BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

A Tony Kornheiser listener, perhaps?

Maybe they knew you, or someone on the sidewalk?They thought your rear wheel was out of true?

This might have been a chance for some education to take place, but unfortunatley the horning driver may not have been willing to have a conversation.

If they were a Tony K. follower, they just would have hit you.

@stu: Tony has actually crossed my mind during my last couple rides. Well actually not "Tony" literally, but "that waste of human tissue on that station I never listen to". (I'm making an effort not to learn his name.) But although I've worried a little about him having some effect on the quality of my rides, the world seems to be offering the same proportion of nice drivers and twisted souls. OTOH, it only takes one. (also, what helen said.)

@helen: Darn! I think my rear wheel *is* out of true - I've been meaning to work on it but keep putting it off/forgetting. I bet they were trying to help: maybe even had a truing stand in their trunk ready to go, we could have set up right on the sidewalk. How foolish I feel. To have kept them from doing a good deed, frustrating their intentions to the point that they were driven to lean on the horn as they passed. I hope they get a chance to help someone else before too long, that'd probably make them feel better.

I had a car ride up my ass tonight in downtown. I was dragging a trailer and had 2 tail lights but it didn't matter he still revved up my ass. So I pulled to the right lane when I was able to safely and the car passes me. To my surprise it was a cop and he had his passenger side window open glaring at me like I did something wrong. Also earlier today I came to a intersection and waited for a crosswalk, as soon as I got it I started to cross. Some jerk trying to take a right off of 2nd ave onto the street I was crossing started laying on his horn and told me to "get my fat ass across the road". I yelled to him that I have a crosswalk and at that point he laid on his horn again and stayed on it in till I was out of earshot.

i usually let these people pass if its a long stretch where i know i will stay with traffic, then I pass them as soon as i would have normally pass someone... then if they do it again I do the same thing till they get the point or one of us turns... usually its just funny, once it ended with the person trying to hit me when i passed them for the second time... oh well...

sometimes i wish i had my air horn hooked up again so i could sit behind people and blast it at them.

One of the funniest moments like this for me was when I was traveling towards "East Side" on Highland Ave. I was stopping in traffic and was right behind a line of cars that were also stopped. The person behind me honked their horn at me like I could do anything about the traffic ahead of us. I turned around and just looked at them puzzled and pointed at all the traffic in front of us and shrugged my shoulders.

The "think how much more fun you're having..." approach doesn't work for me at all, it's bull. You have the right to be pissed off at this idiot, not the reverse. He intruded on the nice day you were having, and pooped on it. Take that little ember of anger and fan it, then toss it into your mental collection of "why things need to change", then move on with your nice life. The idiot driver has moved on and is probably angry with something new, his kids, his wife, the way the stupid birds are chirping, f*k him. Incidents like that just drive me to ride even more, I channel it into the pedals. It's a great motivator.

"The idiot driver has moved on and is probably angry with something new, his kids, his wife, the way the stupid birds are chirping, f*k him"

F! Yeah! It's really hard not to let other people's negative karma affect your positive life. I've got a wife, kids, and sometimes those god damned birds...

Letting go of jagoff comments from jagoff drivers is no diffeerant than any of the other challenges that you face on any given day. Yeah, it sucks but for now it's still part of the game. Keep riding and F**K HIM!

wow, this is great. I went home yesterday to deal with some family crap, and came back to all this good stuff. thanks all.

@willie: omg. what a couple of jerks. It'd be so nice if the ill-informed, offensive driver category didn't include (some) cops. gad. And the guy laying on the horn for so long? I get pissed just thinking about people doing that. Then again, you said he did it until you were out of earshot, and once you were out of earshot, I suppose he could have still been blaring. I'm choosing to imagine that his horn got stuck, and is still blaring somewhere, really pissing off his 300 lb power-lifting neighbor.

