BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

yikes. dude looked like he was going fast. like these threads, but what about making one catch all thread for them all?

Obviously the driver had seen other ambulances not stopping at stop signs or wearing helmets...

Wow that is very scary that this dick was so oblivious that he pulled over AFTER passing the ambulance, verifying that he has no situational awareness at all.

+1 on liking you posting these

Good idea for a catch all thread. Can you rename this thread to something like "Oblivious PGH motorists on video" Erok?

Done. it keeps the original url tho

cool. thx!

I saw a silver Tahoe pass my daughter's school bus this morning.

The bus was stopped to pick up the kiddies. When the driver turned off the blinking red lights, the Tahoe pulls around it in the oncoming lane (just a residential street). The bus starts going, then brakes and hits the horn. The Tahoe paused, then sped around the bus.

All that to get forty feet to the stop sign. Followed by another stop sign a block away. Followed by a light another block away.

This video came up as a related video after yours.

What a turd. On a side note, glad to see that someone else uses the word "dude" when upset with bad motorists (and probably just in general, too)

If anyone wants to make this stuff public, heres your resource

https://twitter.com/#!/PGHCantDrive

last night , with my rei dividends and a 20% coupon, i ordered a contour roam. there has been too much hate surrounding the 4 foot law, and at least "two too many" stories about psychotic drivers (click to view the original chilling tales by nick d and evandiamond) that i want a little more protection. also, i seem to encounter a real idiotic move a week, even if im not actively endangered. all that put together means im probably going to have a few vids on this thread in the future.

i couldnt find a mention of this on the forums, but do you think drivers behave differently when they think theyre being filmed? theres a market for fake cctv cameras out there, with the idea that they might dissuade a potential robber by striking the fear of prosecution into them. then again, getting behind the wheel can turn some of the nicest people into nasty raving lunatics, so who knows...

It could also be renamed "Quizbot swears at motorists"

To be in the continued position of finding an alternative reason the car continued besides apathy, inattentiveness or ignorance...

He may have been focusing on Quizbot, who was in the line of sight of the ambulance and he may have been driving faster than would allow him to safely stop by the time he saw the ambulance pulled out into the intersection

He also seemed to have pulled over after passing the ambulance, allowing it the potential to pass him

Can we have a thread for courteous driver videos too?

I feel like some violent people are much more likely to attack in order to get the camera and destroy the evidence.

nick: touche', i had not thought of that. along those lines, you may never know who is packing heat until its too late... as if the 4000 pound internal combustion weapon wasnt enough

I have some clips to add. I just have to edit them.

It's amazing what you'll find when you turn your helmet cam around, like pickup trucks following you in the bike lane, or fellow cyclists cutting cars off and almost ramming into your rear wheel.

I should try that. I may not want to ride again though.

@pierce: you have got to be kidding me. The driver was focused on his cell phone conversation. Clearly not me, nor the lit up and loud ambulance pulling into the intersection. Enough with the bad driver apologies.

He pulled over after "HOLY SHIT THERE'S AN AMBULANCE!!!"

Even if the driver was focused on his cell phone conversation, does that make him blind and deaf? What if he was focused on a conversation in the car or with a hands free device? Would you still be condemning him for not stopping as fast as you would like? What about the blue SUV in front of him?

I don't understand the purpose of continually posting these videos. I guess you're looking for sympathy or an acknowledgement that drivers do things differently than we'd like. We know that drivers act different than we'd like to.

I get frustrated as both a motorist and a cyclist. I guess what I find troubling from your videos is that you're coming from a position of judgment. I would find it extremely frustrating to come from the position of "this person is an idiot" every time I see someone do something I would do differently.

Furthermore, if that's your default position, when you actually have a chance to talk to somebody and communicate why you're upset, from what I've seen so far, you yell at them and an opportunity to get your point across is lost. This also may create additional animosity between the driver and other cyclists in future, which then somebody else has to work out with the person later.

Did you notice that the time between when the car could have slammed on his brakes and stopped and when he passed the ambulance was three or four seconds? The ambulance would have to wait those seconds anyways until the vehicle was stopped.

I'm trying to find out what radar gun they're using in this video from Chicago. Would be pretty great to recreate this locally.

http://www.activetrans.org/blog/rburke/video-captures-excessive-speeding-chicago

I don't think the driver is doing anything differently other than not paying attention. The ambulance is in the intersection and you can clearly hear the sirens even on the shitty helmet cam's microphone. Two cars go through the intersection in front of the ambulance and there's a large gap between them and the truck in question, there was more than enough time for the truck driver to stop and he should have.

Scott, your link is dead.

Link works for me.

@pierce Ambulance is visible at the 2nd second. Guy in SUV crosses intersection at the 8th second. 6 second -- this is more than yellow and then red on a traffic light (most of them). 35 mph ~ 55-56 k/h or 15 m/s. If car stops with acceleration -1g (-9.8m/(s*s) it would take 1.53 seconds. Add reaction time 0.2 and mechanics delays -- 2 seconds. And it's leaving us with 4 seconds for a decision. Traveled distance ~ 12 meters or 40 feet. All numbers shows that guy had enough time and distance to stop before intersection as required by the PA vehicle code. The fact that driver stopped after intersection shows that those 4 seconds were used for processing some different kind of information than it is supposed to be used for. No traffic awareness or very limited. 4 seconds at speed 35 mph -- 60 meters or 200 feet. And to be behind the steering wheel and to be engage in a serious conversation in the car is bad. I have more 300,000 miles behind me and two my daughters are adults now. So I am speaking of the first had experience. And I don't like drivers this one.

in regards of BLUE SUV -- the right lane has not been block by emergency vehicle and it approached intersection almost simultaneously with ambulance. By my judgement did not have enough time to stop.

> "I'm trying to find out what radar gun they're using in this video from Chicago. Would be pretty great to recreate this locally."

you could always use the vascar method: mark off a known distance on the road and use a stopwatch to time when a car crosses the beginning and end of that road segment. divide the distance by the time and voila! (or just pre-compute a lookup table to make that easier)

@pierce: Here's a happy interaction with a motorist that involves no swearing (yesterday morning). Even though the guy rolls 5 feet over the stop line at the intersection, and looks a little iffy as to whether or not he was actually going to proceed, I just wave & say "Thanks man" (driver side window was down). Maybe he took it a little easier on the next cyclist he had to pass heading down Butler St.

For anyone that owns a contour helmet cam, where did you buy your helmet mounts? The vented helmet mount runs $20, which seems exorbitant for a piece of plastic and a nylon strap. And it doesn't even get good reviews.

> I just wave & say "Thanks man"

i dont know why i feel the need to do this, but i will very often give a little wave and mouth 'thank you' when a driver follows the law and doesnt needlessly endanger my life.

Pierce, most people do idiotic things behind the wheel, some people are just idiots. I find it beneficial to see which vehicles may be driven by aggressive or dangerous people on the road. License plates and descriptions are also helpful, but video seems to make it stick better. I enjoy quizbot's videos. Some people need to be yelled at to get their attention.

I have to agree with Pierce. I don't really understand this need to so thoroughly document things that you don't like, it seems self-righteous to me.

@ben: it's not just things I don't like. These are obvious vehicle code infractions. There are lots of things I don't like that I'm not posting. If you don't like it, or can't wrap your head around why I may think there's a reason to highlight ignorant motorist behaviors, ignore the thread. Pretty simple.

How is it self-righteous? If one of these drivers pulls a hit and run a database like this could be very useful. Theres nothing anymore self-righteous about this than video taping any other sort of ass-hatery that occurs on a daily basis.

I don't even agree that they're "obvious."

In the last video you were swore at a guy for properly yielding at Friendship park, then yelled at a guy for being confused and trying to pass you when you were yielding and had the right of way, and here you're swearing at a guy for not yielding.

boostuv, self-righteous: "Piously sure of one's own righteousness" I'm not into labels, but I think we can agree Quizbot feels pretty strongly he did the right thing (or somebody else did wrong)

Rather than ignore things I don't like Quizbot, I'm interested in understanding. What is your reason for highlighting "ignorant" motorist behaviors?

