BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I have a Toyota Matrix and my wife has a Nissan Versa.

One car for our 4 person family: a VW Eurovan Weekender. It could technically be called a gas guzzler, but I justify it since we take road trips and outside of those trips, we probably put 5,000 miles a year on it.

We went form a two car household to a one car household this summer.. We had a civic and an elantra and dropped the civic because we owed less on it.

I have been thinking of selling my car but the cost of ownership is not so much that it would be worth it. Both cars are paid off, we have a two car garage at our new house and I never drive it. It's nice to have around every once in awhile.

I was expecting hatchbacks and compacts.

I have a BMW 325is, with a wonderful (epa-estimated) 17mpg in the city... I get about 21-22mpg with my driving habits.

I have been thinking about getting something that is a little more fuel friendly.

'94 Toyota 4Runner

...yeah, I guess I win the "gas guzzler" award but I make up for it by letting it sit for weeks at a time. Unless I'm making the 4 hour drive back home to visit my parents I go MONTHS without filling up, so at least there's that. I just don't see the point in dropping the money on something newer (and more efficient) if it's just going to sit anyway.

Nissan Frontier (6 cylinder) that gets approx. 27 mpg on average. I need the small pick up because I have to have the ability to haul big things on occasion. In nice weather, when I am not on a bike or a bus, and not hauling things, I use a Yamaha Vino 125 scooter, which gets about 90 mpg.

scooter!

I ride a Aprilia SR50R Factory that gets 115mpg to make up for my BMW's 17mpg.

I have been thinking about a Tacoma of a Frontier. (Mainly because my Aprilia breaks a lot).

jeep wrangler with 4 liter engine. 12 mpg in 4wd and offroad, 25 mpg in 2wd on the highway. I use it once maybe twice a week, when I'm working in town. It meets my needs for work and play.

I don't want to drive any other vehicle; I don't think I would trade for a newer model, unless it comes with the diesel engine that's offered in Europe - better torque and greater reliability than the V6 gas engine currently offered in the states.

VW Passat sedan for my wife, Subaru Impreza wagon for me.

I'm happy to report that I've currently got 1300 more miles on the bike(s) than on the Soob this year thus far.

A Honda Element, love it, all-wheel drive, can haul 4 bikes and 3 friends to the trails, have hauled among other things a Yamaha motor scooter in the back, can camp in it if you want to, and gets 24 mpg.

And my dream car, 1973 Austin Mini 1000, 30+ mpg. In summer, the 5 gal tank lasts me about 3 months.

I gave up my car 2 years ago when it broke. Went for a while with nothing, but now I live with my girlfriend who has a Camry. It's pretty nice for taking long trips outside the city. Other than that, it's the train.

One car family of 4 for years, but recently inherited a Maxima. The minivan is falling apart, and we still owe more money than I could sell it for, so it is cheaper to pay the payment and keep it minimally insured that take a hit selling it. I hate the thing, but with all the seats out I've used it on a regular basis to haul stuff. Loan it out a bunch to other people too.

The Maixma gets high 20's the mininvan mid 20's.

Bought a Kawasaki KLR 650 this summer. 55-60 mph. Hell of a lot more fun than the mini-van, and has been used more than I would like to admit for commuting. Wife is in school during the week, so I need to leave work early 3 days a week. The motorbike cuts the commute down to 10-15 minutes rather than 45 by bike.

i inherited my wife's nissan sentra this summer when she bought herself a new honda fit. the fit is what we use to drive around when we need to and the nissan is the mountain bike car. it makes getting my big bouncy bike out to the resorts a LOT easier...

the nissan gets high 20s/low 30s and the honda gets mid to high 30s

I guess I get the gas guzzler award.... I own 2 trucks one is a 150 Ford 4x4 xlt w/a 5.4 triton and the other is a Ford Ranger w/a 4.0. They both get about the same gas milage. About 18 miles per gal. I know 2 trucks - I run and train retrievers for hunt test, youth days for kids and upland and water work. I need to be able to haul my boys and carry equipment.

My Matrix gets average 24mpg in the city, 28-32 on the highway and the Versa gets around 25 in the city and 30+ on the highway. We have gotten as high as 36 on the highway I think.

07 prius. lowest ive got was 45 mpg for a tank (winter) highest is 61mpg (summer, lots of coasting).

The worst part about my BMW isn't the 17mpg, but the fact that it is a compact coupe with a back seat pass through that is too small to pass most things through.

1999 Mercury Sable station wagon. On a good day it gets ~23mpg, but in cold weather it's more like 18.

I ride a lot of buses, and use the bike a lot, for trips into the city. The car is mainly used in chasing around suburbia. We are a four-person household, with one in college Downtown and a 16yo driver in training.

15 years ago, living in New Stanton, I owned four cars with three drivers in the house. You know that you are spending too much on transportation resources when the garage that services your car(s) employs 12 people, and you know each one's voice on the phone instantly.

There was a point where I owned so many cars I had to have more than one insurance policy.

@bjanaszek do you also have a neighbor with a Eurovan? If so I think I bike by your house every morning checking out your van and bike stuff on the porch!

Family of 4 living outside the city makes it hard to avoid driving out POS Rendezvous or VW beetle, but Im trying to edge more into car lite and now that I know the kids can do the 2 mile or so walk between our house and my parents in about a half hour, we may be doing that a lot more.

Not a close neighbor, but there are a couple in Highland Park. We're at the far end of Jancey in Morningside, near the school.

'97 Buick Century...I don't know the exact gas mileage, but I can get from Pgh to Columbus on less than a 1/2 tank of gas, depending on how much crap is in my trunk on the way back. Roundtrip to Connellsville uses up 1/4 tank.

I'm going to wager 18mpg average, btwn city and highway. The car loves cruising, so it does much better on the highway, mpg-wise.

I used to drive the car a lot more when I was working in Columbus b/c COTA's (bus system) schedules weren't very good for getting me to work, plus my employer paid for my parking (parking's cheap in C-bus). Here, I average 1.5 trips a week...I usually only drive it once a week to run errands, but have had to drive it once during the week b/c I have late classes.

Other than my car, I use my bike to get to the Farmer's Mkt on Mondays and I use the bus to get to school. Haven't ever used the bike racks on the bus.

Honda CR-V in our one car family with bike racks on top. If I'm not biking, I mostly ride the bus for commuting etc. But for weekend errands etc. we use the car.

I bought a car a few decades ago and dropped it when it dropped its transmission 18 months later.

I inherited a car from an aunt in the 1990's, left it sitting for 2 years, then chased out the wasps that had adopted it and got it running. I never used it much and scrapped it when it stopped passing inspections.

I rent when I need a car. That's cheaper than owning for me.

About once or twice a year an opportunity comes up that I miss from not having a car ("Hey Mickey! Wanna take me to the lake and go skinny dipping?")

I had FlexCar for a while, but it was expenseive enough that it make sense to just rent a car for a day, rather than go shopping with a Flex Car. I understand Zip Car is more expensive.

I hate that Zip cars have a big logo on the car, particularly the passenger side. With a normal rental car, I can take someone on a first date without them having to know I'm a weirdo without a car.

I probably should sign up for Zip car, anyhow, though. The phone might ring in the middle of the night sometime.

As far as I can recall, I have not been in a car since mid-August.

Mick

I have a Mazda Protege. It gets about 33mpg on the highway. I love that Pittsburgh is easy enough to get around in between my bike and a bus pass, but I drive to Toronto 4-7 times a year and Philadelphia once or twice.

99 VW Jetta TDI. 43/50 summer. 40/46ish winter. As others have said, I use it so little and it is paid for otherwise I would seriously consider trying to go carless with our 2 person family.

Numbers just don't work out to get rid of it. We use it 90% for road trips to places not very accessible by pubic transit. All for a total of around 8,000 miles a year. That's less than one oil change a year.

when i had a car, it was a 2003 hyundai tiburon. probably somewhere around 26 mpg. i put about 6k a year on it, and the vast majority of that came from trips to and from buffalo, to visit my family.

it got stolen in like april. i haven't had or really needed a car since. i sometimes go on car trips with my gf, and i occasionally drive her after a night out.

i haven't missed my car. even when i had it, i pretty much biked everywhere.

i've had two cars, the first a '79 honda prelude with a sunroof that i bought for $500

the second, i got from an aunt and it was an 84 oldsmobile cutlass cierra. the radiator broke, and i didn't want to spend the money to fix it, so i sold it for a song.

it will be 10 years in February without one.

I have an old ford taurus that doesn't get very good gas mileage. My fiance has a 03 ford focus, it gets about 35mpg. We are trying to cut out my taurus because it is just to expensive to keep. It was great when I was driving a couple miles here and there in high school, but now it's just not reasonable. My fiance and I both bike now to make the car available for the other when needed, and for our health. I also ride the bus sometimes and when we travel we take the train instead of driving.

There was a point where I owned so many cars I had to have more than one insurance policy.

Haha, glad I'm not the only one to have to admit to a car-loving past... I went through a bit of a collecting phase, mostly small/old/cheap sports cars. I'm mostly reformed, and now that I don't have to drive anywhere, I'm toying with the idea of keeping the ultra-reliable Triumph Spitfire as my only car.

If I get rid of my BMW, it will be for something with a hatch and a roof rack + an old Datsun to restore.