Thansks edmonds59, this ("He intruded on the nice day you were having, and pooped on it.") created a mental image, and I needed a laugh. As it happens, though, I *don't* need to fan any of my embers. (I have the self-fanning sort, generally I need to encourage them in the other direction.) Anyway, I can get pissed at entitled drivers, and I can have really strong opinions about how things ought to be for cyclists, but I think it's true that if someone's acting like a complete asshat, it's a fair bet that they're not, at that moment, filled with euphoria, sitting on top of the world. And I'm getting that high off riding my bike (even with the poop) so there's some value there for me. (Doesn't mean I'd be less likely to act if an opportunity arose to make life harder for people who drive like this, it's just an internal mechanism to try to keep from going into meltdown.)

@rsprake: yes! makes one want to go up to these people and say "what *exactly* is the issue troubling you here?" except, of course, that I don't really (really don't) want to interact with these people at all. (see self-flaming embers problem)

@mark: mmm. airhorn. nono. will.not.get.airhorn. breathe. ok I'm good.

@chefjohn: yeah! and thanks. I've been trying* lately to get off my habit of using words suggesting diminished mental capacity in describing people who behave hideously and leave me pissed off. (Mainly because there are some lovely people out there with diminished mental capacity who don't deserve the association with these people or the derisive connotation they inspire.) And I end up running through my vocabulary looking for a good (stress releasing) choice. Stupid. no. moron. no. idiot. sigh. Jagoff! perfect. thanks again.

*just trying. mainly failing, but still trying.

@Willie To my surprise it was a cop and he had his passenger side window open glaring at me like I did something wrong

This is one of the few situations where you could probably get someone to talk to the guy. If you got the number from his car or the licemse, any ID. A few emails would have someone talk to him.

of course, it wouldn't be much, but at least he would be forced to think about it again.

@ Bikefind Ok, so some people have this little monster gnawing on the inside of their brain, saying "can't be behind a bike, can't be behind a bike, can't be behind a bike!"

[snip]

Like he truly expected me to be like, "OH! There's a *car* behind me! So sorry - let me just get myself off the road for you."

Looks like you totally understand all the thought processes behind that behavior. It's a shame that it is so difficult to change it.

Maybe if you stopped at a light you could talk to the guy, but if I were in your situation, I would have a hard time not switching to "SCREAM-AT-THIS-@SSH*LE" mode.

I was on the Southside on Saturday a week+ ago, the St Pat's day weekend. I was surprised at just the opposite. I could NOT get a car to go through a four-way stop first and I had guys stopping on Carson St when I had a stop sign and they didn't.

The trouble is , I still have to stop because I can't afford to be wrong in those situations (even if I'm right!). It would be more convenient for both of us if a driver goes when I wave him through.

Mick

A couple people have talked about the opportunity for education, and while I know I'm not the person to try, at least in that situation (interacting calmly while stressed: not my strong suit) I'm curious about what anyone would envision saying to them in that vein.

I can't imagine that someone whose blood boils at the notion of having to ride behind a bike, even if the cyclist isn't slowing them down, is going to be moved by someone pointing out that we have a right to be there. Not in the desired direction anyway.

Anyone have ideas, about what you'd say if you were trying to educate here? (Again, not that I think I could pull it off, but I think just seeing an example might be a good start for me.)

I took the opportunity to attempt to educate the fat SUV driver trying to Pittsburgh-left me on Penn & 9th a week and a half ago. Normally, I probably would have just let him go, but he didn't have a turn signal on, and I was entering the intersection by the time he started turning. He threw up his hands in disgust, so as I passed his rolled down window, I calmly reminded him that I had the right of way. In response, he screamed "TREEHUGGER!" in my face. I'd love to be able to say I kept my cool here, but instead screamed "FUCK YOU!" right back. At least I didn't spit on him...?

I have tried a few times to talk calmly to drivers that where behind me getting pissed off. Most are not receptive to it. One lady went completely crazy and told me I was making her late for her doctor appointment after she passed me illegally going down sycamore. The thing was as she passed me she screamed and gave me the finger for no reason. I pulled up to her at the stop sign at the bottom of the hill and told her as calm as I could that there was no reason to put me or her in danger like that. She didn't even try to talk to me, just started going ape shit. I have had 2 or 3 similar incidents also.

What annoys me the most is the people that almost hit you or curse at you for being on a bike in front of them and when you try to say something to them they completely ignore you like you don't even exist.

