BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Not quite on topic, but very closely related, so probably need their own categories. So, with "A" being as described in the OP... B) Signaled intersections with poorly timed light cycles (which makes cyclists want to ignore them) C) Signaled intersections whose vehicular sensors do not detect the presence of a bicycle (so you have to invoke 75-3112c2)

There is a LOT of red light running in Pittsburgh in general. Far more than I've seen in any of the many places I've lived. It's extremely dangerous, and unfortunate that I see people doing it every single day. If I had to guess, it has less to do with intersection design and more to do with lack of enforcement of moving violations in general. At least in the city.

I'll go first with specifics: Type A, bad design: * Sixth St Bridge, downtown end, bike lane: If a bike is going straight and a car is turning right, that is a manufactured conflict, entirely avoidable by not having the bike lane in the first place. Cyclists: Take the goddamned lane, never mind the bike lane. I'm just waiting for the first mashed cyclist there. (It was very nearly me this morning, and I almost never use that bridge.) Type B, bad timing: * 11th St, Liberty Ave, Grant St fustercluck. It takes effing forever to get from southbound 11th to southbound Grant, by obeying the rules. Meanwhile, at least half the wait, if you're first in line you're looking at an empty intersection. I usually say fuck it and make the right on red (defying the NROR sign) onto Liberty, and wait out the cycle at the second red at the Busway, 50 feet later. Type C, bad sensor: * In the city, I can't think of any (that I've been through recently). Quite a few outside the city.

East Liberty Boulevard has a few: At Highland Avenue - if you are heading towards Bakery Square, the bike lane ends and you have to merge left into traffic in order to continue straight. This causes some issues with traffic that had been following you now trying to get in front of you to beat the light. If you are heading away from Bakery Square, you are required to go uphill (slowing you down) through an exclusive left turn lane. I often have to check my mirror a few times until I feel safe proceeding. At Negley Run - heading away from Bakery Square, the same thing happens that happens at Highland Avenue. Often times, I catch a bus trying to get to the shelter coming up behind me, he's going right, I'm going left, which can cause some tense moments. I'm sure there are others I will think of, but as of now, those are my inputs from the East Liberty Area.

More Type B: All the lights around Allegheny Center. * Federal southbound onto North Commons. * South Commons onto Sandusky. * East Ohio onto East Commons * Federal northbound onto South Commons ...at least those, which I deal with regularly. Unnecessarily long red cycles, signed NROR, I'm sure so that cars won't blow through at 32 mph and mow down pedestrians. There is zero chance in two of the above of conflict with other vehicles, as the turn culminates in a dedicated lane. For Federal onto North Commons, merging westward traffic is two lanes over, if you started in the curb lane. Type A: While I'm thinking of Allegheny Center, there's that nasty corner at West Ohio Street, where southbound cyclists should be in the second lane from the right curb (third from left). Right-curb lane becomes a right-turn-only lane. That, however, is both invitation for curb-hugging cyclists to try to go straight/southbound through there, where they have a high risk of getting mashed by cars turning right (motorists here being in the right and cyclist not), as well as cyclists properly in the third lane getting passed on the right by cars ignoring the RTO sign, then risking getting mowed down when making a lane change from third to curb lane. I have one of these on video from just a couple weeks ago.

Type A: Corner Centre Avenue and Penn Avenue. Leaving Target, how the heck is a bicyclist supposed to get onto Centre Avenue going west (towards Whole Foods)? There's a right-turn-only lane that you have to get across to get to the lane you want to be in, but (whenever I've tried) no reasonable way to get across that lane . There's always been a ton of traffic when I've tried to do that, and the problem is that when there's traffic it's impossible to do it, and when traffic stops it's also impossible because there's no bike box (space in front of the line of stopped traffic). You can walk your bike in the crosswalk and then just turn the bike around (still in the crosswalk) and get in front of a line of angry car drivers who were there first, but that seems really dangerous.

