BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I'm not really expert on that neighborhood - but it that the same proposal as Elaine Kramer's design? http://www.nextpittsburgh.com/city-design/busways-neville-trail-makes-something-out-of-nothing/

Unfortunately, I think it is simply a mistake by Google. I know of no plans to advance development of this trail, and I certainly don't know it to exist today. For most of the route, it parallels the Gold Way/Melwood routing anyway.

From Google MapMaker (http://www.google.com/mapmaker), it looks like someone named Jason added the trail. (Anyone can edit the map using Google MapMaker. The edits get reviewed but there's no way for the reviewers to tell if the changes reflect reality.) Non-existent trails shouldn't be shown on the map. They screw up routing and mislead people. I've entered a complaint (using "Report a Problem" link on the bottom right). In the past I've found complaining about bad trails works better than trying to fix the map myself directly. It would be interesting, BTW, to create a city, or at least a trail network, in some uninhabited area. I would imagine a group of people could cooperate and get Google to add it. Has anyone done this yet?

I'd love it if the hazelwood greenway trail was on gmaps.

Elaine Kramer's proposal (and that's all it is) is impractical. Her route follows an old street to the floor of the valley; there is no practical way to get back up (it's essentially a cliff) and the rail tracks are right up to the cliff. This goes on until about the Herron Bridge. Yes, you can probably cantelever something along the cliff. Maybe if you win one of the more substantial PowerBalls. A reasonable thing to do would be to connect the two ends of Melwood over the gully. This would still be expensive, but it would get bikers off Gold Way (which I think is a good thing). The other option is to revive the existing road; it would mean connecting the two ends of Neville. But I don't see this happening: it will need a bridge over the tracks and probably a bunch of right-of-way stuff. Big hassle, and bucks. Now, letting bikes on the busway could work... Anyway, this topic was discussed at length a while back, complete with vintage photographs and (I think) topo maps.

@benzo, if it's real, you can simply add it yourself, using MapMaker. Or someone else could.

At one point, I checked and there was a substantial trail going off from the Oakland dead end of Melwood. I don't know how far it goes or if there is a way to get from there to the strip. When I click on Mark's link, I see a "proposed trail" to the Oakland Neville St dead end. I see no other trail through there. Is it possible that there is a viable trail there, that "Jason" has traveled on and put on the map? (Leaving aside that whole idea that "viable" is different for different people. My rule of thumb is that I won't ride down a path that I can't ride up.) @ jonawebb, Is it possible that a complaint took a real trail off the map?

We've looked at the area at either end, and if there is a trail connection there, it is well hidden. So I don't think there is any danger of removing from the map a route that is actually viable at this time. Even Google identifies it as "planned" which is nonsensical. We don't ask them to illustrate the location of "planned" roadways, so why would trails be different. At SPC, we've adopted the strategy of identifying only those trails that an individual could use THIS weekend, or identifying as proposed those trail segments that are likely to be under construction or complete within 18 months. Anything else is "planning" level work. We monitor it, and track it, but don't show it on maps of "available transportation systems."

Google Maps now shows some future roads at the Civic Arena site with dashed lines, but they don't route traffic on them. I think those are a lot closer to being built than the proposed Oakland-Strip bike trail, though. I'm going to try to remove the false trail using MapMaker.

Argh. I deleted this trail from MapMaker six months ago, it should've stayed deleted.

Is this "Jason" amongst us? Perhaps he could Speak and share his thoughts. We'll be gentle. There is a footpath off the end of Melwood. But it's my impression that at this time it would be best suited for the more technically-inclined MTB riders. Can anyone confirm? Remember, we're talking commuter and recreational infrastructure. I sincerely doubt that Kramer walked the street though I concede that it has mystery and a genuine attraction. You know, maybe something like that radiator in Eraserhead.

This Jason is among you. First off, I would like to say hello, as I am a recent member of BikePGH. Google mapmaker has a feature where something can be added as "planned" what that does it keep people off of the road, but show to people that it is in the planning process. I have done the same around the Civic Arena and the Almono site. Any comments?

If things were actually 'planned', I might be okay with it. But to call these anything more than vague handwave proposals is a stretch--the Oakland-Strip 'trail' hasn't even gotten as far as getting funding for a feasibility study to see if it's even possible.

OK, Jason. I didn't realize that the "planned" designation worked differently for routing.

The planned designation will not route people there, but I can see that this trail on the map made some people over-excited to see the trail being developed. It seems to me, that it would be the best practice to remove the trail.

I've edited the trail on Google Mapmaker to be reviewed so that it can be removed. I never intended for this to be appeared like it was done in malice, this is simply a problem google mapmaker has.

Thanks, Jason. I suggest following the SPC's rule that Sara posted above: Don't add a feature to Google Maps unless it's expected to be open in the next 18 months.

