BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

It's a question we'd all like to know...

I have a mtg at 8:30am on Friday about this very subject. I'll report back.

Scott,can you also find out, if and when, they plan on extending the trail beyond the Old jail??

SCOTT, BRINGIN US ANSWERS

well, this is on the other side of the ohio, but friends of the riverfront is working on expanding the station square trail to connect to the montour trail and neville island:

Ohio Riverfront Montour Connection

Friends of the Riverfront and our partners are just now beginning to meet with individuals, community leaders and various stakeholders to explore the possibility of connecting the Heritage Trail downstream along the Ohio to the Montour Trail. This connection will increase access to recreational amenities, open the possibility of alternative transportation to and from places of business and provide access between neighborhoods. Additional information will be available shortly.

If they can connect the Montour Trail to Downtown, it will essentially create a 60 mile mostly off-road detour to get past Sandcastle's blocking of the Great Allegheny Passage.

60 mile mostly off-road detour

That is one HECK of a detour.

well. .if you are riding the GAP.. whats an extra 60 miles right?

If they can connect the South Side trail to extend from Station Square to the Montour Trail it would be fantastic!! We still don't have a trail that takes us outside the city limits.I believe when this occurs we'll go from one of the worst to the very best biking cities in the country.Hopefully it will happen soon!

The "60 mile detour" comment was a little felicitous and more than a little snarky towards Sandcastle but the statement still stands. In riding a number of trails, I have found that the single most important thing to having a successful trail is being contiguous. The longer the trail, the more miles and communities that you can go through without getting onto a road, the more active and successful the trail. The Passage really took off when the Big Savage Tunnel opened and it was one long trail between Boston and Cumberland. Get past Sandcastle and connect those segments between Downtown and McKeesport and things will really take off. The C&O continues to suffer because of the Widewater washout. I just got back from riding the Erie Canalway and it was mostly empty because a quarter of it is broken up by road segments.

I think that given the choice between riding the 9 miles of roads from the South Side to McKeesport and riding another 60 miles of off-road trail of the Montour to connect to the Great Allegheny Passage, a significant number of people would take essentially the extra day of their vacation to keep off the roads. I know I would.

hey scott did you hear anything on this matter?

i've ridden past the casino trail and it looks like it's just about ready to re-open. it's cemented and there's some rumble bricks, or bricks with raised bumps on them near where the new trail begins between the casino and science center, as if to warn a cyclist that they are entering a pedestrian heavy area... but it looks nice, way nicer than the glass strewn parking lot that was there before.

The trail is going to re-open on August 9th which is the official opening day of the casino.

Hooray!

what are the chances that they'll rig the machines to pay out a bit more in the opening weeks in order to get people hooked?

is that legal?

did anybody create a bike to the casino ride for bikefest yet?

haha

I rode by last night and it's all looking really great. Any word on bike racks right along the trail? I have a feeling they are going to try to shove us into the parking garage and there will be bikes locked up on the railings and benches.

We're in touch with the Casino re: bike racks.

Just heard that there's a chance the trail could be open on August 7th now. Definitely by August 9th. Maybe by August 7th.

If they make it easy to lock up your bike I think they will get a lot more trail traffic. The trails is done as far as I can tell, they are just working on some landscaping.

I was by there last night too. It is definitely getting close to being complete.

It is nice in the early AM, now that they've cleared most of the construction debris; the wide, smooth, multi-lane road makes ya feel like you're in another part of the world.

On the down side, the number of traffic lights on the way down Beaver to the Science Center has now increased by 3

again, will be be gambling by bike at this? come on people ive never been in a casino.

They should have one of those slot machines where you can win a car, except make it win a bike. That would be cool.

yeah, and back to my question...are they paying out more in the beginning? or at least giving free drinks or something?

Aren't free drinks par for the course at a casino?

I heard a really, really awesome talk at a computer conference (YAPC|10) by a guy who who worked for a tiny company that managed to get itself licensed to have slots in Vegas casinos. The amount of regulation, at least in Vegas, was stunning. This company had to pay the gaming commission to audit their software.

Free drinks is a Vegas or perhaps a Nevada thing.

i dont know, i thought free drinks also came at atlantic city......but i like i said, i have no frame of refernce.

In atlantic city, if you take the greyhound there, the casinos will reimburse you some money if you get dropped off there. the only time i've ever gone gambling was there. 15 bucks for the round trip ticket from philly, the casino gave me 7 bucks back. used that to win 60 bucks. went to a bar, bought me and my friends beer, then lost the rest. spent $2 more on nickel slots, lost it. then called it quits.

