

That is totally ridiculous. frigging sucks. I ride around with a cable lock and U-lock all the time, I guess I'll start locking my panniers to my bike when I'm on it. I'd been wondering about that lately. Very VERY glad you're ok, and it's just the pannier the brat took.

will insurance cover any of it? Or is it all too far below the deductible?

That is total ass.

@GimpPAC did you get my PM? I can lend you waterproof panniers for your Ohiopyle trip.

That is some bold-ass shit. Wow.

@sloaps, Hey thanks anyway, I do have my other pannier and that should suffice for an overnight...though I think I'm really only up for a one-day long ride, there and back.

Please take this in the way that it is intended.....

I wanted to thank you for posting this.

It makes me feel less ridiculous about the way I feel about riding the Chateau Trail, or through parts of the North Side, alone at or after dark. I just try not to have to do it.

The root of my concern is my limited speed. I just feel that if confronted, especially on a hill, I'd have a hard time getting distance between the challenge and myself. Could be that the challenge is a drunk, an animal or a hostile youth.

Maybe we need to organize some sort of rational "self defense for cyclists" training program. U-locks, helmet cams, etc are all good, but what I really need is some training on how to build some explosive speed when the need arises. Hard to do when riding uphill after a long day.

what I really need is some training on how to build some explosive speed when the need arises.

IANAC, but the only way I can think of to build some explosive speed at need is to, well, start doing some explosive accelerations on a regular basis. Good opportunities exist for such on most commutes; for example, full stops at stop signs, followed by accelerating as quickly as possible, will likely help get your legs more used to sudden bursts of effort.

On a hill, the ability to comfortably and rapidly make a controlled U-turn or other evasive maneuvers is probably your best bet...you may not be able to outrun 'em up hill, but you almost certainly can lose 'em if you can get yourself facing the other direction.

in running my favorite term is "fartlek", swedish for "speed play". Like intervals, but more whimsical.

I do it when walking the dog, mostly because I can't run as fast as she can for very long, but I think it's good for her to really GO, so we mix it up and she seems happy about it (she won't run off leash even at a park, doesn't quite get it yet). I strained a muscle, but recovered. Ease into it.

On my own I used to sprint between lamp posts, or signs, or one driveway to another, then when I didn't feel like dying I'd start sprinting again to some other arbitrary point in the distance. It'd work for cycling too, I think, but I've never trained for anything on a bike.

I like the evasive maneuvers idea... People on here have me pretty convinced that some form of mountain biking would be best for training for that, really knowing the limits of myself, my bike, and the combination. Just need to take an opportunity.

*makes note to tackle Federal again, only with a few rapid U-turns*

@GimpPAC This is shocking to hear and distressing for all of us. I'm glad you're relatively OK.

only steevo can accelerate uphill away from an adolescent on foot.

It was more that I'd grown comfortable in my setting, which is fine, but I guess this is a sober reminder that one should always be on their guard in particular circumstances.

(Edit: but it was pouring down rain! The hooligans shouldn't be out in bad weather dammit...)

Usually when people ask for money and I deny them, they back off. I didn't think anything of it. I guess I'm just lucky he only stole my bag and didn't clobber me on the back of the head. Next time, I will be looking behind me. I feel I would be able to evade if I were only aware of the situation... AND maybe I'll keep a u-lock in arm's reach just in case.

That said, a self-defense for cyclists class sounds like a great idea. I'm wary of carrying any sort of weapon in the case that it might get turned around and used on myself. I like the idea of evasion/body as weapon....like a bike ninja!

UPDATE: I just went around the area and checked all the dumpsters/alleys I could find. Didn't see anything. Next step: cancelling checks (yeah my checkbook happened to be in there too...doh) and trying to get a new driver's license.

@ GimpPAC Yeah if the kid would just take my money and anonymously bring back my bag with everything else I wouldn't care...

It sounds to me like this was more an anger-issue crime than a for-profit crime. Sure, the money in your wallet and such was a nice bonus, for him, but I'm guessing his main goal was to anger and intimidate you.

Good luck on the outrageous number of organizational tasks that you need to do now.

It sounds to me like this was more an anger-issue crime than a for-profit crime.

@Mick, I'm wondering what about gimpPAC's description causes you to think this, or if it matters?

@GimpPAC - A u-lock in a heckuva good weapon. You won't kill someon with it and it is a powerful dissuader.

Also if they don't appear daunted by it? That, to me, is a clear sign that it's time for me to flee.