I have nothing against cars. I use mine to get to Monroeville and North Hills for work, and for moving stuff I can't manage on a bike.

I drive an '84 Mercedes Benz 300SD (it's as old as me). In the coming week or two I'll be running it on 100% homemade biodiesel. I've been making test batches but am looking to scale up with waste oil from a local restaurant. I took around some fliers today, it's kinda strange asking people for a waste product!

Disheartening to see all the car owners here, I've got nothing against people who drive cars, just the all pervasive car culture of which I too am a part. My GF drives a Ford Uber truck, prolly gets three miles to the gallon, About twice a month I get in it. We go places. I also eat alot of oranges and bananas, I'm pretty sure they take long rides in trucks to get to me. I hate cars, I'm also a hypocrite.

Timito, if it makes you feel any better, your bike is probably at least built with components manufactured half a world away in countries with rather lax environmental protections. And the production of steel and aluminum is hardly environmentally friendly either.

We're all hypocrites in one way or another. Really, the only way not to be a hypocrite is to live in a cave, grow your own food, and make your own clothes.

Some other Eurovan owner, they may even own two or their neighbor also has one.

Yeah, I tried living in a cave, it really sucks.

I mostly use "pre-owned things" but it's hard to get a decent "pre-owned" banana, besides "pre-owned" or not, shit still came in a truck.

I'm pretty sure my "brand new" bike tires are made from oil and they too arrived by truck.

Disheartening to see all the car owners here, I've got nothing against people who drive cars, just the all pervasive car culture of which I too am a part.

I haven't seen her in a while, but there was this lady I would see with a cargo bike who rode around with her son just perched on the a wooden board at the back. He was wearing a helmet and had great balance but I always wondered how she made if safe. I totally admired her dedication to biking everhwhere, but it wouldn't have taken much for that to go bad in a hurry. She could have had a safer setup of course--at least it seems so to me, I don't really know how she was setup and so should not be making a judgement-- but my point is that there are times in the phases of our lives--in our current culture--when you need a car. I suppose I could tell my daughter that she can't play soccer because we can't bike to Latrobe for the playoff game, but I don't choose to make that tradeoff.

Cars = tools, bikes = tools, buses = tools, shoes = tools.

Tools are neither inherently good nor inherently bad; they can be misused, abused, or overused, but all of the above are the result of operator error.

Using the right tool for a job is nothing of which to be ashamed.

That person has a car seat attached to her Xtracycle. I see her quite a bit in the South Side, and last week (ironically, when I was riding Eric's Xtracycle) I saw her walking the bike to get to the Jail Trail out of Junction Hollow.

I view cars as tools--useful in some circumstances. Yes, our current culture is a bit too tied to the car as a method of transportation, and that's a Bad Thing(tm), and I would like to see that change. I also think my family could manage just fine, thank you very much, without a car, but we like road tripping too much to give it up.

I'm not against people who drive cars, just cars, I realize sometimes, like taking your daughter to soccer where it would be the preferred method of transport. I do get annoyed with the mentality that driving is a necessity. It's not, it's a luxury, a luxury more and more people cannot afford. I'm a hypocrite, I use oil.

I don't think being a cyclist that owns a car makes you a hypocrite, and I don't think everyone has to get rid of their cars to put a dent in the "car culture". I've been lucky enough to be able to reduce my car usage by probably 8k miles in the past year, but I realize not everyone else is willing or has the opportunity to do the same. I think it's great because it's better for me personally, so whether my motivation includes "saving the environment" is more or less irrelevant. It's much easier to encourage people to follow suit based on self-interest rather than guilt.

It's not until you depend on the car that it becomes bad in my opinion. I know people who commute to work, 2 miles in their car. That is just silly to me.

I do believe everyone does have the opportunity to give up their car, it's just too inconvenient and I understand that, but is not a necessity. I do believe I'm a hypocrite, I don't own a car but I do occasionally use one.

I do get annoyed with the mentality that driving is a necessity. It's not, it's a luxury...

I had a prolonged argument in a guitar players group about this. Car use as a choice? y/n?

Summary:

Dude: Well, you can chose to not have a car where you live.

Me: You mean where I chose to live?

(REPEAT many, many times with inconsequential variations)

But you have to admit that if you were an air traffic controller living with two kids in Burgettstown and had a sick mom 5 miles down the road, the choices required to give up a car would be a bit difficult. Hard to describe as a "luxury."

People make the hundreds of choices it takes to get in that situation without even thinking "This will chain me to car ownership"

In my life, I've been in love with 3 women that loved me back. Two of them had serious problems with my independence from cars. The third is dead.

There is a price in going against the ingrained assumptions of society.

Someone from the WWII generation would have had a hard time having a successful career, other than physical industrial work, if they never wore a neck tie - and everyone KNEW ties were silly and useless. People don't recognize their own assumptions about cars.

Forester on engineering employment:

"I had several employers in the 1950s ... On occasion, I cycled to work, either for fun or to make some social arrangement more convenient. I came to recognize that once I had done so, I was no longer considered fit for promotion. One is not told such things; the realization comes gradually through repeated experience."

I guessing that Forester exaggerated: you could probably ride to work some - as long as you didn't made it more than once a year. Or maybe once every 2 years.

Things have changed. Maybe the realization that you can chose to live without cars is becoming acceptable. Maybe it will have to wait a decade or two until oil prices itself out.

I'm ranting. Need to get to work.

Mick

I agree with all the tool talk.

I would say that my kids are the biggest thing keeping me tied to the car and of course road trips which we will probaly never stop. When they were younger and could both fit in the trailer we biked much more for transpo. and I think once I am able to take them both on my own again without creating a 15 foot long train, we will bike much more.

I like cars, a lot. I also like bikes of all flavors, motorcycles, italian scooters, walking for goodness sake, many diverse passions. I hate waste, in any form, so when my neighbors drive their suv 300 feet to get their kid to the bus stop in the morning, I think they're idiots, and not harmless idiots.

But cars are only part of a big picture. If you live in a 90 year old building with no insulation, a 50 year old furnace, don't own a car and bike everywhere, environmentally you're probably only just even with someone who lives in a modern insulated house with a high efficiency furnace and drives a car responsibility.

When I didn't have access to a car, the only way I could take regional trips was by train. Good for my parents 2 hours away, bad for visiting friends in NC or NJ. I stayed in Pgh. a lot. Big standard of living decrease. Until we get a modern rail system, I don't see being too happy without any access to cars. Could do Zipcar, but that is hella expensive. I think a reasonable thing to do right now is try to share cars as much as possible. Like one per family. It's possible if you choose to live in an urban area.

What I've been advocating for years is trying to go absolutely everywhere without use of an automobile. Do-able if you're in SSide, EEnd, Oakland, etc. Damn difficult in the suburbs. I can get 3 miles S by bus but not 3 miles N. But I *can* get 6 miles N by bus ... provided I bus 10 miles S into the city first.

Not driving means I'm walking or biking, often across private property, often hopping across very busy streets (e.g. McKnight Rd), routinely along streets without sidewalks, lighting or even shoulders. And bicycle up McKnight, taking the lane for three, four miles at a stretch.

And I advocate this! Nobody is going to change unless someone does it first, figures out what has to be done to get things changed, then hold public officials accountable to actually change them.

VW Jetta GLI. Crappy mileage. And I like it. I don't ride for the environment, I ride for me. I also live in a terribly inefficient house and burn lots of gas to keep it warm. It's not about right or wrong; some of us make choices that others do not.

When ever people talk about their cars it's always something negative, something unfortunate.

It's something that's costing them money, money they need for the electric bill

money for taking a trip,

http://www.blueridgeparkway.org/

a lovely drive, I highly recommend it.

To most people driving a car is not a luxury. All right.

For me it'd be a burden, isolating, irritating and expensive.

I don't want to be away from my family, working, so I can drive my car to work.

go ahead, drive, I'll even help pay for your roads.

As someone who knows people who love both bikes and the internal combustion engine, I find this "cars are bad" line of reasoning slightly disheartening and a bit simplistic. Cars are not inherently bad and as bjanaszek aptly pointed out, there's no way outside of living like a hermit to complete eliminate one's carbon footprint. Everyone chooses to lower it in a diff't way (Prius vs. bicycle), or not to lower it. The problem is when attitudes about one choice are adopted at The Ultimate Truth (i.e. the Primacy of Driving over all other forms of transportation).

I appreciate that most people here are not so absolutist and that everyone respects each other's choice.

That's my two cents.

96 Saturn Sl2. It has 173,000 miles on it. I average 7,000-10,000 miles a year. I track my gas mileage meticulously and have averaged 30mpg as long as I have owned the car.

what some people don't realize is that cars are necessary in some situations. in all? no (ie the 300 yards to pick up the kids, or backing down the driveway to get the mail/newspaper etc)

in others, they're necessary. ie. the midwest- where some people live 50+ miles from stores, and even further sometimes from hospitals etc.

also: i've moved to baltimore. my wife works downtown, where there is no possibility of us being able to afford a place to live in walkable/bikeable distances for her. Public transportation requires her to walk through an unsafe neighborhood, often after dark. I'd rather her use our prius to drive to work than risk her safety.

once again, i don't think cars are the problem, but there's a lot of problematic attitudes that americans carry towards thier entitlement to cars. That being said, i do love cars, trucks, and all sorts of vehicles.