I was successful on one attempt to educate a man on the rights of bicycles using the sidewalk on the smithfield street bridge last summer after we almost got into a fight. Not sure if it count thought because he was on foot.

I think if we had helmet cams, it would cause us to "do that Ghandi thing" a little better, and if things really do end up in a police report, the evidence will all be there: driver error, driver going ballistic, cyclist in the right, cyclist keeping cool.

Maybe a simple "Smile, you're on Candid Camera" is all we need.

Maybe a helmet cam and a shirt with "smile, you're on candid camera" on the back. Actually, even a fake camera-looking thing pointing to the rear might do the trick if it were advertised on the back of one's shirt (or somewhere thereabouts).

I was just chatting with mdabs about this.. what if you just came up with some ridiculous canned retort to use in these situations.. Someone in a vehicle calls you an asshole, tells you to get on the sidewalk, yells at you in general, just have something prepared to yell back at them that makes no sense...

My suggestion was "Tacolover". They would drive away angry at you for yelling back at them, then wonder.. "did they just call me a tacolover?... man I could go for a taco". They would leave the situation a bit confused, and maybe a bit less angry, and we would have more fun on bikes.

Thants my suggested solution anyway.

just call them a freedom hater, that always works.

netviln, my sides are hurting laughing. I think it's a great idea. Do you think we can get a mexican restaurant to sponsor us?

Reminds me of my dad, who didn't bike, but when he was driving and someone would do something rude, he'd just give them four fingers, with the same gusto some might give one with, and an angry expression. He figured they'd drive away wondering what four fingers could have possibly meant.

Educational moments.

I've found that, when I scream at a driver (which is not often, but still all too often) if the insult I chose is "Drunkard" they will sometimes instantly modify their behavior in good way.

"YO! DRUNKARD! I have the right of way here." "Yo, DRUNKARD! Slow down!"

Someone might stop and be like "WHAT DID YOU CALL ME?" but that hasn't happened.

Spectators are instantly on your side. "DRUNKARD!" is more gratifying, and likely more accurate, than calling them a m*th3r-ph%#er. If I put some umph into it, it gets my aggression out.

I would like to see this become near universal. If someone is driving like a drunk, call them on it.

***

Last week, I was going on Forbes from uptown to oakland and a car passed where someone in the passenger seat yelled some stuff at me. 200 yards later, they were stuck in traffic as I was riding in the closed lane where Forbes goes under the Blvd of the Allies.

I was close enough to quietly tell the guy he was a fool, as I rode past. Traffic precluded them from passing me again.

For me, if I can respond in a spoken tone, I feel I've communicated.

If you can say (not shout) "Dude, no need to honk," it feels more like communication.

Mick

I think you just continue riding. Talking to someone can potentially turn ugly.

Eventually they will get it and realize that cyclist numbers are growing no matter how they act and will either stop driving in the city or put up with it.

Lately when people rev up behind me and then rip by me too close I yell "Drive faster". I hope to get two things from this. One they go faster and get far away from me. And two,hopefully they lose control and crash or a cop sees them and pulls the car over.

I'm with rsprake on this one, just keep riding, being out there within your rights and not yielding to their bullshit IS educating people.

If you're uncomfortable with the standard curse words, I like "FASCIST!", it rolls off the tongue, and at least demonstrates to innocent bystanders some level of cultural intelligence.

I think if someone yelled "treehugger" at me as an insult, I would just give them a smile and a big thumbs-up, I mean, that's an insult?

+1 I think you just continue riding.

I get the same reactions when I drive because speed limits and full stops are terrorist assaults on freedom and liberty, so whatever. Either way, it beats walking most days...

I'm with rsprake on this one, just keep riding, being out there within your rights and not yielding to their bullshit IS educating people.

+1.

Just because the infuriated driver does not repond to calm education inteded words right then does not mean they did not hear you, and with luck, they will actually think about the situation sometime later.

Unfortunately the opportunity to speak with an offensive/ ignorant citizen (driver or litterbug, one of my pet peeves) does not usually happen. I have been known to tap on fenders (infuriating drivers even more), spit on their car, or wave an upraised hand with my ring finger extended. All of those may make me feel better but do little to defuse the situation.