Doesn't PA law make giving drinks away for free illegal? Or did they write in an exception for Casinos?

haha. i wonder how many exceptions there are for casinos

Pretty certain drinks will not be free for a number of reasons.

really? that sucks. the only reason i'd go there is for the free drinks. or to deliver junk mail.

Well, I rode through there today, there's no real obstacle to the trail re-opening - just that there were still a bunch of guys working out there, mainly landscaping and stuff.

I did not see any bike racks along the trail, hopefully either I just missed them or they're elsewhere. I'd certainly be more likely to stop in from time to time if they had somewhere to lock up.

There is a somewhat new rack on the river side of the science center on the patio outside the cafe. I am not sure the casino was thinking of cyclists coming there, but maybe they will put one up later. It only took CSC 17 years, but I do not know when the trail was put in .

I can confirm that the trail is now open.

The detour signs are still up but can be disregarded. There are also some small bump strips when entering/exiting the Casino part. Not anything major though.

Lou from my staff was in conversations with the casino re: racks. Last we heard the casino was "going in a different direction." glad to hear the trail opened early. Tom Baxter from Friends of the Riverfront is the person who reported to me that it wasn't opening till Sunday. Strange that both the trail and bike advocacy orgs were kept in the dark about the official opening date.

wont they need bike racks when all the cars are repo'ed?

If they don't install racks they can expect dozens of bikes locked up to whatever they can find. Benches, fences, railings and trees. Good move if this is the case.

rumor has it that they will be installing racks this week

"Free" drinks aren't free in Vegas. Someone is keeping a very close eye on you to make sure you are actually pumping money into a machine... Good luck getting more than one "free" beer sitting at a nickel or quarter slot machine.

Basically, if you pump $20 into the machine they might give you a beer. Or you could save your money, buy a case, and give yourself and all of your friends a beer.

Just got back from Vegas and the cocktail waitresses don't care how much you are spending so long as you are at least playing and give them a tip. Maybe your experience was different.

I went to the viewing on 08-07 of the Casino. I rode my bike and was disappointed when coming upon a sign that reads "Private Property Walk Your Bicycles". Hope this is temporary.

I approached the valet parking attendants and asked where to park my bike. One told me to go into the garage and park it in the valet area. Before entering the garage, I was confronted by police and asked where I was going. I informed him that I was instructed to park in the garage. He looked at me confused and asked "are you going to ride up that ramp". He must have thought the incline was part of the Dirty Dozen. I proceeded. In the garage, I was confronted again with confused look from security. Again, I informed him that I was instructed to be there. I locked my bike to a pipe outside the 2nd floor elevators and proceeded into the Casino.

i went for a ride today and also came across the "Private Property Walk Your Bicycles" sign. i was so disappointed. i rode the trail on thursday or friday morning and didn't see any signs. if this sign stays up i'll be pissssed! private property shouldn't be taking away from this city's bike trails, however adding to it as a (new) member of the community...

Private property? Ridiculous. I can understand a yield sign asking cyclists to slow down but a private property sign? Won't last long if it isn't a mistake.

the trail is not private property

I ran across the same friendly sandwich boards. Classy. My first thought was, "Too bad I'm on my rigid. If I was on my hardtail, I would give serious consideration to hucking off that."

Plus, look at how thoughtful they're being with parking.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09220/989493-66.stm

Nice neighbors, indeed.

You would have to be a nut case to drive down there to gamble during home games.

So, what's the deal here? (pun intended) Sounds like we have two distinct issues: (A) Parking in the garage, and ( Merely riding by on the trail.

I think with (A) we have to get like 40 or 50 of us to patronize the place, via bicycle, all arriving at different times, all versed on what snakeguy did, and all having brushed up on our non-aggressive confrontation techniques. Eventually they will have to realize that cyclists are real, honest, trustable people, who want to do business with them.

I think with ( we steadfastly refuse to adhere to arbitrary, asinine, unenforceable rules. They need to remove the signs, and change their minds.

I see no conflict in philosophy between (A) and (.

Come protest these signs ("Private Property - Walk Your Bicycles") tomorrow at noon, which is the grand opening of the casino. We want our trail back, and we want it now!

Y'know what? I just had to make an exception to my "bikes everywhere" agenda. I don't give a rat's tushie if the casino allows bike parking. Casinos are a blight and a pestilence and the less we do to support their business the better. I'm hoping this is the first casino ever to go out of business quickly, though based on the lines at the lottery terminal near my office, there will be plenty of customers.

