BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

From my (relatively limited) experience in the cycling community, and the amount of folks I've gotten on two wheels, Id say, or would like to think, that cycling is becoming more popular with the folks who aren't necessarily "bike nerds". As a side effect of this, more people are becoming interested and starting to care about us being second class citizens, and wanting to do something about it.

As long as we keep up our efforts to educate the public on things like rights to the road, I think we'll see a significant change in public attitude in the coming years. Just don't stop fighting.

I'm not sure that cyclists are necessarily the only recipients of such boorish and/or dangerous behavior. There are some road users (yes, drivers, mostly) who genuinely have anger/rage issues and can't see beyond the end of their noses. Their behavior, however, is directed at ANYONE else on the road who is in their way. Road rage is an issue for anyone, not just cyclists. We just happen to be easier targets because we aren't in shiny metal boxes. In the past month or so, my wife and I have experienced the following:

1. I was driving our van on Thomas Blvd in North Point Breeze, at the posted speed limit. I was passed on the right by another car, horn a-blazin'.

2. I was passed on ELB (again, in the van, following the speed limit, which is 35 mph) by another vehicle in the BIKE LANE. Again, lots of honking and yelling by that driver.

3. My wife was passed on ELB in a similar manner while on our scooter.

4. At the I70/I79 interchange in Washington, PA, I watched two cars drive through the grass at the north-bound split in order to jump ahead in Memorial Day traffic.

I agree it's far easier to treat a cyclist as a second-class citizen, and we are far, far, far more vulnerable to injury or worse, and that's not okay. But I think a majority of the drivers out there who treat cyclists like dirt treat most other people like dirt, too.

Ooof. Watch the Civil Rights metaphors there... I agree with your sentiments and cycling is very important to me but unlike race it's a conscious decision, you're not born into it... just sayin'

Rob,

I agree, Im not a bike Nerd (just a normal garden variety nerd) I'm a big fat giant of a man who looks kinda strange on a bike but to tell the truth I never feel better than I do when im on my bike.

I have long been a supporter of doing the right thing and being understanding. However more and more I begin to think that reason we are ignored for the most part is that we don't speak up, that we don't get tired of it all, and when push comes to shove we move to the back of the bus (not being racist here, just going with the Rosa Parks, Andrew Goodman reference from above.)

Now before the troll and flames can get started I am not talking about violence doing anything to harm anyone one else. In fact the more I sit here typing to more I realize what I am talking about is Satyagraha Non-violent resistance (which is just what Rosa Parks did) I myself am still trying to comprehend what that would look like.

Mustion,

I agree, I am not talking civil rights and am only using it as a metaphor. Further more, I am only picking up the metaphor from the Other thread. I am not trying to link the rights of cyclists with the rights of any man or woman to be free from discrimination. However I am willing to say that I am proud of what the civil rights workers were willing to pay for what they believed in. I am using them not as a metaphor but as inspiration.

Got it. Wasn't trying to troll, just letting my PCU-esque education get the better of me. We really do need to take our words off of this board and turn them into actions outwardly.. I agree.

I agree with Brian and Rob.

Though i also think there is some anger that is directly aimed at cyclists. After being passed way too quickly and way too fast I had a guy in a BMW tell me, "I'm not going to be told the law by someone on a bike."

(Though not the most constructive reply, I said, "I drive a BMW too *sshole." He didn't have much to say after that.)

btw, Brian, Dan mentioned you got a scooter, what did you get?

btw, Brian, Dan mentioned you got a scooter, what did you get?

2005 Honda Metropolitan. We would have loved something a bit more European, but couldn't part with the cash. Good fun, though.

Also...two winters ago, myself and friend manage to get out for a nice ride just after Christmas. A woman pulled next to us in her BMW on Fox Chapel Road, informed us she was a lawyer and that the law said we were not allowed to ride on the road. My friend and I looked at each other, shrugged, and bade her a Merry Christmas.

"I gave up riding a bike when I turned 16 and got my drivers license"

lol.

I'll take responsibility for the Rosa Parks thing, and I can definitely see the pitfalls of making that metaphor, so I gratefully accept that you pointed that out. Esp in light of the recent Rand Paul disaster. Uggh.

As dback, I consider her an inspiration, and I think what really connected for me was that in an unacceptable situation, she stood her ground and said "no". That's what I'm going to when a driver tells me to get off the road, I'm going to try not to flip the bird, or call offensive names, I'm going to shout at the top of my lungs "NO".

The other major fault in my thinking alluded to by dback is that Rosa was around to stand for herself, Donald Parker is no longer here, so we who are still here have to stand for him. No more waiting for that person.

Welcome large man.

Brian, those are fun. My ex-girlfriend had one. Maintenance is almost nonexistent.

I have an Italian Aprilia that is a blast, but a constant headache.