I'm all for keeping track of aggressive drivers, but so far we seem to be accumulating drivers breaking minor offensives in unusual circumstances.

Stef, my memory isn't so good. Knowing that a red pickup might not yield, and a white SUV? may pass me when I'm yielding improperly isn't useful information in my daily commute.

Yelling at people may get their attention, but it doesn't effectively express what you're trying to communicate in my experience. As much as we don't understand why or what drivers yell at us when they pass us, they don't understand why or what we're yelling at them either.

"If one of these drivers pulls a hit and run a database like this could be very useful." This probably hits upon my greatest concern. To me, this all seems so reactionary. A driver does something we disagree with, we yell at them. A driver kills somebody, we look for video tapes.

I appreciate safe, cautious, and courteous drivers as much as anyone. That's what we all want right? How are these videos moving us towards that goal?

We already know drivers act in ways that lend themselves to getting in more accidents. Where do we go from there? How do we get people to drive with more caution and concern?

While I can see the cathartic value in crowding around and saying "This guy's an idiot, look!" I don't see how it is going to change anything or lead us towards what we really want

In the last video you were swore at a guy for properly yielding at Friendship park

i think i was on your side a bit here, but statements like this really undermine your credibility. now, of course, i'm going from memory, but what i recall is someone cutting quizbot off very closely in friendship park, and then pulling over because he wanted to have a discussion about it. i don't know about you, but i have found all enthusiastic comers to these sorts of conversations to be not only universally hostile, but also the sort of people for whom evangelism is a lost cause.

now, i might agree that posting these sorts of videos is self-righteous. i might also add that i don't think that's a bad thing, especially if you know you were right under the circumstances. but what do you accomplish by complaining about it, besides adding to the response count in a thread that you presumably don't think ought to be read by any and all comers to bike-pgh.org?

I just wave & say "Thanks man" Here's a happy interaction with a motorist that involves no swearing

@quizbot: More like this!

Every time I see a motorist wait for me to cross an intersection before they turn, I give a 'thank you' wave as I roll by. I'm glad to know that you, me, melange396, and others are doing what we can to improve motorist-cyclist relations.

To everyone else here, remember: all it takes is one asshole on a bike running a red light to make us all look like assholes in the eyes of motorists. So fucking stop it already.

"My name is Pierce and I'm here to pee in your Cheerios."

FWIW, I agree with Pierce.

Further, to boostuv's point about cataloguing ass-hattery (great term): if I spent my time recording ass-hattery, it would take ALL my time.

I think this is a valuable discussion.

I think it's ok to be a little self-righteous, especially in the wake of all the negative feedback to the 4 foot passing law. When you have people who believe that every cyclist breaks the law and that drivers apparently obey it down to the letter, it's sort of fun to point out just how bad people are at doing it.

Ignore the thread. You're not going to change quizbot's mind about posting videos.

Here’s my 2 cents. I like the fact that someone is posting these videos. Not only do they show some of the stupid stuff that goes on out there, but they are good in an educational way. We get to discuss what happened, what could have happened, and strategies to prevent bad outcomes. Don’t forget that there are a lot of people who read this board that may not post on a regular basis. Some of them may be new to riding in general, or new to riding in urban settings. I think by following this thread much insight can be gained on how to stay safe, especially if we guide the discussion toward what options were available to the cyclist/driver/pedestrian in the situation. BTW, I’ve even sent links to friends who don’t bike to show them some of what they’re missing. It may help them become better road users too.

+1 Marko82

A video can let you experience a difficult situation and maybe figure out a way to handle it better than the cyclist in the video. It's much easier to stay cool on Youtube than on the road.

But sure, posting video is mostly about catharsis and commiseration, same as griping to your friends about your co-workers. It's not going to improve your co-workers, but so what?

@Pierce: What's my reason for highlighting ignorant motorist behaviors? Good question. What's Stu's reason for pointing out "dangerous longitudinal drain grates"? Same answer: we're pointing out hazards to cyclists on their commute. The ones that I'm pointing out just happen to be random and non-stationary.

On swearing: in the ambulance video, my "WTF dude!" was just an immediate reaction of disbelief at what I was seeing. It wasn't intended to make it to the drivers ear. Besides that, being on the phone and apparantly unable to hear the f'n siren he wasn't going to hear me anyway.

I'm posting these for a few reasons: entertainment value, opportunity to create discussion, and again to point out hazards that cyclists may experience on the road.

The vids I post represent just the worst of what I see out there. In the last 6 months, with approximately 3600 mins of commute time, I've posted a total of 3 mins of footage. That is .08% of my commute. 99.92% of the time, conditions are reasonably tolerable. But, it's that sketchy .08% that concerns me, and probably concerns every other cyclist out there somewhere in the backs of their minds.

I swear at motorists.. Just not that loudly.

If only Don Parker, Dr. Varacallo and the two doctors last May had been wearing helmet cams...

Might not have changed events, but would certainly have taken some of the guesswork out of what happened afterward.

woah woah hey wow, can we go back to the video Nick put a link to of the guy and his 'drive and text game'? now THAT's scary.

i think the only time i say 'dude' is when im yelling at cars. never any other time, but consistently at cars. look out, dude. woah, bro.

This it? Apparently there was a gray lady that I completely missed.

i was right behind a car in my bus that turned in frount of 2 bikes last night at center and aiken around 815pm the had bright lights blinking and the the car just turned right in front of them i see all kinds of bad driving in east liberty all day long while im driving my bus i try to stay about 10 feet behind bikes hoping it gives them some protection from cars

i think the only time i say 'dude' is when im yelling at cars. never any other time, but consistently at cars. look out, dude. woah, bro.

haha this is great. i also have things i only call cars, and now i wonder about everyone else.

"whoa, guy."

i had a suitemate in college a good while ago who addressed his friends as "guy", then i had friends who used it to address people they didn't much care for ("listen, guy..."). this is the only way it stuck with me.

For bad drivers, I use the term "drunkard".

There may be times when it is not strictly true, but it is usually the appropriate term, anyhow.

I usually take Liberty home but tonight took Penn to grab a tag. Mistake. :07 - :12 avoiding some debris from recent hole patching. :13 you can hear a motor gunning. :16 - :17, a one foot pass by a gold suv with no distinguishable plate, cutting it uncomfortably close to both me and inbound traffic. :21 - :24 doesn't really look that great either. Oncoming inbound, outbound driver is giving me 4 feet, and there's someone pulling off the curb. I'm wondering what the experts think I should have been doing differently.

"I'm wondering what the experts think I should have been doing differently."

I would have cursed more profusely.

I did MF'er it somewhat under my breath. Was worried about what some would think of my cursing, and how it would play out on video. I should probably just keep my mouth shut & be more sensitive to the motorist's plight.

I imagine the driver in the opposing lane was more than willing to fill in for your lack of expletives.

As for what you could have done differently – you could have taken even more of the lane, but I think you were doing a pretty good job already, and I have a feeling the gold SUV would have passed you no matter what. That guy was a dick.

really tough situation. I probably would have taken liberty ave. but maybe your destination didn't allow for that.

If I had taken 5 more inches of the lane I would've at least been clipped by the rear view mirror. Usually do take Liberty, but altered the routine to grab a tag.

I should really just stay off the roads and ride on the sidewalk or on bike trails. I'm not registered or licensed to drive a bike, and I don't pay road tax. Where do I get the gall to think I have any sort of right or privilege to be on a road?

@ quizbot be more sensitive to the motorist's plight.

You mean, like, that he is st00pid?

He may or may not have been born stupId, but he's clearly stewpid now.

It appears he's committed to remaining stupit for the forseeable future.

It's good that he has a life plan, isn't it?

He missed totalling his pretty little semi-trailer today, but he's likely gonna wreck it to save .72 seconds sometime soon. Good for him! I hope there's a camera there for him when he does!

Short of exercising your American right to bear arms, I don't see a whole lot you could have done differently. Nothing about his driving that a hand grenade through the window couldn't fix.

