BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I've seen one parked inside the JCC garage before. I almost bought an ELF. I really like the vehicle. The staff at Performance told me, these meet all the PA requirements as a bicycle. When I went home and checked it out, the ELF does NOT meet the PA definition of a bike or the definition of an e-bike; it weighs too much. The ELF does meet the federal description of an ebike. I questioned Performance about it and they said, "we've believe federal standards trump state standards". I think it's wrong for Performance to sell these in PA when they don't meet state standards for e-bikes, without being explicit about the vehicle being non-compliant with state weight specs. The problem is, when you get pulled over by a police officer (who generally don't even get bicycle laws correct, let alone three-wheeled ebikes with a cabin) and the vehicle really doesn't meet PA standards, you're in a losing situation. Who needs to drop 5K on a ride that doesn't meet any state definition of a road-legit vehicle? I think the conflict shows the deficiency of the PA state definition of an ebike. The ELF's weight is in the structure and the panels; it's not 170 pounds of batteries and electric motors. The state's use of total weight seems to miss the point. It is a very cool transport machine.

Vannevar, I have sent you a pm. You correct, they are not legal e-bikes due to the weight. Hope it clarifies some stuff in your post. Cheers, Len

I appreciate Len's post. They are not legal ebikes in PA. Store staff told me: they're legal anywhere you can ride a bike in PA. It's wrong to sell a not-legal vehicle as street-legal. ---- Here's some facts and sources. The base ELF weights 160 pounds. http://organictransit.com/base-elf/ Go to the ELF FAQ http://organictransit.com/faq/ and click the question Are O-T vehicles legal across the US?

We design vehicles that are classified as bicycles under the federal guidelines listed in 15 U.S.C. 2085(b) which state that a vehicle must have a 750w or smaller motor, and have a top speed of 20 mph when driven by a 170 pound rider on electric power only. Some states and municipalities have created their own rules and regulations that govern electric assisted bikes and other e-vehicles that exceed the federal guidelines. As a manufacturer selling products across state lines, we obey the federal government. You should check your local rules and regulations to make sure you can use our products as you wish in your area. Wikipedia provides a useful starting point on electric bicycle laws.

(and helpfully there's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Pennsylvania ) the pertinent text (from the link at O-T) is:

The fine for riding an unregistered electric bike is approximately $160.00 per event as of 2007. On February 4, 2014, SB997 was introduced by Senator Matt Smith, which seeks to amend PA Vehicle Code to include "Pedalcycle with Electric Assist." In a memo addressed to all senate members, Smith said the definition shall include "bicycles equipped with an electric motor not exceeding 750 watts, weighing not more than 100 pounds, are capable of a maximum speed of not more than 20 mph, and have operable pedals."[102][103] On October 22, 2014 PA house bill 573 passed into law, which is Act 154, which changes the definition of "pedalcycle" (bicycle) in the PA state vehicle code. "Pedalcycle" is now defined as a vehicle propelled solely by human-powered pedals or a "pedalcycle" (bicycle) with electric assist( a vehicle weighing not more than 100 pounds with two or three wheels more than 11 inches in diameter, manufactured or assembled with an electric motor rated no more than 750 watts and equipped with operational pedals and travels at speeds less than 20 mph). This bill allows the usage of pedal assisted bicycles in PA that follow the adopted state guidelines.

So- a legal ebike (per PA) weighs not more than 100 pounds. The basic ELF weighs 160 pounds. Therefore: the ELF is not a legal ebike in PA. If it's not a legit in PA, Performance staff is misrepresenting their product. It would be wonderfully ethical and aboveboard if they had a placard and told people, "this is not a legal bike or ebike in PA". VB

when you drop $5000 or more on a purchase, you want to be able to use it legally in the state you purchased it in. You'd be legitimately upset to find out that you'd been misled and wasted your money.

Based on the way PA law works in every other respect, it is possible they will be street legal on or about 2115. Get em while they're hot.

Vannevar is right. It's obvious state law can be more restrictive that fed law on matters involving state roads. Performance bikes is being disingenuous by claiming otherwise.