I am most certainly being simplistic, I don't want to own a car and i don't want to live like a hermit,

I get around.

I like to fly in planes.

Sometimes I like to stay home and burn coal.

Yes, like a hermit, a hermit with unfettered access to coal.

You can drive what ever you want.

I drive a 2008 subaru impreza. I moved here from south jersey where the nearest mall was 40 miles away, and here I do a fair amount of traveling as well.

I know a lot of people who truly love cars (some of them ride bikes too). I used to race and restore cars. The car I own now, I bought because I have always been attracted towards it.

The way I see it, gear heads are gear heads. My friend who got me into riding lives on a farm, grows a lot of his own food, burns wood for heat, and... he loves cars.

I think it is all about moderation. If you want to drive, drive. Ride? Ride.

I own a car. I like it just fine. I'm not anti-car, I'm anti-using-them-for-absolutely-everything. Ironically, my car has come in quite handy for BikePGH on more than a handful of occasions.

I think it's a shame that so many people use their cars to go a mile or two to run errands when a bike or walking would do fine.

I try not to be fundamentalist about anything. Sure I obviously think bikes are the best, but I'd be happy if people just tried replacing one or two car trips a week with biking or walking.

Baby steps...

It would be great if people who drive to the gym to work out would consider biking there instead...

That always cracks me up---if the weather's good, I try to avoid the gym.

I have a 91 toyota pickup which I dearly love I need it for certain types of hauling. It broke down. So I decided to give cycling to work a try. What a rush, early in the morning no one one the roads. I though my commute would make me tired. It did not. It energized me at 61 years of age. I'm already thinking about a new bike!!!

any suggestions!!!...

@junebug, awesome man, awesome. Your post has shined up my morning.

What is your commute route like, how far and what kind of terrain?

What Mick said about choices.

"The moral to the story is...your addiction to your needs and your

wants is what causes problems in your life. Make sure you got whatcha

need. Put at a safe distance all the things that you want. It's wants

that get you into trouble.

This is the balance of life...the balance to life on a whole"

_ KRS One

For those of you who own and drive cars, and who keep track of mileage and that sort of thing, I'm wondering if you've crunched any numbers and calculated a value for your total (or marginal) cost per mile. This including depreciation, maintenance, insurance and registration fees--not just gas. Reimbursement rates, which supposedly figure all that in, are right around $0.50 per mile now--a figure that blows my mind every time I think about it, but it is also calculated using depreciation on a new car, rather than an older/used one.

So is this number outrageously high or what? What's your experience?

Considering I just spent $2200 for a new engine (parts+labor) since the old one decided to blow up in North Carolina, I'd say car ownership is the most expensive waste per mile I've ever experienced. Fortunately I brought my bike with me and was able to bike around town for the few days I was stuck, for free.

i'll use my personal experience as an example of the opposite extreme although i doubt it's typical.

i've put 18000 miles on my prius since buying it in February, and have had roughly 1000 dollars of expenses between 5k services, 2 new tires, replacing a taillight etc. (my expenses will be lower when the warranty expires because i'll no longer bring it to toyota dealers for service (of course the older the car the more expense so this may be a moot point)

using 45mpg (towards my low end) as an average, and 2.75 (towards my high end) works out to ~1100 dollars in gas. that's 2100 dollars for 18000 miles or 11.67 cents per mile.

I don't know how to figure in car depreciation (its a 2007 prius, which i bought used last february for 15400 with 16500 miles.)

yes i got a great deal on my car, yes it's way towards the economical/reliable side of the spectrum, but i love getting reimbursed for mileage, as i always come out way ahead.

There are your costs for owning a car, I sincerely hope it's working out for you. I hope you get great mileage. Then there is my cost of you owning a car, a little harder to quantify. I don't own a car but I subsidize others. There's the cost to my health when I breath exaust, the inconvenience and even fear I experience, as I make my way through traffic. Building and maintaining roads, Getting the oil here. What's my cost per your mile of driving? as always I am not coming out ahead.

I don't really do math around my car ownership. I've made the choice to own one, and I'm not looking to come out ahead.

There are costs to just about everything we consume, and those costs are paid by everyone, everyday.

It just annoys me to help pay for someone elses automobile when I'm not even getting a ride. I'm making the choice not to own one, yet I help fund yours.

The same could be said for school tax if you don't have kids, or paying for welfare, or any government service that you may not use but that your tax dollars help fund.

Its kinda like arguing with a cop because you "pay his/her salary".

You could always just refuse to pay your income taxes and redirect them as you see fit like these people...

http://www.wartaxboycott.org/

The same could be said for school tax if you don't have kids, or paying for welfare, or any government service that you may not use but that your tax dollars help fund.

Its kinda like arguing with a cop because you "pay his/her salary".

+1

Like arguing with a cop, while he blows exhaust on me, and menaces me with he's nightstick. I see what your saying.

I don't mind paying taxes to educate kids and employ teachers, feed people, I don't understand the trade off with underwriting automobiles and the energy they use. What do I get outta this.

2004 Honda Civic, 2008 Honda Fit.

My wife uses the Civic to get to work (@18 miles one way). When I was working over on the Northside, I rode my bike to and from as much as possible (65 days in a row at one point), and drove when I couldn't ride.

I work from home now, so the Fit doesn't get used as much, but it's a great little car. We can throw both of our MTBs in there and head wherever. My wife doesn't bike as much as I do, so asking her to ride from our house (Munhall) to, say, Frick isn't especially realistic.

I'll throw a bike in the car a lot of the times for post-work group rides, or even weekend rides that are really far out. In some cases, I can't make it to the starting point in time if I ride there.

I like our cars. When Heather was in an accident earlier this year, there was some concern as to whether her car would be totaled. If it had been, we'd have probably dropped down to one car. It wasn't, so for now we're sticking with two. If I'm still working from home when we've paid off the Fit, maybe we'll re-evaluate.

I do know that to be employed in this culture, raise a family, etc. It can unfortunately be a necessity to own a car. What's sad is that someone on a bike advocacy website would suggest that my reluctance to fund an oil economy and all it's trimmings is the same as funding someones education or food. Buying gas is not the same as buying books. Sitting in traffic, is not the same as sitting on the couch reading a book. Yeah, it is similar to arguing with a cop.

Your taxes also underwrite:

* The military-industrial complex

* The coal industry

* Wall Street

* Industrial farming

There are trade-offs to being a member of society. Some people on this board have made choices to live without automobiles. Some of us have made choices to significantly limit our dependence on an automobile. But to ask what you get out of underwriting oil is kinda silly. Here's what you get out of it:

* Inexpensive parts for your bikes

* Inexpensive food (even if you purchase directly from local growers, since they don't grow their food in the city, for the most part)

* Inexpensive access to computers and the internet

As I said before, if you don't like supporting unsustainable energy, you're probably better off living in a cave, growing your own food, and making your own clothes. But please, be sure it's out of the way, so I don't have to breath the smoke from the fire you use to keep warm.

What's sad is that someone on a bike advocacy website would suggest that my reluctance to fund an oil economy and all it's trimmings is the same as funding someones education or food.

Why sad? Advocating bikes does not mean one must be anti-car.

As far as "what you get outta" underwriting activities you don't participate in? You get others underwriting those activities that you do participate in. That's more-or-less the way societies of disparate people work...

Shouldn't bike riders get credits under the emissions cap and trade thing ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_and_trade

Ok, asking a question is silly, sorry. I was actually curious about what I get. I know, inexpensive parts, yes I know, I commented on this in a previous post. Inexpensive food, this I know I even commented on the amount of bananas I eat.

Inexpensive access to computers and the internet, this I never thought about, it's true. What else am I trading for that I don't know about.

I burn a lot of coal, I tried living in a cave. I didn't like it. I don't like car's. I do like people.

What make's it sad to me, is coming to a bike advocacy website and hearing the same rationalizations I hear everywhere, plus, I should probably live in a cave. I don't like cars and I don't wanna pay for yours so I should probably live in a cave, I should probably ride my bike on the sidewalk too.

I should probably ride my bike on the sidewalk too.

Nah, sidewalks are a result of the oil culture too. We only _needed_ 'em once cars became common.

Besides, speaking as a property owner with a sidewalk in front of my house, I'm not happy about underwriting your bike riding (or walking, or roller blading) by maintaining my sidewalk. I don't need it; what do I get out of keeping it usable?

By the way, perhaps the reason you keep hearing the same rationalizations everywhere is because they're actually, well, rational.

If only the sidewalks were nice enough to ride on.

I do wish there was more visibility, and by visibility I mean sort of a big picture explanation, into funding sources and where it all goes.

Like bjanaszek said, there are so many things that are more or less cross funded, that, even tho we dont see the direct benefit of it, there are secondary benefits that we do receive.

I think we would see a huge increase in bicycling if there were less oil subsidies and more road taxes (ref England or really any EU nation). If gas was $5+ per gallon, people would start finding another way.

I should live in a cave, I should happily pay to fund the automotive economy and culture. That's not rational, to me. I find it unfortunate to receive that advice here.

I should live in a cave, I should happily pay to fund the automotive economy and culture.

Personally, I don't advise that you do either. Living in caves is reputed to be a recipe for a nasty, brutish, and short existence. As far as happily goes, no-one has said you should be happy to contribute...all that has been said is that, like it or not, we all have to pay for some things that we disagree with. That's life in an imperfect world, bro.