I agree with the idea of sharing videos so we can learn what to do next time

Perhaps if we're in tight streets and a car is coming in the opposite lane, be especially protective of the lane. Don't give those behind any illusion of being able to squeeze through.

This page does a pretty good job of explaining the lane taking thing, for those that don't know why it's a safer thing to do:

http://cyclingsavvy.org/hows-my-driving/

That being said, I don't always take the whole lane myself. If it's a four lane road, I always almost definitely do. Two lane roads are a little more tricky though.

I'm trying to recall why I don't in two lane roads and I keep coming back to the idea that fairly often? when I do this, cars will change lanes into oncoming traffic with the oncoming traffic being significantly closer than I would prefer.

So I guess I end up trying to balance between my risk of being sideswiped with the risk of contributing to a head-on collision

For some reason, I also tend to just get a feel for drivers on certain days. Sometimes I feel like people are being more courteous and safe, and I'll take less of the lane, but other times I feel like drivers are driving faster and with less caution so I feel compelled to take more of the lane

So on an unrelated note... have you tried to submit any of these videos to the police? It seems like the mirror is less than 4' away from your head at 18 secs

So I guess I end up trying to balance between my risk of being sideswiped with the risk of contributing to a head-on collision

Never mind your risk, why would you feel even somewhat slightly concerned that you may have contributed to a head-on collision? Who is driving the cars?

If I had taken 5 more inches of the lane I would've at least been clipped by the rear view mirror.

Sure, assuming the driver didn't change his behavior in response. But if you'd taken more of the lane, most drivers would have gone farther into the oncoming lane to pass, or perhaps even waited to pass. Whether this one would have is anyone's guess.

Seems like lane position is a balancing act between being courteous by letting drivers pass easily, and protecting yourself by taking the lane. Courtesy is great except when you encounter a discourteous (to say the least) motorist like this one. It's kind of like the Prisoner's Dilemma problem.

3 seconds to assess whether or not this driver who was gunning it up the curve at the bottom of Penn behind you is going to change his behavior: go.

My observation: it's much easier to take the lane on the internet than it is to take it in real life.

I think this guy in the gold suv represents the x-factor in all of this: the one thing you simply cannot account for. I'm not sure there is anything quizbot (or any of us) might have done differently to alter that circumstance.

The x is going to act how it is going to act. The x is going to buzz the bicycle. The x is going to cut in front of the bicycle. The x is going to right-hook the bicycle. (Horribly, the x is also going to fiddle with their flip-flop, and the x is also going to purposely run a couple of doctors down.)

Unfortunately we have to accept that even if we do "all the right things" the x is still out there unaccounted for. There are no laws to fix x. There are no friendly waves or PSA's or educational programs to fix x. The other 99% (or whatever number you would like) of drivers are predictable, and are willing to give the four feet, be patient when we're taking the lane, etc. But the x is a goner. And we're stuck with him.

The one percenters...

I like the video at the bottom of the page that Pierce links to above. http://cyclingsavvy.org/hows-my-driving/

The video is on a four lane road and rather boring, but it shows a cyclist taking the full lane vs taking only the right third of the lane. There is a camera shooting behind the cyclist, and a camera inside an approaching car. This is a perspective that most of us don’t get to see. My biggest revelation comes toward the end of the video when it shows a bike using only a third of the lane. From inside the car, and from a distance, it looks like there is enough distance for the car to “share” the lane. It’s only as the car gets closer that it becomes obvious that they have to change lanes. So cars tend to change lanes at the last minute, and lane split a lot. But when you ride in the middle of the lane, cars know they have to change lanes much earlier, resulting in much less confusion and lane splitting by the cars. This is great to watch, and an aspect I really haven’t thought about.

"Some drivers cannot think ahead or imagine taking their foot off the gas"

I think that describes the gold SUV driver perfectly.

"Some drivers cannot think ahead or imagine taking their foot off the gas"

This winter an SUV buzzed me on a busy 4-lane (35-mph) road, and immediately right hooked me (tires squealing) turning down a side street. SUV then parked in front of the second house down this side street, which happened to be one street before my own.

I turned down the street and stopped next to this guy before he even turned his car off to see what the deal was. I was perfectly calm, and I think I started out saying "You passed me really close back there, it was very dangerous". Dude frantically locked his doors, and proceeded to have a conversation with me through his car window. He didn't speak English very well, but he got across that he didn't have any extra room to pass me, and if he moved over anymore, someone would have HIT HIM!!

I explained that next time he could have slowed down and waited half a second, and it wouldn't have been an issue. He thought for a second, and you could see kind of a light bulb go off, before he agreed that next time he would do that.

@ dwillen that is how it's done. When I have the opportunity to talk to drivers about dangerous driving I approach them just like that and I never have an altercation. I have never changed someones point of view by arguing, cursing or fighting with them. I want to change the way drivers treat us on the road and anger only makes it harder for the next cyclist bad drivers encounter. I feel the problem with most drivers (not all) is education. They don't know what the laws are for cyclist and often seem confused in sharing the road with us. I have stopped fighting and started educating.

@ quizbot I like your videos not for entertainment or even documenting license plates, but to learn what to do (or not to do) in certain situations. Seeing things from your camera I change my riding a little, take the lane more check cross streets even when I have the green etc.

I don't see this thread as entertainment or to make fun of anyone but to learn how to keep my cool when commuting.

Friday morning I was pulling out on to Spring Way after a truck passed and was almost hit by a pole sticking out of the truck bed by a few feet. Another cyclists saw that happen and approached the driver to tell him how dangerous it was. As far as I can tell the driver told him to get off the road.

I feel like I'm stirring the pot here, but if anyone has $145 to spare, today's deal from woot is an HD helment camera. It can hold up to 32 GB of crappy driving/annoyed cyclist footage if you have a microSD card of that size (sold separately, of course). It will shoot 1080p at 30 fps or 720p at 60 fps.

Not a PGH motorist, a Berkeley (California!) one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3LatOGCWVc

Scary, but it appears the riders are relatively unharmed, and the police are apparently tracking down the driver (according to the youtube). Note the traffic angel commenters lambasting them about stop signs.

Guess it pays off to film your rides. Though I imagine in PGH you'd just get a couple of stop sign tickets and a firm talking to.

What's a good option for a handlebar-mounted camera, rather than helmet-mounted? I think I'd prefer the former.

I like the Contour series of cameras. They look slightly less ridiculous, in that they're like what you'd expect a sport camera to be, rather than the digicam-in-a-plastic-box, e.g. the GoPro. There is a handlebar mount but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. The internal sound is pretty terrible but it's easily modded to add an external mic jack.

Mick, I have a coworker who explains Pittsburgh driving to all people new to our office like this:

"Just assume everyone is drunk. Most people are. More so on game days."

2 right hooks this morning. (you may want to turn down the sound if you're at work or otherwise sensitive to cursing)

1st: Negley headed towards Penn Ave. Driver looks right at me as he passes then hooks me. This one was easy to see coming, so I used my escape route and avoided getting hit. Ya, I reacted strongly because the motorist's actions were blatant. PA YHR-0499, white Ford box van.

2nd: Penn Ave approaching the 31st bridge. PA BA-64072, white ford Transport U van #124.

Could I have taken the lane a bit more? In both cases, probably. However, this is not an excuse for the drivers actions. The onus is on them to not interfere with me.

§ 3331. Required position and method of turning.

(e) Interference with pedalcycles.--No turn by a driver of a motor vehicle shall interfere with a pedalcycle proceeding straight while operating in accordance with Chapter 35 (relating to special vehicles and pedestrians).

In the first clip, was he gunning his engine or something that made you look over your shoulder, or do you do this at every intersection? I’m just asking because it allowed you to prepare for the eventual right-hook and take evasive action. I’m not sure you would have been able to had you not anticipated it.

I think I would call the phone number conveniently plastered on the back of the Transport-U van and complain about their driver breaking the law and risking an “accident”.

1st: I did hear his engine but in general I'm always looking over my shoulder on Negley.

+1 good habbit.