Another natural bike "weapon" when you are moving is to ride directly at the person(s) threatening you. Don't worry about them moving - only one of you has to worry about that.

I did that with one punk in the middle of 4 lined up across Reynolds next to Frick once. The results were gratifying, indeed.

But that was back when street punks had no experience with adults on bicycles.

who knows what it was? I don't claim to know the inner workings of the average inner city kid, let alone THAT inner-city kid. Either way, he's worse off than me. I'll be fine, but he could someday end up in jail or dead at the worst scenario if he continues on this sort of path. Damn shame.

(PS: I never said on here that he was Black/African-American, but he was...along with his bushier headed friend)

too bad you didn't have an iphone. you could have used the "find my iphone" feature.

about locking your bags to your bike rack or each other: if someone tried to pull them off while you were riding, you would probably be pulled over and hurt, but i guess nothing would be stolen.

sorry to keep topping this, but I just found a spot on the Pittsburgh Police's website where they keep an "incident blotter".

Looks like mine came up here: http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/police/blotter/blotter_thursday.pdf

It occurred in Zone 5 at 20:15.

Yeah about that iPhone... I called Verizon to see what I could do about my phone and they were ready to give me an early "New Every 2" upgrade...(mine's up in two months) I wanted an iPhone, but they said because they are on consignment-based contract with Apple that they can't give early renewals. SUCK. So I activated an old phone.

Maybe I'll have to look into locking my panniers. Thanks Stef.

FWIW, there's a locator app for android and its free IIRC.

Definitely sucks but glad you're OK... stuff is just stuff, not worth getting jacked up over.

Glad you're ok, Trisha. I have a set of non-waterproof Nashbar Panniers that you are welcome to have if you want. I never use them, and I need to buy a better set for my next trip.

Sheesh, I just read this. I'm glad you're not hurt (you definitely did the right thing). As you know I only live a few blocks from you. If I see the dude with your pannier I will call the police.

How horrible! I'm sorry about the loss you've suffered, but I'm glad that otherwise you are OK.

hey there,

i walk this road to work every day, and i bet we have passed each other at times! i dont take it home from work, because i find i am totally harassed by kids after school lets out (sucks but it's happened more than once)

however, that means i might see your bag someplace and I will gladly pick it up and let you know.

i know where the kids that usually roll up on me live... not that it would help, and there are a ton of kids in that area, but ill just look more carefully some mornings. Do you know the guys that hang out at the corner of penn and graham, the older dudes? You can tell them what happened and they know everything that goes on in the neighborhood. I work right there and they are super nice guys and yell at kids when they litter

Anyway, might be worth mentioning it to them. i dont know their names, but they sit inside quiet storm sometimes, and i know the one dude is always talking to the crossing guard in the mornings around 830-9.

sorry this happened to you and glad youre okay. i cant believe the kid went for your stuff while it was attached to your bike!

also that gas station is NOTORIOUS. i wouldnt be surprised if some of your items might be attempted to be sold in or around it

I'm sorry this happened to you and am glad you are okay. SMDH

I was just wondering after reading this thread, would it be legal to shoot the attacker in this case ? I think its pretty easy to get a concealed weapons permit, but does your life has to be threatened or can you shoot someone (maybe in the leg or something) if they steal your stuff?

Just incase you aren't joking: No, you can't shoot human beings because they take your stuff.

I'm with dwillen. OTOH, I wonder what would happen if this situation was posted on a pro-Castle-Doctrine board, what discussion would come of it?

I think this is PA's proposed Castle Doctrine law. In theory it applies to bicycles, but not exactly.

The person against whom the force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered and is present within, a dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle; or the person against whom the force is used is or is attempting to unlawfully and forcefully remove another against that other's will from the dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle.

So you could shoot someone trying to abduct you or your passenger, but otherwise he'd have to be trying to get inside your bicycle (whatever that means).

You could also shoot and kill someone if you believe "it is immediately necessary to do so to protect [yourself] against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat", if the bad guy displays or uses a deadly weapon of some kind.

Sorry to hear your stuff was stolen, gimpPAC.

I am not a lawyer. Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, as I understand it, the OP was riding in traffic on a public road when this happened. She had no way of knowing at the time of the crime that they wouldn't attempt to do anything worse, or by trying to rob her they weren't putting her life in danger from auto traffic.