True, no one said I should be happy to pay, It was just pointed out all the great things I get out of the deal. It's just like paying a cops salary. It's just like paying for education. It's the same as paying foe welfare. It's not the same. Not to me. I was surprised I would find people here that do believe it's the same. Believe what you will. I will never find automobiles "rational"

The point is not that you, specifically, get great stuff out of the deal; the point is that we (us, everyone) support each other by underwriting even those things we disagree with.

It's just like paying for education, or a cop's salary, or welfare, because some people agree that it's worth it, and some disagree that it's worth it, but everyone has to pay regardless of whether or not they agree. THAT'S how it's just the same; whether any one of these things is good, bad, or indifferent isn't the point.

Maybe, for some people, paying for education is the same as subsidizing the automobile, It's not the same to me. That's just my opinion.

I also support prisons, military involvement in foreign countries and I just redecorated the White House.

Dont forget the farm subsidies that lead to overweight Americans and poor food for low income people.

I also support prisons, military involvement in foreign countries and I just redecorated the White House.

Me too! What a coincidence!

I recently bailed out a couple of banks and auto makers...how about you?

@timito No one is asking you to be comfortable with the car culture simply by pointing out other things our income tax supports that many reading this message board might be uncomfortable with.

also, your dichotomous serious and sarcastic tone doesn't really help your effort to turn the people on this board away from their autos.

Actually it would seem people are at least trying to get me to accept car culture by pointing out my complicity. I realize I'm part of It, I realize I use oil too. I live in it, I know, I don't have to agree with it, like it, or even accept it. I'm not trying to turn anyone away from their car, I was hoping common sense would. Someone compares paying for education to subsidizing roads, I can't help but use sarcasm in my language.

Someone compares paying for education to subsidizing roads, I can't help but use sarcasm in my language.

Some might say that schools are just as insidious as roads.

Roads are also used for bikes, emergency vehicles, and buses. What in that list would you like to see no longer available to the general public?

[Edited to add:] Sorry for being snippy to no good purpose. I'm done now.

the inherent negetivity of your tone throughout this dicussion ensures that your point will be lost.

Can we have a button on the message board that will add this to a thread?

"Some might say that schools are just as insidious as roads. "

+1

I never refer to roads specifically. It's the whole car culture. I find it isolating, irritating and incorrect, that's me, of all the things my money get's spent on it's perhaps the one I can have the most affect on by not driving a car.

Hey timito... Your mistake is assuming that everyone advocates bicycle use for the same reasons you do, and in the same proportions.

If you understood that many people are bicycle enthusiasts for their own different reasons, then you wouldn't be so shocked to find them on this website.

I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that you probably don't subsidize *my* car. More likely, it's me that is subsidizing your various stuff. And we're both subsidizing the military/industrial/oil/agribiz complex.

I'm not bitching about it, just sayin'.

I never said "shocked" I used the word disheartening, to me it's unfortunate that people on a bike advocacy website would try and convince me of the merits and responsibility of car ownership. Now it's who subsidizes more? All right, you do.

to me it's unfortunate that someone would try to call people out for driving on a bike message board. Nobody needs to feel more guilt than they already do for driving a car and if you want things to change, maybe you should try to engage in a positive discourse instead of typin all holier than thou.

Maybe share some advice and encouragement for people that are tentative to commute every day?

I am a massive car hater and a 365 cyclist myself so you can take me seriously when I say, your approach is making things worse, not better.

I never called anyone anything, I expressed some disappointment, not sure where I come across as holier than though, please explain where that happens, I never criticized anyone here for driving. I expressed some opinions I have. It was suggested maybe I should live in a cave, that's just someone being funny, right?

SpakbrosNobody needs to feel more guilt than they already do for driving a car

Spak, I agree with most of what you say, but I strongly disagree with this statement.

Plenty of people think car driving is some kind of virtue, when, in reality, it is a vice that might wreck this country, if not the world.

There are few - if any - of those people here on this board though, so in a practical sense you are right.

I think the biggest thing that can be done is simply to encourage the idea that normal people can chose to live without a car.

@Timito - there are people who believe that paying for roads is a legitimate government expense, but that education is a family responsibility. It was a pleasure to help vote Rick Santorum out of office, but SOMEONE voted him in.

Mick

"I do believe everyone does have the opportunity to give up their car, it's just too inconvenient and I understand that, but is not a necessity"

"There are your costs for owning a car, I sincerely hope it's working out for you. I hope you get great mileage. Then there is my cost of you owning a car, a little harder to quantify. I don't own a car but I subsidize others. There's the cost to my health when I breath exaust, the inconvenience and even fear I experience, as I make my way through traffic. Building and maintaining roads, Getting the oil here. What's my cost per your mile of driving? as always I am not coming out ahead."

" It just annoys me to help pay for someone elses automobile when I'm not even getting a ride. I'm making the choice not to own one, yet I help fund yours."

"What make's it sad to me, is coming to a bike advocacy website and hearing the same rationalizations I hear everywhere"

@mick- that was meant to say nobody "on this board"

Who said I want to change things. I go from disappointed to shocked, from discussing opinions to "calling people out", one guy boasts he "subsidizes" more then me, All right. I'm sorry I'm being so negative about cars on a Bike Advocacy website, sorry if I made anyone feel guilty.

Mick sez:

"I think the biggest thing that can be done is simply to encourage the idea that normal people can chose to live without a car."

I think this is pretty good advice, but earlier in this thread (or maybe it was another one) Scott said that the best first step is to encourage people to make one trip a week on their bike (hence Car-Free Fridays). I haven't driven a car, or even taken public transportation, to work in quite a few years. But many moons ago I started by riding one day a week.

"Normal" people can get by without a car, but often they can't wrap their heads around that straightaway. Better to encourage incremental change.

My criticism was of your approach, not your content and I certainly don't want to make you feel guilty or isolated either. Just suggesting that there is a better way to have a constructive dialogue

I've been isolated for a while imagine living in America your whole life without a ca... Oh right, I never meant to be negative to the people here, cars yes, I'm negative about cars, I thought maybe I would find others to commiserate with here. I didn't expect people to try and school me on how I'm complicit and it's America and drivings a necessity and not a luxury. Discussions about gas mileage I didn't expect.

Timito, you will find others to commiserate with here, sure. But there's a mix. We all like bikes, isn't that enough? Seems to me there's not enough "live and let live" in the world these days.

you know, this thread just reminds me of how much my outlook has changed as i matured. i used to be "against" all kinds of things, but the older i get the more i find that being "for" things is way more productive and fulfilling...

Look at the monster I started...

cburch:

you know, this thread just reminds me of how much my outlook has changed as i matured. i used to be "against" all kinds of things, but the older i get the more i find that being "for" things is way more productive and fulfilling...

I agree. I feel efforts towards Bicycles advocacy are much more beneficial than efforts towards a car-free America.

I will stand by my car just as long as I stand by my bike. To me it's about moderation and responsible usage.

Also, Ian, my car's value has appreciated about 100%

I concur, responsible usage, I was just sitting on Butler st. I counted 87 cars in a row with only the driver in them. I don't know these people and I'm certainly not against them, but that seems irresponsible, just my opinion.

Interesting, "live and let live" that's what I do, I don't like car culture, I came on a bike advocacy website to express my opinion. I get accused of "calling people out" I didn't . I get schooled in my complicity (something I already know). It's suggested maybe I could "live in a cave". I never once attacked anyone for driving.

I actually expressed my understanding of peoples decision to drive. Someone even boasts he subsidizes more then me, He's so assure of he's earning power and my obvious poverty, how much can I possible be subsidizing, I don't even own a car.

Gosh, I think I'll become a member everyone's so friendly here. I was also accused of being sarcastic, that parts true.

I thought Scott summed it up well on Page 2 with this: "I'm not anti-car, I'm anti-using-them-for-absolutely-everything."

I'm for trying to live without using a car, not actually living without a car. A subtle distinction.

I'll sum it up for myself, I am anti-car, I'm not anti-people, I don't drive a car, others can, I don't have to like it. I just didn't expect members of a bicycle advocacy group to defend their decision so vehemently, to the point of changing my words and suggesting I should live in a cave, suggesting I don't have a place in this most glorious of societies.

@timito: to the point of changing my words and suggesting I should live in a cave, suggesting I don't have a place in this most glorious of societies.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I will reiterate my belief that you should not live in a cave.

@Stew: I'm for trying to live without using a car, not actually living without a car. A subtle distinction.

But an important one. It is not a one-size-fits-all world in which we live, and there is room for a bit of imperfection amongst the faithful.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone literally go live in a cave, but simply wanted to point out that it's quite difficult to completely divorce yourself from our oil-driven culture. We are all complicit in it to one degree or another.

"Look at the monster I started..."

Yeah, wow. Timito, your posts have seemed perfectly reasonable to me. You are absolutely right about the externalities of driving -- there are costs to society that are not captured in the price of gas. If all costs were captured in the prices of cars and driving, people would be able to make truly informed decisions about it. As it stands now, the market is distorted. Timito simply brought up some examples of costs that are not included in the "price" that people pay -- some of which are costs that he bears directly. And for many of them, it's not clear who owns the right to make the decision about whether he should have to bear them. I think it's valid to question if he should be the one to own to make the call, i.e., "we" should compensate "him." That's all rational discourse. It won't change anything, but it's definitely not the most outrageous thing I've read on these pages. In fact, it might be one of the more rational.

the older i get the more i find that being "for" things is way more productive and fulfilling

+1

Interesting that MSN just recently put this up: Is the car-free life for you?