2nd: just got off the phone with a friendly dispatcher at Transport U who noted my complaint & the van #. Also provided me with a supervisor email address so I can pass along the video.

There's no reason not to take the full lane on that section of Negely. I linked previously to why it's a good idea.

If you don't want somebody to pass, why not make it harder and more obvious that they cannot easily do it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sideswipes are far more common than getting hit from directly behind.

What does the driver looking at you have to do with anything? It doesn't mean he recognizes that you don't want him to turn and pass in front of you.

Additionally, the law you cite is questionably relevant for the first and second video. Were you intending to turn in the first video? How much did the second driver interfere?

Also, you said it was hard for you to remain calm when people are trying to kill you. Do you think the first driver was trying to kill you?

The dude in the car probably has no idea why you're yelling at him. I know why you're yelling and I'm still wary of it. Imagine how driver feels. Imagine how the pedestrians feel around the area. So again I ask, what does yelling at people accomplish? Yes, it's cathartic. You can either educate or you can yell, but I think for the majority of the population, they're mutually exclusive activities.

I too had an unpleasant interaction with a motorist today. As I was cycling in my school's long driveway somebody yelled "something something CAR!" He was heading outbound. I signaled to turn, made a U-turned, waived to the driver behind me and caught up to the car at the stop light.

I said "Did you say something to me?" "Yes" "What did you say?" "I said get a car." "Why do you feel I should get a car?" "Because." "Because why?" "Just because." "I don't understand though. I really enjoy riding my bicycle." "Driving a car is better for you." I motioned to the car "You think driving a car" and then motioned to my finely chiseled body "Is better for you than riding a bicycle?" At this point the light turned green and the woman next to him told him to go. He also had two people in the back.

I was able to express my feelings without yelling, he was able to make a fool of himself. After the light turned green and he was on 885, he yelled again and honked his horn. I'm only hoping his passengers disapproved and with any luck I'll see him walking around campus sometime.

@Pierce: "What does the driver looking at you have to do with anything?"

It has everything to do with anything. We made eye contact. He was fully aware that I was there. He gave me a sneer, then right hooked me. I wish my cam had a polarized filter so you could see his face through the glare on the window. Maybe he didn't want to kill me, but he definitely didn't give a shit about doing some harm.

"Additionally, the law you cite is questionably relevant for the first and second video."

I can't tell if you're really being serious or not, so I'll just pass on that one.

"Imagine how driver feels. Imagine how the pedestrians feel around the area."

You care so much about how everyone else feels... why don't you care about how I feel? Do you also not care how my wife or kids would feel if I were taken out by someone throwing a right hook?

The suspense is killing me.

As far as the snear goes, I don't know. I attributed the right hook to a misjudgment of speed, ignorance or impatience.

I cannot accept that the majority of the population has an interest in harming one another or an apathy towards harming another, while at the same time I recognize that a very few do.

According to my wiki-ing the percentage of true psychopath's are one to two percent. (Which seems high?) I guess one or two cars acting callously towards us out of one hundred seems about right, but also, maybe high.

I care how you feel. I wish our commutes were stress free and not potentially life threatening. I often envision myself the subject of one of my institution's many bereavement emails (we have an ancient workforce) and worry about my lacking legacy of expedient password resets.

I want all of us to be able to live long productive lives and to be able to support our families and children without fear of how we commute around the city.

I was deeply moved by the show of emotion from Ruihui Lin's mom on the one year anniversary of her son's death. If the image and sound of her crying in front of the candlelit ghost bike could be implanted into motorists passing too close, I'd bet they give us more space.

Unfortunately however, we can't do that. I guess yelling can get across the message that "Hey, I don't like what you're doing!" but it fails to get across the heart of the message. "When you pass me without hardly any room, I'm concerned for my safety. I'm worried I could be hurt and killed and I won't be able to see my kids grow up or grow old with my wife. So would you please be willing to pass me with extra space in the future so I can have some peace of mind?" I think that statement is far more powerful than debating the 4 foot passing law or who is right and wrong.

I know you can't have that conversation with everybody, but if somebody pulls over or you get a chance to talk to somebody at a light, we can all bring out the humanity and vulnerability in ourselves for the purpose of advocating for more safe and cautious driving.

Well said. Where's the 'like' button?

>"So would you please be willing to pass me with extra space in the future so I can have some peace of mind?" I think that statement is far more powerful

indeed it is. but how often do we even get a chance to attempt a calm discourse? when i encounter dickish behavior, they almost always speed off and yelling would be the only opportunity i have to communicate. if you do get to catch up to them and their window is down, people sometimes act insulted or at least get defensive when you point out their wrongdoings/shortcomings/flaws so its hard to get them to even hear the message. then theres the way the car and the monotony of automotive traffic insulates and abstracts their thinking so that they may not understand the gravity of the message or take heed of its ramifications. the yelling of profanity in public like that and the shame that results may be the only way to reach the flagrant offenders... well, profanity or tickets from police.

> the percentage of true psychopath's are one to two percent. (Which seems high?)

im going to try to count the number of cars i see on my commute (which is relatively short and on relatively less busy roads during times when relatively fewer people are commuting), but id guess that quizbot easily sees 200 on his (5ish mile?) trip down penn ave. that would mean there should be about 3 psychopaths that he comes near every day, but how often do they make the highlight reel? id expect more incidents to occur to us all; maybe its fear of retribution or simply indifference that tips the scales in our favor and prevents them from doing truly nasty things.

what i would REALLY like to know is how frequently quizbot says "dont turn in front of me you asshole!" and they DONT actually cut him off

+1 for what Pierce said about finding the humanity.

Really, really well said.

And +1 also for quizbot.

While the driver is most likely not a sociopath I have no problem believing that he knew exactly what he was doing. This is how aggressive drivers act. Quizbot being there couldn't have been a surprise unless the driver wasn't paying attention. It's a text book right hook as far as I am concerned.

what i would REALLY like to know is how frequently quizbot says "dont turn in front of me you asshole!" and they DONT actually cut him off

Think of it like his horn.

Well said Pierce.

I really wish your thinking was spot on, but what about the a-holes who yell at me while going in the opposite direction? I’m on the other side of the road & can’t possibly be delaying or imposing on them in any way, yet you get the ‘faggot’, ‘get on the sidewalk’, etc. shit yelled at you. I think that one or two percent may be low when you plop the person down behind a steering wheel. And for the record, my reactions are closer to quizbot’s, but I’m trying…

Only the really special individuals receive special choices of words from me, particularly when their actions are with blatant disregard for the safety of others around them. It just so happens that those sorts of interactions are the things that end up being posted here, but they're in no way indicative of my general strategy when it comes to handling motorists.

2 weeks or so ago, I was in the bus / bike lane on Liberty outbound approaching the Bloomfield bridge when a lady who was backed up in the center lane tried to make a jump into the bike lane... I just gave a loud and sharp "HEY!" to get her attention, which worked probably because her windows were down and she was actually able to hear me.

Usually, that's all my horn blasts. HEY!!!

Maybe I need to get one of these.

Well, that horn sure makes me rethink the idea of adding a car horn to my bike.

/me searches ebay for train horns and scuba tanks

If you had an air horn powered by a propane tank, with a properly placed grill igniter, that could be kind of a special "drivers ed" device.

edmonds, I keep picturing one of those bicycles with the bins on front and the colorful umbrella that sells hotdogs and icecream and cotton candy by the beach. I know that's not what you mean, but it's more delicious. OOO you could put a blender on the back and sell smoothies too.

that would be so awesome. wow. tangent. sorry.

Here we go again. Maroon Ford Taurus, Tennessee plate D35-07Y drives out of alley directly into my path. Coral & Amelia. Friendly motorist sees it happen, intervenes on my behalf. Jagoff motorist tells me I should've stopped at a non-existent stop sign, then threatens to get out of his car.