How your e supposed to do it: take the lane, and do exactly what a car would do. Or, if you're not comfortable with that, dismount and do what a pedestrian would do. I take the lane.

Jon - Thanks for your reply. My intersection problem is an unusual one, because I'm trying to figure out how to get back onto the street after bike parking. (Scenario is: Lock my bike to bike rack at Target, shop, then want to get back home or continue errands.) From the sidewalk at that corner, my current solution is to turn right (go north-ish) onto Penn, then at the light make a u-turn and go back to the problem intersection, and then turn onto to Centre going the way I originally wanted to go (towards Whole Foods). It took me awhile to figure it out, and it is definitely not an efficient way to cross the street, to go 2 round-trip blocks out of the way first.

This might not be quite the answer you want, but you could also go out Center to Broad (the corner of the Target property) then turn L and go to Highland, then L to Center. The traffic patterns are reasonably orderly.

Also consider not going straight to Center. It's kind of narrow there. So Penn to Highland to Center.

Also consider not going straight to Center. It’s kind of narrow there. So Penn to Highland to Center. Except that, as described in the original post, There’s a right-turn-only lane that you have to get across to get to the lane you want to be in. (My suggestion: go the other way from the bike racks, into the garage, and exit using the garage driveway's left-turn lane to get onto WB Centre.)

QUOTE STU "Type A, bad design: * Sixth St Bridge, downtown end, bike lane: If a bike is going straight and a car is turning right, that is a manufactured conflict, entirely avoidable by not having the bike lane in the first place. " You mean... like this? https://youtu.be/PwOjZuJ1rho

Note to @scott and others who have a say in matters at higher levels than us mere riders: If two experienced riders on this board (Colleen, myself) have the problem documented in her video above, how long is it going to be before somebody with less experience gets mashed here? See my post above for the other case. You can't fix this with different or more infrastructure. The only real solution is to get cars and cyclists to intermix, and to get motorists to slow the fuck down. In her video, I'd say that car is going at least 20 as it turns right, and was likely going 30+ before slowing to make the turn. Probably never saw her. The only question that needs to be discussed is how to get 85% of drivers to drive 25 or less without enforcement. On a bridge. [Can't see the plate on the right-hooking car on my equipment here. That driver needs a talking-to by someone in a uniform concerning 75-3331e.]

Why am I getting errors uploading images to forum? "An error occurred in the upload. Please try again later.", It says with red outline.

zzwergel: see discussion of image upload bugs in other thread: http://localhost/message-board/topic/message-board-updates-and-constructive-ideas/page/7/#post-335436 (yeah, it sucks, they need to fix it!)

What about the Liberty Ave., Grant St., 11th St. hodgepodge? I have a solution to this terrible traffic light. https://youtu.be/tXtaK39gp8M?t=826

And this on Forbes Ave. near the Birmingham Bridge. There should be a stop sign near the end of that ramp. There should also be a "Yield to bikes" sign with flashing lights as well as green paint. The speed limit is clearly posted as 25 MPH and I bet they are going close to 50-55 MPH. The city should station some cops here to write some hefty tickets to teach these bastards with 5000 pound speeding bullets a lesson. Also, There are more lanes past this point. Why do they insist they stay in the lane behind me and ride my butt? https://youtu.be/-UygiMB3-oA?t=422  

We need the radar/laser bills passed first for them to take speeding seriously in this state. Only state cops can use them.  Others need a stopwatch and road stripes.

@zzwergel's video was very useful; it let me do the ride without actually having to pay attention to drivers and such. Some thoughts on one part of the ride:

• The bit under the Birmingham Br and BOA overpass really needs a bike path over on the waste space to the right (which however had a couple of trucks parked in it; is that legal?) It would avoid car/bike conflicts on that climb up to Oakland.
• We need an on-demand crossing light where Forbes and the off-ramp merge. That's always a crazy spot.
• We need a bike-width curb cut at Ophelia so that bikers can climb that street, turn on Hamlet, and proceed from there. Yes, it's a bit out of the way, but trivially so. And it would be better for everyone. Sharrows, to make it obvious.
• For extra points, time the crossing light so that the average biker can get to Ophelia w/o having cars on their tail.