So I have a problem with even the most closestest of my friends hating buses as bikers. Being a licensed commercial bus driver, well, is difficult. I could expound for those of you bus haters, in another venue and all civil like I assure you. Needless to say: dealing with the public can be horrible regardless of venue. But if you want to talk vehicle and mpg. A 1972 flxible manual steering bus got about 8 hours of full route time before refilling. That's well I'll have to double check my driver's manuals to check fuel capacity. Iirc it's worthwile.

I hated modern "efficient" claims when my 1997 Saab 9000s got 29+ mpg before I totalled her of late. /lament.

My buell gets 65-75 mpg.

Me?

I get tired.

Ultimately I find it disappointing to come on a bike advocacy forum and defend an anti-car stance, have my words changed, distorted and taken out of context.

This is from my very first post : I've got nothing against people who drive cars, just the all pervasive car culture of which I too am a part.

Pretty clear I'm not anti-people' and I know I'm a part of this culture.

to ask what you get out of underwriting oil is kinda silly

I ask an honest question it's deemed "silly"

It's just like paying for education, or a cop's salary, or welfare,

It's suggested to me that paying for schools is the same as paying for roads.

To some people it may be, to me it's not.

you probably don't subsidize *my* car. More likely, it's me that is subsidizing your various stuff.

What's this guy saying, I'm not sure. He's subsidizing my various stuff ???

I do know, subsidies aside, I breath in the exhaust, how do I quantify the cost of that,

I push my baby up and down Butler, she breathes that in, she's a year old, she's gotta pay too?, what's the cost to her?

it's unfortunate that someone would try to call people out for driving on a bike message board .

At no point did I "call anyone out".

Good job discouraging a prospective member.

I had to reread this thing a few times, trying to figure out where I went wrong, I mean if people on a bike advocacy forum can't handle a discussion about cars and there impact, without being mean, what's gonna happen if I try and express my ideas to "normal people"

"my point is that there are times in the phases of our lives--in our current culture--when you need a car"

this guy says YOU, I'm assuming he's being self referential. He can't be referring to me, I don't need a car.

"what some people don't realize is that cars are necessary in some situations."

Not in any situation I'm likely to involve myself in.

"the inherent negetivity of your tone throughout this dicussion ensures that your point will be lost."

this guy doesn't like my tone.

"Your mistake is assuming that everyone advocates bicycle use for the same reasons you do, and in the same proportions."

I didn't make a mistake, I didn't assume anything about why people ride a bike. It would seem the opposite, people here assuming things about me.

.

The problem with discussing things using written medium is that often times it is up to the reader to impart tone and intent since so much of a conversation is in body language and other unspoken means.

I appreciate that you are car free. Up until about a year or so ago, I was a typical car dependant american. Most of that was due to ignorance.

I still own a car, and I still use it for what I deem are appropriate situations. My family lives about a thousand miles away, and I do like to visit them a couple times a year. I also find it convenient to take my dog where they need to go when I have to take them somewhere. All toll, I may put 5000 miles on my car a year and 4000 miles of that is visiting my family. I may drive my car once per week to take my dogs to Frick park. I am considering getting a trailer for that purpose in the spring, but until then, I try to avoid using my car and either walk or bike for everything else.

I agree that the attitude of the typical american and the reliance of our culture on is disappointing, but I also believe that most of that attitude is from ignorance, not intent. It is hard to convey to people the concept of ditching the car without them actually trying it. One of those things that has to be experienced, not just told.

My personal take one what got people stirred up is why you found all this "disappointing". The people in this organization and on these boards are just that.. people. Even most of the people that dont own cars will still admit to using them once in a while, either borrowing one or renting one. Also, Ownership does not imply abusive use. I think most of the people in this community would be considered some of the more responsible users of cars. Using then only when appropriate.

I do agree that automobiles are an imperfect transportation solution,but so are bicycles. I agree with the post that said, they are both tools. It is up to the owner to determine which tool is best for the job and how to use the tool properly.

I will say this tho, there are a few topics that always is good for an argument on the forums.

1) helmets

2) cars

3) traffic laws

All this being said. I hope you stick around and make people squirm in other topics.

Trying to convince most Americans to give up their dependence on the auto is like relegating them to complete immobility. Obviously the people here understand it's not.

I know the people here use their cars sparingly, thanks. Your not the inconsiderate, oblivious drivers that talk on their phone as they narrowly avoid side swiping my Baby's carriage which I push down Butler, I have the light, I'm in the crosswalk, yet they continue to turn while I stand there both amazed and infuriated, Ok I lied, there are some drivers I hate, but I seriously doubt it's you.

jkoutoubra - I totally agree.

timito, it's not that I disagree with you, it's just that for some reason, which might very well be accidental, your posts give me the impression of an angry young man with a chip on his shoulder the size of Rhode Island, looking to pick a fight. You've done a little bit more than express your opinion. I would say it's the equivalent of walking into a bar full of regulars and talking smack about the guy who just walked out -- expecting everyone to agree with you, instead of understanding that guy might be friends with all the alcoholics around you.

If you really are surprised that you've pushed a bunch of buttons, and you really do want to learn how to negotiate Internet fora/lists/bboards without leaving flame wars in your wake, PM me. I'll be happy to buy the beer and try to explain it.

Or, you could be self-righteous and defensive and carry on wrapping yourself in a martyr's mantle. Makes no difference to me.

You could point out where I did more then express my opinion, seriously, where is that part, I've read this thing a couple times, I can't find the part where I call people out or do anything but express my opinion. In fact I express several times this is just my opinion. I'm not being sarcastic here, somebody point out where I go beyond expressing my opinion.

ON the topic of exhaust fumes tho.. And maybe StuInMcCandless can offer some insight because he work with PAT.

Is there a reason that the exhaust stacks of the buses point directly behind rather than up a bit? Biking behind a bus cant be quite unpleasant and does make it difficult to breathe sometimes. I just think angleing the exhaust pipes up a bit would help a lot.

Timito: "Good job discouraging a prospective member."

I find this quite disappointing. I feel like all the people on this board are just trying to have an intelligent conversation, exploring ideas. If that stops you from being a member, I think you have lost focus on what bicycle advocacy is about.

Miasme: "I hated modern "efficient" claims when my 1997 Saab 9000s got 29+ mpg before I totalled her of late. /lament.

My buell gets 65-75 mpg."

What kind of Buell?

netviln:I just think angleing the exhaust pipes up a bit would help a lot.

If you angle exhaust up, that pipe can take on water.

Don't most the buses have their exhausts coming out of the top?

yes it comes out of the top but points straight back. I understand you dont want it to take water and point but some sort of hood or shield could be fitted. I just think its a poor design. Even if you are in a car you can get a car full of exhaust.

I'm not that bothered by PAT buses, school buses and trucks bother me more.

I like riding behind buses, close enough to take advantage of the wind barrier, but far enough to be able to stop suddenly. There's a sweet spot, about 8 feet back, where the wind curls around and seems to push forward.

FWIW, most if not all PAT buses use "clean diesel".

That, and there are at least 10 different bus types out there, so there's no knowing which one has the worst exhaust dynamics. Most are at roof level, though.

Also expect 20 new diesel-electric hybrids on the roads in a couple of weeks (#5701-5720). All with new bike racks. I don't have it official yet but 20 rackless gone, at least 155 to go.

I don't have it official yet but 20 rackless gone, at least 155 to go.

You just made my day.

I drafted an express bus from Harvard Square to Somerville once when I was in a hurry to get home before dark. The lights were timed, and they were all green -- or close enough that I didn't get dropped. I still get a rush remembering that ride.

Contrariwise, I disrecommend drafting garbage trucks.

After 18 years and 190,000 plus miles we are getting another Honda Civic today. Even though it still gets over 30 mph city, we worry about the reliability. We looked at hybrids, but the cost was prohibitive- we just don't drive enough to make it a profitible endeavor. It was not worth another $10,000.00 or so to walk past a hybrid sitting in our driveway for the next 15 or more years. I bike daily, my partner takes the bus.

Suzuki SV650: primary long-range displacement device, operating via the consumption of petrol at a rate of 167 furlongs to the gill.

Sunfire: sucks, but it's nice to have for cold & bad weather, and it still gets 30 mi.•gal.?¹.

I used to be car-free. Now I pay $100 a month for insurance. Where did I go wrong, you ask? I moved out of the city. And not into a cave.

Suzuki SV650: primary long-range displacement device, operating via the consumption of petrol at a rate of 167 furlongs to the gill.

You get 670 miles per gallon?

Just curious? who doesn't own a car?

february will be 10 years car free for me. i want to celebrate somehow, but i'll probably just ride my bike.

with that said, i'm also a zipcar member, but mostly (ok, purely) because i own a "fixer-upper" of a house and they have pickup trucks.

also, timito, some unsolicited advice. i think most people agree with you, so don't get so defensive. you definitely have sympathetic people on here.