Props for expressing your concern and focusing on that even after the threat of violence

id like to buy the guy in the kia a pedal pale ale. its a plus every time you have a motorist stand up for a biker put at risk.

mr smiley face is probably a cyclist as well as a cager and thus biased but still...

best video yet

ugh, wish I had a camera this evening. buzzed three times going to and from brillobox on penn. twice when I was taking the lane, and I'm pretty sure the first guy brushed my knuckle hairs (albatross bars) I couldn't believe we didn't make contact.

Well-played, quizbot.

Interestingly, I've had "that guy" pull "that move" while driving as well.

Glad also to see the guy in the Kia speak up.

@quizbot - great response at the end "all I want is for you to try to be more careful." I feel like that pretty much sums it up. (I also liked the "that's not cool!").

Separately, though, I'm interested in the way that video distorts (or fails to adequately convey) incidents like this. Just watching it on the computer it doesn't really look like a dangerous situation; it just looks like a driver being kind of jerk and pulling out in front of you, causing you to have to slow down a little. I take it from your reaction, and that of the nice driver, that this is not what actually happened, and that you had to brake dramatically to avoid a collision. Maybe it's the wide angle of the lens, but that urgency really doesn't come across in the video.

Most helmet cams have a pretty wide angle lens, which could almost use a "objects in video are closer than they appear" disclaimer.

I've tried shooting MTB video with a 170º field of view. To keep the rider in front of me in big enough in the frame I had to ride uncomfortably close to his wheel.

Quick video to show how the distance of objects is distorted by the lens (125º field of view). I got out a tape measure & show what 20 in, 3 ft, 4 ft, and 5 ft look like as measured from handlebar end to car body from the side, and what 5 ft and 8 ft look like seeing an oncoming vehicle. Front view measured from bike front wheel to bumper.

Why didn't you measure the distance from you to the fully grown man on the bike?

lol

if anyone cares, woot.com is selling the Swann Frestyle 1080p camera (helment or hangledab mountable) for $140. The deal will probably be gone in the next hour.

Already too late. Sold out. Just tried.

Woot.com was selling the same camera a few weeks, so perhaps it'll be back again. (I got one last time, though I'm not sure mine came with a hangledab mounting option. Works fine on my helmet though.)

@Steven, Every good bike cam should have a hangledab mounting option.

omg why did you send me to BSNY, I was about to get some work done.

for those who aren't familiar, normally woot has a deal a day, but right now they are in "woot-off" mode, which normally lasts for two or three days and consists of deals where they put something up until they run out or sell a certain allotted number, and then it switches to a new item. sometimes things sell out in an hour, sometimes in a minute. sometimes they only sell one of an item. in reality, though, they usually have more of them somewhere when they "sell out," and a lot of times during woot-offs something will re-appear, so that camera or a similar one could come back in the next couple of days. (if you want to keep close tabs on what they're selling during a woot-off to see if another one shows up, you can even leave a tracker website like mywoot.net open in a tab while you're doing other things.)

Quizbot, you might be rubbing off on me

I gave some guy the finger today for passing me closer and faster than I'd like in a construction zone where I was purposefully taking the lane

First time I've done it in a while. Luckily I don't think he noticed.

But then the day before I also cursed when some lady decided to do a three-point-turn on Boundary St around that area with the school entrance

/sigh Maybe it is the heat

Maybe something along these lines?

The Swann camera is back as today's Woot.

A guy I work with showed me this lens that attached to an iPhone (at this website: http://www.kogeto.com/say-hello-to-dot)

It makes 360 degree video. So if you made video while riding, and a crash or near-miss happened, you could pan from the forward view, to the side view to the rear-view - you could see the car coming, or whatever. All the videos of crashes we've seen are frustrating in that we only see the forward view, then the blur, then the camera tumbling, etc.

I think there are smaple videos - including one taken while riding a segway that demonstrates the applicability to recording on a bike.

@ALMKLM: thats pretty awesome. unfortunately, their high-quality setup called lucy is big, heavy, and expensive... and it still doesnt seem to capture license plates well. hopefully the technology will improve quickly and we can all wear beanies on helmets to capture the idiocy on the streets.

Well, this isn't video but since I had to stop and walk my bike thanks to these douchebags, a still frame has the same effect. In the 60 seconds I was there I saw 3 other cyclists who had to do the same.

I think the only gap big enough to get through was between the white car and the SUV beside it, although I was tempted to try a "go/no-go" test with my pedals just to make sure I didn't accuse anyone unjustly.

^Did a girl on a black hybrid bike ride/walk by shaking her head as you were taking that photo, by any chance? I certainly saw someone taking a photo of this nonsense and immediately wondered if it would end up here, haha

Yeah - was that you? I muttered something like "that's a lovely parking job"...

Yup. I wasn't 100% sure what you said, so I think my response was just awkward laughter, but I knew what you meant anyway, haha. It was indeed a really lovely parking job. I kinda wish I had left notes to compliment the drivers of those cars on just how lovely it was.

I carry a pen and paper in by rack bag for writing notes and license plate numbers. Left a note last week on a car parked blocking a curb cut near frick park.

I used the pedal test on a car that was routinely blocking the stairs to sassafras from 29th last year. The car failed the test twice, but it's owner stopped blocking the stairs.

lulz, pedal test! i get so anal retentive about tiny chips on my own bike frame, id have to be pretty pissed to administer the exam to another person.

I kinda wish I had left notes to compliment the drivers of those cars on just how lovely it was.

When I leave notes about parking I usually put something at the end about how "good parking is KEY to being a good neighbor" with a little drawing of a key next to it.

I would definitely leave a note like that before actually performing a pedal test.

Once people understand that it's part of being a good neighbor, they generally get their act together.

"Won't you be my neighbor?"

Was the bus driver being a dick in this situation? Inbound between 40th and 39th on Liberty this morning. I'm in the bike lane, bus passes me, only to stop to pick up passengers 5 seconds later. My feeling is that he should have waited those 5 seconds and let me clear. He made the situation a bit uncomfortable for me and boarding passengers. Anyway, I was nice about it all & didn't fling verbal or actual poo at anyone.

^Still trying to decide how I feel about that. I don't think it's blatant dickishness. It's sort of an awkward/tricky situation; I don't know if bus drivers are prepared for it or if they necessarily understand the situation it puts you in. But if I were queen of bus drivers, they would do what you are suggesting.

On a separate note, today's sequel to salty's Reizenstein Park photo above:



This time I left a note. (A gentle, friendly one. It even had a smileyface!)

@quizbot, when you were staring the driver down, did they look back at you at all?

Bus driver knew what was up. He was probably behind schedule.

pearmask - yeah, i have some photos like that too i don't think they deserve the courtesy of a blurred plate though. At least they're not *on* the trail.

FWIW, I had a "conversation" with someone who was doing that on a regular basis last year. It wasn't exactly a pleasant experience (for either of us, I'm sure) but the guy doesn't park there anymore.

That's dickishness for sure. He hadn't even fully passed you. I would send a link to the video to Port Authority.

@Quizbot

I had the same thing happen to me on Negley today right before Friendship heading towards center

I kind of gave him a WTF? wave as I passed him. The optimist in me says maybe he didn't realize how fast I was going or how soon he'd have to stop?

quizbot - i'd vote for "dumbass" more than "dick", and i agree it was dumb of him to do that... at least he didn't throw in a little hook.

Yeah, they weren't on the trail, and they weren't actually threatening my physical well-being (parked, empty cars are the best kind). And I was feeling nice. I think I got all the anger out of my system for a while with the guy on Forbes the other day.

I do have a small amount of patience for people who have Car Brain who maybe just don't realize that a path like that could be a way for people to get somewhere. Since it's not really marked or anything, I could see how people could think of it like just a sidewalk-y thing to walk through the park. (Not that blocking pedestrian access is awesome either, since that reflects a failure to think about wheelchairs, etc., but that's another story.) This time I decided to give this person the benefit of the doubt.

Now, if I see the same van parked there again, I might take a different approach...

@salty: I was definitely anticipating a hook into the lane. At least he didn't cut into it.

@melange396: ya, he was looking at me directly while closing the door.

It's possible the bus driver didn't see the folks waiting to board at the time he decided to pass you (or long enough in advance for him to figure out that slowing down would have worked out better).