The trail blockage, now that's a different story. What is the legal status of the trail? My understanding is that these are usually in fact private property, and the trail organizations just own (or lease) rights of way. Since all property in this country is owned by *somebody*, who owns this trail?

Not to be an instigator, but what would they do if you "rode" your bike through the trail? Would an under paid, overweight security guard try to chase you down to tell you to get off your bike? OK.

Just seems that it is a pretty unenforceable thing. Similar to the walk your bikes sign at eliza furnace trailhead at 2nd and greenfield.

I saw the sign yesterday and was really mad. How can the trail be private property. If this doesn't change I agree, a protest is in order.

from the county tax website:

the city of pittsburgh owns parcel 7-L-31, which is the narrow strip of land from the west end bridge abutment to the southern terminus of lighthill street.

holdings acquisition company lp of chicago, IL, owns parcel 7-L-32, which extends from Reedsdale street to the river and is between lighthill street and north shore drive.

it appears as though the trail through this property is on private land. Not sure if the previous owners allowed for an easement to the city for the trail, or if a previous owner purchased the trail parcel and then consolidated all the parcels into the current 12 acres that is recorded at this time.

interesting sidenote: Don Barden's PITG Gaming sold the land for $1 to the current owner.

Link to the Real Estate Website

Re: sloaps info.

If true, this is outrageous.

Sounds like another sweetheart deal from our wonderful mayor. Why doesn't he just give away the whole North Side.

http://www.post-gazette.com/downloads/20090809casino_details.pdf

Point 4. A trail runs through it. The casino’s esplanade, a fancy name for a walkway, will be part of the North Shore trail system. It will be available to walkers, joggers, bicyclists and other trail users starting opening day and will remain open, even during casino events.

We win?

As far as casinos go this place dosent even look inviting.

I saw that in the paper this morning and wondered about it.

The sign doesn't say we can't go through, it just says we have to walk our bikes.

Is that how they're getting around it?

So the next question is, is there in fact an easement and what are its terms? Where is this filed? The registrar of deeds? I just pinged FOTR and will let you know.

This is utter B.S. The casino has broken yet another promise to the community. First by stating in front of the planning commission that they would make every effort to keep the trail open during construction and then stating in front of City Council that they would maintain the connection and keep it open for trail users. Never did they say that we would have to walk our bikes.

What's hilarious is the casino and Northside Leadership wanted to put together a press event with the casino and mayor to officially "open" the trail. No way on earth is the casino going to be allowed to use the bicycling community for their benefit if they're suggesting we have to dismount and walk our bikes through their property.

If they have a press event we need to all show up to protest.

yeah, we should show up to the press event and act like we're cool with it. then protest... they'll never see it coming! muahahahaaha!

311 the Mayor's office?

I sent a 311 and will gladly protest the press event if nothing is done about it. All one has to do is the amount of traffic from every possible type of user on the trails on weekends to see what a great asset they are to the city.

I'd love to show up to the press event and make a scene about how they aren't really opening the trail if there's going to be a security force enforcing some arbitrary rule that we have to get off our bikes.

I hate that damned casino. Worst looking building I've seen aside from industrial complexes. It looks like the architect studied soviet-bloc style buildings and then hung a banner from Kinko's on the side. Should have never been built - I hope it is quickly put out of business by WV casinos and their table games.

if anyone gets interviewed about the trail reopening, i hope they point out that it wasn't supposed to close in the first place.

That is completely ridiculous if this was really allowed to legally happen. Did the protest materialize? I didn't hear about it until now.

I registered a 311 complaint:

I went to the viewing on 08-07 of the Casino. I rode my bike on the Three Rivers Heritage Trail and was disappointed when coming upon a sign that reads "Private Property Walk Your Bicycles". My hope is that this will be changed in the near future as my understanding is that this is a multi-use trail owned by the city.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the ribbon cutting for the reopening of the trail was postponed because the Casino knows we would have showed up in protest of their “Private Property” signage.

Has anyone talked to FOTR or the City about how the trail was funded in the first place? Were federal funds used? If so, does the grant agreement say "for pedestrian and bicycle use"? Generally, if you use federal dollars to build something, you are obligated to maintain it in usable condition.

You can not sell a property that has a federally funded improvement without repaying the prorated federal "value" of that improvement back to the feds.

If federal money was used, and if the use provisions of the funded improvement has been changed, the feds get reimbursed, or the use terms get reinstated, or that's how it is supposed to work. They could, of course, claim "safety" but in the absence of any accidents or injury to date, that would be hard to support.

At the casino property there was no defined trail, right? It was a parking lot.