I have had much better sucess speaking with people when I see them litter- and even have had some bend down and pick up the item. I have handed lit butts back to people (once a driver at a red light) saying "You dropped this- there is a fine for littering."

I get the same reactions when I drive because speed limits and full stops are terrorist assaults on freedom and liberty...

I've noticed that, too. If you want to tick people off, especially on suburban roads like Perry Highway, drive exactly the speed limit minus one.

+1 helen s on "You dropped this". I have *so* much wanted to do this.

I've observed the same thing in my car. In fact, I reckon in the past six months, I've gotten more honks while I'm driving the speed limit then I have on my bike.

In case you didn't know the speed limit is 10 mph above the posted number. Didn't you get the memo?

Jeez dudes. Did you think that was the UPPER limit?

"litterbug, one of my pet peeves"

mine too - one time I was walking down the sidewalk and a guy in the passenger seat of a parked car threw a butt out the window, onto the ground. I just picked it up (which caused me to have to squat down, putting my face really close to his) and put it in the receptacle, which was within his reach from the car. I made eye contact the whole time, not with any particular expression, just disturbingly steady. From his facial expression (oh crap, I suck) I think it was worth doing.

another time I had a guy steal my money and throw an empty bag of chips on the sidewalk. The littering actually pissed me off more than the theft.

on limits:

I thought you were supposed to approach them but never actually reach them.

on limits:

I thought you were supposed to approach them but never actually reach them.

Well, depends which way you're approaching the limit, and if the function is continuous and differentiable at that limit.

Sure, if you want to, for example, trace a graph of the function without picking up your pencil, then you want continuity, and if you want it nice and smooth, then you want differentiability. But if you're just talking about the value of the limit itself, you never quite go all the way to the point you're approaching.

But now we're not even pretending to talk about biking. So I'll stop, except to say that one time I was at a math party (yeah, math party. cough. this was back when the governor of CA was mainly known for body building and saying things like "hasta la vista, baby") anyway, one guy, who was kind of drunk, got up and said "Arnold Schwarzenegger teaching analysis: 'No more wasting time - let epsilon equal zero!'" Yeah, big fun at the math parties. I'm going to bed now.

Spped limits:

3 X 10**8 m/sec: Not just a good idea, it's the law.

Only in a vacuum.

*coming full circle*

...which is where the minds of many of these entitled drivers are.

Buzzed by big yellow bus this morning. he stopped at a light 100 ft up the road.

I knocked lightly on the bus door. The bus driver opened.

Conversational tones:

"I don't think there was room to pass me safely there without changing lanes."

"I had you in my mirror the whole time"

"I didn't feel safe."

"I had you covered."

All friendly. I waved, rode away.

I am inordinately proud of this.

Buzzed by a big yellow bus this morning. He stopped at at light 100 yards up the road.

I knocked lightly on the door. Driver opened.

Conversational tones:

"I don't think there was enough room to pass me safely there without changing lanes."

"I was watching. I had you in my mirror the whole time"

"I didn't feel safe."

"I had you covered."

I waved and rode off.

I feel inordinately proud of this.

So he wasn't watching the road?

If someone yells at me or honks a horn, I motion or ask if they can pull off the road and we can talk. At this point no driver has taken me up on this, but I'm always up for a conversation regarding the laws of the road. This also puts the personal aspect back into the situation, as when people are driving they can forget that they are dealing with other people rather than just machines. I imagine if any drivers do take me up on this offer, I'd be slow to talk and allow them to vent about what they think I'm doing wrong. It's much easier to defend your position after they've had a chance to air their laundry than coming right at them with what they're doing wrong.

+1 jakeliefer

I think the big reason many people get upset to the point of being unsafe is because they see cyclists as "other". If it's safe to talk about it, I think there's no problem with calmly saying something. You can at least show them that you are a person just trying to get somewhere like they are. Not everyone will react well to that, but it's no reason not to try.

The biggest thing is to not react in a similar fashion. Even if you REALLY want to.