I think the correct behavior for a bus, in general, is to merge into the rightmost lane, even if it's a bike lane, when picking up passengers. That keeps his passengers safe from traffic in the bike lane. But that creates its own problems.

@steven good point on the possibly not seeing the people waiting.

I’m not sure about the bus. I can definitely see where it would have been way better for him to slow down thus avoiding the awkwardness of the situation. But he didn’t really do anything illegal either. +1 for not losing your cool and letting the peds cut in front of you to board the bus. I’m really not sure what my reaction would have been – although I’ve had a short fuse for a few weeks. Maybe I need some cookies from the Forbes Ave. thread.

@Steven: If merging into a bike lane is OK for a bus, then it is for a car too. I don't see any special exemptions for transit vehicles in § 3331. Required position and method of turning.

(e) Interference with pedalcycles.--No turn by a driver of a motor vehicle shall interfere with a pedalcycle proceeding straight while operating in accordance with Chapter 35 (relating to special vehicles and pedestrians).

Edit: bike lane or not, grey area for "merging" vs. "turning".

It's also somewhat questionable whether or not he gave me 4 feet when overtaking me. I was on the outside of the bike lane (avoiding the door zone) when he passed... if we broke out a tape measure, I'm sure it's more like 2.5 ft.

@steven, @dmtroyer: three [seemingly unaffiliated] people waiting at a stop in the morning makes me think its a common place for boarding. unless the bus driver was a total n00b, he should have anticipated that.

on the other hand, if he had slowed down a bit sooner, the people waiting might have been in the bike lane anyway... and quizbot could have been in an uncomfortable situation regardless

I don't think 3331 would apply since there's no turning involved. The law doesn't seem to consider merging as a type of turning, even though a driver does it by turning the wheel.

But that's an interesting point. What does the law say about buses and bike lanes?

Not much. 3309 says lanes may be limited to specific uses. I didn't see anything that would permit a bus to override that. So maybe they're not allowed into bike lanes after all.

But I'm not sure that's better. The law says no vehicle may pass a streetcar that's discharging passengers into your traffic lane (3315b). We've got a similar situation now with bike lanes and buses, but there's no similar law I can find that tells cyclists not to pass a bus that may be discharging passengers right into the bike lane.

@melange396: Maybe the driver could have anticipated there would be passengers, but it's hard to predict. Even on busy routes, sometimes there's another bus a minute ahead that picked them all up.

Other cities have buses and bike lanes. Do they handle it any better?

@quizbot: You may want to file a complaint with PAT for the 4-foot rule violation, at least. I'd say the video clearly shows the driver breaking it.

I've had several buses pass me on Fifth ave in Oakland then immediately merge INTO me to pick up passengers. Usually I'm moving with the speed of traffic on Fifth, taking the lane, so they have to change lanes & accelerate to pass me then choose to cut me off. I really don't understand why they're in such a hurry to drive around in circles. At least they don't intentionally run as many red lights as they used to.

@quizbot - i'd lean away from "dickish." It looks like he was caught a bit between a sh*t and a fart. At least he didn't "right hook" into the lane to cut you off entirely.

@almklm: caught a bit between a sh*t and a fart

Dude sharted!

Sent a complaint to PAT about the less than 4 ft pass & asked for an update on how they're going to handle it.

salty: At least they're not *on* the trail



This person's note contained ZERO smileyfaces

Some of the new bike lanes have dashed spots where bus stops are. Not sure who initiated that particular design, but seems to imply buses can pull into that space.

pearmask, I like how they pulled over to the side just a little bit. For some reason they understand that parking in the grass is a bad idea, but not parking on a sidewalk in a park.

they've got a TRAILBLAZER though, I guess it was born to do that!

Leaving about 15" of asphalt between fender and grass is an invitation for pedal tests. Or at least handprints.

Passive-aggressive approach: duct-taping a pillow to the the vehicle with a note saying "I just wanted to make sure your car didn't get scratched, since you parked so close to the trail entrance.."

Yeah, this was just begging for a pedal test, but there was some kind of sportsball game happening on that field, and I wasn't 100% confident that I could perform the test anonymously... but man, would it have been satisfying with the huge scratchy metal BMX pedals on my bike.

I'll stick to passive aggression for now. Now I'm trying to think of something as hilarious as the pillow that would be easier to carry around, lolz

@pearmask: cheapie pair of reading glasses from the drug store?

"Here, these glasses might help you see where you're parking."

I'm so sick of the psycho drivers in town I think I am going to carry a window breaker with me from now on when I ride in town so that if some jackass throws another beer bottle at me or an egg, or tries to run me off the road they can deal with a shattered window on their vehicle.

Probably the most off road driving that suv will ever see.

I don't know if shattering a window is the answer.. Scratches and feces aren't really going to cost a lot of money to deal with.

Destruction of property is probably not the best way to get one's point across in general. Poo, scratches, or otherwise. I mean, it is a bit juvenile, really. I obviously get pissed off too, but taking out my frustration on an inanimate object isn't going to make me feel any better about things.

Before messing with someone's car, think about the next 100 cyclists they're going to encounter on the road and not just oneself. If they figure out that some dick on a bike fucked up their car, they'll probably have a chip on their shoulder towards all of us. That's not what any of us want or need.

Yelling at jagoffs directly isn't much better for PR but at least there is some sort of immediate direct interaction involved. Unlike finding a handful of dog shit under one's car door handle after being parked in a bike lane all day... the one with the handful of shit may not correlate why they are holding it with anything other than that they are having a bad day. That's better than them figuring out why and proceeding with a chip on their shoulder, I suppose.

(for the record, i do support the use of photos/notes/pillows/etc. to express frustration with and/or gently mock people who park in dumb places, but i do not actually condone the use of poop, BMX pedals, or window breaking thingies)

Was there a chance that a disabled adult or child was attending the sportsgame? If so, that might be the only forgivable reason I could see for actually parking on the path.

Maybe you could carry one of those markers that are meant to write messages on cars (e.g. "Graduated", "Just Married", "Bar Mitzvah-ed", "Passed the Jedi Trials", and so forth), but you could use it to write "I park like a wanker" (so they think you're foreign) or "Driver of this vehicle has the herp" or some other non-sequitur.

Doubtful, and even if so there are other people in wheelchairs, etc. that need to get through there too. Pitt has a mobility research lab in Bakery Sq. so it's more than just a theoretical concern.

Dog poop on the door handle is a good idea. You can also use it to write "nice park job" on the window to avoid confusion.

From Pedal PGH today on Churchview Ave in Carrick around noon. This asshole rode on my step son's wheel for over a minute solidly blasting his horn. Not a few beeps, fucking LAYING ON IT SOLID. I thought the cam was on but it wasn't so only caught the tail end of it. There was more. In the vid he says "I'm blowin' the horn cause I don't want anybody to get hurt". WTF. If he doesn't want anybody to get hurt, why doesn't he wait to pass safely in accordance with chapter 33 section 3303 of the PA vehicle code? Instead, harass a rider like that trying to force him off the road? I give my kid credit for not being intimidated, and the car behind for stopping to ask if we were ok. They knew it wasn't right. Credit to me too for telling the guy to get the fuck out of there rather than telling him to get the fuck out of the car.

Ran into a cop at the end of Glenwood Bridge after dropping down Glass Run Rd. He advises me to call Zone 5 from home. After we get home, Zone 5 advises me to call Zone 3. Zone 3 advises me to call 911. I call 911. They come take a report. I show them the vid. If anything comes out of it at all it would be a summary harassment offense, but I'm not holding my breath. Anyway, fuck PA plate DXT-7013 guy.

The dick:

PA Plate DXT-7013:

@Quizbot, Churchview becomes Brentwood Boro at Sankey street, then becomes Baldwin at Willett Street. Your video is in Baldwin. You may want to make a report to Baldwin police since I have had positive experiences with their patrolmen in the past. Their station is a half mile out on Chuchview past where you turned onto Glass Run.

Sorry your son had to deal with such an asshole driver.