I feel like i have to address this subject too. BikePGH (who i work for) took a great risk when we decided to host a public forum on our website. both me and scott saw what happened to another local messageboard that was associated with an organization, and that failed pretty miserably in that they had to disassociate themselves from it.

my point is that this messageboard doesn't represent BikePGH or our members, although i do understand that by hosting it on here, it's next to impossible to keep that separate. Sure lots of people on here are members, staff, etc, but there are just as many (and if not more) people on here that are not members at all, and just want to talk bikes, roads, etc.

Please judge the organization based on our work, and not what comes out of a public forum. the usefulness of this board, to me at least, far exceeds the liability of having it associated with our name.

i hate cars as much as the next car-free person, but my love of bikes far surpasses my hatred of cars, so that's what i like to focus on these days. it keeps my life simpler.

I don't own a car.

For a decade, I had one that I inherited, but some people that knew me were really shocked to find out I owned a car.

One of the main benefits to owning a car was that it was easy to make it clear to the people around me that not using a car ws totally a matter of choice for me. The other benefit was about two or sometimes 3 times a year, I would make impromptu trips with hippies to crooked creek lake to go skinny dipping.

Can't put a dollar value to the experience of standing on a beach in the moonlight and passing a ...um... cigarette back and forth with two naked identical twin sisters. Really.

Other than that? I'm better off renting when I want to use a car. Cheaper. Better car. Fewer breakdown worries.

Mick

Mick, maybe that's why people are so addicted to their cars... pretty good reason.

My co-worker just said to me "you own a car" after I told him how cheap my inspection was. I just don't drive it very often, that's why my inspection was so cheap!

My gf and I are car free. We sold our vehicle when we moved here in june of 08. Although about once a month we will borrow a friends car to do some grocery shopping.

Yeah, bad numbers there. Should be 12.5.

Revised math:

Edit: Down with the Imperialist system!

No car here. Probably a lot of us car-free aren't posting much here, since they read the topic and say "not I."

Instead of saying "I own a car", I prefer to say "My house owns a car." It's not my car, my wife's car, etc. It's a shared resource, like the house's land-line telephone.

My parents own two cars, and sometimes they let me borrow one or the other of them. But for most of what I need to do around town, I don't need them.

I flirted with the idea of buying a (cheap) car earlier this year but ultimately decided against it. I'm quite happy with that decision. I've got a Zipcar membership that I've never used--probably because of the "Familycar program" that I'm a member of.

I inherited a car when I was 26, my first automobile. I sold it a couple years later, when I moved out here (after putting about 1,000 miles on it in two years). We now have one car for our household, and unfortunately it gets driven everyday, mostly because one of us works 35 miles from where the other one attends school, so both of us living near work/school isn't possible at this point in our lives.

I got my girlfriend into cycling when we lived out in California. She was riding to the grocery store, to work.. everywhere. I even got her to ride a century with me. We seldom started up a car. But in Pittsburgh, between the roads and maniac drivers, I can't convince her to ride anywhere. It bums me out, but I can't claim she doesn't have a valid point.

Me, personally, I drive 'our' car maybe once a month, at most. If I was by myself, a zipcar would suffice.

My co-worker just said to me "you own a car" after I told him how cheap my inspection was. I just don't drive it very often, that's why my inspection was so cheap!

Most times I need expensive brake work because I did NOT use the car. Bad things happen to brakes when they aren't used.

It would have been cheaper if I fired it up once every week or two and cruised a bit.

Mick

seeing the last few comments my faith is restored.

I was actually walking down Butler thinking of what Bike Pgh represents, my opinion isn't helping bike advocacy. I found this website this morning

http://www.labreform.org/anti-car.html

I agree with it. People riding bikes, not hating cars. I like people that like bikes. I don't really like people that are always hating stuff, except cars.

Even in Copenhagen the percentage of cyclists is around 40%.

I didn't read this entire thread so i don't know what, if any drama ensued but I inherited a car from my parents. It's a 92' Buick park avenue. A boat that an old man usually drives. I usually only use it when I go on road trips out of town or play shows. (I'm a drummer and it fits my entire kit plus some extra room)

Well said Erok.

I started this thread to see what everyone else was using for transport.

For me, a car-free life just isn't possible. I drive 100-250 miles a week, every week. It just isn't doable on a bicycle. That being said, I also pedal 40-60 miles a week.

I don't think we can work towards a better city by being anti-car, but I think we can do a lot by being pro-bike.

I'm in complete agreement. This site's pro-bike, great, I'm pro-bike. I totally respect that and think they do a great job. I'm also anti car,and after being menaced again this evening, with my wife, my baby, a friend and her baby. I remain anti-car. I'll take steps to try and help remedy some of the worst spots in my neighborhood, posting here isn't going to do that. Anybody have any ideas what might?

I'll take steps to try and help remedy some of the worst spots in my neighborhood, posting here isn't going to do that. Anybody have any ideas what might?

Hmmm...how about gathering evidence of problems in specific areas, preferably with pictures and/or video? Collect suitably damning statistics ("In a 2-hour period, 37 automobiles ran the red light, almost striking 12 pedestrians" or whatever) from said evidence, then package it and include it with a formal request to the police for increased presence and citations. Maybe even fire it off to the news outlets, see if any of 'em want to use it as impetus for one of those ever-so-popular investigative reports pieces...

This was my main positive point at the members' meeting last week. Bike-PGH is pro-bikes, not anti-car. Using positive messages about bikes will work better to get people riding than negative messages about cars.

Cars don't kill people, people kill people.

For real though, making the roads family friendly is the next step in biking and walking advocacy.

you know reddan, I have done this, with some success. Reading your post reinforces this for me. Me and my wife helped get a crosswalk at 38th and Butler. So, I'll get back on that, maybe even get a little more organized. Bitching to bicyclists really isn't going to help, so after these threads dry up I'll stop with the negativity (hopefully).

Letting news reporters be lazy works firmly to your advantage. Camp out at a corner with a video camera and do a little investigation. Show elderly people & children being endangered-- emotionally-charged imagery works great.

timito, I definitely recommend using the 311 line if you think an intersection could use some work, or if you consistently see problems the city should address in a particular place. We have gotten good results from 311.

Timito, cars are not the problem, people are. If we can change the culture we can improve our streets for everyone. In Seattle and San Francisco people in cars seem to yield to people walking or biking a heck of a lot more than they do here.

...cars are not the problem, people are. If we can change the culture we can improve our streets for everyone.

+1

I am an example of a person that has gradually been turned around more bike, less auto.

I am the proud owner of a late-model domestic compact sedan, purchased used of course. This auto is candy-apple red with leather seats and way too many gadgets and comforts, which scream to the world “middle-aged owner pathetically trying to replay his youth”. My previous vehicle was an 11+ year-old Japanese compact passed down to me through my family. It was when repairs became increasingly frequent, expensive and the availability of parts getting dicey that I opted to sell it to a close friend (heck, I can still see it daily parked on my street). Other than the color and bling of the present car, it seemed like a logical choice. I was already commuting to work in the suburbs from the Northside and attendance and associated activities were with a suburban North Hills church.

Ironically, shortly after my “newer” car purchase the economy turned south and I had to scramble for alternate employment, which is presently in downtown Pittsburgh. After a several months of walking to work (not really a bad experience), and with the urging of younger health-conscious friends, I made the decision to bike to work. I purchased a very sturdy, low maintenance urban-style commuter model from Giant (with the help of the patient folks at West Liberty Cycles). I couldn’t be more pleased. I get to work much quicker than any other mode, with the concomitant benefits of more intense exercise, and bragging rights that I am greener-than-thou. My employer also has its own parking garage with more than enough secure bike racks.

All this has made me more mindful of my automobile usage. I make many more purchase of good and services locally so that walking or biking is the natural option. I still use the car for church-related volunteering, family trips to New York, Maryland and Wisconsin, and purchasing of materials for my home that can usually only be done economically from big-box store locations outside of Pittsburgh. Thus I am greener, and somewhat leaner, and perhaps on the path to less energy usage, but not fanatically so.

I am the proud owner of a late-model domestic compact sedan, purchased used of course. This auto is candy-apple red with leather seats and way too many gadgets and comforts, which scream to the world “middle-aged owner pathetically trying to replay his youth”.

hmmm...

I know my cars pretty well, but I can't think of too many cars that fit this description. What is it?

...cars are not the problem, people are. If we can change the culture we can improve our streets for everyone.

+1+1.

Timito, I just realized that the thing that surprises me about a bike advocacy website is not that everyone doesn't hate cars passionately. It's that there seem to be a substantial number of people who think that bicycling is difficult and dangerous, and that they're taking their lives in their hands every time they do it. Done properly, it certainly doesn't have to be that way.

To add to the pile of things that are surprising, is the complete denial of society of how dangerous it is to hop in a car, especially since the vehicles so beloved of soccer moms for the supposed safety of their babies, SUV's and minivans, can get by with more lax safety requirements than family sedans. Everyone knows someone who has been in a car accident. Ironically, sometimes making things more safe just drives up the threshold at which really bad things occur.

...cars are not the problem, people are. If we can change the culture we can improve our streets for everyone.

I have to agree with this 100%. I lived in Minneapolis/St. Paul ten years ago, biked all the time and hated it. People honked, told me to get on the sidewalk, threw stuff at me.. not your typical Minnesota behavior. I still have family there, and travel back every so often. The last time I visited I was shocked by how many bikes there were, even in the dead of winter. Cars and bikes seemed to be getting along just fine.