In my personal experience, the majority of BMW are jerks/idiots/horrible drivers.

Rob, I bet that guy is the type of guy who drags his feet on the ground all the way through first gear.

On a more positive note, I know of more and more people that are getting on bikes. I have a bunch of friend who I met through cars that love riding. I think it is common, because the fun parts of cycling (the rush, the geek-out, the parts collecting) are very similar to the fun parts about cars.

The admin of Pittsburgh's more popular automotive forum is actually a cyclist, and one of the guys working on the ghost bike web documentary that was started last year.

I think the best way to improve the situation is to be mature, professional, and to stand our ground. I think the worst thing we can do for cyclist rights and safety is to run lights and blow through stop signs, using "well cars put me in danger all the time/cars don't stop/cars don't give me room" as an excuse.

Don't forget: we have a scooter gang. http://scootnyinzers.ning.com/

Joe, I'm a member!

Scootin Yinzers (modern Italian) is only one of a few scooter gangs. There is also Pittsburgh Vintage Scooter Club (vintage Italian--Vespa/Piaggio, Lamberetta), and a club of old guys on maxi-scoots.

I don't think there is an Asian/Japanese specific scooter club though.... scooter clubs are really lame anyhow...

(How long before someone calls me racist?)

maxi-scoots? Sounds like a feminine hygiene problem.

to the OP, I think there probably is an increase in incidents and injustice because of the increase in people cycling. I really think it's one of those "it gets worse before it gets better" kinds of things. Eventually people will get more used to coping with cyclists on the road, but getting there takes time.

At first there's lack of awareness, then annoyance, then attempting to intimidate to maintain the status quo and eventually acceptance and adaptation will come. And I don't just mean this for drivers, but how we are handled as road users by police, reporters, local government, etc.

I agree. I think there has to be a certain threshold where there will be a wide spread acceptance. I think the best way to get there is to get more people on bikes.

The only barometer that we often use is how much people honk or yell at us. However, I feel like the majority of people out there don't have such pent up anger and most of them want to safely pass a cyclist. I've had many people tell me that they don't know what to do with a bicyclist on the road. However, I feel like as they deal with more cyclists, the average driver knows how to handle these situations better. The road rage crew may always be with us, but at least more of the average drivers are learning how to safely pass and interact with riders.

i honestly don't think that this claim has any merit. i haven't had a car in a long time and i definitely don't think things are getting any worse in the big picture, and i'd be willing bet just about anything that things are getting better. while american society is undoubtedly caught up in car culture (and will be for a long long time), its really not fair to compare what cyclists deal with with any other social justice issue. we can get off our bikes and walk away from the culture at any time.

this is not to say that we have any reason to put the bikes away, or even have reason to ride less. right now we're at a crucial tipping point where cycling is going mainstream in pittsburgh (and many other medium sized cities), the reason we got to this point is that cycling is more attractive than ever, but motorists just aren't used to it. eventually there will be so many cyclists on the road that everyone will know one and everything will chill out (this is santa cruz speaking through me)

another major difference now is organization. through bike pgh and the internet we get to hear about every little thing that ticks through any cyclists head at any point in the day. this is a major change from 10 years ago when even mtb people and road bike people hardly interacted with each other, now we have people racing floyd landis talking to people who have literally not been on a bike for 25 years. this is unprecedented, especially for a group like cyclists which aren't really connected by anything else than a mode of transportation.

we're doing great, and there are even better things to come.

Mark, my boss (who lives in Santa Cruz and commutes by bike) says it's not all roses there. Cyclists still deal with grumpy, selfish motorists. That said, given the infrastructure that is already in place, and the number of bikes on the road (I rode the bus once from Santa Cruz up the mountain toward San Jose one day, and there were three bikes on the rack), Santa Cruz is in a much better place than we are. FWIW, if we could afford to live in something besides a trailer, we'd move out there immediately. It's a really awesome place.

meh. once you get beyond the lost boys bridge and the board walk, i didn't find SC very interesting. the downtown area is def set up more for bikes, but i didn't think it was anything that we couldn't accomplish.

Why all the hate, Erok?

I think the amount of spectacular riding around Santa Cruz is really a draw, both road and MTB.

very true. very true.

@Joe and Brian; I didn't know there was a scooter group in Pittsburgh other than the Vintage Group. Awesome! I'll be checking it out in a minute. Was part of the vintage group with a 1980 Honda Aero, but sold that and picked up a much more reliable Yamaha Vino (125). Awesome scoot!

Hi, I don't post here much but I definitely lurk these boards a lot, as I have friends who are active in the cycling community. I kind of want to tell a cautionary tale about books and their covers and all that.