Jesus. What a prick. I wonder if he felt bad after he realized he acting like that towards a teenager. Not as if there was anywhere for you to even go.

Thanks Marko. This was between Andrade St and Mellott Rd / Glass Run, 3000 block of Churchview. Is that Baldwin?

Yes, I believe that is Baldwin. Most of the traffic on this street is local, esp on a Sunday, so it's most likely an area resident only a few blocks from home. So maybe the police may have already "met" this gentleman before. I hope you get good results.

Maybe I should let it slide. The driver was probably just trying to get his box of Dunkin Donuts back home while they were still fresh.

Donut connection donuts. I was glad to be riding with marko through sections in that area. I would not have taken the lane. Probably would have gotten buzzed. I hope your son swore at that asshole, too.

I think what he meant by "I'm just trying to let him know I'm here" was that he couldn't understand, if the cyclist knew he was there, why he didn't get off the road, out of his lane, and let him pass the way he believes a cyclist obviously should. Clearly, since the cyclist was still in his lane, the cyclist must be oblivious.

I would likely drop it as well, but I don't think that's the best idea. The guy clearly needs to be told by someone he either respects or fears that his behavior was not appropriate and it would be in his own best interest to modify it (and his expectations). Maybe a positive chat with police can fill that gap.

The question is whether it's psychologically of enough benefit to your family personally to try and induce that constructive chat with the third party (which is why I'd drop it, I've found I don't have the stomach to live in it long enough to report it once it's over).

If this, and cyclist ire due to poor cyclist law adherence, are the worst things to come of PedalPgh, what a remarkably wonderful day.

I had one driver honk at me and others to let me know they were behind me. Short beep-beep as we're coming down the hill. Worked fine. Really no need for laying on the horn. He probably came up with something half-assed as he noticed your helmet cam.

Is anyone on the case of trying to figure out what the guys t-shirt says? It seems to defy the t-shirt prime directive of a simple easily identifiable message.

Also I probably would have mentioned to the guy that 1985 called and wants it's shorts back.

1985 called? And you didn't warn them about Challenger's O-ring problem?

Lol

/sigh/ To again be the lone vocal dissenter, although I know others are lurking...

"I hope your son swore at that asshole, too."

Really Stef? Is that what you hope for the next generation?

When confronted with behavior he doesn't like, you hope he responds with hard-to-understand profanity? Because clearly, we have so many great examples of what kind of response using profanity with strangers results in.

Does anybody else think it's problematic how enraged Quizbot becomes by somebody blowing their horn? Now granted, this pisses me off too, but Quizbot seems to become about five levels higher pissed off.

Now I figure some people are going to be like "he's defending his kid!" but the horn doesn't present any danger to the kid.

Now I'll give credit to both Quizbot and the car guy. Even after Quizbot's yelling, car guy was willing to talk to him. And then to Quizbot's credit, once he calmed a little and realized the guy was open to talking to him, he did try and get some clarity about why he was laying on the horn.

Quizbot, if I could take a guess, I'm going to say that blowing the horn pisses you off because it's loud and obnoxious and you're wanting some consideration and equality for bikes being on the road. If you ask yourself "why is this pissing me off so much" when you start to feel yourself getting pissed off, you might be better able to communicate that when you start talking to somebody.

All you told the guy was that he doesn't know the rules of the road. Now if you were referring to horn use, yeah I guess, but I think you're more annoyed by it because of the reasons above, not because it is a rule.

===

For whatever it's worth, this isn't "armchair" cycle-caming? I practice this stuff in real life. Examples:

Chislett St, guy honks at me, I kind of look back and wave my "what do you want" hand (or not, don't remember) and kind of assert myself in the lane a little better. He may have honked at me again before passing me around the intersection of Vetter, which has more space

Because Chislett has a stop sign every two blocks, I pretty much keep up with him and eventually he pulls over to the pizza place.

I cycle up and say "Hey sir, I was wondering if I could talk to you for a moment." He says yeah and I say "Well, I was wondering why you honked at me back there?" He said something along the lines of me being in the middle of the road. Then I explained "Well, I kind of stay away from the cars on the side because if somebody opens their car door I can run into it and I'm also concerned with running over somebody if they step out in front of a car." "But do you really need to be in the middle of the road?" *He was walking into the pizza place as this convo took place* "Well, I've literally run over an old guy before so..." By that point he was in the store. I got an impression of him partially still be annoyed with me, but also a little bit of "okay man." So hopefully next time he sees a cyclist, maybe he'll remember why we're near the middle of the road. I also may have said something like "I don't want to get in your way or slow you down, while at the same time..."

Another time on Jancey some lady was honking at me, around 8am or something because kids were at a bus stop the next street up. I stopped my bike (and this time I was pretty much yelling or had a very raised voice) and said "Where do you want me to go?! If I ride along the cars I'm either going to get hit by a car door or run over a kid!" I may have said more, but that was the gist of it. I kind of stood there for a moment, I think I was at or close to a intersection, and then kept going.

I got a sense the parents and kids up the street were on my side.

The lady turned at the intersection

=====================

In both cases, I tried to explain to people what I was doing. I can understand from their perspective, if they don't know what we're doing, why they're annoyed. Now granted, that isn't to say whenever I don't understand what somebody is doing I blow on my horn, but I can understand their frustration. For example, when somebody is blowing on their horn and I don't understand why, I get pretty frustrated too.

Pierce, i see your point, but the video was prefaced with the explanation that it was the tail end of an extended incident - what we didn't see included tailgaiting and continued leaning on the horn. i wasn't there, just paraphrasing what was described.

the horn doesn't present a danger to his child, but someone wielding several tonnes of steel, apparently angrily, in close proximity, is a clear danger. Most of the "and then they ran me off the road" stories I've heard have started with "this aggressive driver was behind me, honking incessantly and tailgaiting..."

i can't blame him for reacting as though he were in the middle of a "and then my son got run off the road" story. Luckily, it ended differently instead.

> the horn doesn't present any danger to the kid.

imminent danger? perhaps not, but regardless of intention, laying on the horn is very intimidating and easily considered threatening, especially to a person on a bike on a busy street in the rain during a sanctioned event. it could be even moreso to a younger and less experienced person. quizbot was waaaaaaaaay in the right w.r.t. his reaction, and i hope he reports this assclown so that the cops pay a visit and the driver feels intimidated himself.

you might say that intimidation begets intimidation or that ive got bloodlust, but im really just hoping the jagoff learns some respect for others and the rules of the road.

I think you are wrong on this one Pierce. The driver was clearly being a bully - I would be pissed if I was in a car and this happened.

@ejwme

My point is independent of what the guy did to a certain extent. The video shows the guy several cars lengths behind, which is what my comments are based on. I'll have to take Quizbot for his word on what happened before, but I've disagreed with his assessments several times based on the same videos.

@melange396

"and the driver feels intimidated himself" Really? Again, yeah, violence begets violence. Respect isn't "learned" by some cop knocking on your door. What's needed is empathy, understanding, and consideration. Ask the minority populations of the city how the cops are doing with that so far.

@marko

I agree with being pissed off. I don't agree with pretty much anything else. Is the stereotype of bullies having bully parents true?

Because seriously, the continued macho man versus macho man displays here aren't going to do shit except contribute to further resentment on both sides. Except I think I think the videos here, if memory serves me right are, macho man versus old man and macho man versus seemingly calm (albeit honking) guy in car

I'd also like to point out Quizbot, if you ever do get into an altercation, which seems highly likely if you run into somebody just a little more on edge than yourself, you're building up quite the body of evidence with how you interact with motorists.

@Pierce - the guy was laying on the horn SOLIDLY for over a minute, riding at points 10 feet or so off my kid's wheel. Downhill in a heavy rain. We were going 20 mph or so. Taking a situation that was already something to be treated cautiously and making it magnitudes more tense. Not a couple of friendly dimwitted beep-beeps. Once he laid on the horn he didn't stop until I stopped in the middle of the lane in front of his car. Even then it kept going. It was pure and simple reckless intimidation and harassment.