@jakeliefer In 2000 I had someone lean on the horn when I had to merge into traffic on Morewood due to some parked cars ahead of me (there was no oncoming traffic, I signaled, but he was going a lot faster than I realized). I motioned him over to talk, and he did. He opened the window, grabbed his club with one hand and told me that he could have killed me. All I could muster at the time was "bicyclists share the road too."

@pogil It sounds like he was probably speeding. In that case.. maybe a "then you should probably obey the speed limit so you dont endanger anyone else" would have been appropriate.

@netviln He definitely was speeding. At the time I was actually quite surprised and a bit flustered that he pulled over. That was a first, even though I'd tried it many times before!

I had someone pass me on the right going down 18th street wednesday evening while I was attempting to beat my max of 37 mph (cant even take the lane in this town...). they kept rolling through the stop signs i was stopping at, but i found myself behind them in the turning lane at the carson/birmingham bridge light. they lit up the tires on the buick and rolled on into oakland...

How the hell am I suppose to inform this driver of their hazardous ways, if they keep speeding away???

Here is a funny story for everyone.

Sunday morning about 8 am I am rolling down carson with my girlfriend and a trailer full of camping gear heading towards the works. I am a few yards from the intersection right in front of the double wide grill. The light is red and there is a motorcycle cop at the light traveling the the other direction. Just as I am coming to the light a SUV races up behind me and tried to get in front of me at the light but cant becuase there is a car in the left hand turn lane and I am taking the right lane. The light turns green and the SUV speeds around me into oncoming traffic and was actually closer to the cop then he was to me. I yell "hey watch it" and "drive faster" as he tears up the street getting up to at least 45-50 mph. The cops laughs out loud and rides off. Makes me feel really safe knowing we have such a great emergency personnel here in Pittsburgh.

that sucks, why should drivers respect the law or bicyclists when cops don't.

I had a cop tell me to "get on the sidewalk" which just so happened to be illegal considering my location.

The cops they assign to the southside are the worst in the city, come to think of it, yet another reason that I can't stand the s.s.. ugh.

Well, after catching up on this thread and the other one about the SUV "love tap", I headed off for work this morning. I'm riding down Beeler and I get passed by not one but two cars. After the second passes me, I glanced down at my speedometer which read 32. The speed limit is 25.

So, of course I catch up to them at the light. The first guy makes a right on red but I pull up to the driver's window of the other car and scream "Have you ever heard of a speed limit?" and when I got no response, punctuated it with "a-hole". The other guy doesn't escape for long as I found him sitting at the light at Morewood and have a similar exchange.

So, I guess I wasn't a very good ambassador for cycling today (although a lot of peds at Beeler & Forbes got a good laugh out of it) but WTF. There was a UPS truck blocking the other lane a bit further down and given the choice between hitting the truck vs splattering a cyclist I'm sure of which one a driver would choose. Then they'd call it an "accident" and fine him $500.

I guess I should have calmed down and gotten plate numbers, for whatever good that would have done.

I was in a downhill lane this morning that has a 15mph speed limit all day, and then a school zone at the end of it. I know I was at least traveling the speed limit. Someone raced around me at what must have been 30mph.

Spring is in the air.

I was in a downhill lane this morning that has a 15mph speed limit all day, and then a school zone at the end of it. I know I was at least traveling the speed limit. Someone raced around me at what must have been 30mph.

I will say it again: the single biggest thing that could be done to make our streets safer for ALL USERS would be enforce posted speed limits.

It is my understanding that only state police can use speed detection devices such as radar and laser, and that local agencies are stuck with vascar (easy to beat in court and highly subjective) or just tailing, etc.

If that is the case, that would be the major reason speeding is not enforced in the city, and to me makes no sense. Perhaps we should contact some state legislators to get this changed.

I believe you are correct.

The streets would also be significantly safer if laws around stop signs and traffic signals were enforced.

I don't know the law well, but I've always been under the impression that a cop could issue a citation with the catch-all "unsafe operation", without an actual speed measurement. That is, if they wanted to.

You mean like this:

§ 23.12. Motor vehicles.

Operation of a motor vehicle in a manner that is reckless or negligent or that creates a nuisance or excessive noise is prohibited.

salty mentioned "stay calm, get plate numbers" as a tactic. all this venting could really give rise to something very practical if someone could tell me what the next steps are after getting the motorist's plate number.