I keep thinking about this whenever I go up that way, but of course forget about it later.

Or better yet, Throw anyone driving a car or truck in jail if they cut off a cyclist. Also, weren't you originally able to access the Lawn St. and Ophelia St. cut from Forbes Ave. by car before the new B. O. A. bridge was built? They should get rid of the weave area and make it into a T-junction with a stop sign. They could also put a radar-activated traffic light there to stop anyone travelling over the speed limit and bust them for running a red light if they do not stop for a red light or stop sign.    

I agree that there are many possible approaches to resolving driver/cyclist conflicts. For example, I periodically find myself considering responses that, while personally satisfying, might likely be frowned upon by others. On a daily basis, pretty much. But, reflecting on how things might evolve in the long run, I sense that practical solutions are probably ones that contrive to allow both constituencies to go about their lives under arrangements that balance their needs in reasonable ways.

I think they should more readily remove the licenses of malicious lawbreakers in cars.  And put some teeth into the laws against driving with a revoked license.  I know drivers who think that would be cruel and unusual punishment.  I think it's common sense.

They theoretically already do with the point system. Too many points and license is gone. Points increase insurance rates. Rate limiting step is catching people in the act.   Would probably be more cost effective to start an education/advertising campaign using behavioral economic theories. Such as normalizing pro social behavior. 99.9 percent of people don't run red lights. Etc etc. Dqe is doing this with their home efficiency comparisons to similar houses in your neighborhood.

[apropos of enforcement issues] A long time ago I was talking with someone in law enforcement. I learned that people on bikes were assumed to be DUIs whose license had been revoked. I'm kind of hoping that this perception has changed over time... but it might explain some attitudes. At the same time, when I read about a bike accident on some road that bikers might otherwise avoid, I wonder if the biker was someone who just had to ride there. Maybe to get to their job.

@Ahlir Where did you get that image of a bike with a rifle? How about a bike with a bazooka?

Image Google "bicycle machine gun". Back in the good old days of WWI, armies had a bicycle artillery corps. They were thought to be more practical than horse-drawn setups.

On the topic of problem intersections (remember that?), North Shore Drive at Tony Dorsett Drive was noted at tonight's Walk Ride Northside meeting as being difficult for both peds and bikes. This is the corner where the Fort Duquesne Bridge footbridge and ramp touch the sidewalk. NSD has neither a light nor a stop sign, and current rules say they will remain that way. Why? Because NSD has four lanes, and that precludes having a stop sign with ped xing markings.

i am almost certain i have been through a stop sign on such a road, though unfortunately i can't seem to recall where.  (Babcock at one end of North Park or the other might be one, though it's been several years since i was up there.) it would seem to suggest either four lanes is too many, but i suppose that idea wouldn't float down there in stadium city.  perhaps a signal, then.

I suggested sticking a statue in the center of the intersection and making it a roundabout.

One of the best examples of a terrible intersection is in homestead. Amity St and E 7th Ave. 4 Lanes on amity, turning lanes on E 7th, and only an all way stop sign control. It's bonkers. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4072901,-79.9110868,3a,75y,335.17h,65.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV85RIpH2c2PUjhYKqaYtEQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

@Ahlir:  What is a crossing light? Does anyone know why I yelled "Stop!" at 8Min 29Sec?

@zzwergel -- I think you are following up on a youtube video of a ride you posted in another thread.   And by crossing light @ahlir meant any light setup that helps you cross the street.  An on-demand one could be the like the setup on Biddle and Braddock - -press the button and the lights go blinky and cars should theoretically stop for a pedestrian. It could also refer to the walk/don't walk signal or the red/green traffic light itself.