BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

You are 100% right and he is 100% wrong and 200% of a prick for doing that in the first place, and continuing to assert his stupid and dangerous belief when confronted.

In similar circumstances I've offered to call the cops and have them come and explain the law to the driver... Of course it's a bluff since the cops probably don't know the laws either, but that usually shuts people up.

But, it is complete bullshit that he will keep doing this again and again because he feels like it's his right... and if/when he hits someone he won't get penalized for it anyways.

FYI -

§ 3301. Driving on right side of roadway.

(c) Pedalcycles.--

(1) Upon all roadways, any pedalcycle operating in accordance with Chapter 35, proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into an alley, private road or driveway.

(emphasis mine)

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter33.pdf

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter35.pdf

"exactly what do you do or say to someone who does something dangerous and doesn't even know the correct laws?"

throw a paintball at their car to mark them as an unsafe driver for other cyclists (you do keep a bag of paintballs on your handlebars, don't you)?

In all seriousness, I don't think there is anything you can do, unfortunately. Even if you can quote the applicable statute(s) verbatim, you're unlikely to change the person's mind. All you can really do is tell them calmly what the law says and move on.

I was taking Ellsworth home from Oakland today, and I took the lane as I was passing some parked cars (I was still west of Aiken, by the whatever school that is). Some jagoff in a Town Car (I think) started honking at me. I first gave him the "you're annoying me" over-the-shoulder look, and when he honked again, I turned further to make eye contact and saw him waving at me to move over. I decided just to flip him off after he honked a third time. Then he passed me and I yelled "I'm trying not to get doored, asshole." I doubt he heard me (and I know I didn't help the situation), but at least it helped me vent my frustration.

Bottom line: some people are just jerks

he actually was calm about it. i only started to swear at the end of the argument when i became pissed about his stupidity. this reminds me that i need to get a camera mount for my vented helmet..

and you are right about the cops.

i take the lane between aiken and negley outbound. there are cars parked next to side streets and their intersections with ellsworth, so motorists can't see you if you're hugging the curb. there are usually cars parked there. I can also ride 25mph on that block, so motorists can just wait calmly behind the cyclist who is not exceeding the speed limit. i also take the lane on highland past mad mex, casbah, and all of those other establishments. it is hard for people to see you unless you are in the middle of the lane.

thanks for the citations of the law, salty. i knew i wasn't stupid or nuts. i always like to see it in writing.

Careful with the camera. It opens up all sorts of opportunities for some cycling advocates to point out what you should have been doing differently in your situation, even though you were ultimately in the right. Textual descriptions of incidents seem to be most credible.

BTW, the 4-foot amendment also introduced a "hook" component that's arguably applicable here:

§ 3331. Required position and method of turning.

(e) Interference with pedalcycles.--No turn by a driver of a motor vehicle shall interfere with a pedalcycle proceeding straight while operating in accordance with Chapter 35 (relating to special vehicles and pedestrians).

I just re-read all that. You guys were swearing at motorists? Why not engage them in some sort of calm & positive dialogue? Missed teaching opportunity. Sigh.

Now that you know where he lives, feel free to drop a PennDOT cycling booklet with applicable laws that he broke highlighted in orange sharpie.

...proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing...

You WERE going AT the normal speed of traffic then existing. You were stopped. Right there, where and when the whole thing started, you were in the right.

up until about two weeks ago, i rode that intersection in that same way every day around 6-6:30.

i only ever had that happen once.

i point this out because a) i posted about it on here! and ii) this story reminds me that we, on the whole, never have to deal with jagoffs like this. srsly, the odds are pretty damned minimal, considered car by car!

and maybe i'm old or non-confrontational or cynical or whatever, but i can't see a single good thing coming out of any interaction between me and a motorist. the smart thing is always for me to move on and let the rest of the ride cool my blood. not that it always works out that way, but that's the idea, anyway...

Yeah I usually just give the WTF look at people, but I saw that his window was down and was just going to tell him that he didn't give me 4 feet. I only called him a f#ucking moron wen the conversation was over. Maybe he WILL look it up and find tit he was wrong. I am also not sure that he lives there..I think it was an apt complex and he may have jus been picking someone up.

Similar thing happened to me a few months ago where the bike lane on East Lib Blvd ends at Frankstown/Broad St and becomes a right turn lane. Long story short, I signaled and moved over to take the lane and go straight when it was safe and a tow truck going way to fast comes out of nowhere and almost rear ends me.

Driver is one of those Mr. Beefy Shaved Head types and he immediately unleashes a string of obscenities at me at the top of his lungs (while there are kids waiting for the school bus at the corner too). Somehow I managed to stay calm and argue my case reasonably which I think pissed him off even more.