I've been involved in situations where a motorist will either cut me off or yell something at me while passing me with about a foot of space. I don't bike aggressively, and I am usually completely silent when I'm on the road -- I assume drivers couldn't hear me which is usually the case since they have their windows up or music on. So in a case where there's no damage (luckily) -- does anyone bother to follow up on it?

I do when it's a bus, but usually by the time I get somewhere I can make a report I have worked off all the stress it caused by riding my bike.

The Parking Authority announced that they are going to crack down in order to meet their budget. In 30 minutes in Oakland last year (5th and Robinson) I sat and counted 38 stop sign violations (some with multiple violations at once, actually: failure to stop + driving in a bus lane + unsafe u-turn). If the city could just put someone there with a video camera, and send out tickets in the mail, they could come up with a lot of revenue in a very short time.

They would make a fortune just off of stop sign and failing to yield infractions.

State radar law explained The statute in question is Title 75 §3368(c)(2).

Unfortunately, the AOL site ref'd in the link has been shut down.

@rsprake: I didn't actually witness any failure to yield. None of the maneuvers were incredibly dangerous, just pushy (and illegal). And a little more dangerous than failing to feed the parking meter.

This just in:

Speeding 'cushion' may dwindle due to recession

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-30-speeding-cushion_N.htm?



The recession may be claiming a new victim: the 5-10-mph "cushion" police and state troopers across the USA have routinely given motorists exceeding the speed limit.

As cities and states scramble to fill budget gaps with revenue from traffic citations, "not only are the (speeding) tolerances much lower, but the frequency of a warning instead of a ticket is way down," says James Baxter, president of the National Motorists Association, a Wisconsin-based drivers' rights group that helps its members fight speeding tickets.

[more at site]

I'm guessing this story is at least partly a publicity stunt by NMA. They seem to be more speeders advocates than anything else.

I think the "cushion" is written into law, at least in some states. That was in response to the federal mandate for 55 mph on highways. "you can make us post signs, but you can't make us enforce them!" It's hard to prove cause and effect, but I don't recall seeing as much speeding on residential streets before the 55mph law and concomitant non-enforcement went into effect.

Lyle, they can come to the intersection outside my office (28th & Liberty) then. I can be standing in the middle of Liberty Ave and cars don't stop.

We even had a news story run about how dangerous the intersection is and how many accidents have occurred there. The 311 complaint I filed was closed when they re-installed the street light that was knocked over that a previous accident knocked over.

The "cushion" is indeed written into law (75 PA C.S. § 3368). It's either 6 or 10 mph depending on how the speed was measured and what the limit is; for city cops (no radar) on city streets (<55mph), it's probably 10 mph.

I'd be in favor of eliminating the speed limit on limited access highways in exchange for 'zero tolerance' (and actual enforcement) on surface streets.

There's a bill in Harrisburg about this, but I don't know its true status, e.g., whether or not a committee chair is sitting on it, etc.

Note: Link is to a Word doc.

I have seen many more cyclists blow stop signs and even red lights without even looking for cross traffic than I have seen cars doing things like that. If anyone seems "entitled" it is the bikers in Shadyside... YOUCH! Talk about an "I'm allowed to be here and I don't care" attitude...

It pisses me off more when I see a bike blow a light or stop sign, because they are giving me and everyone else who does stop a bad rep. I don't know that I could agree with "more bikes than cars" running these traffic control devices.

Standing at my bus stop this morning (on Greenfield Ave), I saw about 30-40 cars run the stop sign, some without even braking. I saw one bike during that period, who slowed down, looked, and rolled through. For comparison sake, I saw maybe 2-3 cars actually come to a full, complete stop, and that was because another car was in the intersection.

Yea, you see bikes not stopping, but I can you really say you see MORE bikes (compared to cars) doing that? With the sheer number of cars on the road?

If anyone seems "entitled" it is the bikers in Shadyside

ummm, every person in shadyside seems to behave that way from what I've seen

Oh, I am sure, without hesitation, that more cars coast stop signs that there are even bikes on the rosd, period. but as far as just maintaining speed and not slowing... I gotta go bikes on that one. Save for the "right turn on red" thing, I can not recall the last time I actually saw, in person, a car blow a red light. It happens, yes, but I see bikers go through them a lot.

