BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

« Back to Archive
20

Question about tires

It was a holiday today (not sure what, I heard it had something to do with having to put snowflakes on the side of your Starbucks cup) and the weather was warm. I was out in the backyard patching inner tubes. I took the opportunity to look more carefully at a tire that seemed to be getting a lot of flats (yes, a rear tire). On the inside there were several small holes where some sharp object had probably poked through. These were simply points, not tears or anything they might tell you to boot. But I started to wonder if I should do anything about it; for example inject something into the rubber to fill the hole (like, in the past, you'd do to a car tire). On a different tire I saw gouges in the tread, which somehow seemed wrong. I realize that it's actually all about the integrity of the fabric, but these were still holes. Anyway, I check the Sheldon but there's nothing on this issue (other than the advice to keep riding until the rubber wears off and the fabric peeks out). Should I be doing something more productive with my time other than worrying about this?
ahlir
2015-12-25 21:09:18
Forester has extensive tire-patching advice. He recommends filling the holes. With something, not sure what, never tried it
jonawebb
2015-12-25 22:17:19
I tend to follow an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach about such things, so I haven't tried patching the tire itself (as opposed to tubes, which I patch until they're hopeless). I would guess that if you were to seal up a hole somehow, you'd want a sealant that's about the same hardness as the rest of the tire. If your patch were much harder than the tire then that would hasten failure of the tire or a puncture to the tube, I suspect. An exception to this mañana approach to tire repair is that I sometimes use the dollar bill trick on a weak spot of a tire. But I've seen dollar bills, used for months, cause abrasion to an inner tube, resulting in leaks.
paulheckbert
2015-12-26 00:34:00
A swatch of duct tape on the inside of the tire can work well.
reddan
2015-12-26 10:45:06
"On the inside there were several small holes where some sharp object had probably poked through. These were simply points, not tears or anything they might tell you to boot." In this situation I clean the outside of the tire with rubbing alcohol, eliminate any remaining moisture with a hair dryer, and coat about a 3/4" area on the outside of the tire with Shoe Goo. I imagine there are better products than Shoe Goo out there (perhaps Aquaseal urethane adhesive, some fabric repair glue, etc.), but I have not tried them. The Shoe Goo doesn't last forever, but it works well enough. What you are trying to prevent is road grit getting pushed into the tire, then wearing a pinhole in the tube. If you have a small sidewall tear that would warrant a tire boot, you can glue a traditional inner tube patch into the inside of the tire, and apply Shoe Goo or the like to the outside to protect the inner patch. I have saved a few expensive road and mountain bike tires this way. As for whether this is productive, if patching $5 inner tubes is an effective use of your time, I would guess that repairing $25-$50 tires is as well. The repair will certainly take less time than going to the store for a new tire.
jmccrea
2015-12-26 11:05:05
Sorry for the delay. First, thank you all for your feedback! I found it really useful. Jacob's post made me go out and get a tube of Shoe Goo (I do also own shoes that would benefit). On reflection, I think the economics of patching make sense. Most of the time/effort in replacing a flat have to do with the mounting/dismounting the tire, zipping/crimping the tire and yanking/stuffing the tube. I can't say I did this with a stopwatch but patching is a <5min job. My last batch patch purchase [sorry] worked out to 18¢ a patch. And these were of the "premium" type. Last time I paid $1.99 for a tube, at Performance. The time needed to find, unpack and fluff a new tube is probably on the order of 5 mins. I'll spot you the shopping time. (Should I be buying something other than commodity tubes? I'm just a Cat 7...) Anyway, since we're on the interweb, below is a gallery of pics featuring a front tire. Some preface: The tire is inflated and on the bike. I used flash for the photo. Before each shot I used my finger to rub off road dirt. There's more of these things on the tire. I have no idea why the insides of the holes look like they have something reflective in it: if you just look at them they're black. Or maybe I should go back and check (these smartphones are sumthin', huh?) The gouges (1st two pics) are shallow depressions, like a crater; the next two are slashes. "gouges" "slashes" Up next is unscrewing the Shoe Goo tube and squeezing a bit into the gouges to level them out. (I will alcohol rub as prep.) Once dry, cutting off any protrusion. Then riding to see if the stuff actually stays in there.
ahlir
2015-12-28 21:39:13
A +1 on using Shoe Goo. It will extend the life of a tire that would otherwise be replaced because of constant flats. To reiterate what Jacob said, it doesn't last forever so be sure to check up the spots where you have used it.
chrishent
2015-12-29 06:42:31
I've used silicone sealant for situations like this, because that's what I had around. I would force it into the hole from the inside of the tire and not even worry about the outside, since it's going to wear off anyway, and the idea is to keep grit out. With any repair goo, I would probably put a piece of scotch tape over the repair after it dries as a bond breaker, or some talc, just to make sure it doesn't adhere to the tube over time in contact. I could see that being a pain in the butt if you got another flat on the road.
edmonds59
2015-12-29 09:46:58
I can’t say I did this with a stopwatch but patching is a <5min job.
It should be more. Especially for a high pressure tire. When you apply "rubber cement" let it dry comletely before you apply patch itself. It would take easily more then 5 minutes (depends on weather, temperature, humidity, etc). And when patch is applied you have to apply pressure for another couple minutes. I use plastic patch box to stay on it (tube on aspahlt patch up, box on the top). It allows patch-tire-glue to bond chemically in a real strong way.