The sports and exhibition authority has a trail along the allegheny and in front of the carnegie science center - which is marked as parcel 8-J-98 - and terminates at the casino property.

After the casino property the trail is "city of pittsburgh."

I don't think the city had any ownership or easement for a trail through the casino property, prior to Barden purchasing it. If the city did have a right of way, there would be a legal document and not a memorandum of understanding - which is a formal handshake.

friends of the riverfront should have known, yes?

I ran into the signs this morning. I was very disappointed, because this is my route to and from work. I've been dodging the construction mess for so long, looking forward to having trail access restored. I called the 311 line, but the operator didn't know anything about it. She took my number and said that she'd call me back.

I'm also very disappointed by the city. It seems that the "bicycle-friendly" push amounts to painting a couple of lines and sharrows here and there, but doesn't include actually improving bicycle access or safety anywhere.

http://twitter.com/DowntownPitt is asking for your experiences at the casino this weekend. Let them know how you feel about the trail being closed to cyclists. The more people that know the better.

On Saturday, the security guard told us the same thing. It is now private property as it was purchased by the holding company for the casino and that cyclists will not be able to "ride" through because and I quote "It poses a danger to the customers of the casino."

Sure it does, but no more so than any other section of that trail. It seems to be working just fine for PNC park, the boat docks, kayak pittsburgh etc. Asking cyclists to dismount is silly, a yield sign would do.

not even station square has says that crap

I agree. We were all quite annoyed. I ride through Station Square several times a week and there is never a problem. Why would this small section of trail be any different.

I called up the casino at 412-231-7777 and registered a complaint with them, they gave the typical line that it's private property. Is there any documentation available to show that they're obligated to provide a bicycle path? If we have specific information regarding this, I think it could benefit our cause.

Contacted 311, they've been good about responding to items in our neighborhood. Will update if I hear anything.

Does anyone have photos of the signs? I put a post up on the Pittsburgh thread (334 pages!) on Skyscraper Page, a website devoted to urban development. The users on there are very into multimodel development and want to see this trail develop. I'd like to add some photos if possible.

Hmmm...unless the area is a "business district" (Hah!), the sidewalks on the side of the casino away from the river are fair game, correct? They can no more dictate traffic on those sidewalks than I can in front of my house...

If I were involved in casino management, I'd much prefer cyclists taking the nice, wide path by the river, rather than having to cut through traffic of the parking garage to get to the sidewalk. That's just me, of course.

In trying to find the MOU, I found something humorous and telling. Strada, architects for the casino have 3D conceptual drawings for the casino, including one of the path, with a cyclist riding his bicycle, not walking it. Apparently the architects didn't design for the 'private property' sign or maybe there's no 3D models of a person walking their bicycle?

Master Plan Available at: http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/cp/html/majestic_star_casino_development.html

Page 9 of the master plan:

Under "Key Aspects of the Public Space Design"

"Provides a continuous riverfront trail that traverses

the entire site and connects to the trail at the

Carnegie Science Center to the East and the city’s

existing riverfront trail to the West. With the planned

development of a new West End Pedestrian Bridge, this

trail will enable access up and across the Ohio River

to the West End and South Side. This path will bring

a variety of recreational users into the site including

pedestrians, cyclists, rollerbladers, runners, etc."

Also, page 16 of the master plan shows more bicyclists riding their bicycles along the trail.

page 9 and 10 of the Site Amenities and Lighting Review depict a day and night scheme with a dude walking his bike...

:'(

Check tomorrow's Post-Gazette

Ravenstahl is on the case...

I noticed that too, but I don't think it negates riding their bicycles. In the master plan and drawings, it's assumed that riders can do either, walk their bicycles (maybe they're parking their bicycles?) or ride it. Also, page 22 of the master plan says that bicycle parking and shower facilities will be provided. Are either of these in place? I noticed on the first page that Bike Pgh is working on parking, I hope shower facilities are an option, especially for the workers.

Hey, sweet. Who's responsible for this?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09222/989915-100.stm

Cyclists upset about casino's 'no ride' policy on trail

Monday, August 10, 2009

By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Cyclists should be able to ride past the Rivers Casino, Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl said today, in response to a chorus of concerns about a walk-your-bike policy along that section of the North Shore trail.

Cyclists who endured the lengthy closure of the trail during the casino's construction were upset to learn, over the weekend, that they had to walk their bikes in front of the slots venue.

Howard Slomer, a 66-year-old retired computer analyst from Reserve, who bikes area trails several times a week, said he was dismayed on Sunday to see signs requiring that cyclists walk their bikes past the casino.