Maybe there is something in the air around Winchester Thurstn school that mikes bikers crazy, lol. I am HONESTLY surprised there are not car/bike accidents in the surrounding area every day.

Even walking to lunch on Center (I work near Shadyside hospital) I see bikes flying around without a care in the world. It's tight and dangerous for cars around there and yet some people just don't seem to care.

Cyclists who really don't care end up dead. Drivers who really don't care might get a dent in their car. Not trying to excuse the behaviour but I would argue that by nature cyclists have to be safer regardless of appearance.

Do you ride a bike?

Oh, I am sure, without hesitation, that more cars coast stop signs that there are even bikes on the rosd, period. but as far as just maintaining speed and not slowing... I gotta go bikes on that one.

Do you ride a bike in the city? Just curious.

The difference in field of view between cars and bikes is huge, add to that slower speeds. So a person riding a bike can see more and can anticipate better because they are traveling at a slower speed for a longer period of time.

Someone in a car who accelerates to 20-25 mph then slows down to 10 and coasts a stop can not see what's coming because they haven't given themselves enough time to see it.

@jim you could start a "stock complaint on entitled cyclist" thread.

This video explains it well.

I do not ride Downtown... I actually do not even drive Downtown, I avoid Downtown. I am a Brentwood, Carrick, Southside, Oakland, Shadyside type of traveler. (plus non-city riding)

salty - maybe that is why bad riders annoy me so much. I am extra careful and jumpy on the bkie as there is nothing between my skin/bone and the metal/road except for some clothes (for the most part).

Maybe I am a little odd though too. When I walk I try to be carefull too. If I come to an intersection where a car is waiting to turn off a side road, i actually that the 5 extra steps and walk BEHIND the car as opposed to infront of it. Ounce of prevention kind of thing I suppose. Yes, I have the "right of way' espectially if there is a crosswalk (which the car has usually pulled into) but that doesn't mean ANYTHING if they hit me. I would still have a broken leg, concussion or whatever; and the knowledge that on paper I had the right of way wouldn't be much help.

When cars "slow down" for stop signs, they slow to the same speed that bikes "maintain" while going through the sign.

dmtroyer - I hate entitled people period, lol. It doesn't matter what they feel entitled about. Whetehr I am walking, biking or driving... I tend to get annoyed at peds, bikers and drivers, lol.

I'd have to agree with Jim on this.

Blowing/coasting/rolling through a stop sign is not following the rules here in PA. And we cant use the Idaho stop to justify the practice, because we're not in Idaho. Perhaps the supporting data for the Idaho stop can be used in an attempt to repeal or amend the laws in PA, but it cant be used to justify breaking our current laws.

It's an act of civil disobedience that makes it difficult for us mannerly types share the road with you'inz.

When cars "slow down" for stop signs, they slow to the same speed that bikes "maintain" while going through the sign.

Exactly, so to the innocent bystander it looks like bikes are blowing the stop sign and the car was slowing down safely.

No, I was always "Jim". I haven't been to the board in a while. I do not ride when it is cold so out of sight out of mind kind of thing. I just rode for the first time this year this week so it got into my blood again.

I feel it's all relative to the specific situation.

We need teleportation... then there wouldn't be any issues, lol.

Penn Avenue at Sixth Street westbound about 8:15 Thursday morning, I'm taking the curb lane while a car next to me is about to turn left onto Sixth. We're patiently waiting for the light to change when some cyclist blows past us both, to the left of the car, going at least a jogging pace. I don't recall if Sixth had a green or whether it was on the four-way-ped-xing part of the cycle, but all I could think was, "You dumb s**t, you're setting a bad example, not to mention trying to get creamed."

I'm for adopting Idaho rules, too, but cyclists doing stupid things like that make it hard for the cycling community to get any cred.

Here is my take. Yeah, that guy blew the light but you didn't. Everyone around you saw the same thing and saw you waiting patiently. That didn't go unnoticed.

Also, the Idaho laws don't cover what that guy did. He's just riding like a dick.