Hm. It doesn't say it is illegal to sell these e-bikes. If I was the one dropping the $5K, I'd have done my homework. I wouldn't leave it up to the dude in the shop. Plus, the OTV web site says "check local laws…" So, why demonize the "Performance Bike staff"?

Because they've said “we believe federal standards trump state standards”. This is simply false. Everybody knows that states set their own standards for safety. Federal law establishes at most a minimum level, which states can exceed. Any store selling a product should be sure they are not misrepresenting its legality. That is a basic obligation of a seller.

I must be missing something here. If you like to bike, ride a bike. If you need more general transportation, either get on the bus or get something apropos. A Smart Car seems like a much better idea than this OrgTran thing. Though practically you probably would want a small pickup or such (or maybe manage with a Zip). I mean, c'mon, this biking thing is not a religion (at least not in the L. Ron H. sense). Let's be sensible.

I agree with the above statements. But couldn't you still use this in PA if you licensed it and you were a licensed driver? (Like how scooters get bumped up to motorcycle status above 150cc) I also think the seller should have a written opinion from a state official stating what the rules are for these before selling them. Customer service, right?

Laws aside, these things are being marketed as bikes: "The ELF can be used anywhere it is legal and safe to ride a bicycle: bike paths, bike lanes, roads with a decent shoulder, and roads with slower moving traffic." What an idyllic future, seeing our limited bicycle infrastructure being clogged with these stupid eggs.

Yeah, you have to dig down pretty far in the website and do some research to discover they're not legal in PA. Selling these as bikes is not something a responsible bike shop should be doing. As to the point I think they're trying to create a vehicle occupying the middle ground between a car and a bike. It doesn't make sense to use cars as much as we do, usually occupied by one person, with lots of empty space. OTOH using bikes in all weather on hilly roads isn't something most people are up for. So create something with an enclosed body like a car, but which can be powered by pedals or electricity. It's a reasonable thing to try. I have no problem with the product--just with the fact that it's being sold as a bike in PA when it's illegal to use it that way.

1 great vehicle, just isn't street-legal 2 i wish they were legal 3 nobody's demonizing anybody

21st Century problems, these are. Clearly, neither PA "Pedacycle", nor "NEV" laws anticipate a vehicle like the ELF, a three-wheel-pedal-driven-electric-assisted-plug-in-and-solar-vehicle under 20 MPH, but over 150 lbs… Please forgive my use of "demonize…" Rather, I think it is a lot to expect a shop employee to wrap their minds around these nearly-applicable, but not quite state laws, and how the relate to their federal counterparts. But to the point of the vehicle, and the subject of urban planning, urban cores, etc. Didn't London recently consider a tax for driving a car into the city center? And how different would Pittsburgh be if the city were to prohibit cars in the "golden triangle" street grid- just deliveries, buses, bikes, golf carts and these ELF thingies.

Well, again, if you're going to be selling something, you should make sure it's legal. I don't think it's only the shop employees responsibility to make sure of that; Performance Bicycles is a chain and they have a management structure that has pretty obviously failed here. I don't think the shop employee should be held fully responsible for standing up to their employer and refusing to give the sketchy "our position is..." response to the question about legality. But they did say it. Sometimes your employer wants to do things that aren't fully honest, I guess. It's not surprising that customers get angry when you do that. I suppose that's one of the drawbacks of working as some places. PS: As a general rule, if you're asked to sell something and your employer tells you to respond in any way other than "Yes" to the question "Is this legal?" you're being asked to do something you shouldn't.

That presumes a lot, Jon. I doubt there's a conspiracy afoot there. And besides, who in a bike shop would stop to think "is this thing street legal?" I know if I was Bike Shop Sales Dude, and some new product showed up and they told me to take it out of the box, slap a price tag on it and sell it, i'd be like, ok. I wouldn't ask my manager to prove it was street legal. But that's just me.

Yeah, so you'd answer "Of course it is," right? Not "our position is..." Do you see how that seems sketchy?

Um, I guess not. But sketchy or not, at the end of the day, why blow your steam here? Why not call, fax or email the shop and tell them how you feel? It sure seems like it's important to you.

It's actually not that important.