Living in Pittsburgh for the past year made me very weary of crossing any street. People just don't stop for pedestrians here. I visited my friends back in the Bay Area (SF, Mountain View) this summer, and could not believe how every single car yielded to me when I was only walking down the sidewalk. I wasn't even in the intersection and they stop and wait. It is just a different mindset.

I'm not sure how one can change the way drivers think. Increased enforcement would probably do the trick. You start giving people tickets for running stop signs, speeding, and not yielding to pedestrians, they bitch about said tickets to their friends, you could the change behavior of the masses pretty quick I'd imagine.

Enforcement of these kind of rules is way down on the Police Department's priority list while Pittsburgh is still financially being monitored by the state. I cannot seeing this changing for quite a few more years (unless we are willing to pay way more taxes).

So, education, bike-healthy awareness and publicity campaigns with some of our allies, especially commercial establishments, is probably the most effective means to change the car-culture.

As pointed out elsewhere, if there is an area of concentrated complaints about driving habits, the police will do something. Folks in Morningside complained about drivers running the stop sign at Chislett and Martha, and over the course of several months, I saw a squad car at the intersection, often giving a ticket to a driver.

Working with community groups can get things done because, chances are, many residents are fed up with the behaviors that we are.

You know it is funny that people will ban smoking in bars but still drive a car.

It is not unreasonable for non smokers to not want cig smoke in their faces but when a non driver does not want second hand auto exhaust in their faces then they must temper their opinions with vast amounts of understanding.

An addiction is an addiction. Oil addicts act contrary to public safety. They also defy public rights. Ok, what if the leaders are addicted too? What then? The US uses 25% of the worlds daily oil, with 5% of the population. Ok, what happens when the oil reserves are seized by the govt in about 3-6 years? The amount of energy it takes to make a hybrid, you could drive your civic for a year.

"Ok, what happens when the oil reserves are seized by the govt in about 3-6 years?"

Huh? You lost me. I get the property rights argument, i.e., who gets to decide what's acceptable. But now we're on governments seizing oil? Is this some Brave New World reference? We're all oil addicts, so the government is going to seize the oil and only give it to the people who obey? Maybe buy votes with oil? And the military goes along with it because all the soldiers get as much oil as they want? I guess the answer is you're suddenly sitting pretty because you don't care about oil. Personally, I can't see the government agreeing on anything in the next 3-6 years, much less to seize the world's oil. It'll be interesting to see how the experiment pans out.

Well, when reserves are way down, the US military uses 3 million gallons of fuel daily. Who do you think is going to get their supply "controlled". I have gas ration cards from ww2. You think some magic invention or super company is gonna step up with lack of oil answers? Nope, an addict does not want to admit when they are gonna run out of their fix, at least not to themselves, makes them panic, see?

Look at every war waged by the US in since the 1950's. 95% are for oil.

What did people have before fossil fuel oils?

Whale blubber and horses.

What are they going to have when it is gone?

Veggie oil and bicycles

3-6 years is an estimate, intentionally short to raise awareness.

As far as it goes though, second hand auto exhaust is more dangerous than second hand cig smoke.

Living in Pittsburgh for the past year made me very weary of crossing any street. People just don't stop for pedestrians here.

Funny you mention that b/c I was crossing at Fifth and Bigelow with a friend tonight and we were nearly pancaked by drivers turning onto Fifth. It was scary.

Actually, it goes back further than that. One of Hitler's main motivations in 1939-40 was oil supply. The lack of easy access to oil hastened Hitler's demise. (I am *not* defending Hitler, only pointing out that WWII was possibly the first oil war.) linky

Living in Pittsburgh for the past year made me very weary of crossing any street. People just don't stop for pedestrians here.

Three or four times in the last few days I've had near-run-ins with pedestrians on my bike. Sometimes they're starting to cross before they have the "walk" signal (this was on Fifth and Bouquet) and downtown, people cross mid-block, which I guess I don't object to, but they seemed like they didn't see me. I've slammed on the brakes or swerved out of the way, but sometimes people are spaced out as they cross the street. (To be completely fair, this includes me from time to time.)

I've decided that crossing mid-block is safer and easier than crossing at the corner. When crossing at the corner, you have to keep looking behind you, which is difficult. When crossing midblock, you can just watch from side to side -- first left, then right.

I agree pedestrians don't pay attention either, at some busy intersections though there is no signage for pedestrians. It makes it hard to navigate, especially for the elderly. I'll cross mid-block by myself, but find a light or crosswalk when I'm with the baby.

The US cut off Japan from their oil in WW2 as well.

Seems like bombing Pearl Harbor was a retaliation for being cut off from their supply. Nothing but another drug war.

The thing is, when someone is crossing the street and a car driver hurries, intimidates or otherwise pressures them to get across the road, that is a manifestation of their oil addiction. The problem is that to deal with their addiction they have to apologize to every person they have wronged or hurt while behind the wheel, Twelve steps...

The US cut off Japan from their oil in WW2 as well.

Seems like bombing Pearl Harbor was a retaliation for being cut off from their supply. Nothing but another drug war.

The thing is, when someone is crossing the street and a car driver hurries, intimidates or otherwise pressures them to get across the road, that is a manifestation of their oil addiction. The problem is that to deal with their addiction they have to apologize to every person they have wronged or hurt while behind the wheel, Twelve steps...

Sorry my browser was actin' up!

nice topic here....not sure where its' going, but I'll oblige and open myself up to whatever may come...

air cooled (older) Porsche 911

2006 honda mini van (wife)

2007 Buell motorcycle (Harley engine)

1964 Triumph roadster sportscar

As an aside, most educated "motor heads" like myself, I find also have a bicycle addiction also. I have 5 bikes. -wp

But at Fifth and Bouquet, there is pedestrian infrastructure--copiously so. And it was at least 3-4 people who started to cross, all oblivious to me (in all honesty, trying to make a yellow light).

I hit a jaywalking pedestrian a few years ago that popped out between two cars on Forbes Ave by 711 when I was riding on bike.

Was this a manifestation of my Sushi Boat beef fried rice addiction--a manifestation of their 711 addiction?

The problem comes clear mathematically,

20 people drive 1.5 miles each average to go to the store

each person weighs 150 pounds average

each car they drive weighs 2200 pounds average

the bottle of pills weighs .8 pounds

the people weigh 3000 pounds total

the cars weigh 44,000 pounds

the cargo they carry weighs 16 pounds

20 people ride bikes to the store

each person weighs 150 pounds

each bike they ride weighs 29 pounds average

the bottle of pills weighs .8 pounds

the people weigh 3000 pounds total

The bikes weigh 580 pounds total

the cargo they carry is 16 pounds

to drive you have to move 48,016 pounds to carry 16 pounds of cargo

to ride bikes you have to move 3596 pounds to carry 16 pounds of cargo

It is about efficiency, as well.

20 pills on average per bottle that is 320 pills

it takes 150.05 pounds per pill to drive

it takes 11.23 pounds per pill to ride a bike

with that formula

the bike is 13.36 times more efficient than driving

If you had a job doing data entry, or similar employment, and everyone

around you were 13 times faster than you were, you would probably get

fired. Remember this is not percent this is times.

If you do some checking, you would probably find, from zero to fulfillment.

It would be easier to get legally get a prescription for pain medicine, than it would for you to legally get a, license, plates, insurance, a decent running car and a gallon of gas to put in it.

In case you were wondering, automotive gasoline is far more of a controlled substance than, say Oxycontin.

Cars are by far the most prevalent form of class separator that exists in America today.

You measure of efficiency has it's flaws--it is negating a lot of factors. You aren't considering the amount of energy in a lb of fuel vs a lb of food, the cost of food vs the cost of fuel, time (opportunity cost), etc...

Also, the average car weighs in a lot higher than 2200lbs

My Aprilia scooter runs on gasoline but gets 120mpg and has one of the lowest emission direct injection engines used in a production vehicle. All things considered it is a LOT more efficient than a bike.

In addition, relative to most countries, obtaining a license, a car, a registration, insurance, and fuel is remarkably easy in the US.

In case you were wondering, automotive gasoline is far more of a controlled substance than, say Oxycontin.



How do you figure? Gasoline can be bought any time of day, without any type of approval, quality is rarely tested, and most vendors don't even calibrate their pumps.

Cars are by far the most prevalent form of class separator that exists in America today.

What about homes?

Plus, cars are only a class separator if you view them as such.

Yeah, the math was simplified, for discussion's sake. A bike gets aprox 630mpg, depending on bike or rider. Gas has 36,000 calories per gallon. That's 109 Big MAcks, or 300 large bananas,how far could you ride your bike if you ate 300 bananas to do it?

you said, "How do you figure? Gasoline can be bought any time of day, without any type of approval, quality is rarely tested, and most vendors don't even calibrate their pumps."

But I said to legally use it in a car.

Did you know that the chemistry of gasoline varies depending on where it came from, like California wine, or french chardonnay?

From roman chariots, the queens coach, an suv, to some beat down shoes of a homeless person, getting around has always been a class separator. I mentioned it because people commonly do not think of it as such.

The thing that makes the car an insidious form of classist tool is that it is portable. You do not have to see the homes of the wealthy. Though Mercedes suv could pull up to the porch of your Appalachian hilltop cabin. You can not hide from it, deny it, or imitate it.