I live in the suburbs and have an SUV and a pickup truck, which is even lifted a little bit. On paper, I sound like the kind of guy that would have nothing to do with the cycling community. My cars look like the kind out of which you'd expect to hear, "Get off the road!" However, you'll never hear that from me. I tend to pass cyclists in the other lane only when it's safe to do so. If it's not safe, I stay back, 40-50 feet or so, until it is safe. I've been honked at by cars behind me for staying back, going the same 20 mph as the cyclist when it wasn't yet safe to pass. The unfortunately result is that the cyclists invariably turn around, see a Jeep or a pick-up, and assume it was me doing the honking. Then I get glares or fingers. I can't plead my case whilst traveling, so I just carry on, saddened by the misunderstanding.

My choice of vehicles has painted me as an enemy. I read a lot on this board where people cast blanket statements about pick-up and SUV drivers. The problem with blanket statements is they're always wrong. There's at least one SUV/pickup driving suburbanite out there that totally supports cyclists rights.

What does this post have to do with this thread? I guess I just wanted to chime in to let you know that there are folks on the other side of the steering wheel that support your community. Not every car (or SUV or pickup) driver out there wants you off the road. As I driver, I am embarrassed by those assholes that cause trouble for you. Those same assholes cause trouble for the other drivers out there, too.

Keep on fighting to be seen as first-class road users, but please don't lump all drivers into the asshole category, even if we drive cars that look decidedly 'merican.

joe: 5 minutes later, still laughing about maxi-scoots.

Jsmith,

I hope you didnt see me lumping anyone in, the comment I made about the girl in the SUV screaming that I belong on the sidewalk was made because a girl in an SUV screamed at me that I belong on the sidewalk.

While it is true that I have taken the view that while riding I expect every car to be driven by a distracted uncaring person who is actually trying to harm me I do this not because every car to be driven by a distracted uncaring person who is actually trying to harm me but by doing so I am better prepared when I run across the distracted driver or the one who thinks i need to be put in my place or simply the one who doesn't understand that he is way to close and going way to fast.

Heck I have almost been taken down by a friend who saw me riding and beeped a 'hi' as she passed she didn't realize what could happen. So I just want you to know that I am not lumping all drivers in to the A**hole category nor do i believe we should, I think we need to lump all drivers into the 'That car is larger than me and can hurt me' category and keep our eyes open, when we are on our bikes and when we are behind the wheel.

Point taken. I actually saw like a blue 1949 Chevy PU this morning that made me reconsider any nasty thing I may have ever said about them.

I agree with you 100% dbacklover. You're improving your odds by assuming that every car on the road is going to do something stupid. I wasn't referring to your post from this thread in particular, but rather to a general sentiment on this board and amongst cyclists out there, off the linked-up computers where anyone in a truck or SUV is a bike-hating asshole. It's probably only mostly true.

Assholes drive all kinds of cars, but the vehicle of choice seems to be the truck. Personally, I have just as many run-ins with people driving 20-year-old rusty civics that shouldn't have passed inspection. I've also been honked off the road by minivans, which when pass me have a rack full of bikes hanging off the back. Just assume they're all going to kill you, and act accordingly.

One of my favorite experiences was getting honked and yelled at by someone driving a Volvo with a "No Blood for Oil" bumper sticker.

See? There may be trends among the types of cars driven by assholes, but assholes drive all kinds of cars and all kinds of cars are driven by non-assholes. I'm not saying I'm not an asshole; I'm just not the kind of asshole to tell you to get off the road.

"I'm not saying I'm not an asshole; I'm just not the kind of asshole to tell you to get off the road."

This should be on a coffee mug or something.

Am I wrong?

No you're not wrong.

Am I wrong?

You're not wrong, Walter, you're just an asshole.

+1 to coffe mug. Does anyone have a zazzle store? I'd buy one!

I've been having a bad driver/pedestrian interaction week. Every work day this week it was something... beeped at one day, shouted at and flipped off another, and then last night I had a teen step in front of me as I was heading up Greenfield Ave. His friends urged either him or I to "Ram the fat f***!"

I just keep trying to remember that these are only 3 people out of something like 3-400 that I probably pass on my daily commute. They really are a tiny minority... just incredibly vocal.

I had some Camry pass me with about 6 inches of room this morning on Panther Hollow (going downhill). The windows were open, so I yelled at them, but they kept going. There weren't any other cars on the road, so I couldn't figure out why they didn't change lanes (it is a 2 lane road). I caught up with said car at a stoplight next to Schenley Plaza and (did my best to keep cool) politely asked them when they passed a cyclist again to give them more room, and if its two lanes to change lanes. It was an old lady who didn't speak English driving, but her kid sitting in the passenger seat did the best job she could to translate. I think it was a positive interaction.