That said, the OP can't turn and fire at them as they run away. At least in Mongomery County, PA, she couldn't. In July 2009 there was an attempted robbery and bikejacking on the Schuylkill River Trail at Norristown. The cyclist fired his legal to carry gun at his assailants as they fled.

http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2010/01/22/schuylkyll-river-trail-shooting-final-update/

So put this in car terms. I'm lugging up a hill, maybe it's a manual shift and I needed to downshift a little sooner, but I'm just chugging up it at little better than a crawl. Someone says something to me as I go by, which I ignore, then that person snaps off my radio antenna and runs away with it, or maybe the left rear window is open and my just dry-cleaned suit is hanging there and he grabs it and runs. Isn't this pretty much the same thing? How would this be handled? How *should* it?

Buy a new suit. And the next time you drive through that area, you'll either downshift sooner or roll up your window.

Seriously, you don't want to shoot a bullet at another human being for stealing your stuff.

In the situation you describe, you should make a call to the police, ideally immediately from your cell phone. Making a chase after them for your suit would probably be unnecessarily dangerous and opening fire in public on someone fleeing the scene would be a whole lot of bad and also probably illegal.

one time I was stopped in my car in a sketchy area and a guy knocked on my window and asked for money. I shook my head no and he walked away. My doors were unlocked, and I didn't want to insult him by pressing the power locks. I should have, because he came back and opened up my back door. I think he just did it to annoy me, as he then just walked away.

Even in that situation, I think it would be out of line to pull a gun on him unless he was to continue to try to enter my car and/or steal from me.

Unfortunately these muggings take place much too often. A close friend here in Philly was pushed off her bike last week and her bag stolen out of her basket. It's messed up.

In regards to what can be done in the future, if you, or others have an iPhone, I highly recommend turning on the 'Find my iPhone' feature. It's a free service that Apple offers for iPhone/iPad users to locate their devices from a computer. Turning this on provides you with precise GPS coordinates that could help the police locate the stolen items and perpetrator red handed.

@morningsider, re: Stu's post:

I don't think Stu was asking is it ok to shoot the guy. I think the point was, is this car analogy of the OP's event valid, and if so, is the perpetrator - if caught, guilty of the same crime. The law, as described seems to suggest "entering" as a threshold, but if we accept a bicycle as a legally-defined "vehicle," then what constitutes "entering?" And I think Stu's point is that pulling a pannier off a bike is entering, and therefore a violation of that law has taken place.

At least I think that's what Stu meant.

In that case, the "and is present within" verbiage would mean this specific doctrine does not apply.

However, if the guy was attempting to remove you from the vehicle (I would argue for the bike as an occupied vehicle as far as I could possibly argue), then all bets are off.

Keep in mind, you will be living with the consequences of your actions. If you're lucky (and a bad shot), so will the perp.

Dead men tell no tales - their mothers do.

@Morningsider - FWIW, please don't take my post as advocating shooting people in those circumstances. I was simply trying to clarify what I perceived Stu's meaning to be.

I haven't been back for a couple days, I had a great bike ride up North, which really helped me to clear my head.

Thanks Scott and Caitlin for looking out for my bag and for the tips.

As far as guns are concerned, hells no. I'd even be concerned about pepper spray...to be turned around and used on me.

Even after my fantasy of being "biker ninja", I'd still feel bad if I severely/permanently injured the guy if I took after him and ran him over with my bike. Just doesn't seem to line up with the crime...if he was trying to hurt me I would definitely consider a U-lock to the head. Other people may have their own opinions and laws may be different, but I'd rather keep to evasive/preventative measures if possible. Nothing is worth the possibility of me severely injuring/killing another human.

Fact is, if I didn't keep my back turned, I probably would have been able to anticipate this. It's not THAT easy to take my bag off of my bike...I must have been really out of it to not notice right when he starting pulling.

On another note, I need to see if I can find a small, waterproof bag with a shoulder strap that can be synched tight against the front of my body, for stuff like wallet, small camera, phone and keys. This wouldn't have been so bad if I could have had all of this on my person, but it was pouring and the bag was the "safest" place for those items. Any suggestions?

Read "shoulder strap" NOT "waist belt, aka: fannypak"

I was more trying to make the analogy between vehicle and vehicle, not whether deadly force should be used. But that said, if the analogy is valid, and Castle Doctrine holds that such force is reasonable (not whether it is morally reasonable to do so, an important distinction), then I think we are clear to go on to the next point, whether pulling a pannier off a bicycle being ridden is "unlawfully and forcefully entering...an occupied vehicle". I say it is; IANAL. Right in the first sentence of the bill it says "It is proper for law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others."