"I cannot easily walk that distance in bike shoes and I also have a bad knee that makes it difficult to walk and push my bike that distance," he said. He said that when he ignored the signs, a security guard told him to dismount, but he biked on.

"Many folks in the bicycle community are upset, as well they should be, because that trail should be a point where people can continue to bike," said Mr. Ravenstahl. "I would say that we share the frustration of the cyclist community with that issue. It was our understanding that that would be an area where cyclists could continue to bike.

"We're going to work with the casino to try to get that rectified."

Casino spokesman Dan Fee said he was aware of the restriction, but did not know if it is temporary or permanent. Nor did he have any immediate information regarding the reason for the restriction.

"It is private property," he said. "I don't know what the substance of their complaint is."

Within the city, the trail runs from Washington's Landing to Western Penitentiary.

More details in tomorrow's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Rich Lord can be reached at rlord@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1542.

First published on August 10, 2009 at 1:54 pm

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09222/989915-100.stm#ixzz0No3d5VEB

It just doesnt make sense to me at all. As many people that use that trail for recreation, you would think, from a financial perspective, that they would welcome cyclists and pedestrians alike.

How many potential customers would they have of people simply riding the trail and when they go by the casino simply think, "I will stop in for a drink and some slots." Without racks to park bikes, and with a general bad attitude towards cyclists, they are just alienating all those people. I am not saying that these people are their primary demographic, but I also think its dumb to overlook them.

Perhaps the casino manager had to wait behind a cyclist on Washington Blvd.

netviln, I don't think they realize just how many people ride those trails for recreation and would stop as they were riding by.

Ka_Jun, It's also nice to know that the city does receive the 311 comments. Thanks Rich Lord!

that is seriously just ridiculous

Wow, it's great to see that the city has our backs. Although it's frightening to hear Casino spokesman Dan Fee say, "It's private property, I don't know what the substance of their complaint is." With a view like that, the casino could say they don't want anything to do with the trail and completely block access.

That quote... GRRRRRR....

I suppose it would be irresponsible and reckless to ride through there as often as possible in protest. Tempting though.

It just seems to me that it is representative of the state of society for the most part. Just because you are legally permitted to do something doesn't mean you should. Common decency is no longer common. The golden rule no longer seems to have any place in modern society.

Dan Fee, Rendell's campaign spokesman?

Update:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09222/989915-100.stm

Looks like we can bike again

Wow! I take back the unkind things I said before. Looks like the city and county are listening.

i got the feeling this took everyone, even the casino, by surprise.

Might be nice to drop Wendy Urbanic over at 311 a note to say "thanks" & the media folks who covered this, too. I mean, what, 4 days from the initial contact w/ this trail impediment and the Mayor weighs in publicly w/ a pro-cycling community statement in the PG?

They had a story on either KDKA or WPXI, tonight too. Spokesperson Matta's statement, "It was only for the opening, b/c it would be crowded." Yeah, I'm sure. Nice spin. Liked the shots of all the cyclists riding through.

Surprising amount of media coverage on this.

http://wduqnews.blogspot.com/2009/08/bike-signs-near-casino-are-changing.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09223/990014-53.stm

City Planning, especially Steve Patchan, and the City Solicitor's office (legal) should be thanked too.

Oh, and while we're posting videos check out: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/20351167/detail.html

They got it down before I had a chance to think of a good anagram for "Private Property. Please Walk Bikes." I figured that marquee style sign is just asking to be re shuffled. Anybody have any good ones in case they put it back up?

How about: Private Property: Bilk Weasel Speak.

Bike Protest Peak. rivers Weaps yall.

P

leftover "P" and weeps is misspelled, but its a hard game.

Irrepressible polka kept peta wavy

Score one for the bike bloc!

i cheated on my anagram by the way

Just wanted to thank BikePgh for the work they put in on this, too. Good stuff!

Do you think they are getting the point that bikes are good for business? Also, Bettis Grill had about 25 bikes outside.

There were at least 15 bikes chained to the fence right along there Sunday morning. I wouldn't assume they're sophisticated enough to even consider it, but I wonder if making the 'Bike Parking' so visible when compared to a bike rack tucked away somewhere is actually a benefit. Everyone riding/jogging/whatevering along the trail is confronted by the idea of stopping in to the Casino for a while.

I also wonder if the hubbub about the 'Private Property' signs wasn't a net plus for both the Casino and the trail in general. More exposure for the opening (Let's face it, to the non-trail-riding public the publicity wasn't even all that negative) and plenty of the people hearing the news reports probably had no idea there was a trail there.