mikhail
2015-12-29 12:35:08
Yes, you're right, there's the adhesive curing time. But as you point out, you can stick stuff on top to keep it under weight. You don't hang around for that part. I've used a pump as a rolling pin; I like to believe that works. Picky readers might point out that finding a small puncture takes time, especially when you end up having to dunk the tube in water. But hey, I grew up in a world where pants got patched and socks got darned. No, really. On the road it's better to bring along tubes; you can patch them back home when you start running out of intact ones.
ahlir
2015-12-29 14:20:40
I don't know what you guys are talking about. You apply the rubber cement, sparingly, let it dry, which doesn't take that long unless it's really cold, then put on the patch. Then you put the tube in the tire and mount it. You don't sit around waiting for things to cure.
jonawebb
2015-12-29 14:35:33
Yow -- that tire looks really old and worn. I do understand the desire to get as much use as possible out of things, but especially in winter I also put a premium on staying upright, which means grip, and with most of the outer rubber off at a minimum you are riding on the equivalent of a completely smooth racing tire, and more likely on compound that just doesn't grip the road very much. In my opinion safety is worth new tires.
neilmd
2015-12-31 18:18:09
Well, I dunno. All the reading up I've done on it suggests that tire pattern doesn't matter for road tires; it's a marketing thing. All the grip comes from the road surface, which is like sandpaper. A smooth tire affords more gripping surface than a patterned one. The racing tire people have it right. Also road burn. Metal plates and rail tracks are, of course, different. Be careful. While too lazy to confirm it, I've formed the theory that the white stuff at the bottom of the cavities in my pics might actually be fiber. But the tires work. So until I start seeing actual patches of it (or chunks of rubber ripping off, like with retread car tires) I'll just tool along. Winter is a challenge. I do not have studded tires and I'm too much of a coward to be out when there's likely ice on the pavement. Salted roads are safer; just remember to coast easy over anything that looks like it might be ice. Snow is actually not a big deal: bike tires have a tight contact area and cut right through to the pavement. You get a solid grip. In deep (-ish) snow I found myself pedaling right past cars that were edging along, sliding around. But yes, rationally or not, I would feel more confident with some kind of a pattern on the tire. I should note that the pics are of a tire on my "nice" bike, not the one I use for commuting, the one most likely to encounter snow. That one (still) has tread.
ahlir
2015-12-31 21:03:18
Ahlir: that's not a bad tire. This is a bad tire. (One of the cyclists on the Every Pittsburgh Neighborhood ride; he got a few flats that day.) My Matrix Cross Country Kevlar 38mm, the day I got a flat:
paulheckbert
2016-01-02 16:51:35
Jeez- I have found tires in the trash that were in a lot better shape than those pictures, and some that I have continued to use. Generally when the tire is showing threads or inner tube, I feel it is time to get a new one. Usually a year or so for me, depending on how much use they had.
helen-s
2016-01-02 17:50:22
Paul, this tire became bad (like in your pictures) when we got up to Mt. Washington and started to descent a steep hill) because he block his rear whell completely. When we fixed his tire at Jacob's garage and started to ride hte very first steep downhill caused the sme issue -- rear wheel and rode like this for 2-3 yards (just in front of me). I just cried: "Don't lock it!" and it exploded.
mikhail
2016-01-03 02:30:55
I've patched too many tubes to count over the years and consider it to be a worthwhile endeavor. I do it mostly because I don't like wasting resources and it works reliably. I would agree that doing it right takes a little time but not too long. The old kit instructions used to say something like, use the "back of finger test" to make sure the glue is no longer tacky. That time period is relatively short, depending upon weather conditions, as has been described. Regarding tire conditions, I personally wouldn't recommend riding on any tires with obvious defects. A blowout could occur with potentially disastrous results. I was also on that ride with the seriously defective tires shown above. It's one thing to go on a ride yourself with those tires but one really should not show up for a group ride with equipment in such condition. We fixed his flats a couple of times before the final blowout occurred, on a very steep hill, and he had to leave the ride and walk somewhere. There is a thick "elastic" band insert that fits between the tube and the inside tire wall. I have one that I use sometimes. I've had it for many years. It is still intact and I never have gotten a flat when it is in place. I usually employ it when a tire is becoming worn but not worn through or when going riding in an area where the probability of a getting puncture flat is greater.
fultonco
2016-01-03 08:06:13
Was that every neighborhood cyclist a novice rider? A couple of times in the past I had some tire issue that caused like a boil to form, and I'd put a boot in it, but because the tire was still protruding, the boot would just get worn out. Luckily, I haven't had any issues since using schwalbe marathon pluses
sgtjonson
2016-01-04 12:24:30
@Pierce To the contrary, the rider was experienced. I think the rider was simply a busy person who procrastinated on bike maintenance. Until the final blowout, the rider was handling the ride and all the hills quite well.
fultonco
2016-01-04 17:22:08
I had catch the ride around Penn and 33rd -- I was a little bit late and went all the way to Butler/Penn to check it. I was behind him and tire was normal as he claimed. The first spot appeared on the Mt.Washinton as soon as we descent somewheer on Alice St -- it was paved but with some gravel on it and rear wheel was blocked first time for around 2 yards. It was enough. By some reason this person is not using front brakes on steep descents. BTW the teenager who rode the whole route did the same going down Stanton. :(
mikhail
2016-01-05 22:13:18