BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I believe that salmon riding and walking was taught to youngsters in suburbia prevelantly at one time- I want to say the 70s. I think it still holds over.

When I was in school (Linden Elementary, ~1980s), a nice police officer came to school to talk to us. What I remember of that talk was "there's no good place to ride, since you can't ride on the sidewalk and there are cars everywhere else, wear a helmet and signal with your hands like *this*"

Has that activity been budget cutted out, or is that purely a city thing and suburbanites just don't do that? I only ever went to school in the city, so I have no idea what my current district is like as a student.

I think it's still pretty common to have an officer or someone from County traffic safety do that type of presentation. I do think though that for a while there even those authorities may have been teaching salmoning.

I saw that happen and even screamed a "GO GIRL!" from my balcony.

Lots of Salmon here, we are just that kind of anti-disestablishment-ism

I don't recall either of my kids getting a cycling safety class in North Allegheny. Assuming it was 6th grade (when I got it, in NY, a generation ago), that would have been 2002 and 2006. Maybe it happened and they didn't tell me about it. But outside of North Park, you just do not see children riding bikes on the road anywhere in the North Allegheny area (McCandless, Franklin Park, Marshall, Bradford Woods).

I remember being taught about walking on the left but riding a bike on the right. (This was in suburban Denver in 1971 or so). We always rode on the right. Sadly there was really no place to ride except to school and to friend's houses in southeast Denver is those days. It was just one giant, often sidewalk free, bedroom community back then--an experience that made me an urbanist I think.

dbacklover - I thought I heard a scream, and I thought it was positive, and suspected it was you (I think I was practically in your front lawn there), but couldn't hear what it was so I didn't turn or wave

I think I'll ask PHPD if they do any kind of community outreach in the schools. You know every PD in the area does "Don't Do Drugs" programs like hundreds of times a year, would it be that bad every spring to do a "Bike Safe This Summer" program?

Thats me, big stone house, pine trees in front. just so you know there is a pump and patch kit in the little room on the porch if you ever have need.

dude, I have had the worst porch envy of your porch ever since I drove by it for the first time four years ago. I too have a big-ish stone house (in Rosedale), but no front or back porch. I'll never make that mistake again

Neighbors are awesome, thank you for being such an awesome neighbor

I was really excited to see the post gazette

published a letter to the editor recommending that

we ride this way in response to the cyclist's

death on harts run. GO PG!

Yeah, steevo, I saw that. I chalked it up to "hey, an inflamatory and incorrect letter that might get people riled up enough to pass it along and we'd get hits and attention! let's post!" I also chalked it up to someone with more luck and stubbornness than road hours logged who perhaps was around for the FIRST cycling craze in the '20s. Not to hate on elders, just hating on people set in ways that kill.

The kids - they're stupid kids. I am STILL a stupid kid for much of my life (yeah, when was I supposed to grow out of that feeling? still waiting). That's why I'm thinking maybe a heads up to the PD that there's an epidemic of Future Road Kill sweeping our youth, and they may save a life or limb with a one hour General Assembly once a year.

The adults - they havent touched a bike on a road since they were stupid kids. About 20 feet (or 5 cars passing) on a real road (not plan) in suburbia as an adult (who has outgrown their Invincibleness) salmon would be enough to cure them of this habit. I'm more interested in saving their kids than in persuading them, they should know better (or be able to figure it out).

It sounds like this is not a particularly Penn Hills phenomenon, but may be worse in suburbia than urbia due to actual usage opportunities. Hmm.

as around for the FIRST cycling craze in the '20s

Or the one in the 1890s!

When I was in 6th grade, in 1965, I read an old book from the library on bicycle touring that said to ride on the left. The book was from the 30's or 40's , I think and recommended the left.

I recall being struck that it was the opposite from the right side riding that was considered proper in the 60's,. It's been a very long time since rding on the left is standard.

I think the writer to the Post Gazette was confusing the rules for pedestrians with those for bikes. "Bikes should stay on the sidewalk!"

Thread shift:

I rode from Oakland out Saltzburg Rd to Twin Oaks Rd/Alcoma Strip Mall today. I guess I passed Dbacklover's place and maybe ejwme's, too. It's nice to know riders are out there.

It was long and hard getting out there and back, but the traffic was not as killer as I thought it might be.

The Salmon are running!

More funnies...

Best (serious) for last...

if you went down saltsburg to get to alcoma then you went past my house. (fantastic bakery just down the street)stockleins just past stotiler doughnuts to die for.

Letter? Is it on the website? (I looked, didn't see anything likely)

"Down" Saltzburg? My recollection is that it was uphill both going and coming back. ; )

I went through Shadyside, took Bob's fabled Northwest Passage for the first (then later second) time, wiggled over to Lincoln -> Verona Rd -> Saltzburg -> Twin Oaks Rd. I came back the same way.

I didn't think Bob's map wsa all that great but the N-W passage was totally cool. Who knew?

There was a friendly guy on a 'bent who read about it in the paper taking it as I went out and a woman who looked disgusted that another bike was using it on the way back. I guess that trail is getting a lot of use now.

Riding it everyday, I can confirm that Saltzbug is indeed uphill both ways. For me, it's worse headed out of town than in, but I turn on Hershey to cut out that annoying stop sign near the cigarette store.

My favorite part of Saltzburg is when I'm at the double set of lights at Frankstown and *mumble*, headed "inbound", and I take the lane and the person behind me is aggrivated until they realize that I'm keeping up with the car in front of me, and thus not delaying them at all, straight the way through both lights and beyond. I can get up to a good enough clip that I haven't been passed till the hill flattens out yet. My little "HA! _I'm_ not the problem here!"

Gonna have to check out this northwest passage you speak of. can you send me a link?