"he's defending his kid!" That's correct. I am assuming you don't have any, since you don't seem to be very understanding of how someone threatening one's child might take things up a few notches. Instead, you unctuously invoke it as some sort of defense of your argument. Totally lame.

"the horn doesn't present any danger to the kid". Of course not. The horn is just a silent inanimate object in its normal state. The sub-human piece of shit blasting it is another matter entirely.

You actually bought the driver's line that "I'm blowin' the horn cause I don't want anybody to get hurt"? Can you not recognize bullshit when you see it? Are you really that naive?

In this situation, I didn't need to ask "why is this pissing me off so much". I knew exactly why. The guy was being a reckless asshole & threatening my kid. I didn't then, and I still don't now give a shit about meditating on his fucking feelings or perspective, or communicating anything to him with clarity other than the fact that I wanted to rip his fucking head off and the best thing that could happen was for him to just leave.

If things really weren't so bad, why did the strangers in the car behind stop to ask if we were ok? That's not enough to give you a clue about the situation Pierce?

He should've slowed down, patiently waited for a few seconds until it was safe to pass, crossed the double yellow, and given my kid 4 feet in passing. During the time he was on the horn, he had ample opportunity to do so. He chose not to and instead decided to fuck with the rider. Hundreds of other drivers that day were able to pass us safely without any incident, almost all giving 4 feet or more, no fucking horns... what the fuck was up with that guy?

About the macho man thing - you have some serious nerve passive-aggressively calling me names and judging me when you have no idea who I am in real life. You are totally out of line. I'm not some macho asshole who goes around and fucks with people. I'm pretty cautious and cerebral, but will defend my space if I need to. Do I react to threatening drivers with some spirit? Yes. Am I going to let you goad me into tearing you a new one? No. It would never work anyway, because you'd be able to empathize and understand my perspective without feeling any anger yourself. I'm already feeling a bit ego deflated and more calm just by imagining it.

As for the body of evidence with how I interact with motorists goes, I have dozens of hours of boring footage backed up & can easily prove that a few minutes posted here and there publicly are in no way typical of how I interact with drivers and behave on the road. Thanks for pointing it out though.

I didn't realize this was also happening going downhill. I can see how that can also add to an already frustrating situation. I also am not trying to convey a sense that your frustration and anger and yelling are not justified. They are.

"and the best thing that could happen was for him to just leave." I'm sorry that's the best thing you think can happen. I talked with others in this conversation in person and they were of a similar opinion. (John, Marcel, Sarah) My experience based on similar initial interactions by motorists leads me to believe otherwise.

"If things really weren't so bad, why did the strangers in the car behind stop to ask if we were ok?" I'm not saying things weren't bad. If I heard a long car horn for unknown reasons and then a guy yelling at the top of his lungs, I would investigate also.

"You actually bought the driver's line that" Eh, not exactly. I would have tried to investigate further.

I'm in agreement with what he should have done in regards to safely passing you.

I apologize for the macho man comment. I allowed myself to fall into some kind of confirmation bias, which is that most of what I see you do is yelling and swearing at motorists. I recognize now that you point it out, isn't how you interact with the majority of motorists. Even then, as you point out, it isn't like you're going out of your way to pick fights with people. You're being trigged by people driving without as much care as you'd like. (Varying levels of disregard depending on the situation)

To be more direct in regards to that macho man comment, now that I think about it, was more in response to the group rather than you specifically, except you're the one posting the videos, but I'm sure others interact the same way,

And my frustration with the group is that, is this the best we can do? When confronted with conflict, is the best we can do yell at people, give them the finger, get into debates about the law, etc, etc, etc. It seems like a lot of people are content with that. (And Quizbot, this is directed at the bicycle community as a whole, again, I recognize this isn't how you personally always act)

I don't see how conflicts can be resolved this way. How does that process work? If yelling at him is right, is trying to engage him in a dialogue any less right?

It seems like you want to have a conversation with these people, but when you start off by yelling at them, the dynamics change and they're less willing to be open and honest with you and probably less willing to hear where you're coming from.

If you're not willing to hear what their perspectives and feelings are, then do you expect them to be willing to hear yours? And if neither side is willing to hear one another, then what is the point of communicating at all?

[Update] I just recalled a time when I responded to a honk and "get off the road" with yelling and swearing. (two or three years ago) I think I responded something like "I have every fucking right to be on the mother fucking road!" Might have had more profanity, maybe called the guy an asshole. The guy's response was to ram me twice with his SUV. (We were stopped behind an tractor trailer)

I think it could have gone differently if I had tried another approach. After that he somehow got alongside me and said something like "Do you want me to get out of the car and punch you in the face?" and I said something like "No, I don't" somehow more calmly and then he drove off.

I think I could have had a more meaningful exchange. And that's what I'm asking this community to do. I'm asking for us to strive for more meaningful exchanges with the drivers that stimulate the greatest amount of anger, fury, and rage within us.

Everything changes when you're with a loved one.

Pierce, I personally have a very difficult time reasoning with an unreasonable person immediately after they have threatened my or another human's life. Give me five minutes and it is much easier, but in the moment I find it nearly impossible. Any tips?

@ Pierce and Quizbot: you are each consistently thoughtful and fascinating posters to this board. I am offering both as public service and out of personal curiosity to host beers on me at the bar of your choosing. My gut tells me the conversation will be illuminating.

Seriously.

damn! i wish i was more consistently thoughtful and fascinating.

edit: (i <3 beer)

for what its worth, i thought quizbot showed considerable restraint. i would have had a hard time not yanking this dickhead out of his car if he threatened one of my loved ones in such a manner.

quizbot wrote:Heyyyyy!!!! No vids for 8 months! Here’s a new one! YAY! It shows 5 jagoffs in the bike lane on Liberty in the space of one minute this morning getting their mirrors slapped.

WarpedMedia wrote:Your post and your actions are the exact embodiment of the negative drivers you are seeking to persecute. You are going out of your way to be mad about absolutely nothing aside from being slightly impeded, and then lash out on that anger at people who have barely done anything wrong.

edmonds59 wrote:Wow, dropping all that then running away like a coward to prevent any possibility of a dialog. F*cking weasel.

edmonds59 wrote:Cyclists should avoid doing anything that could potentially piss off a driver? Are you effing serious? So we are now at the point where cyclists have to behave impeccably, above and beyond what is normal for drivers, just to be considered acceptable? No.

Benzo wrote:Liberty Ave with this bike lane, despite it’s flaws is WAY better than liberty ave without it.

rsprake wrote:

Benzo wrote:Liberty Ave with this bike lane, despite it’s flaws is WAY better than liberty ave without it.

+1

byogman wrote:but realistically it does mean your opinion is uninformed.

Mikhail wrote:

byogman wrote:but realistically it does mean your opinion is uninformed.

M-m-m, this is a little bit jump to conclusion.

byogman wrote:Someone who does no riding just to get somewhere is going to primarily use parks, trails, and such and is highly unlikely to be well informed about the situation on the roads.

Marko82 wrote:+1 for all their help.

Mikhail wrote: This is not true. Lot of people who rides for fun uses mostly roads. I have barelly 5% of my biking for commuting. 95% for fun and I stay on trail may be 15% of thos 95% for fun.

I already gave my take that there was a world of difference between someone who rides ONLY for fun and someone who ALSO rides for fun. That 5% matters a lot, especially if it’s regular riding. To be clear, I don’t even care much how many miles are in each bucket just so long as there’s some on the transportation side. Someone who rides ONLY for fun, assuming they do any road riding at all really (which most won’t) will choose roads not for whether they get them somewhere, but by whether they’re already fun. A group ride could make an un-fun road a fun one, but missing that feeling that you have to fend for yourself, there’s a limit to how much they inform someone’s perspective.

Mikhail wrote:Ben, you are wrong

byogman wrote:And again, I’m not saying mostly, I’m saying exclusively, because that’s what the poster said about himself, that he rides only for fun. So that nullifies most of the counterexamples.

ericf wrote:Your behavior exhibits a complete disregard for safety.