@Jason-PGH, first: welcome to a new BikePgh member! and a Pgh cyclist who took the initiative to add mapping! (I really appreciate that). I didn't see any malice, just somebody participating and helping and the population responding and discussing - which is (to me) how these processes are probably supposed to work. But my bottom line is: I so appreciate your stepping up and making the local google-maps as valid as possible. They're a huge source of info for "out-worlders" especially since Pgh is now the GAP-trail terminus and it's really important to present usable info that doesn't lead them astray. I hope we get to say Hello out on the bikes soon Jason.

Thanks everybody, I hope to continue mapping. (Also, be safe out there, I almost got hit by none other than a cement truck today on the E. Lib Blvd. Bike lanes)

Here is the discussion from June, with photos and topo maps: http://localhost/mb/topic/opening-abandoned-section-of-neville-street/ My preferred bike route from Oakland/Shadyside to the Strip is Millvale Ave - Lorigan - Sassafras. Lorigan's slope is gentler and better for climbing than Herron's.

What's the method coming up? I see a couple of one-way-coming-down streets. Looks like: Sassafrass -> Neville -> Lorigan, bend left to say on Lorigan, then (?) L Slate, R Essex -> Lima, jiggle RL at Mathilda to stay on Lima, then R Millvale. That looks good on a map, but I have no idea how well it would work on a bike.

Back streets in bloomfield were not made for easy grid style navigation. It would be easy if you could go the wrong way on Edmond st for a block, but the street is too narrow with parking on both sides. Looking at ride with GPS I got a few bits of info. It seems though that when I mapped it out on ride with GPS that the elevation gain is about 148ft gain following the proposed path on the hillside and a distance of about 1.34 miles to center ave from liberty and herron. The route I picked (following proposed route on google maps) is about 4% grade at most, and that's only for a very short section (but mostly under 2.5%), if we're starting mostly from scratch, the grade could be made relatively smooth. The sassafrass/neville route is about 185 ft, 10% grade climb on lorigan (but it's short). Distance is about 1.63 miles to center ave from liberty and herron. This is also very confusing to navigate. Liberty ave bike lanes through bloomfield are about 175ft elevation gain and about 5% grade climb on liberty ave bike lanes and 1.7 miles to center ave from liberty and herron. It's relatively easy to navigate, but it's a long climb at a decent grade.

1) I'm not sure the Lorigan-Sassafras-Neville route makes it as a bikeway. The pavement is rough, the Lorigan climb is a pain and the streets thereafter are narrow and decidedly residential. It won't be a throughway. As a Shadyside-Strip connection you might as well take Liberty. More to the point, Melwood etc is just more direct. 2) Herron is not as bad as it feels (cf. M. Twain re R. Wagner' music: "it's is not as bad as it sounds"). It has the virtue of being a relatively short pain. Dobson/Brereton/28th is a very decent alternative. None of its climbs are all that onerous (unless you somehow keep going up Brereton). Maybe they could work a bit more on the speed limit enforcement... I think there's two issues here: a reasonable route between Oakland and Strip, and a pleasant trail between the two. I think we started to talk about the latter.

I think the trail makes sense with the goal of getting more people on bikes and making the city more accessible to new cyclists. It's shorter, the grade will likely be lower than almost all other options, and It's easy to figure out.

I was looking over the Mayor's Capital budget for this year, and on page 166, there are $30,000 allotted for a "Neville Off-Road Bike Trail" http://apps.pittsburghpa.gov/mayorpeduto/2015_Capital_Budget_FINAL.pdf

Jason, I so admire anybody who can make it to page 166 of a budget document. Nice find!

My guess is that budget line item is for a feasability and / or environmental study.

For the record, it's part of a larger item titled "Consultants for Plans and Studies", which "Provides funding for planning and design studies for projects that promote the well?being of the city's neighborhoods, business districts, and green spaces." (also, I'm quite sure that it'll take a lot more than $30K to build out that sucker, if it's even possible....)

If this was 1880 and you were building a railroad, and had a mountain range to surmount, you would do one of two things: 1) Find the lowest pass, and figure out the easiest grade up and down from that pass; 2) Find the narrowest spot in the range, and tunnel through. In our world, the analog to #2 would be a Trondheim-style bike lift. Ensure easy access to the bottom and top of the lift, and let the machine deal with the hill itself. Just that, like a tunnel, cost is definitely an object, so you want to make it as short as possible. That said, where would you put a lift?

The other day curiosity (actually guilt) overcame me and I did some superficial checking of the area. I noticed that you could probably easily build something from the end of Melwood to Gold: there's a lot of flat space on Gold's downhill side. The area below it would actually work great for MTBs. An elevator from Herron (up Harding Way) sounds like a good idea. Ruthven->Flavian could work (and give more elevation).

A trail would be awesome there, but I think it is far from reality, especially with all of the bike lanes being put in the strip :(