I am glad they are illegal in PA. That will hopefully keep people from buying them, and crashing in to me with them. To me, this 150lb behemoth is way dangerous. Limited visibility, questionable maneuverability (try any kind of evasive move or quick stop with an extra 120 lbs strapped to your bike). Not to mention the clusterf@$k that would occur at any bike rack with more than one of these.

Ah, but they're better than a car right? 160 pounds instead of 4000. As to visibility, they're not much worse than a recumbent. Which we tolerate, right?

Its's an interest grey area. On roads, for sure better than another car. On a trail, clearly bad news, rather have another car on the road. But that's already covered by a power restriction, no matter what happens with their overall legality, right? In bike lanes... it feels like the added width would be problematic, especially considering how marginal some of them can be even for regular bikes. Of course, all that's assuming we're replacing car traffic. If we're replacing bike traffic, it's poor.

I wrote the company. Here's what they said: "I wish I could be more helpful. This is what I found. Under the National Institute for Transportation, Communities and the Regulations of E-Bikes in North America, PA recognizes the ELF as a Pedalcycle with Electric Assist. However, I believe anything over 100lbs may need to be registered as a moped. We are selling them in PA and they are riding them without a problem. Hope this helps,"

@jonawebb wrote: "Ah, but they’re better than a car right? 160 pounds instead of 4000. As to visibility, they’re not much worse than a recumbent. Which we tolerate, right?" If they were being sold as cars, then yes, much better. As bicycles they suck.

I think these are great vehicles. The snafu says more about the time we're in and the mismatch of options and laws. My most recent fleeting semi-thought was about privilege and alt-trans. I could use one of these and deal with cop noise (older white male veteran middleclass). I cant imagine a person of color subjecting themselves to police interactions in this thing. Which again says more about us/now than the vehicle. Funny sort of vehicle that exposes so many sociological factors. They coulda called it the Lens.

If 150 lbs = behemoth, I'd better cut back on the donuts.

^What V said. In Europe, after WWII, people used vehicles like below because they needed to. Somehow, the wealth and success of the society we live in has restricted our range of options, not expanded them. Quite inexplicable.

That reminds me -- back in the Fifties and early Sixties my parents had a Gogomobil, which was basically a modified motorcycle with four wheels (the rear wheels connected to the engine with a chain drive) and a small car body around it. My older sister remembers hating that thing, having to wait in the back while it was broken down for one reason or another. Speaking of legality, one advantage of the Gogomobil was that it wasn't, legally, a car, because it didn't meet the horsepower requirements. So you could drive it without a driver's license.

Velocycles seem to be reasonably common in Europe (at least if you surf the web; haven't seen one live yet). I can see having one. But only if it looks something like this: Vroom.

There were two in TOSRV one year. Easily passing the rest of us at like 25 mph.

I know of a few folks who regularly commute in their velos, both European and here in the States. Velomobiles tend to be rare, as they cost as much as a small car in some cases. And even at 70+ pounds, riders of said velos have completed 1200K rides like Paris-Brest-Paris in less than 60 hours. Vroom indeed...

There was one point I was possibly looking at a longer commute again and considering a recumbent, fairings and whatnot to keep the times down somewhat. But the idea of something so heavy, and where most of the power comes from a battery, not me, just doesn't appeal because it'd be too tempting to let the motor do all the work and just sit on my ass.

Yesterday, I encountered two situations that would be damn difficult with or in a power-equipped machine whose power would crap out at the top of a hill. The first was McKnight Rd inbound just before the I-279 peel-off, the second was Wm Penn Hwy eastbound beyond Rodi Road, coming up to Penn Center East. Long long long uphills, very fast traffic, and noplace to be but smack dab in the center of the lane. If you solely relied on the motor to get you up the hill, you would be screwed royally if it stopped mid-way up those hills. Or on anything like them. Not so much the steepness as the length. If the machine makes you try things you would not otherwise try to do on a bicycle, you shouldn't do it in one of these. Again, this reminds me of my father's adage: "Anyone who cannot drive a stick shift has no business driving an automatic."

I'm OK with DUI folks riding bikes. I don't want to have a bunch of them on trails going 20 mph with a protective shell around them.