Like Jay Sherman said...some people are jerks.

You're 100% right, the guy was a firking moron.

Aside from the law, that was just a dick and potentially lethal move. Like demonstrating that you should keep the safety on your gun on by shooting someone. Dick.

@stefb: Although you could not have known it when your conversation started, this driver was clearly "never gonna get it" guy. As in, if you have to explain it, he aint never gonna get it.

On the spectrum, I fall somewhere closer to Helen. Although I do tend to be a relatively confrontational person, I recognize as I get older, some confrontations/conversations/explanations are just losers, and won't accomplish anything.

(Slightly OT)

@quizbot: I'm familiar with the posts you're referencing here. And I'm surprised that is the attitude you came away with from those threads.

Unless I completely misread those threads (which is entirely possible), I thought there was a lot of positive reaction from a lot of viewpoints. And of course some viewpoints will not be what you would have liked to hear, but it is a public board, and there are a lot of opinionated people here.

I thought your videos were really helpful for illustrating exactly how certain interactions with cars actually happen, and the ensuing discussions about how to react, or what might have been done differently were really valuable.

@ALMKLM: My takeaway from threads such as this is generally positive & educational. I was just being facetious.

For some reason I often get interactions like this when turning left at red lights. Similar things happened to me turning left onto Beechwood at the light on Forbes, so I have started entering the bike lane at the gap at the end of the traffic island and avoiding the light entirely. I think there is something frustrating about waiting at a light, then having to further wait behind a bicycle. But it becomes really absurd when all the driver was waiting to do was to pull into a driveway a block or two later.

stefb brings up a point where I have some confusion. I understand that a cyclist does not need to be to the right when turning left, but does that also apply when there is an entire lane dedicated to turning left and you're in that lane?

You can not share a single lane with a car or truck safely, therefore you don't have to ride to the right in that situation.

stefb, if I'm understanding you correctly from the description you gave, the guy pulled into a driveway on Morewood between Forbes and Fifth, I'm assuming on the right side of the road... It's like a type of apartment complex, but it holds clans of territorial neanderthals, as opposed to average tenants with leases.

I spent a LONG time (15+ yrs) around people who lived right there (the specific people rotated, but the type remains the same, they actually work hard to keep it that way). Those people are NEVER WRONG. Ever. When confronted with irrefutable proof that reality is other than they claim, the mental gymnastics that ensue are truly wondrous to behold, often hypnotic.

Like any population, they're not all like the guy you describe, just like as cyclists, we're not all generally law abiding people with families and places to go. But in general, the population of that block in specific, will never get it if they don't already.

"You can not share a single lane with a car or truck safely"

seems like a simple concept. Too bad it's far too complex for some motorists to understand...

@ALMKLM "@quizbot: [...] I'm surprised that is the attitude you came away with from those threads. [...]

I'm not. He's brought this up multiple times in threads that mention cameras or negative car/bicycle interactions.

@quizbot

"I was just being facetious." And what is that doing for you besides getting a quick "Ahah! That was witty of me!"

I'd love to support your disputes with motorists and your frustrating commute, but I'm taking a different tact and I don't agree with how you communicate or even that the people you're frustrated with are necessarily in the wrong.

You seem continuously doubtful that you or others can respond calmly in stressful situations. It's a learned skill that requires practice. Every time you get frustrated in traffic, you have an opportunity to practice and try to explain calmly, even to yourself, why that action is upsetting to you.

Back OT,

@StepfB and others, I don't necessarily think arguing the law with people is the best route to take because nobody follows traffic laws in the first place.

How about "Hey, when you passed me back there I felt concerned for my safety and was worried you might hit me. Would you be willing to pass with more space in the future?" Granted, this isn't something you can yell into a window, but I don't have much faith in those conversations anyways.

He turned left into the driveway, and yes, it kills me every time that people stop to argue after they seemed to be in such a hurry.

Yeah, people are kinda hopeless sometimes.

@pierce: "you have an opportunity to practice and try to explain calmly, even to yourself, why that action is upsetting to you"

I'm not the Buddah. When people try to kill me, it makes me cranky.

stefb - bummer that happened. I would have responded the same way you did. I am lucky enough to ride rail trails 80% of the way to work, and I am just learning "the rules of the road".

I do enjoy being part of the outlaw bike perception. Us crazy people riding these nutty 2 wheel vehicles. Oh well, call us rebels....

ah, left into the driveway there is just regular old dorms, slight nevermind then. Mostly undergrads. Better odds at a decent conversation, maybe you just got really unlucky. Glad you came through ok, and kudos for trying.