@ dbacklover Gonna have to check out this northwest passage you speak of. can you send me a link?

No, as it turns out, I can't send you a link. The passage doesn't show up on maps. (Don't know about mirrors)

Here's a google bike directions from the start to the end, though.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

There is a shorter way than their directions, with little, if any, traffic. You can see faint outlines of the passage. Start SW from "A", then 4 right angles NW and SW to "B".

Easy to find from the end of Howe St.

It's only magical to me because I lived half a mile from it for 12 years and didn't know of it. Indeed, I looked for a way through that area and didn't find it.

I see it, that would be a good shortcut

ok, so i just read this thread, and I lived in suburbia when I was a kid and we were TAUGHT to be salmon. It was safer to be a salmon in my suburbia if you were a pedestrian. but when I bike i dont consider myslef a pedestrian

On foot and unicycle, I salmon. On bike, I ride with traffic. I figure the difference has to do with travel speed. On the unk, I'm moving maybe a jogging pace. The wheel is irrelevant.

But then again, not always. If it seems safer for me to unicycle with traffic, I'll do that. Bicycle, though, I never salmon.

On foot I salmon - unless there's no sidewalk or shoulder, the road is narrow, cars go ~45, it's a curve, and the hillside banks such that there's nowhere for me to bail if Mr. McTexty doesn't see me. In other words half of Penn Hills.

on foot you are supposed to salmon. on a pedalcycle you are operating a vehicle ad therefore are not supposed to salmon.

Oh right, how could I forget? There's this cute little corner, barely 250 feet from my house. Try walking on the proper side here on a sunny day, let alone at night, in the rain, etc. Cars drive on the dirt here. It is absolutely impossible to walk here safely.

I deal with this one every day.

Safety always trumps the law. I'll tell that to a cop. I'll tell that to a judge.

dude, this is why i hate the suburbs. they are designed to get you to stay in your house/yard unless you are in your car.

i was just stating what the rules are. no more, no less.

Mick,

Your link is just taking me to googlemaps, with a view of the U.S., no passage.

the second/third generation of suburbs in Pittsburgh were all designed and built when fuel was cheap and mass transit was half dead (50s-60s, late 70s-80s). They were designed for car access exclusively. Now that the mills have closed and the young people are staging an exodus from these areas, there's not enough money to put in a sidewalk, let alone fix the basic infrastructure issues that went along with cheap labor and cheap gasoline led "planning". In reality, cburch is right, they didn't plan for anybody to ever leave the house - they just didn't think that far ahead. They designed houses with yards, not neighborhoods. How to go get food to put in the kitchen was the owner's responsibility, not the architect's.

But teaching kids to salmon is a sure fire way to get them off their bicycles and into a car (either voluntarily or via accident). Seems to me there's a great opportunity there to repair gross misconceptions and get more people on bikes.

@bikefind Your link is just taking me to googlemaps, with a view of the U.S., no passage.

Hmmm. Foiled by bad links. Again }

Get bike directions from 6500 Penn Ave to 6500 Howe St and it will generate.

Ooooooh, I get it. that's the Reizenstein short cut. That's new?

What's so bad about riding on Penn and Fifth? especially going from Penn to Fifth. Fifth to Penn I could see being sticky at rush hour, but the rest of the time, the new light timing is pretty decent.

@ejwme. It's a minor shortcut. Probably been there a long time. The thrill for me was finding that it was there. It's nice for getting to the end of ELB.

Oh - I do tend to think exclusively East-West, and hadn't thought that far north. Ok, I get it. I went to school there, and kids were forever trying to skip out using something similar (or just hopping that super high fence).

I still remember the day I discovered Friendship Ave, I seriously felt like lewis or clark or whatever. I get that

I applied for a job at Reizenstein once. I was almost late for the interview and didn't know of "the passage," so I climbed over that super high fence in my interview suit.

The intersection of 5th and Penn has historically been the site of many bad car accidents. I'm hoping that the new layout will help but I'm still waiting to see.

Mick - that's awesome, I hope you got the job if you wanted it. That's determination!

Lyle - about 17 years ago or so there used to be an island near the southwest corner of that intersection, I don't remember if it's been replaced, but trucks kept hitting it and carving out pieces until one day a huge truck just ploughed straight through it and ended up in the park. It was a mess, but afterward I remember everybody saying it was so much better. I do like the new turn lanes.

I just never understood why people in cars had any trouble with it. It's a regular four way intersection, both roads are two-way streets, green=go, red=stop. Good sight lines, clear lane markings. WTF?

there's a little hill on 5th coming south, just enough to obscure visibility of the intersection, people drive too fast, and they run red lights. Lots of left-turning traffic and no protected left turn phase (I mean, didn't used to be any). I never make the left from 5th to Penn inbound, in a car or on a bike - I go past it and use Hamilton instead. And I know two people who were hit by red-light runners while turning left from Penn to 5th inbound.

The Penn and Fifth redesign should help ease some congestion and therefore will hopefully make it safer since people won't try to beat the yellow. I doubt this will be the case however. People frequently try to beat the yellow at Fifth and Beechwood, I have almost been nailed, or have seen people almost get nailed there. I look both ways twice now.

There appear to be cameras on the new lights on Penn Ave. My thoughts on what they might be for are:

1. emergency vehicle priority

2. red light enforcement

3. an alternative to inductive loop detection of automobiles.

Anybody want to take guesses?

Reality TV show?

Automatic-hold-green for public transit vehicles? (I can dream, can't I?)

What would really help is to have the (asphalt) path along Penn be completed to 5th and suitable (ped/bike) controls be in place at the intersection.

But I have to admit that I avoid this intersection. I need E/W routes, and there are manageable parallel alternatives along Beechwood and Hamilton/Frankstown/etc. Go with the flow.