I am also amazed at bike advocates who are anti car, but ride road bikes. Without the infrastructure of cars all roads would be dirt and rough, requiring a cyclo-cross or mtn bike. Ever seen the roads of the roman empire?

Yeah, the math was simplified, for discussion's sake. A bike gets aprox 630mpg, depending on bike or rider. Gas has 36,000 calories per gallon. That's 109 Big MAcks, or 300 large bananas,how far could you ride your bike if you ate 300 bananas to do it?

you said, "How do you figure? Gasoline can be bought any time of day, without any type of approval, quality is rarely tested, and most vendors don't even calibrate their pumps."

But I said to legally use it in a car.

Did you know that the chemistry of gasoline varies depending on where it came from, like California wine, or french chardonnay?

How long would it take to ride the distance 110 Big Macs of energy? Is that really efficient? Compare the price of 110 Big Macs vs. 1 gal of gasoline....

Using your data entry metaphor, the bike would definitely get fired.

And yes, as an ex-ChemE major, I understand gasoline formula's vary- as does the chemicals in bananas. Since I dropped out of engineering to pursue economics and being a business owner, the dollars are what really stick out. Bikes are great in some situations, but definitely not all.

From roman chariots, the queens coach, an suv, to some beat down shoes of a homeless person, getting around has always been a class separator. I mentioned it because people commonly do not think of it as such.

The thing that makes the car an insidious form of classist tool is that it is portable. You do not have to see the homes of the wealthy. Though Mercedes suv could pull up to the porch of your Appalachian hilltop cabin. You can not hide from it, deny it, or imitate it.

If you see it as a class separator, it is. If you don't acknowledge it as such, it isn't.

Personally, I think wage is a much larger a class separator than an automobile.

Wage is the hollow acknowledgment of work being done.

A car is a status item, what you buy with it, the fulfillment is the shiny pearl of the class system.

Think of rickshaws.

Do you know how much money the Get Go gas station chain makes in one day? who gets that money? The dealer right? It trickles down to the maker, unless the maker is also the dealer, of oil, and we live in a nation that uses 1/4 of all of the worlds oil.

Every day, rain or shine over and over again, 365 1/4 days per year.

As an aside, most educated "motor heads" like myself, I find also have a bicycle addiction also. I have 5 bikes.

My boyfriend fits this statement to a T. Maybe not the 5 bikes part, but the general idea...yes.

how far could you ride your bike if you ate 300 bananas to do it?

How much fuel was used to get you those 300 bananas?

Unless, of course, they came by row boat.

It is out of site out of mind, not out of site out of existence.

People are sitting rocking forward and backwards, fingers in their ears, mumbling there is no place like oil, and unlimited reserves, and not my problem...

That is ok though, I do not advocate for no cars just responsible use, sort of like some beer makers do.

http://z.about.com/d/history1900s/1/0/O/T/wwiip44.jpg

and

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/2005/veday/poster_gallery/images/WWII%20Ride%20With%20Hitler.jpg

I am also amazed at bike advocates who are anti car, but ride road bikes. Without the infrastructure of cars all roads would be dirt and rough, requiring a cyclo-cross or mtn bike

This is baffling. When a person doesn't like cars, they should "make believe" the roads aren't there? Why?

And, historically you are wrong - there were good roads for cars because of bicycle advocates, not the reverse.

Wage is the hollow acknowledgment of work being done. A car is a status item, what you buy with it, the fulfillment is the shiny pearl of the class system.

You think that society looks more at the car you drive than the wage you make when they consider the subject of class?

What I am really trying to say is, I think your perspective is really skewed. Even in your math, there are so many factors you are just ignoring.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm glad to see you take a strong stance on your views, but a lot of what you claim as fact is just plain deceiving.

ndromb, A car is totally a status item, and yeah, society looks more at the car (as an indicator of wealth, natch) than the wage, because the one is public and the other isn't.

ditto mick above.

Just to add utterly irrelevant trivia: Roman roads were actually very, very good (good enough that some are still passable today...). Road bikes would be perfectly adequate for most of them, although something with fat and cushy tires would probably be more comfortable.

Of course, Roman roads were good for one primary reason; good roads let the Roman army rapidly march anywhere in the Empire to quell rebellion or "grow their bottom line through a policy of aggressive property acquisition and re-allocation".

This message has been brought to you by the good folks at The Institute For Dubious Historical Pedantry. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

What a wonderful collection of non sequiturs! Thanks for the amusement!

lalalala, hollow to my ears.

people always look at my shoes, then they judge me.

What kind of shoes do you have ?

"How long would it take to ride the distance 110 Big Macs of energy? Is that really efficient? Compare the price of 110 Big Macs vs. 1 gal of gasoline...."

ndromb-

Efficiency is not calculated in price...

That is the big marketing scam of the oil companies.

See, they get you to calculate price per gallon, and ignore the total costs.

If you do the math, factoring in tags, titles, price of car, maintenance, insurance, price of fuel, sociological costs, health costs, and environmental costs, you have a loosing situation.

and ndromb, the true efficiency of an internal combustion engine is not miles per gallon, but, gallons per mile. GPM is very accurate, and can not be manipulated by auto makers, like gpm can.

You can figure out your gpm for your scooter. Start with an empty tank, put 1-2 liters of fuel in it, ride 100 miles filling up and keeping track of refilling, divide... You will get an accurate number possibly taken to the hundredth place.

There is a hpm calculator here:

http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/news/mpg/gpm/calculator.html

And more info here:

http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/news/mpg/gpm/calculator.html

See, when there were few refueling stations, and they were sometimes very far from each other, you needed to know how far you could go on a tank of fuel, so that you could make it to the next station. Thus the Miles Per Gallon system. This system is also a very loose way of computing fuel efficiency. This is why the auto makers still love it, they can report 50mpg and, if you drove it at maximum efficiency under perfect conditions, yes you can get 50mpg.

yes on the externalities. no on the math. mpg = 1/gpm. You can manipulate each to exactly the same degree as you can manipulate the other.

Comparing the efficiencies of gas to food is an exercise in the absurd. Its apples to oranges, no pun intended. I might be begging the obvious here but, don't you have to eat food regardless of whether you bike or not? I wouldn't think that the members here eat that much more than an automobile commuter.

Its not like you can drive to work and say 'Well, I drove today so I don't have to eat today'. If you bike, your car will consume NO gas.

Figured I'd chime in

I've never understood why people are so hot on GPM. Fuzzy math.

The thing is, gpm is more accurate.

(it should be lpk)

But the idea of food vs fuel is to establish the concept of efficiency. Since your bike does not run on gas, this is a simple way of establishing a comparison.

i've never seen a better time to post this image:

basically a once in a lifetime opportunity

Back to the original topic a bit - and to add a little more...

I own bikes, I own cars and a motorcycle. I also enjoy hiking - usually in the neighborhood of 25-30 miles per day on a 2-3 day hike. I also enjoy long distance running - 10 to 20 mile runs.

My point here - cars, bikes, walking, running - for me (and I think most people) - all are RECREATION FOR ENJOYMENT PURPOSES that occassionally may serve a more utilitarian need (ie - get to work, haul something, get somewhere when a primary mode of transport (car or bike) is not usable/feasible).

this webboard is obviously focused to an extreme niche - there are a lot of "hardcore cyclists" on here. So, the value of this ongoing debate on this thread is somewhat limited because of the audience contributing to it.

try to publish this on a Post Gazette forum and see what kind of remarks we gain.. wp

I hate to be contrarian but there is nothing about GPM that is more "accurate". You will get a higher GPM driving in the city than you will on the highway, generally speaking, and the numbers an auto company publishes would still be based on the same tests they use for MPG.

I could maybe agree that GPM better represents the cost of driving to the consumer, and is a better tool for selecting a car based on efficiency. But this simply has nothing to do with accuracy.

to add to the growing strangeness of this discussion: The Dutch Take Aim at Driving

*ducks back out of the crossfire*

I kind of liked the original line of this thread re: what cars do people drive. Just sayin'.

My hope would be that in my lifetime I could reliably travel to towns such as my hometown (~50,000 people along a main thoroughfare) via public transportation, and therefore have little to no need to own a vehicle.

greenbike you are right...

I kind of liked the original line of this thread re: what cars do people drive. Just sayin'.

I do not drive ( 10 years oil free), wife drives a mercury villager.

I am also amazed at bike advocates who are anti car, but ride road bikes. Without the infrastructure of cars all roads would be dirt and rough, requiring a cyclo-cross or mtn bike

The Good Roads Movement was started by cyclists.

PS: The tires on your bicycle and any plastic parts are made of oil. In addition, any purchased consumer goods (including food) were transported, probably using oil. No one's oil free in our economy.

Perhaps a better statistic would be the number of times you leave the house in a week, as the denominator, and for a numerator, the number of times you use anything but your car to get you from Point A to Point B. Express as a decimal. The closer to 1.00, the better.

Your typical car-entrapped suburbanite is going to be close to zero. A few people on this board will be at or approaching 1.00. The key is to increase that number for everyone, averaged over a rolling last-three-weeks basis.

Thus, whether you're driving a 12mpg land yacht or a 40mpg econobox, being dependent on a car is a matter of UNinformed choice.