I had a similar run-in maybe a 4-6 weeks ago with a different car in almost the exact same spot, and caught up to the car at the same stoplight. Again, the old lady driving didn't speak English (or at least pretended not to), but I was pleased my Hindi was good enough that when I told her she almost killed me, and was not good at driving cars, her face turned from confused/shocked to squinty/angry. She said "okay, okay, sorry" and slowly drove away.

@jsmith: I drive a car too, and I know that the drivers of certain types of vehicles are more likely to be jerks than others, all out of proportion to how few of them are on the road. Volvo T-60s, for instance. I don't know why. But on the other hand, how often do you get screamed at by someone in an Accord? There are a LOT of those on the roads, but not many screamers. I think that people who buy Accords or Camrys just don't feel like they have a lot to prove. There is a reflection, perhaps a cause, in the kind of ads that run on TV. Honda ads don't say things like "I'm not backing down for anybody. Not when I'm driving two tons of iron fist wrapped in a velvet glove." I guess if Dodge's customers found that kind of sentiment offensive, they would stop buying Ram pickups. So perhaps you may understand why I assume that the drivers of Ram pickups are tacitly endorsing road rage.

Is that really a RAM ad? Wow. I skip commercials. FWIW, my truck isn't full-sized. Or a dodge.

Does it have rubber testicles hanging off the back?

EDIT: I just noticed the truck in the photo on that wiki page has PA plates

90% of the time that i pulled up to a 4 lane road in santa cruz (think pulling up to the intersection of baum and gold way) traffic on both sides would stop and allow me to cross, usually fast enough that i didn't even have to take my feet off the pedals. and they would smile about it. did i get honked at a couple times? sure... but the attitude towards pedestrians and cyclists there is so vastly different it's kind of scary, i'm really excited about the idea that pittsburgh could be there eventually but i'm not holding my breath... its just a different lifestyle here.

@dwillen: You want to rile up someone with nuts on his truck? Ask him, "So, you're telling me you like balls so much that you decided to add them to your prize possession?" No, it doesn't have truck nuts.

Dan, when I first saw "truck-nuts" they were on a car in the Castro. I always assumed they had something to do with the GLBT community...

Lyle, I think you're right. With my years in automotive service I started seeing several trends among owners of certain makes and models.

@jsmith - I guess there are two of us: I'm the OTHER asshole who supports cycling and rides himself, but just happens to drive a pick-up - sans rubber testes.

Wonder if I could get a set of those for my Cannondale?

Bike Balls?

@AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe - Hang some of these from your saddle. http://www.bullsballs.com/keyring/balls.html

http://www.bullsballs.com/keyring/balls.html

Perfect size for hanging from the saddle. Saw these once in CA, no joke.

A friend of mine already has those - well, at least one. His blinky broke and he affixed it to the seat with a mess bunch of tape, so it hangs down and swings around. I'm not sure how effective it is in that position but it sure is funny.

i have a 4 door blazer and a sticker on my road bike that says "i hate your suv" make of that what you will...

Cburch,

Just because you hate someone else's SUV doesn't mean you have to hate yours.

Now, put a bunch of red LEDs in each rubber testicle, hang it off the seat suspension, and make that your bike's taillight. Blinking testicles, geez, what next?

Blinking testes - that's scrotastic!

dback, the best part will be when the bike is facing out from the hitch rack on MY suv proudly displaying that sticker on my way to the ms150 this weekend!

haven't read any of this, but this is the only thing that's popped into my head.

joey belladonna sings the words second class citizen

http://www.webikeeugene.org/index.php/2010/06/editorial-30-days-in-prison-is-not-enough-for-killing-a-cyclist-by-driving-recklessly

track balls?

I've recently started riding more this summer after a few years of not riding much. I've noticed a vast difference in drivers' behavior toward cyclists from when I rode in Pittsburgh just a few years ago:

* It's really common now that a car will come up behind me, wait for a spot, and pass me with a nice big margin - no stress whatsoever. This hardly ever happened 8 years ago, cars would hover awkwardly and then pass too close or cross all the way into the other lane.

* I rarely get honked at when I take the right lane on a 4-lane road.

* When I position myself for a left turn nobody drives around me or looks at me like I'm crazy.

* Cars routinely yield to me at traffic lights when they should (for example, I'm going straight and they're turning left).

* On some roads, cars seem to be waiting for me to look back at them before they consider passing me. I don't really need that, but it's a sign that they have some understanding about how to drive a bike.

Having so many more cyclists on the road these days has really made a difference. (It's probably partly because drivers get used to sharing the road with responsible cyclists, and partly because more drivers _are_ cyclists!)

You might not see it, but trust me, things have really changed for the better in the last 3-8 years. They're not perfect, no argument there, but I'm very optimistic that things will continue to get better for us.

ErinK - I have seen the changes and I agree they are for the better, I just think we also have a long way to go. when I talked of being a second class citizen I think we are second class but I have to admit that in being second class it is step up from where we were.