That WDUQ story quotes the bill's sponsor, Rep. Scott Perry, as saying "it’s hard to establish how one forcibly enters a bicycle." Well, if this situation does not fit, I don't know what would.

I keep my wallet and phone in my pants pockets at all times, if I'm expecting rain, I put them in a couple of ziplock sandwich bags. Women may not always have the pants pockets option. I can think of numerous ways in which womens clothing should be designed differently, but that's a whole other story.

I think "Seal Line" or a company like that makes little sorts of camera sized dry bags that can have a shoulder strap, check REI or the website, would be in the paddle sports area.

In regards to muggings and all that, I've thought about carrying two wallets, one dupe and one real. Carry the dupe wallet in your back pocket with a couple bucks and an expired credit card or two. Keep your real wallet in your front pocket. Hand over the dupe and don't worry about all the crap of carrying a gun on you, canceling your credit cards, and losing a ton of money. I haven't actually done this yet, as carrying two wallets for an unlikely event isn't very motivating, but I'm sure if I ever got mugged I wish I'd have followed through.

Kinda an aside, but I know my pannier is designed so that the strap that hold the roll top down can also be looped through the rack frame before it is latched. Essentially locking it to the rear rack. Since this happened to you, I have been taking my time to make sure I secure it to the rack in this manner.

Granted, someone could unclip the strap, but would probably only know to do that after at least one failed snatch attempt.

In college, the street I lived on (and walked down alone and very late at night regularly) had a mugging spree for my last three semesters. I made it a policy to carry three scrunched up dollar bills to throw at would-be muggers. Theoretically by the time they picked them up and realized what they were, I'd be sprinting down the street. Never had the chance to try it out (see elsewhere mentioned "look of death" I seem to unconciously wear while moving about, or luck). Wouldn't apply in gimPAC's case.

I find that, though slightly uncomfortable and damp (very damp when biking), my sports bra and its intended contents can secret away a surprising number of necessary items.

After a bad situation last fall, I have been carrying a “marked” bill in my wallet- a straight black line on the front & my initials and zipcode written in small letters on the back. I keep this bill in with my other cash, but I try not to spend it. This way if my bill shows up in a suspect’s pocket, it’s probably the same guy who took my stuff. This doesn’t help with prevention, but it sure would have helped the cops press charges in my case.

I forgot to mention that I was only going from Oh Yeah! on Highland. I was literally a 5 minute ride from home, so when it's monsoon-like weather and you are almost home...it's easy to be single-minded and let down your guard.

Lesson learned: don't let your guard down. Specially at night. And invest in a bigger bra size (ejwme - my "intended contents" wouldn't hold up very much! lol).

@Marko, or perhaps carry a bunch of counterfeit fifties. Not to spend, but geez, if they get stolen, maybe the Secret Service would take THAT seriously. It would be pretty easy not to accidentally spend them since they aren't twenties.

New product? Camelfront.

That sounds like horrible advice, Lyle. It isn't only spending the counterfeit bills that is a crime, it is making them and possessing them. The wording in the law specifically mentions "intent". In the case of the mugger, he had no intent in the counterfeiting, and all that would be on you.

I imagine if you had a bunch of counterfeit fifties, you would end up on the wrong end of some federal counterfeiting charges, and your assailant would get a nice deal for his testimony regarding the origin of the fake currency. I could also imagine getting arrested over some silly mixup, and having the police find your honeypot currency. Explaining them to the federal prosecutors as some elaborate anti-mugging strategy might not go over so well.

Eh, I think it's only making and possessing them with criminal intent. There's no fraud in having something stolen from you. There have been a whole series of events involving some guy who makes these elaborate counterfeits and then offers them to people *as works of art* in barter for some other goods or services.

If I ever were arrested in some silly mixup, I'd use this thread as my alibi.

The po-po busted me with a counterfeit fiver once; you don't want the hassle. Innocent til proven guilty - right...

@edmonds59 - LOL, but seriously thanks for the recommendation on the Seal Line...once I get a new credit card I'll be snapping one of those up. But yeah I have other stuff I need to replace... I need to check my credit card company to see if I have built-in insurance that might cover theft...better get on that.

Funny you mention Seal Line. They are actually sponsoring National Bike to Work Day so you can actually win one. http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/bikemonth/contests.php

awesome segue.